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#60622 - 07/13/04 03:54 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
MikeNY:
You asked for some feedback on your post above. If I can distill what I think the gist of it is:
Quote:
This causes survivors to be drawn toward bad relationships and away from good ones. This literally causes them to have strong feelings for people who are bad for them and to not have feelings toward anyone who is good for them, or fear reactions to them. It causes survivors to run away from anything that is good for them. It causes survivors to be afraid of things that are good for them. It causes the fulfillment of self-defeating prophecy.
My take on this process is one where the survivor has self-esteem problems ("I'm damaged goods", "I'm only good for one thing", "It's my fault that the abuse happened, I didn't stop it, I went back" etc.)

A few possible scenerios: The person expects that he is unlovable so he doesn't try (isolation, avoidance of relationships); he expects rejection so he provokes or engages in obnoxious behavior that causes the rejection he is expecting; he believes that because he is inferior, damaged, inadequate, screwed up, he has to seek out people who are obviously damaged or with many problems; he can't trust or have a loving relationship so he has to sabotage it; and other variations on that theme.

This is why it is difficult to do relationship therapy without addressing the underlying sense of inadequacy. No matter what the survivor is told that is good about him, he won't believe it because old tapes/>

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#60623 - 07/14/04 10:18 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:

This causes survivors to be drawn toward bad relationships and away from good ones. This literally causes them to have strong feelings for people who are bad for them and to not have feelings toward anyone who is good for them, or fear reactions to them. It causes survivors to run away from anything that is good for them. It causes survivors to be afraid of things that are good for them. It causes the fulfillment of self-defeating prophecy.



I think a lot of people suffer this - I too have a past history of picking people who really weren't a good bet as far as a long term relationship, mostly becuse I didnt think I was "good enough" for the guys with more on the ball.. I wasn't "pretty enough".. I was "too fat", "too this, too that" (insert whatever put down my dad inserted in my brain throughout my childhood). When I finally met someone with the same issues as me I could RELATE - it just felt kind of "normal" to sit around and grouse about our dysfunctional homes and our insane parents...

However, I also chose people that did not work on their issues, and neither did I, which led to some pretty unhealthy and immature relationship dynamices. Sure enough, the relationships with those guys broke up, leading me to reinforce the belief that I wasn't good enough for ANYONE.

While I did not grow up with SA in my history, I did I grow up with an alcoholic, angry, depressed parent and a wickedly tight codependent other parent who failed to protect her kids from their father's wrath.. so who could blame me? I felt and still do sometimes feel pretty inadequate.

Its only when I met my current partner who was an old FRIEND, despite the effects of SA we have much more of a relationship than we've ever had with anyone else and we are BOTH committed to healing, together, and individually.

Quote:


This is why it is difficult to do relationship therapy without addressing the underlying sense of inadequacy. No matter what the survivor is told that is good about him, he won't believe it because old tapes/>

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#60624 - 07/14/04 10:57 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Ken,
Thank you for your response. What I truly wanted was your opinion having to do with the classical conditioning and the operant conditioning. What I am saying is that the classical conditioning occurs when the event is actually taking place and that the operant conditioning is from the reinforcement schedule of the abuse and all of the questions which repeatedly go through the survivor's mind. This resulting in overlapping, mixed, even reversed feelings toward various stimuli. This programming is what causes ALL of the automatic responses.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60625 - 07/14/04 03:10 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Mike:
True enough (your de>

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#60626 - 07/14/04 03:45 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Ken,
Thank you. This supports exactly what I have come to understand is going on.

Or instead of the carrot scenario, "I want the things that are good for me instead of the things that I am drawn toward that are bad for me." The mind needs to be re-trained to actually override these programmed feelings. Such as replacing the programming that draws people toward bad relationships with people who they have strong "feelings" for with actually re-programming toward good relationships with people who are good for them. I say this without getting into the dynamics of the reinforcement that occurs with repeat bad relationships that causes the programming to become even stronger. I am talking about actually re-programming the mind to be drawn toward things that are good and re-programming the feelings which are attached to that.

Ex. Fear and love become intertwined. Fear of love pushes a survivor away from people who truly care about them who are good for the survivor. The surivor literally repels good things. Feelings of love toward things that should be feared draws them toward people and things that are bad for them. Literally making it so that the survivor cannot truly trust their own instincts or feelings until they have re-programmed them.

Simplified, this is half of the "Wobble" or "Come here - go away dance". The other half being the re-programming. I realize that the wobble won't even start without the survivor recognizing the good things that they want are different from the things that they are comfortable, familiar with, and have feelings toward.

Plus, the various hormones in the body can create a physical chemical addiction on top of the psychological one. Addictions to any of the chemicals related to emotions.

Ex. Fear and love become intertwined. Adrenaline is released during episodes of fear. A addiction to fear or anything that releases adrenaline can be created due to it feeling good because of adrenaline's connection to love. The same example can be used with any of the chemicals that are released causing multiple variations: Depression, Anxiety, etc. Usually more than one thing is intertwined, ex. guilt, fear, extacy, happiness, shame, and love.

Mental abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and sexual abuse all involve extremely similar forms of both classical and operant conditioning with very slight variations.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60627 - 07/14/04 04:10 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Ken,
Your post are very insiteful. I find the way you and Mike have said ring a true tone with me. I have stoped smoking very resently, just a few months. And I still have times I want one. I know it's not just my mind being use to me smoking and thats why. So I keep telling myself it's just in your mind you really dont want one. \:D So far so good.

james

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#60628 - 07/14/04 10:44 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Since this thread is far different from how it was started, I began a new thread to continue the dialog. See "Conditioned Responses".
Ken


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#60629 - 07/15/04 11:53 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Archnut:
So the support I offered was wrong?

Im not very good at these deep, intellictual (I cant even spell it) discussions

Archnut
"And all that was left was hope"

My Story (TRIGGERS)
http://www.waltonhop.blogspot.com
There was nothing wrong with offering support for her. Supporting her abusing his wife is a completely different subject. What you said supported her abusing his wife. Supporting something that hurts someone else is wrong.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60630 - 07/16/04 10:35 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Archnut Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 343
Loc: United Kingdom
Story of my fuckin life that is!

Youd make a great diplomat

Archnut
"And all that was left was hope"

My Story (TRIGGERS)
http://www.waltonhop.blogspot.com


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