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#63069 - 09/07/02 07:07 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Toot your own horn George, you deserve it man !

That's a great story, a certain kind of justice. Cruising for porn and finding the answer.

Glad you're making it George
Lloydy \:D

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63070 - 09/07/02 11:10 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Eddie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/31/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
AMiNUTS,
George has a good point about things getting better then ever before...once the acting out is over. I know the frame of mind that your husband is in...if he's acting out....he can't stop or think of your feelings! He just has to hit some kind of wall to be able to stop...Hope he does soon before you break up!!! Getting caught red-handed could stop him...it did for me!

Eddie


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#63071 - 09/09/02 09:20 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
George,

It certainly sounds like fate. You were meant to find that site and heal, right then and there. You were where you were suppose to be to find truth. Good for you!

You said something that really hit home.

you wrote:
If I go more than two days I start to feel antsy. My wife is happy & enjoys it. It just goes to show you that acting out is not about sex or what your wife is not giving you, its about control.

The control issue is very true. I always feel like he is always trying to be in control OF ME. But I am not a person who can be controlled because above all else I value autonomy. I can't give into sex simply because he needs (wants) it. I did that for years and ended up feeling quite used, since I really didn't want to be having sex with him. Something just didn't feel right. It is and was something I just couldn't put my finger on. Then after discovering the porn stuff, I realized he would look at porn late at night and come to me all hot and heavy. He wasn't having sex with me, he was simply *fu#$ing" them. That to me is unacceptable. But also, I think he wants to control me. It almost feels like he plays the role of the abuser (without abusing me). His needs are the MOST important, and I should satisfy them, regardless of whether I want sex or not. I just can't do that anymore. I have layed there thinking to myself, this sucks, I don't want to be here, but I just wanted his attitude to stop, so I gave him sex.(yuck)

I am happy for you that you can say things are great for you and your wife. I don't know that I'll ever speak those words. He knows that I am on the fence as far as staying married goes. Unfortunately, he really doesn't understand the impact that he has on the marriage. He claims to be committed and wouldn't ever leave, but doesn't recognize that his aloofness, inability to make a promise (about much of anything), and general slippery attitide, does not make for a good relationship. Its been 15 years of marriage and I would have to say pretty darn unhappy for more than 10 years.

Eddie - I think he justifies any behavior (whether he is acting out or not) as "normal." He thinks that the porn is normal, healthy behavior. (compared to looking at Playboy). It is VERY hard to not take things personal when they affect me quite personally. ...that he can't think of my feelings...I know that. Get caught red handed....he is too careful for that. He has always cleared his tracks. Reminds me of when we were teenagers in his parents house when they weren't home. He would pay attention to the tiniest details to clear the tracks, like leave the toilet paper role just as it was before going to the bathroom. (he wasn't even suppose to have a key to the house). I wouln't even think of stuff like that nor would I think that anyone else would pay attention to stuff like that. He has lived this way for more than 20 years and he is darn good at it.

Well, this probably got long. And George its never too late to respond. Thanks.

AMiNUTS


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#63072 - 09/09/02 07:02 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
AMiNUTS
It looks like make you're mind up time, I've read your other post as well.
We all deserve a decent life and one persons abuse doesn't mean they have a right to dictate another persons life.

We are selfish, and I've often said to others "be selfish, but not at the expense of others", my version of being selfish is to make time for myself. To say to others, "sorry, but this time is my time. I'll deal with you after this"
And it seems to work, people say ok and I deal with them later.

Recovery is hard, and harder for a partner. And it's up to us to lighten our partners loads.
Even if at the time we are preoccupied with ourselves, we need to think of others.

But ultimately we must all think of ourselves, we owe that to ourselves. And if that's being selfish at the expense of others, then that's a choice we must face.
Not a light one

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63073 - 09/09/02 10:25 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
orodo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 735
Loc: Imladris, The Safe Haven of Ar...
Dear Aminuts:

I just wanted to say this about me, wife, and my behavior. I've wanted to join a gym too, but the wife would never let me. She does not trust me. I have been monogamous in body with my wife since 1987. The last time I tried to make a guy, she was with me, and I was trying to force a threesome. She told me at that point I needed to make a choice...her or guys. Somehow I realized that I truly did love her enough to repress my sexual attraction to me. I've rarely told her about what is going on in my head. Instead I would choose to run off, and smoke cigarettes and cigars. The excuse was that I was not allowed to smoke in the house or kids, so off I went. Then I quit smoking for a while, and the story was, "we need this at the store or we need that over there." Anything to get my sorry ass out of the house away from her and the kids. And the store was a bad place for me to be, cuz all I would do is check every "body" out. Never touched, but shit I look too much. Can't help myself. Trust by my wife has been very important to me, and I can never seem to earn it, maybe I don't deserve it, maybe I'll never have it. So instead I run around paranoid that she'll leave me if she ever catches me with a male or female friend. So I have only online friends, here at NOMSV, and even then, she tells me to stay the hell outta here, that this isn't helpful, and she tells me that I must be trying to make the big hook up while I'm here. Nothing could be further from the truth. Trust, I need it, crave it, have earned it, don't ever get it, like alot of other things in life. Be well stay well.

_________________________
It is better to be Dragon Master than Dragon Slayer. Some Dragons are meant to be mastered, others meant to be slain. Odin, Great Spirit, God, grant me the wisdom to know the difference. "May the Valar guide and bless you on your path under the sky"

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#63074 - 09/10/02 08:27 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
George Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 120
Loc: NY metro
AmINuts,

When you describe your husband, I see myself & my old behaviors. I too was a tyrant thinking only of my needs, using my wife for sex with someone else on my mind.

As me & the Mrs' talked the other night, we both agreed that had the marriage broken up, we both would've been miserable. Her to lead a solitary life, and me thinking that I would've gone gay. I know that I'd be sooo messed up continuing the abuse cycle, if not dead by now. She said that She would of always felt guilty for leaving. I tell you this because we both shudder to know how close we came to total destruction.

My wife never knew the root of my problem (sexual abuse), although there were plenty of other childhood issues to cover for it. I think that you are so far ahead knowing the root cause than my wife was. True, when I told her, I was already changed & still changing. It sounds like your husband is stuck in nuetral. I know you can't force healing on him, kind of like you can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. Maybe if you put some tools to heal right under his nose he'd take a sip.

Have you showed him this website? Gotten any of the books & tapes for him to check out? The annoniminity of the website makes it the easiest way of opening up, even easier than sitting in a therapist office. Just reading about others journies, he'll recognise himself & learn *alot* about his behaviors (like we all do). Maybe you could print out stuff from here that he'd recognise as his own issues as well.
Something has got to get him going again. I'm sure he's not happy with himself the way things are either.

I hate knowing that there are so many guys & their wives out there struggling because of what some evil bastard did to them as kids. And yet some people (scholarly types in liberal institutions) preach that *consentual* sex between kids and adults is ok, if not benificial to the child... Makes my blood boil!

Got to go cool off now.

~George~

*** If you haven't already read the addition to my first post in this thread, go back and read it. I added to it. I confessed to the acting out after we were married!


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#63075 - 09/10/02 11:38 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
Lloyd, Orondo and George,

Thanks for the replies. As far as showing him this sight, he is not at all open to the fact the he needs help of has any problems. When the issue surfaced several years ago, he read "abused boys" and did some work suggested in the book for a couple of weeks. He says he dealt with it and its over. He does not want to live with the label victim, as he puts it. I have thought of showing him the sight especially when I first came here, but then I felt like I wanted to learn as much as I could first from all of you wonderful folks. I have been coming here for a few months and have learned to recognize characteristic behaviors that you all share and to try not to take it personally. But again, he thinks he doesn't have a problem. Maybe by admitting it, he would feel like a victim or something.

Lloyd - I do try real hard to take care of myself, but I find it extremely stressful when the environment in the home is hitting the rocks (that is where we are right now). I didn't sleep a wink last night and we have a session tonight. I am really feeling the stress.

Orondo - the trust issue is huge. I just don't trust him at all. I have never caught him with other people, although I suspected things were going on. But I don't know what came first, I suspected or he told me about the SA. If he told me first, did that make me suscpicious (unrightfully)? I just don't know. I have come to realize that his disclosure has really caused my to question things more and I wonder if that is unfair. But then again, things that just didn't seam right before the disclosure only left me feeling uneasy, but not suscpicious. I do not like living in the land of suscpicion. It makes me feel very codependent and that is not where I want to be either.

George - the tyrant behavior...he wouldn't see it that way. He would say (and has) that a normal healthy marriage consists of sexual relations on a regular basis. Yup, it sure does, I agree. But something just doesn't feel right. His arguement, well if we were having sex and he was having his needs met, then there wouldn't be a problem from his perspective. I certainly understand that he believes that to be true and it could be considered true in a health, intact marriage, but I don't think that is what we have. I have my issues for sure (grew up in an alcoholic home with very tyrannical father who treated (and still does) my mother like shit). Anyway, as for the site or books...he is simply not open. He doesn't even know that I have been here. This has been my own informational gathering and learning (which has been very fruitful).

I will go check out your other post in the thread.

Thanks guys! I really appreciate your insight.

AMiNUTS


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#63076 - 09/10/02 12:46 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
AMiNUTS
Georges post here mirrors my experience so closely, as do so many others. We really do have a lot in common, and coming here we have a huge wealth of experience and knowledge.

You are making the effort to learn and understand the problems, and in doing so have come to realise that recovery is possible. My problems aren't over and finished with by any means, but I know how to live and deal with them with a great deal of success.
But from what you say your husband thinks he's "cured" by reading a book and a few weeks work, which I personaly would say is bullshit, it can't be done.
My guess is that he's frightened of what his future might hold if he digs deeper, denial is the best comfort blanket I know of.
And while he's still in the limbo of accepting he was abused but denying that it's causing problems, he's going to be confused and angry.
where's the anger going to be directed ? at anyone who comes along ( you ) who tells him that there is something wrong, but there is also something that can be done to ease it.
He doesn't want to know, because he's done all the work already !!

You can't do it for him, that's the very sad truth as I see it. Any marriage needs the full cooperation and hard work of both partners, throw in some crisis and it's even more important.
You seem to be doing all the hard work AMiNUTS.

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63077 - 09/10/02 01:30 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
searching Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 21
AMiNUTS,

I won't go into too much detail around how some of the denial issues affected my marriage--but they definitely did. There was an early period of therapy, followed by "Okay, I've taken care of that, I'm fine now."

And then he acted out. That was the point at which everything really blew up--he came to me and confessed what he had done.

What I realized at that point was that it had to STOP BEING JUST ABOUT HIS DECISIONS. It had to start being about my decisions, too. I had to set boundaries for what I would or would not accept in the context of our marriage. I also had to decide what he would have to do, in terms of getting help, for me to be willing to stay in the marriage.

I have to note something really, really important here. I was seeing a therapist at the time, and she helped me to establish boundaries and an ultimatum. But the only way to get to that place was to recognize that I had to be willing to leave the marriage if he was unwilling to do what I felt was necessary. (By the way, I have two small children, so this was no easy decision.)

So, I wasn't saying to him, "You have to do these things because I say so." I was saying, "This is what I've decided I need in order to stay in this marriage and try to make it work." The choice of whether to do these things or not was his. He didn't have to do them--he only had to decide if he was willing to do what it took for me to stay.

What I asked of him was as follows:
1. He would have to get immediate help, both in a group program for sexual addicts and in continued therapy.
2. He would have to promise that he would not act out again, and I would be allowed to ask about this as needed to reassure myself that he was living up to his end of the deal.

The wonderful thing was that he was very willing to do what was needed. He knew he had crossed a line and was at risk of losing all that he had.

The other very important thing was to continue to focus on my own healing and growing--to understand that we'd reached this point in our marriage together. That's a tough thing to face--realizing that you may be an enabler or in serious denial. I spent so much time letting my boundaries slip that I really didn't even know where they were anymore, until I got help. I let myself be yelled at, bullied, emotionally abused, and cheated on. I'm proud to say that I work very hard not to do that anymore, and most of the time I succeed.

I completely understand how desperate you feel right now. Part of the desperation is coming from the sense of having no solid idea of what to do next, and realizing that you have no power. You need to, and deserve to, have equal power in your marriage. You will never have it until you are willing to let it (the marriage) go.

Be strong, and know that others here (including me) understand and care very much about you.

Lynda


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#63078 - 09/10/02 02:16 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
Dear Lloyd and Searching,

I really appreciate your advice. And I thoroughly understand my options. I too have been in therpay and while I am finishing school this year, we have discussed that it simply may not be the best time to leave (if I choose to do that). And yes, I have children too.

Lloyd - funny thing is he thinks he is working on communication skills in therapy , and he is and he has come a long way for sure. What seems to be happening is that it is not fixing the problem. Good communication is very important, but being able to communicate and believing that the SA is NOT the problem makes it hard for him to see anything other than he IS working on the relationship. I can understand that. HE truly believes that there is no problem relating to the SA. What the hell can anyone do about that? Nothing!

Lynda - My H would NEVER confess if he acted out. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. He would take it to the grave. I know that for sure. When I caught him using porn, he wouldn't admit it. Even in the face of evidence. A long time after he said, "well, I knew you knew and you knew I knew you knew." Can you believe that. That is as close to an admission as I will ever come. I INSISTED he go to therapy alone. Unfortunately, I have no ultamatum for that other than not engaging in a relationship. I am not holding the relationship hostage or anything, it just does NOT feel right and I cannot pretend everything is happy or normal. SOMETHING isn't right. And I cannot pretend that it is. THat is where I am. If I do not have proof of anything, then I could simply look like a paranoid fool. What really bothers me, is if nothing is going on then I am persecuting him for the SA that was not his fault. On the other hand, if he is playing me the fool for this long in therapy, then I don't know if I could ever forgive him if I got any proof. I suppose that would be the ultimate hitting bottom, because I would leave.

And thanks, there is alot of care and support here. Reading stuff here makes me feel that I AMnotNUTS and that there is really something going on outside of my own reality, I just can't proove it.

Thanks again,
AMiNUTS


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