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#62246 - 10/13/04 07:39 AM a rite of passage
forlauren Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 63
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
feeling super sad. Found the kiddie porn a year ago and finally put my foot down about porn in the house. Scared for my 1 year old daughter. Husband says sex w/his dad's gf when he was 12 & dad's there in the room (doing what I haven't asked) was just the greatest thing. To this day his relationship with his dad is totally incestuously sexual; his daddy still sends him the porn he grew up with & they talk about little girls together (have found many sick e-mails). I read some of the survivors' stories until I cried and couldn't read more, but I couldn't find any where the guys say they maintained a relationship with the abuser for decades afterward and just didn't see it for what it was at first. He suffers all the symptoms of a survivor and he's about to lose his wife and baby, but he says he doesn't want to give up his fantasies. He used to be the sweetest boy I ever knew and ever since I confronted him last year he's been increasingly abusive and threatening and today is my b-day and he gave me a card filled with insults. Why does he want to be so sick? Just found out he initiated his older brother into masturbating and oral sex. He says the thing w/daddy only happened one time & the oral sex w/brother was a short-lived thing. If I knew he was from the incest family I would never have had a child with him. If I didn't have a child with him & he started all this up I would have been long gone. Is there any hope for him?


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#62247 - 10/13/04 12:52 PM Re: a rite of passage
jwwells Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 34
Loc: Ontario
forlauren: There is always hope! I am so sorry you would need this board....

Often, it is darkest before the dawn. It could well be that you now face the dawn of realization, in him....

You're in Canada. The National Clearinghouse, part of Health canada, will send you material on SA in males. It is sadly EXTREMELY limited compared to that available to females.... But, it is something.

"The Invisible Boy" is worth the read, although it is rather long and formated for therapists. The short pamphlets "When teenage boys have been sexually abused" and "When men have been sexually abused" are short and to the point. They are worth getting.

The addresses are:

National Clearinghouse on Family Violence
Healthy Communities Division
Centre for Healthy Human Development
Health Canada
Address Locator: 1907D1
Jeanne Mance Building
Tunney's Pasture
Ottawa, ON
K1A 1B4

Telephone : 1-800-267-1291 or (613) 957-2938
Facsimile : (613) 941-8930
Web: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hppb/familyviolence/index.html

jw

_________________________
Say what you mean: Mean what you say.
Whatever you say: Say it with love.
The Moody Blues: Keys to the Kingdom

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#62248 - 10/13/04 05:12 PM Re: a rite of passage
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
A.

I'm sorry that I didn't notice that you were in Canada. We have two other board members who actually practice in Canada, Rick Goodwin in Ottawa and Don Wright, in Vancouver, BC. If you're anywhere near Vancouver drop Don a line and see if he has any suggestions for you.
You should be able to reach Don at: bcsmssa@hotmail.com. If you have any difficulty getting a hold of him, drop me a note.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#62249 - 10/13/04 09:56 PM Re: a rite of passage
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
You are right to insist on appropriate boundaries for behavior when it comes to your child. That includes keeping pornography away from her. It may be that your husband does not know how to show parental affection without being inappropriate. I think you said that the two of you were seeing a counselor? If you are, I think you owe it to yourself and your family to bring this up.

For many survivors it is a source of shame and helplessness, to have physically responded to the SA or to have kept in touch with those who abused them. If you haven't seen a lot of discussion on these topics I would guess that's why. It certainly isn't unique to your husband. You should also remember that what you read here isn't the definitive "survivor experience"-- just because you see something here doesn't mean it has to be true for your husband, just because you don't see something here doesn't mean it can't be true for him.

Can he change?... that really depends on him. Does he want to change? Is he ready to do the work of changing? Whether or not he is going to change, please make sure you are taking care of yourself.

SAR


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#62250 - 10/14/04 05:23 AM Re: a rite of passage
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1196
Loc: Northern Ohio
I dont think I have responded to a post in here for two years. I dont even come in here.
But as a survivor of incest, I have to say this.

From what you say, ur husband isnt tring to change. What he is doing is illegal, & immoral.
And he likes it. I would be very afraid for ur child & Any & Every child he comes into contact with. He has Child porn & talks with his dad about have sex with children? That goes beyound 'acting out duo to past abuse' to me.

Counseling? This behavior doesnt look like he's working on his issues. If he is willing to work on it, fine, give him some motivation. Take his computer & put it in storage somewhere. Keep this evidence to 'motivate' him.
If he doesnt, or continues to do more, I would turn him into the police.

Thats a hard thing to do?

Let me tell you, being raped by my Dad for years was a lot harder!

Who has to suffer at his hands? You can end it before it starts.

Your husband has No motivation to change as of now. What is he leading himself into?

Dont be delusioned into thinking u will cure him.

You Have to force him.

The Mods might deleat this post I supose. But Blacken isnt backing down!

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#62251 - 10/14/04 05:33 PM Re: a rite of passage
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 226
Loc: Europe
"If I didn't have a child with him & he started all this up I would have been long gone."

You're having a child is all the more reason to distance yourself from this situation, not reason to hang around.

Your letter frightens me. There may be hope, but you are not responsible for changing him. And I am not at all sure that staying around will help.

But again, helping him is not the urgent question right now.

You are responsible for taking care of yourself. Do what is best for you and your child.

I think any crisis worker you find will take your problem very seriously. Get help.

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#62252 - 10/15/04 04:50 AM Re: a rite of passage
jaywho Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 39
Loc: WV
It's hard to leave, even harder to stay but what would you be looking forward to if you did stay. Do you think your fears will ever be over, your daughter for instance will you ever leave him alone with her again?

You are a mother, your child must come first. Read some survivors stories then tell me why if you suspect would you stay. If you stay it would only be for your benifit not the child's.

Love is great if you receive it back. Can't make anyone change but you can help yourself. I pray you will find the strengh and courage.

You said you wouldn't be with him if it wasn't for having his child. The child is more of a reason to leave! He is open to his fantasies, if you stay it would be saying to him (I think) that you agree in some way. It's availability and one day your daughter may become his target. Once is enough, you gotta stop it before.

I wish you the best of luck. This is hard, even harder if you have someone who doesn't want help.


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#62253 - 10/15/04 10:27 AM Re: a rite of passage
forlauren Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 63
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
jwwells, thank you for the Clearinghouse info. I emailed them about those pamphlets this morning.

Ivanhoe, I just emailed Don Wright. Thank you for that.

SAR, you said -
>You are right to insist on appropriate boundaries for behavior when it comes to your child. That includes keeping pornography away from her.<

Husband insists I can't censor what he looks at and that of course he would never let daughter see it. Her accidentally seeing any of it is almost secondary to my feeling that he has completely lost all rights to look at any pornography ever again, period. He has a little girl. Is that what he wants for her when she grows up? Today I was at the park with my baby and I started to feel naseous again because I thought about the child porn I found. I can still see that little girls silk-like pale blond hair and I feel sick to my stomach because it was on Kazaa, that file sharing program, and when I caught it at least a dozen pedophiles had already accessed and downloaded it from our computer. I told husband even looking at that was revictimizing that little girl and he says he can in no way see how that's true, that he's not responsible for that. I was sitting in the rocks by the swing and thinking about that little baby I felt so angry I was throwing rocks.

>It may be that your husband does not know how to show parental affection without being inappropriate. I think you said that the two of you were seeing a counselor? If you are, I think you owe it to yourself and your family to bring this up.<

Yeah, I really don't think he realizes at all what he's doing. But once he got off the phone with his brother and told me when he asked his brother what he was doing he said "just sittin' on the couch luvvin' on my kids." My husband actually said it kind of sounded gross to him. So does part of him realize kids aren't to be loved ON but simply loved? Maybe they just don't have any clue how totally gross their dad is and that's where they get their inappropriateness?

>For many survivors it is a source of shame and helplessness, to have physically responded to the SA or to have kept in touch with those who abused them. If you haven't seen a lot of discussion on these topics I would guess that's why.<

Yeah, he's pretty much dug his heels in on the fact that it was just the greatest thing that ever could have happened to him. Why can't he see that all pedophiles think they are sexually liberating the child? I've tried to tell him "THINK about it. Those 2 adults PLANNED ahead of time what they were going to do to you. It was a sexual Fantasy for them." He just shrugs like he doesn't get it. There's a lot more I'd like to say to his face like of course
when "daddy" should have been concentrating his energies on educating you for your bar mitzvah instead he was focused on fulfilling his lust needs through his son. My husband comes from a privileged background. Everyone was just drinking and drugging and sexing it up all around him, basically neglecting him. Sure he had a pool and a tennis court but what he needed was love and what he got was a woman who raped him and a daddy doing I don't even know what in the room there with them. What happened to him by no means made him a man. I think it screwed him up for normal intimacy forever. It makes sense to me now why he's always screaming at me how demanding I am and throwing everything up in my face how he did this for me and that for me. I always say wow, don't do me any favors. See there was no way he could adequately meet the needs of those 2 vampires who used him like that then discarded him.
I gotta try to calm down and get some sleep. How will we ever stop the pain. The internet is a tool for these predators. Most pedophiles offend an average 50-100 victims. Most are never caught. I read about one guy who said he could do it in the same room with all kinds of people around and people couldn't even see what he was doing.
You know what really really sucks is I would like to get that - what I don't want to call him a man! My husband's biological father I guess. I want to take him down. But when I called and told him to send no more porn he went on red alert and took everything off his computer. He has a 10 year old daughter and you can bet your baloney he's got illegal things going onto his computer. I saw a site for a washer/eraser software today that made me soooooo angry. It's called evidence-eliminator and there's this flashing html that says "find out what you've been missing" "access banned newsgroups" "make your surfing ANONYMOUS." Does this stuff work? How will pedophiles ever be caught then?

Blacken you said
>What he is doing is illegal, & immoral.
And he likes it. I would be very afraid for ur child & Any & Every child he comes into contact with. He has Child porn & talks with his dad about have sex with children? <

As far as illegal goes, I only found one actual real child porn video. Unfortuneately we sold that computer not too long after that incident. I don't think I can get him to tell me who he sold it to, in case that file has a date or something that would make him culpable. I suppose if I ever had the need to have him prosecuted the police could get that other computer?
I'll tell you what I mean by talking about sex with children. He makes jokes to his dad like "tiger woods and michelle wie should mate, wonder if erin (tiger's wife) would go for it" and he intersperses the wink smiley & the lewd tongue wagging smiley. Michelle Wie is the 14 year old golf phenom. When I told him this was completely disgusting, to talk about a 14 year old child like a sex object, he yells at me "Oh PLEASE. That's just 2 guys talking about Tiger." When I was pregnant he told his dad the baby was swimming around happily inside me. And that he "knows how he/she feels." with that damn winky smiley again.
I am freaking out right now. I decided to see hubby's email again and I found an email from his dad this is it:

I may have sent you this.
I really like... "some" of the stuff in here.
\:\)
Jess and Sarah leaving for 5 weeks on July 19th.
Sighh...
You do know what I'm 'wishing'...
\:\) \:\)
but....
"the curse..." .... just might get me.
(:

I followed the link. They all looked like little girls. My skin is prickling and I have to keep breathing. I don't want to tell you the site because I don't want anyone else to see it. It said "we offer the largest, freshest, classiest collection of teen nude art and fine photography."

Made me so sad. First I thought of my cousin who was sooo beautiful, I always envied her peaches & cream complexion and beautiful mouth and some guy her mom was with paid her all this attention and got her into modelling...I guess you can guess where it went from there. Started when she was like 12. Well she's not so beautiful anymore. She won't take proper care of her appearance or emphasize her looks in any way. Of COURSE little girls are beautiful, all children are. But if you rob them of their dignity they'll be looking craggy and grey-skinned by 25.
I am hating so much right now. Are men evil? Do they know the suffering they create? Why do they think they can lay their gaze on little girls. I want to keep my baby locked in the house. I'm so scared so scared.
I feel terrible for my baby because she is a very happy baby but yesterday I was wailing on the kitchen floor and today if I didn't keep her close all day she began to wail in sorrow like I've never heard her. She will be abused in her life, I know she will. Oh my god she just let out a little cry. I'm crying silently but she is so connected to me it isn't even funny.

blacken, you said:
>Dont be delusioned into thinking u will cure him.

You Have to force him.<

I went to an S-Anon meeting the other night. This was the night before baby stuck her tongue in my mouth. I left her with her dad to go to that damn meeting. yuck. At the meeting I read about Step 1 and one sentence read something like "it does not matter how smart you are, how strong you are, or how sexy you are. You can not change another person." It did give me a little more peace because I have been making myself blue in the face trying to tell him how WRONG WRONG WRONG he is. Then he tries to make up any and everything he can about me to insult me like I have MUCH bigger problems than he does. But what do you mean by "You Have to force him." I wish I could force him! I'd like to force him into an inpatient treatment center for sex addiction. I can't force him to do anything.
learning2remember, I have reached out for help and I'm exploring all my options right now. I will not leave my baby alone with him again.

jaywho, thank you for being radically honest when you said:

>You said you wouldn't be with him if it wasn't for having his child. The child is more of a reason to leave! He is open to his fantasies, if you stay it would be saying to him (I think) that you agree in some way. It's availability and one day your daughter may become his target. Once is enough, you gotta stop it before.<

I know I suck. It's like you would not believe the good qualities this guy has. Everyone likes him. His daughter loves him very much. After I found the child porn I told him he could not change her diaper or bathe her any more. Well I only stuck to it for a month because he said all the right things. con artist. he could sell snake oil to a snake oil salesman. Yes, I'm on high alert now. Will he make all the overtures of getting better eventually? Will he con me again? When I was first dating him he listened to all female singer-songwriters like Sarah MacLachlan and Tori Amos and I thought he was very feminist-minded. Well I found out much later he never even listened to the lyrics he just liked how the music sounded. I feel like i married one of the pod people.


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#62254 - 10/15/04 11:30 AM Re: a rite of passage
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 226
Loc: Europe
Forlauren,

At first I was saddened by your situation, then frightened. Now I am angry.

I am angry because everything I read tells me you need to get yourself and the baby out of there NOW, and I am afraid your are talking/thinking/feeling/reasearching instead of leaving.

I'm glad your went to S-anon.

I can't help wondering, though, if while you were gone your husband did not take pictures that are now on the web. I hate to think such is the case, but there is absolutely no reason to believe he wouldn't do such a thing.

I can imagine that what I am saying can be very upsetting, but, frankly, I'm upset now.

You don't need to search his e-mails for more evidence.

You don't need to listen to his abuse anymore.

You must not trust your daughter with him.

You must not stay there.

Please use this sight and other groups for any support we can give you in this very difficult time. I know leaving is easier said than done. But don't assume that your processing these issues with us or others is going to make your daughter safe.

Why don't you just call the police and let them decide what is legal and not. Make the jerk leave instead of you. I'm not from Canada, but there must be some sort of Child protective services that you can turn to.


GET OUT OF THERE!!!


"I know I suck."

Well, I know you don't suck. Don't believe him when he tells you that.

"After I found the child porn I told him he could not change her diaper or bathe her any more. Well I only stuck to it for a month because he said all the right things. con artist. he could sell snake oil to a snake oil salesman."

Again, separate yourself and your daughter from this dangerous man. Either you need to leave or the authorities need to take him away.

Once you both are safe, you may begin to realize just how poisonous the situation is. Until you get the appropriate distance, you will want too badly to believe what he says.

I don't trust/believe him; and I don't trust you to set/keep appropriate boundaries. I don't trust you to protect your daughter or yoursef against his abuse as long as you are all in the same household.

Please prove your trustworthiness by distancing your daughter from your husband as quickly as your can.

I just don't know what to say to convince you that talking through things here is not enough, nor is going to group, nor is talking/fighting with your husband.

The more I think about it, the more I think you should call the cops.

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#62255 - 10/15/04 11:42 AM Re: a rite of passage
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 226
Loc: Europe
Forlauren,

Now I'm feeling guilty for being hard on you.

Somehow I missed the sentence,

"learning2remember, I have reached out for help and I'm exploring all my options right now. I will not leave my baby alone with him again."

Big step. Keep up the good work. See? Even more proof that you don't suck!

I also know child care can be a real issue. Tell the S-Anon group, they may be able to help.

I believe the guy can be charming. When I confronted my older brother about his abusing me (some 20 years after the fact), I only had the guts to do it on the phone, and he joked about it in a way that made me laugh a little.

I'm just sharing this to let you know that abusers can be very charming, and recognizing that my brother's charm could be a weapon against me helped me decide how to deal with him. I have an easier time in person or thru e-mail, so I choose only to talk in those ways with him about the abuse.

I hope this helps. I only want to help.

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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