Newest Members
JohnWC, KKumar, J44, Anura, reynel5
12420 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
biggbill70 (44), CP4 (24), EddieMi (46), EddieT (46), hemi1024 (54), Kage (70), kdj_74 (40), Knightswhitehart (49), otlhouston (47), TX_Space (47), VirtualBman (50)
Who's Online
1 registered (petercorbett), 33 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12420 Members
74 Forums
63793 Topics
445487 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#63059 - 08/03/02 12:10 AM AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
babs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/01
Posts: 59
Loc: Cub Hill, MD
AMiNUTS,

I may just be projecting my own paranoid feelings onto your situation, but since I already have a reputation for speaking my mind...hear goes.

Your statement...

Quote:
A 40 year old man should not dive in at an 18 year old's speed. (Part of me wonders if there is other motivation involved......but I will try to not get patanoid.) But since he is generally an unmotivated person all around, this is a good thing...right? Maybe he needs space too. I have worked out for years on my own and I love the time to myseld in a healthy environment. Maybe he can get somnething more out of it than the obvious.
just triggered my suspicious side. Considering everything that you have said about your husband's level of DENIAL about the impact of the SA and his obsession with PORNOGRAPHY I would be paranoid if I were you. But probably NOT the way you are thinking !!

One of the most destructive aspects of SA on males seems to me to be the resulting confused sexuality. ACTING OUT is rampant. ADDICTION to sex is almost universal. SAME SEX attractions, although unwanted, are commonplace. Being around alot of naked men is not the "safest place" for an male SA survivor to be.

As I reread your post (several times) it is apparent to me that you seem to think all of this to TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE. Needs his space to do what?? Work on his recovery??? Maybe he can get somnething more out of it than the obvious ??? Time to himself in an UNhealthy environment..

Maybe the real survivors like Eddie & Lloydy will tell you I'm full of crap!! In the long run you have to trust your own feelings and your own husband.

Hope the GYM is a good thing,

Babs


Top
#63060 - 08/03/02 07:38 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
hi girls,
you are putting some interesting and VERY thought provoking stuff on this site, and I for one love it. It's the view from across the kitchen table that I only get one opinion of normally, so your views make a healthy balance, and I need that.

Motivation...there's good topic, I have been so unmotivated for so long I always choose the easy way out, I pay someone to mow my grass and do the gardening !! and it's not because I can afford it.
Everyday things are so hard, and once the cycle of being unmotivated starts it becomes the norm. My employer, a huge mulinational, has actually slowed us down to the point I might do 2 hours work a day, can you imagine the boredom ? and it seeps into the body- I come home unmotivated, and I'm that way inclined because of the SA... I'm bone idle. The reason I work hard at my recovery is that I started a while back and I can just maintain the effort. But all around me here is paperwork and stuff that needs attention.
The worst thing is that it rubs off onto partners, and we've talked about this tonight, we've both got into this lazy groove. So we've made a pact to kick arse- each others !

Babs, what you say about being in contact with other naked men in somewhere like a gym didn't have any effect on me, I showered at work with the guys for years and it wasn't the slightest problem. It didn't even make my fantasies.
But since starting recovery I have stopped for some reason, maybe heightened awareness- maybe the beer gut..
The acting out is definatly the most destructive thing, for us it's the most important thing in our lives, it's irrational, unstoppable, insane, and inevitable.
If you want an example of the sheer power of the urge to fulfill our fantasies, I've had sex with a strange man in the most public of pl

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#63061 - 08/03/02 07:38 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
hi girls,
you are putting some interesting and VERY thought provoking stuff on this site, and I for one love it. It's the view from across the kitchen table that I only get one opinion of normally, so your views make a healthy balance, and I need that.

Motivation...there's good topic, I have been so unmotivated for so long I always choose the easy way out, I pay someone to mow my grass and do the gardening !! and it's not because I can afford it.
Everyday things are so hard, and once the cycle of being unmotivated starts it becomes the norm. My employer, a huge mulinational, has actually slowed us down to the point I might do 2 hours work a day, can you imagine the boredom ? and it seeps into the body- I come home unmotivated, and I'm that way inclined because of the SA... I'm bone idle. The reason I work hard at my recovery is that I started a while back and I can just maintain the effort, and see the results. But all around me here is paperwork and stuff that needs attention.
The worst thing is that it rubs off onto partners, and we've talked about this tonight, we've both got into this lazy groove. So we've made a pact to kick arse- each others !

Babs, what you say about being in contact with other naked men in somewhere like a gym didn't have any effect on me, I showered at work with the guys for years and it wasn't the slightest problem. It didn't even make my fantasies.
But since starting recovery I have stopped for some reason, maybe heightened awareness- maybe the beer gut..
But maybe AMiNUTS should be a bit wary of his motivation, we're well known sneaky, devious characters and a bit of discreet suspicion could be healthy, especially if he isn't opening up any yet. But it's a fine line between keeping an eye open and creating an air of suspicion, difficult that one.
The acting out is definatly the most destructive thing, for us it's the most important thing in our lives, it's irrational, unstoppable, insane, and inevitable. And if that sounds like an easy excuse for our behaviour it isn't, I just can't imagine any rational person taking the risks of acting out. People do that stuff yes, but rational people use protection, have sex with someone they generally know something about ( name at least !! ) not with the first person who waves his dick at you in a toilet, that's irrational....
If you want an example of the sheer power of the urge to fulfill our fantasies, I've had sex with a strange man in the most public of places imaginable, if someone had just walked around a corner on a weekday afternoon in a busy town there we were. That's the level of desparation I was capable of winding myself up to. Complete oblivion brought on by DAYS of premeditation. It scares the crap out of me know...What this level of behavior does to partners is beyond my comprehension, Sugar ( her nickname ) has tried to tell me but it's hard for her to find words to describe it, although she does not class it as being unfaithful, another woman and I'd be out on my arse. But the confusion must be horrible.
But it was sex addiction at the time, I was "doing it myself" many times a day, thinking about it non stop and spending hours looking at internet porn. It consumed me. Totally OCD, and totally out of character.

Giving it up, telling my therapist was slow and hard, telling my wife was worse. But we developed a little ritual. I hate talking about it in the house, this is my sanctuary and I don't want it here. So after therapy we would go to a pub for something to eat and a few beers. There we would talk. I got some funny looks as I cried in my beer, but what the hell- we talked and talked. It's something we still do. Once a week we go for an Indian meal at a place with small booths, they know us well now and give us a corner one. Perhaps the crying puts the other customers off ?? ;\) Tonight we've sat for 3 hours, eating, drinking and talking. It works for us, the set time, not cast in stone, but a time we relax and feel comfortable, a bottle of St Emilliion loosens my tongue. We expect to talk then so we have a chance to think about what we want or need to say.
I guess it's the same as having a regular therapy appointment.

Another long ramble, sorry...

Be good
Lloydy \:\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#63062 - 08/03/02 09:10 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Eddie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/31/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
WOW,
Now that's some heavy stuff!!!!!!!...and I would say that it's all so very true! "Any other woman and my ass would be out the door"...very true here with "Boo Boo"...nick name...not from Yogi Bear...just a very old time term of endearment...used by my mother and my mother's mother. I know all about how strong the need to Act Out is and how strong "it" is...I thought of me going to a gym and why I was there and came up with some hard Acting Out...no other reason for me to be there. How about the guy who goes 3 times a week and doesn't lose weight????...gets home and placates his Acting Out desires by eating??? Looking at all those naked men THAT MUCH has to do something...in the true order of things with SA Males...ACTING OUT!!! Predators are there too... waiting to find someone who is easy..Are SA Males easy????? DO BEARS etc....Maybe that guy wants reinactment??? Babs will not let me join a gym....THANK THE GODS !!!!

Eddie


Top
#63063 - 08/04/02 06:20 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Eddie
Us "actors" have a lot in common, I'm positive of it. And I've just read a small bit in the paper today about a 17 year old girl who was a tearaway, vandalism and stealing kind of stuff. she was a pretty and clever girl but she had no control over her behaviour. She was also a victim of SA. The behaviour was different but the urge sounded identical.

It's odd that seeing other men naked didn't have any effect on me, maybe it was because it was men I knew and liked. Certainly gay porn was my favourite.. odd ?
But my fixation was the sex acts and the humiliation. The looks, age, size or race of the other guy never entered my fantasy. And I certainly didn't wast time creating fantasies around gyms etc, that meant creating a plot !!
To hell with that, into a toilet, show me a dick and I'm on it !!

I'm a simple soul...... \:D \:D

Lloydy ;\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#63064 - 08/04/02 10:09 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Eddie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/31/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Lloydy,
I would send you one of those check your profile things but seems like being open is the way to go in order to help the others!!!
You and I stopped acting out with other men...I know how I did it and can stay away from doing it...read my old posts...but how in the hell did you do it and how do you stay away from it now???????????????????

Eddie


Top
#63065 - 08/05/02 10:03 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
Hi All,

Shit! After reading all that I am now more paranoid than ever. Thanks for your honesty. It didn't occur to me that my paranoia should come from the gym, but instead who outside of the gym does he want to look good for. I actually thought showering there before work was a good breakthrough since he would NEVER have done that in the past...he would avoid that situation like the plague.

We went to the gym together on Saturday and all was well (at least I think) until we got home. I had some homework to do and he seem to feel set on the back burner in a oh, poor me state. That seem to set off the entire weekend with him being extremely aloof...which I HATE when he is that way. It pushes me off further. Is he trying to distance me for self protection or is he trying to get me to feel sorry for him? I just know I get annoyed with it.

The gym. Is it a good thing? Well...I just don't know.

You know I always wondered lots of different things about his behaviors and my feeling distrustful having only my intuition to go on. Unfortunately, as Soccer and I have in common, being raised in an alcoholic environment creates serious trust issues and wondering if I am paranoid or my intuition is correct always remains a question. This thread has my head spinning. Since his aloofness is just how he behaved when he was looking at porn....well who knows what he is doing. \:\(

Thanks for the insight.


Top
#63066 - 08/05/02 09:20 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Eddie
I agree totally, keep it open. I'm heading towards a stage where I don't give a shit anymore, but I suppose I do in some ways.
I have actually said things on this site that I didn't in therapy, so I'm still getting it out of my system, and if it helps soeone else then thats excellent.

I've read a load of your old posts, and others, and it's a mine of good stuff. I hope they're archiving it somewhere.

It was hard work that stopped me acting out, nothing but HARD WORK. And it aint ended yet.
Mostly inside my head, with a bit of practical stuff as well. In my head I learned the great truism of recovery "a secret shared is no longer a secret"
That was the turning point, initially disclosing my abuse and starting therapy was the first secret out of the bag. But the secret about acting out took longer, and actually became disclosed when I left my writing on the computer accidentally and Sugar saw it.
Wow, was that a hard couple of days ??? But since her knowledge and acceptance the main support of my fantasy / acting out has collapsed. It's no longer secret, and that was important to me. It was a sense of feeling different and special because I was the tough guy who could do as I pleased. It was all driven by my abuse, but it took on a life of its own as I got deeper into it, the secret was bolstered by risk, and I ended up so dangerous to myself and those I love that getting caught was surely just a matter of time.
So losing the secret has dispelled a great part of it's appeal. I really think that my days of major acting out are gone now, reality kicks in because I can't get so consumed in the unstoppable urge any more. I don't think I could if I tried now.

But the fantasy is still there, and it's the same one- stranger + blow job- simple. And that's hard to shift, so hard. But again I don't keep it a secret, I tell Sugar if I'm having a hard time, and it goes. Maybe not completely, but it's better. If I can stop it coming at all then that would be something, but maybe I ask too much.....
It's the same thing when I'm going to have a risky period of being alone, she asks if I'm going to be ok, gives me a kiss and smile before reminding e to phone her if I'm having a hard time. She's not on my back and checking me out at all, just reminding me that a simple call on our mobiles will ease my pain, which it does. She trusts me to be alone again, because I do phone her sometimes. I'm in tears fighting it. She knows I try as hard as I can, I HAVE to return that level of trust and love.
I think a full acting out would be too much to bear now, I just can't imagine the circumstances where it could happen any more, although the fantasy tells me different, but I recognise that for what it is. My moments of madness are far outnumbered by my moments of clarity now.

The other practical thing is I force myself to do something in the high risk times. I get home maybe 2 hours earlier, and at my worst point 4 / 5 years ago I had this time planned for acting out, along with every other opportunity. I have so many interests, but I ignored them totally at this time, now I plan to come home - work on the jeep, do the offroad club newsletter, do jobs on the house, go for a walk with my camera. It's bloody hard work to do it, and the worst it gets now is masturbating to the fantasy- no real crime I know, but if it's at the expense of making love with Sugar, which it is, then the guilt is deep.
Doing something provides so many different things, at the start it's a distraction, and one you can use to prove to others that you have been doing something. I still show Sugar the new muffler brackets I weld to the jeep (as if she cares !!! ;\) ) but it proved it to me which is more important. And any kind of hobby from stamp collecting to me building off roaders from the ground up gives you a sense of satisfaction and achievement, something we need and don't always get from our recovery process which at times seems to defeat us. So if we can get a sense of doing good somewhere else we begin to recognise it again.
It's normal everyday stuff Eddie, and it leads us back towards as normal and everyday life as we can achieve.

Lloydy \:\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#63067 - 08/05/02 10:59 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Eddie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/31/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Lloydy,
Thanks for your story of stopping the acting out thing...wouldn't feel bad if I were you about the masturbating or beat up on yourself for leaving Sugar out of the sex act...bet you need sex a lot more than she does...most SA Males do...if she had to take all of it all the time...she would wear out and get "brain fry"!!! Your story sounds a lot like mine except I want to be fucked...it's very hard work to stop acting it out! But, I have the one thing that you don't...I still can act it out by having Boo Boo FIST me!!!! My therapist says that's it good for me...who knows..I just can't stop!

AMiNUTS,
Sounds like you need Magnum PI...or any PI to find out what he is doing...maybe get help from a friend...check his PC...history and cookies...maybe he didn'd delete...a lot of SA Males when acting out will be in a strange state of mind..not thinking too good...check him out before you come to any hard conclusions!...Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eddie


Top
#63068 - 09/07/02 05:46 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
George Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 120
Loc: NY metro
Hi Folks,

I know this is a late reply, better late than never.

Gyms... I too joined a gym ten years back, not to get in shape but get an eye full. Sure, I love the pool, hot tub & steam room, I wish I had them in my house. I never hooked up with anybody at the gym, although I supposed it would be easy enough to figure out who would go for it. There was always a few in the locker room displaying themselve alot longer than needed to be. I did use it all for fantisy though.

But in a small way I felt more manly being there. I too hated undressing infront of other people in locker rooms, even when it was just down to underware in school gym class. So for me to be able to do a lightning fast naked change was a lift to my ego.

Acting out... I started before the abuse ended at 12, it continued on till our fifth year of marriage. I then went for five years of just masterbating to gay porn. Five years ago I had a bad buisness fold, that sent me back into acting out with others. four times it happened. Four years ago it all ended. We're married over 12 years now, 4 years happily \:\)

How did all the porn, masterbation & acting out end??? It was an act of God, plain and simple. 1/5/99, it was like the blinders that I wore for so long were ripped off me that day. It was all shut off in me like someone flpped a switch. That day I had been trolling for gay porn on the net when from link to link when I ended up at a survivors own personal site. I read the story at first expecting to get off, I got blindsided by truth instead. It hit me like a ton of bricks, it sounded like he wrote my story. It unleashed such a wave of emotion & tears. I prayed like I never prayed before for forgivness & strength to end all the evil stuff. I soon learned how just about all of it had to do with control. I havn't slipped once. I'm not tooting my own horn, it was truly a mirical, I know I couldn't do it on my own.

Marrital relations... All along we had a busy sex life, still do. 3X a week or more. If I go more than two days I start to feel antsy. My wife is happy & enjoys it. It just goes to show you that acting out is not about sex or what your wife is not giving you, its about control.

The night I finally told me wife about the abuse, two months after I started dealing with it. She told me that she was surprised to still be with me, for she had been planing on leaving me. She had always remarked about "the wall". I thought that she would just get over it...she did and her next step was out the door, had I not spoken up. We talked a looong time that night, it answered so many questions in her mind. I never told her about the acting out *after* we were married, I figuered that I'd spare her the pain of knowing for sure. I know she has an idea though.

Funny thing, things weren't great before I told her, but they were *fair* (in my mind). I mean we still were having sex and all. I only saw what I wanted to see, I didn't see her misery and the pain that I inflicted. I started believing my own facade. Boy, were my eyes opened that da too.

Things now are great, after twelve years of marriage we had our first child, a boy five months ago. I named him after myself, not as an ego thing (although everyone else thinks that). It was so that George XXXXXX would have another chance at growing up normal. My wife gets it. For the first time I know what real love from the start is, its just perfect.

Just thought I'd share.

~George~

************************************************************************************* NEWS FLASH ****************

After reading & adding to this thread the other day, I was left wondering if I should check with my wife to see if she feels things are as great as *I* think think they are. In the past I've been known to be wrong about the state of our marriage, so just to be sure... Mostly about the amount of sex & if she sees it as a burdan or chore.

She said no, that she loves it & everything *is* indeed great. Ok, good start but theres more...

this discussion led to much deeper talk about us & past stuff. She confessed to something like, (years ago) feeling that she should maybe get sick to finally get my attention... she soon came down with diabetes and now feels guilty for it. I told her noone has that much control over things, not even me at my worst, don't sweat it, we'll deal with it as we deal with anything else.

Then it was my turn. My mind started to swim away, but I got a grip on it and spit it out anyway... "I acted out with guys after we were married too". She said "I knew it, I knew there was more" (in a loving & forgiving manner). After four more years of holding that last confession it was finally out now. I got on my knees & appologised to her and she accepted. We talked till 1:30am then capped it all off with the best loven *blush*.

That was it, the very last piece of abuse issue to struggle over. What peace... I knew that I wasn't done till I told her the whole truth, I'm glad that I didn't try to take that to my grave.

~George~


Top
#63069 - 09/07/02 07:07 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Toot your own horn George, you deserve it man !

That's a great story, a certain kind of justice. Cruising for porn and finding the answer.

Glad you're making it George
Lloydy \:D

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#63070 - 09/07/02 11:10 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Eddie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/31/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
AMiNUTS,
George has a good point about things getting better then ever before...once the acting out is over. I know the frame of mind that your husband is in...if he's acting out....he can't stop or think of your feelings! He just has to hit some kind of wall to be able to stop...Hope he does soon before you break up!!! Getting caught red-handed could stop him...it did for me!

Eddie


Top
#63071 - 09/09/02 09:20 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
George,

It certainly sounds like fate. You were meant to find that site and heal, right then and there. You were where you were suppose to be to find truth. Good for you!

You said something that really hit home.

you wrote:
If I go more than two days I start to feel antsy. My wife is happy & enjoys it. It just goes to show you that acting out is not about sex or what your wife is not giving you, its about control.

The control issue is very true. I always feel like he is always trying to be in control OF ME. But I am not a person who can be controlled because above all else I value autonomy. I can't give into sex simply because he needs (wants) it. I did that for years and ended up feeling quite used, since I really didn't want to be having sex with him. Something just didn't feel right. It is and was something I just couldn't put my finger on. Then after discovering the porn stuff, I realized he would look at porn late at night and come to me all hot and heavy. He wasn't having sex with me, he was simply *fu#$ing" them. That to me is unacceptable. But also, I think he wants to control me. It almost feels like he plays the role of the abuser (without abusing me). His needs are the MOST important, and I should satisfy them, regardless of whether I want sex or not. I just can't do that anymore. I have layed there thinking to myself, this sucks, I don't want to be here, but I just wanted his attitude to stop, so I gave him sex.(yuck)

I am happy for you that you can say things are great for you and your wife. I don't know that I'll ever speak those words. He knows that I am on the fence as far as staying married goes. Unfortunately, he really doesn't understand the impact that he has on the marriage. He claims to be committed and wouldn't ever leave, but doesn't recognize that his aloofness, inability to make a promise (about much of anything), and general slippery attitide, does not make for a good relationship. Its been 15 years of marriage and I would have to say pretty darn unhappy for more than 10 years.

Eddie - I think he justifies any behavior (whether he is acting out or not) as "normal." He thinks that the porn is normal, healthy behavior. (compared to looking at Playboy). It is VERY hard to not take things personal when they affect me quite personally. ...that he can't think of my feelings...I know that. Get caught red handed....he is too careful for that. He has always cleared his tracks. Reminds me of when we were teenagers in his parents house when they weren't home. He would pay attention to the tiniest details to clear the tracks, like leave the toilet paper role just as it was before going to the bathroom. (he wasn't even suppose to have a key to the house). I wouln't even think of stuff like that nor would I think that anyone else would pay attention to stuff like that. He has lived this way for more than 20 years and he is darn good at it.

Well, this probably got long. And George its never too late to respond. Thanks.

AMiNUTS


Top
#63072 - 09/09/02 07:02 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
AMiNUTS
It looks like make you're mind up time, I've read your other post as well.
We all deserve a decent life and one persons abuse doesn't mean they have a right to dictate another persons life.

We are selfish, and I've often said to others "be selfish, but not at the expense of others", my version of being selfish is to make time for myself. To say to others, "sorry, but this time is my time. I'll deal with you after this"
And it seems to work, people say ok and I deal with them later.

Recovery is hard, and harder for a partner. And it's up to us to lighten our partners loads.
Even if at the time we are preoccupied with ourselves, we need to think of others.

But ultimately we must all think of ourselves, we owe that to ourselves. And if that's being selfish at the expense of others, then that's a choice we must face.
Not a light one

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#63073 - 09/09/02 10:25 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
orodo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 735
Loc: Imladris, The Safe Haven of Ar...
Dear Aminuts:

I just wanted to say this about me, wife, and my behavior. I've wanted to join a gym too, but the wife would never let me. She does not trust me. I have been monogamous in body with my wife since 1987. The last time I tried to make a guy, she was with me, and I was trying to force a threesome. She told me at that point I needed to make a choice...her or guys. Somehow I realized that I truly did love her enough to repress my sexual attraction to me. I've rarely told her about what is going on in my head. Instead I would choose to run off, and smoke cigarettes and cigars. The excuse was that I was not allowed to smoke in the house or kids, so off I went. Then I quit smoking for a while, and the story was, "we need this at the store or we need that over there." Anything to get my sorry ass out of the house away from her and the kids. And the store was a bad place for me to be, cuz all I would do is check every "body" out. Never touched, but shit I look too much. Can't help myself. Trust by my wife has been very important to me, and I can never seem to earn it, maybe I don't deserve it, maybe I'll never have it. So instead I run around paranoid that she'll leave me if she ever catches me with a male or female friend. So I have only online friends, here at NOMSV, and even then, she tells me to stay the hell outta here, that this isn't helpful, and she tells me that I must be trying to make the big hook up while I'm here. Nothing could be further from the truth. Trust, I need it, crave it, have earned it, don't ever get it, like alot of other things in life. Be well stay well.

_________________________
It is better to be Dragon Master than Dragon Slayer. Some Dragons are meant to be mastered, others meant to be slain. Odin, Great Spirit, God, grant me the wisdom to know the difference. "May the Valar guide and bless you on your path under the sky"

Top
#63074 - 09/10/02 08:27 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
George Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 120
Loc: NY metro
AmINuts,

When you describe your husband, I see myself & my old behaviors. I too was a tyrant thinking only of my needs, using my wife for sex with someone else on my mind.

As me & the Mrs' talked the other night, we both agreed that had the marriage broken up, we both would've been miserable. Her to lead a solitary life, and me thinking that I would've gone gay. I know that I'd be sooo messed up continuing the abuse cycle, if not dead by now. She said that She would of always felt guilty for leaving. I tell you this because we both shudder to know how close we came to total destruction.

My wife never knew the root of my problem (sexual abuse), although there were plenty of other childhood issues to cover for it. I think that you are so far ahead knowing the root cause than my wife was. True, when I told her, I was already changed & still changing. It sounds like your husband is stuck in nuetral. I know you can't force healing on him, kind of like you can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. Maybe if you put some tools to heal right under his nose he'd take a sip.

Have you showed him this website? Gotten any of the books & tapes for him to check out? The annoniminity of the website makes it the easiest way of opening up, even easier than sitting in a therapist office. Just reading about others journies, he'll recognise himself & learn *alot* about his behaviors (like we all do). Maybe you could print out stuff from here that he'd recognise as his own issues as well.
Something has got to get him going again. I'm sure he's not happy with himself the way things are either.

I hate knowing that there are so many guys & their wives out there struggling because of what some evil bastard did to them as kids. And yet some people (scholarly types in liberal institutions) preach that *consentual* sex between kids and adults is ok, if not benificial to the child... Makes my blood boil!

Got to go cool off now.

~George~

*** If you haven't already read the addition to my first post in this thread, go back and read it. I added to it. I confessed to the acting out after we were married!


Top
#63075 - 09/10/02 11:38 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
Lloyd, Orondo and George,

Thanks for the replies. As far as showing him this sight, he is not at all open to the fact the he needs help of has any problems. When the issue surfaced several years ago, he read "abused boys" and did some work suggested in the book for a couple of weeks. He says he dealt with it and its over. He does not want to live with the label victim, as he puts it. I have thought of showing him the sight especially when I first came here, but then I felt like I wanted to learn as much as I could first from all of you wonderful folks. I have been coming here for a few months and have learned to recognize characteristic behaviors that you all share and to try not to take it personally. But again, he thinks he doesn't have a problem. Maybe by admitting it, he would feel like a victim or something.

Lloyd - I do try real hard to take care of myself, but I find it extremely stressful when the environment in the home is hitting the rocks (that is where we are right now). I didn't sleep a wink last night and we have a session tonight. I am really feeling the stress.

Orondo - the trust issue is huge. I just don't trust him at all. I have never caught him with other people, although I suspected things were going on. But I don't know what came first, I suspected or he told me about the SA. If he told me first, did that make me suscpicious (unrightfully)? I just don't know. I have come to realize that his disclosure has really caused my to question things more and I wonder if that is unfair. But then again, things that just didn't seam right before the disclosure only left me feeling uneasy, but not suscpicious. I do not like living in the land of suscpicion. It makes me feel very codependent and that is not where I want to be either.

George - the tyrant behavior...he wouldn't see it that way. He would say (and has) that a normal healthy marriage consists of sexual relations on a regular basis. Yup, it sure does, I agree. But something just doesn't feel right. His arguement, well if we were having sex and he was having his needs met, then there wouldn't be a problem from his perspective. I certainly understand that he believes that to be true and it could be considered true in a health, intact marriage, but I don't think that is what we have. I have my issues for sure (grew up in an alcoholic home with very tyrannical father who treated (and still does) my mother like shit). Anyway, as for the site or books...he is simply not open. He doesn't even know that I have been here. This has been my own informational gathering and learning (which has been very fruitful).

I will go check out your other post in the thread.

Thanks guys! I really appreciate your insight.

AMiNUTS


Top
#63076 - 09/10/02 12:46 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
AMiNUTS
Georges post here mirrors my experience so closely, as do so many others. We really do have a lot in common, and coming here we have a huge wealth of experience and knowledge.

You are making the effort to learn and understand the problems, and in doing so have come to realise that recovery is possible. My problems aren't over and finished with by any means, but I know how to live and deal with them with a great deal of success.
But from what you say your husband thinks he's "cured" by reading a book and a few weeks work, which I personaly would say is bullshit, it can't be done.
My guess is that he's frightened of what his future might hold if he digs deeper, denial is the best comfort blanket I know of.
And while he's still in the limbo of accepting he was abused but denying that it's causing problems, he's going to be confused and angry.
where's the anger going to be directed ? at anyone who comes along ( you ) who tells him that there is something wrong, but there is also something that can be done to ease it.
He doesn't want to know, because he's done all the work already !!

You can't do it for him, that's the very sad truth as I see it. Any marriage needs the full cooperation and hard work of both partners, throw in some crisis and it's even more important.
You seem to be doing all the hard work AMiNUTS.

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#63077 - 09/10/02 01:30 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
searching Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 21
AMiNUTS,

I won't go into too much detail around how some of the denial issues affected my marriage--but they definitely did. There was an early period of therapy, followed by "Okay, I've taken care of that, I'm fine now."

And then he acted out. That was the point at which everything really blew up--he came to me and confessed what he had done.

What I realized at that point was that it had to STOP BEING JUST ABOUT HIS DECISIONS. It had to start being about my decisions, too. I had to set boundaries for what I would or would not accept in the context of our marriage. I also had to decide what he would have to do, in terms of getting help, for me to be willing to stay in the marriage.

I have to note something really, really important here. I was seeing a therapist at the time, and she helped me to establish boundaries and an ultimatum. But the only way to get to that place was to recognize that I had to be willing to leave the marriage if he was unwilling to do what I felt was necessary. (By the way, I have two small children, so this was no easy decision.)

So, I wasn't saying to him, "You have to do these things because I say so." I was saying, "This is what I've decided I need in order to stay in this marriage and try to make it work." The choice of whether to do these things or not was his. He didn't have to do them--he only had to decide if he was willing to do what it took for me to stay.

What I asked of him was as follows:
1. He would have to get immediate help, both in a group program for sexual addicts and in continued therapy.
2. He would have to promise that he would not act out again, and I would be allowed to ask about this as needed to reassure myself that he was living up to his end of the deal.

The wonderful thing was that he was very willing to do what was needed. He knew he had crossed a line and was at risk of losing all that he had.

The other very important thing was to continue to focus on my own healing and growing--to understand that we'd reached this point in our marriage together. That's a tough thing to face--realizing that you may be an enabler or in serious denial. I spent so much time letting my boundaries slip that I really didn't even know where they were anymore, until I got help. I let myself be yelled at, bullied, emotionally abused, and cheated on. I'm proud to say that I work very hard not to do that anymore, and most of the time I succeed.

I completely understand how desperate you feel right now. Part of the desperation is coming from the sense of having no solid idea of what to do next, and realizing that you have no power. You need to, and deserve to, have equal power in your marriage. You will never have it until you are willing to let it (the marriage) go.

Be strong, and know that others here (including me) understand and care very much about you.

Lynda


Top
#63078 - 09/10/02 02:16 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
Dear Lloyd and Searching,

I really appreciate your advice. And I thoroughly understand my options. I too have been in therpay and while I am finishing school this year, we have discussed that it simply may not be the best time to leave (if I choose to do that). And yes, I have children too.

Lloyd - funny thing is he thinks he is working on communication skills in therapy , and he is and he has come a long way for sure. What seems to be happening is that it is not fixing the problem. Good communication is very important, but being able to communicate and believing that the SA is NOT the problem makes it hard for him to see anything other than he IS working on the relationship. I can understand that. HE truly believes that there is no problem relating to the SA. What the hell can anyone do about that? Nothing!

Lynda - My H would NEVER confess if he acted out. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. He would take it to the grave. I know that for sure. When I caught him using porn, he wouldn't admit it. Even in the face of evidence. A long time after he said, "well, I knew you knew and you knew I knew you knew." Can you believe that. That is as close to an admission as I will ever come. I INSISTED he go to therapy alone. Unfortunately, I have no ultamatum for that other than not engaging in a relationship. I am not holding the relationship hostage or anything, it just does NOT feel right and I cannot pretend everything is happy or normal. SOMETHING isn't right. And I cannot pretend that it is. THat is where I am. If I do not have proof of anything, then I could simply look like a paranoid fool. What really bothers me, is if nothing is going on then I am persecuting him for the SA that was not his fault. On the other hand, if he is playing me the fool for this long in therapy, then I don't know if I could ever forgive him if I got any proof. I suppose that would be the ultimate hitting bottom, because I would leave.

And thanks, there is alot of care and support here. Reading stuff here makes me feel that I AMnotNUTS and that there is really something going on outside of my own reality, I just can't proove it.

Thanks again,
AMiNUTS


Top
#63079 - 09/10/02 04:08 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
Cement Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 740
Loc: Southern California
Aminuts

I recognize all the patterns here, too. Pardon me for being blunt, but your husband is full of shit and probably in denial. He is manipulating his own perception of what is happening, and his therapy is only giving him fancier ways to manipulate. Until he faces his demons, until he there will be NO change. Also, I wish you hope,

Lynda put it best,
Quote:
I wasn't saying to him, "You have to do these things because I say so." I was saying, "This is what I've decided I need in order to stay in this marriage and try to make it work."
Read those words over and over...

and again, Lynda says,
Quote:
I was seeing a therapist at the time, and she helped me to establish boundaries and an ultimatum.
Are you in therapy, individually? because you need support and someone to echo back to you, in real life, that YOU ARE NOT NUTS to expect a husband to treat you with respect, regardless of what that husband has been through.

All those warm fuzzies aside, stop waiting for him to fix things for you. Set your own agenda, take charge of your life.

And don't leave him, he is secretly in a great amount of pain...

_________________________
And let the darkness fear our light.

Top
#63080 - 09/10/02 04:36 PM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
JamesMichael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 134
I don't believe that spouses ought necessarily to be confessors to each other. Isn't there some Step thing about making amends to all we have harmed unless to do so would unduly harm them? It could be cruel to burden another with one's dark side. I also think there can be a morbid curiosity concerning the offenses of the one in recovery. Men can't be decompensating, falling apart, running into traffic because a spouse can't handle what they're barely able to handle. This is not to say that if the stage is set, that there's a foundation for deeper sharing that victim history shouldn't be shared within the proper context. But a foundation must be laid first, and if it's not, then both need to start digging to lay one. I counsel prudence, compassion, and the awareness to "be kind, everyone is fighting a hard battle." (Ephesians). In my marriage, each of us have suffered from "impulsive indiscretions." I think my wife and I respect that there's pain and hurt, shame and so on there. I don't want to know the gory details of her behaviors, and I think it would be extremely uncharitable/unloving for her to know, in detail, or to speculate about the details, of my survivor "behaviors." Those are burdens I share elsewhere. If it's illness take it to the appropriate physician. Loved ones don't do the surgery. They pray that what's hurting is being taken care of by the proper hands.

Love is patient, love is kind...

JM


Top
#63081 - 09/11/02 09:41 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
AMiNUTS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 37
Cement,

I am not in individual therapy but we are seeing a therapist together. However, after last night's session and words of wisdom from this site, I believe it is a waste of time and will be going next time alone. I plan on telling my H that I need some time in therapy alone. His attitude has changed dramatically from I'll do this therapy thing if I have to - to instead a pompus asshole who almost seems to be laughing at it right in our presence. And then guess what...after session...to the gym. whatever! I am in a place that I have visited often. Its called take care of me and my children and FUCK him.

As for "don't leave him"...I think that would be the best thing he could hope for at this point in time. That IS rock bottom. Unfortunately it is rock bottom for everyone, including our children. I think he is in a totally selfish mode of behavior. And pardon my French, but I really think that since I won't worship his dick he is being self absorbed and doing who knows what. So once again, I don't actually give a flying fig what he is doing and with whom. As far as I am concerned, since we now are both in the same place (not giving a shit), I feel a little less guilt about being out of it. This is not to say that I will leave our house...because I will not leave. Emotional disconnect is what I am talking about. Emotional divorce until I can better take care of things.

I am in a really pissy mood. Haven't slept for two nights...and I actually believe he likes it when I am in turmoil. Its almost like a power thing..."Look how I can screw with her and make her feel bad, loose sleep...woohoo" I think he enjoys this because it gives him control. (I don't know this for sure, but this is how it feels).

James Michael..."love is patient, love is kind." I don't know if I love him. I don't even think I like him. Maybe I hang on because its scary do let go. Maybe I hang on because I feel sorry for him. I don't know about love, I only recognize circumstances that feel beyond my control.

Sorry for the crap I just unloaded.

AMiNUTS


Top
#63082 - 09/11/02 10:13 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
JamesMichael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 134
AMiNUTS,

This site is incredibly supportive and a great place to vent, get others' input, etc. It is, however, not a substitute for one-on-one therapy. No single participant of this site can know you or your situation as well as real-time/real-life therapist/counselor/whatever can. Obviously, you have to protect and care for yourself and your children especially if your husband isn't. It's self-preservation. He's blind to your hurt because he's anesthetized by his pain. Detach yourself. Don't be his emotional punching bag. You can't get into a fencing match with him. You're throwing darts,
and he has a hatchet. Sad. Establish some boundaries with him.

Stop being a doormat for his dirt, and be a doorkeeper for yourself and your children. You decide who and what's safe to let into your lives.

Get real-live/real-time help.

I wish Peace to you.

JM


Top
#63083 - 09/11/02 10:24 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
searching Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 21
AMiNUTs, I'm so sorry you feel so bad right now. However, I'm glad to see you get angry. You must let yourself feel that anger so that you'll build the strength to do what you have to do.

Feel angry. You deserve to. But don't stop there--take care of yourself. You've been hurt, and your pain is no less important than your husband's pain. You don't have to be vindictive, but you should, as I said before, set boundaries and try to live by them.

Please keep posting, and please take care of yourself. Get help, therapy, find a trusted support system. Become less dependent on him if you can--being dependent can be an awful trap.

Keep in touch,

Lynda


Top
#63084 - 09/11/02 11:12 AM Re: AMiNUTS - It's time to Get Paranoid...
soccer Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 43
Aminuts: major hugs to you. I really feel for you. The advice that has been given her is sound - make sure you are setting boundaries and not letting him treat you like an emotional punching bag. Also therapy of your own is a good idea too. If finances are a problem for therapy there are often places where it can be provided on a sliding fee scale, such as at a university where PhD psych. students are in pre-certification clinical practice.

Dont let the fact that you have kids (unless there are financial reasons) prevent you from even a trial separation if that is what you want. As mentioned, I grew up in a home with an alcoholic father (abuse victim) and he treated ALL of us like shit. He still does from time to time. I think seeing my mother stand up for herself and say "ENOUGH!" would likely have taught both me and my brother a lesson on how to stand for ourselves in relationships. My brother and I are now both in our mid 30's now and still struggling to find mr and ms. right - we just tend to put up with crap from our partners and stay in relationship MUCH too long, and put up with waaay too much.

Kids are very sensitive to tensions between parents, and they will DEFINITELY soon if they haven't already, pick up on the fact that your H is having major problems. For me, I just felt that my father really didnt like me very much. I felt that he loved me out of paternal obligation, but that he really didnt like me very much or feel that I was anything important to him. I still feel that way today. So dont feel that leaving/separating would necessarily be 100% bad for the kids if this is what you really feel you must do. It may be a powerful lesson on how to stand up for themselves.

Soc


Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.