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#60591 - 07/09/04 07:53 PM NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6



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#60592 - 07/09/04 08:36 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
HARMONY,

First I'll start out by saying your name should be DISharmony if you are having an affair with a married man. No matter how bad you preceive he has it at home, this is a bad situation for both of you. No matter what you do regarding the question of SA, get out of that relationship. If I'm off-base here, forgive me.

Regarding the question of SA. The only way he will begin to seek help for SA is if he seeks help for SA. The laws of physics dictate that the only way you can push is away. You can guide and you can be supportive, but that's about it. He will only seek help when he sees and wants it. To push will only make him retreat more. The only one that can bring him to heal himself is himself. You cannot fix him, no matter how much you may want to.

The teddy bear was a wonderful thing. That was very kind and considerate of you. I appreciate that you did that.

Take care,
Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#60593 - 07/09/04 08:50 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6



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#60594 - 07/09/04 11:45 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Quote:
Now that I suspect SA is the reason for the decreased self esteem
What is the reason for your low self esteem that has put you in an affair with a married man?

Bill was right about what he said. The teddy bear was a nice idea, but you are only heading toward trouble for yourself and for him.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60595 - 07/10/04 12:13 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6



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#60596 - 07/10/04 12:50 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Harmony,
First off if this man in your life has suffered SA in his child hood the only real thing you can do is show him that you are there for him when and IF he wants to share that info with you. And that you will not judge him. Telling someone that you have been abused is one of the hardest thing a man can do. The teddy bear is a good thing. Kind of cool if you ask me.

Now,
Quote:
having an affair is not what I want to be doing
ummmmmmmmmm HELLO.......is he forcing you to "having an affair"? If the answer is no then you want to be doing it.
Quote:
I am not looking to destroy a marriage
you may not be looking but you are. This is a married man and you have been sleeping with some other womans husbond for 7 years. Wonder how long you and him will be before he finds anther one like you. You should change your name to "Harm" because you are not providing Harmony for this man's life. In fact you are probley doing harm to him. Helping him see that keeping secerts is just part of life. Shame on you. You say you love this man, what about his wife? You make no mention of her. You say you have known him for 30 years. Which leads me to believe you know his wife and if they had kids then you have seen his kids grow up and start lives of there own.

Now this is a place to get support on issues due to SA, but you have to take the good with the bad. I am sure that you will find ways to help this man and help yourself at the same time. But when you come in here talking about abusing his wife please be ready for the backlash.

Good luck
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#60598 - 07/10/04 08:10 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Archnut Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 343
Loc: United Kingdom
Maybe I'm well off message with regard to this thread but im gonna post it regardless.

I feel its my duty to a least try to give a helping hand to someone whose asking for help as I searched for so long for help myself.

I have empathy with Harmony as I too was labeled as a "homewrecker" in my younger life with numerous affairs with married women trying to be a man and to prove to myself that I wasnt gay.

I found the self rightious attitude a bit uncomfortable.

Regards

Archnut
"And all that was left was hope"

My Story (Triggers)
http://www.waltonhop.blogspot.com


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#60599 - 07/10/04 09:28 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6
Thank you, Arch:

Regardless of the dynamics of my relationship with this man, the bottom line is he is a survivor of SA. This is why I am looking for help, so I can help him when he is ready for it. I am also interested in learning as much as I can from those who have already been there.

He has no friends, no support system, retreats and isolates, and talks of suicide. I happen to love him as a friend more than anything. So I am here for help, not judgement.

Thanks for your support to me. It matters.


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#60600 - 07/10/04 01:39 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Harmony,
Dont get me wrong. You will find the support you need here. But you are going to have to take the good with the bad. Read the reply's and take what you feel you can use and discard the rest. After all you will find that survivor's can be very intence on some things. As for your friend, you need to keep in mind that there is a diffence between support and trying to do it for him. We tend to try "fix" things in the ones we love in order to help forgo some of the pain involved in them doing it themselves. This isnt something you can do for him. You can walk beside him, hold his hand, hug him, love him. But when it comes down to brass tacks he is the one who has to make the choice to help himself. If you read some of the threads here under the family and friends forum you will find a pretty common theam. Be sure to take care of yourself first and for most. You will not do him and expecily yourself any good if you loss yourself (regardless if we think thats a good thing or bad thing) in trying to help him in his recovery. Some times survivor's need a little push and sometimes we push back. So be carful you are getting ready to start down one of the more rerording and most scary roads you have ever seen. Just be sure to be true to yourself on this journy.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#60601 - 07/10/04 01:53 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6
Thank you James.


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#60602 - 07/10/04 02:06 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
All that you can do for him is ask him to get help and point him in the right direction.

I would still love to hear the logic behind your belief explaining how having an 8 year affair is good for someone's marriage. You must think very highly of yourself to believe that, especially when he "withdraws" back to his wife. I wonder if it could be contributing to why he is in a BAD marriage. I'm sure that things will be different with you if you ever manage to convince him to leave her. After 8 years, I'm sure it must be a high priority for him.


I will never understand the logic of people like you. Probably because there is none. You are just selfish and ignorant.

I will suggest that you go apologize to his wife and ask for her forgiveness.

I have much much more to say, but I won't.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60603 - 07/10/04 07:15 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
jaywho Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 39
Loc: WV
Amen MikeNY
Quote:
I would still love to hear the logic behind your belief explaining how having an 8 year affair is good for someone's marriage. You must think very highly of yourself to believe that, especially when he "withdraws" back to his wife. I wonder if it could be contributing to why he is in a BAD marriage. I'm sure that things will be different with you if you ever manage to convince him to leave her. After 8 years, I'm sure it must be a high priority for him.
I have a friend doing the same. 6 years and still there! She is stuck cause he plays her emotions. He tells her about his wife being mean to him, taking his money . . etc. . anything to justify that he is the one in pain here. Love me . . I am so hurt . . we as women love it, eat it up . . gotta take care of our men . . natural instinct. Why do you want this responsibility, learn a new hobby.

I see my friend in pain, crying and hoping that one day he will come around. How about taking your own life into consideration and making yourself HAPPY ?"?"?"

My friend said: "if I only get one day a month it is enough, it is better than nothing", what a joke. The other 29 days she sits waiting. CRAZY!

Hey had a thought? Is his wife aware of the SA? Anyone but yourself? If not that would be another way to keep you hanging then wouldn't it? You have an issue that he only told you; can't leave him now.

Not saying the SA isn't an issue but my friend's man uses things simular to keep her feeling at bay.

Another thing: Could this "Harmony" be an "acting out partner"? I'm new but if it is going on 8 years, it must make him feel something but nothing enough to leave . . not sure . . an idea?


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#60604 - 07/10/04 08:01 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Quote:
we as women love it, eat it up . . gotta take care of our men . . natural instinct.
I can give you so many arguments against this statement that you could write a book when I'm done. With what happened to your husband you should know how false this statement actually is. This is one of the stigmas of society which has caused many of us here great amounts of pain. You can be content knowing that you yourself are like that, but there is no innate natural instinct involved. My perp was nothing but a control freak who needed to satisfy a need for power, SHE did it at my expense. Women are fully capable of comitting ALL of the same crimes that men do, and they do. She was no care giver. Her daughter is proof of that, but I won't go into any details.


Quote:
Another thing: Could this "Harmony" be an "acting out partner"? I'm new but if it is going on 8 years, it must make him feel something but nothing enough to leave . . not sure . . an idea?
Yes, I have more than one idea, but I will not speculate on things when I do not know enough about the situation. The only thing that I know right now is that a woman with no self-esteem is sleeping with another woman's husband and thinks that it is good for her marriage. I wonder if there are children involved. I wonder how many other women he may have done this with or IS doing this with. I wonder how many other people Harmony has been involved with during this 8 year time period. I wonder how many precautions either one of them has taken or is taking concerning STDs. I wonder how good it would be for his wife and her marriage when he comes home with STD's? If he is lying to his own wife, how many other people do you think he is lying to?

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60605 - 07/10/04 09:56 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Harmony, you said that you are a counselor. Are you his counselor? If you are, that places you in a position where you are considered to have power over him. Whatever other legalities are involved vary state to state. I do know that it would make you nothing but a perp to most, if not all, of us here.

Quote:
You say you have known him for 30 years. Which leads me to believe you know his wife
Do you know his wife? If so, how many times have you lied to her to her face? Every time that you pretended to be her friend and haven't talked with her about all of this, is another time.


(Edited by Ken for flaming.)

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60606 - 07/11/04 10:45 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Also, I can't wait for the lawmaker's to actually do something about all of this stuff the way that they can and should. Some of them are finally getting smart enough to try to do things with it. They can easily create laws that would follow the same logics as gun laws and DWI laws regarding things like what her husband is doing to her. There are all kinds of "Potential to cause harm" laws. I also hope that someone will be smart enough to try to use the new "Bioterrorism" laws that are applicable to situations like this. I am glad that they have started to arrest some people who do these things for attempted murder and murder when they infect somone with HIV while doing this stuff. Everytime that he doesn't tell her what he has been doing before having sex with his wife is another time that he is holding a gun to her head. She just doesn't know about it, and doesn't know if the gun is loaded.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60607 - 07/12/04 12:02 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
jaywho Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 39
Loc: WV
Quote:
With what happened to your husband you should know how false this statement actually is. This is one of the stigmas of society which has caused many of us here great amounts of pain.
I am very aware because of what happend to my husband that all women are not created equal. I however do take great pride because I have such LOVE for him I do feel I need to care for him. I didnt' mean anything by this. I do feel that in most women there is a natural instinct to nurture and care for anyone they truely love. After 8 years you can't tell me even though we talk crap about Harmony there isn't LOVE in her emotions. She wouldn't be here if there wasn't. SA is never about LOVE I've learned it is about CONTROL.

I do not agree with any women seeing a married man. However the man is at fault if after 8 years his A$$ is still keeping her on. To do this he must make her feel important, how else is he doing that if not by making her feel needed? That was all I was saying.

I think you have read most of my posts. I do feel that low self estem has caused her to stay that long as well as my husbands shit to happen! But . . You feed a stray and it will usually stay doesn't it? My friend is being fed and played on her emotions . . that was the point. . that is all I mean . . sorry, I know it didn't sound right!


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#60608 - 07/12/04 03:05 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
I don't care how she thinks she feels about him, or what he does or does not do to her or for her. She shouldn't be there at all. Period. As for how long it's been going on, it should have never started. She deserves the nothing that she is getting, actually less.

My perp tried to call what she did love too. I know that she fully believed it. If Harmony is his councelor, she is nothing but a perp.

If he is in a marriage that is that bad, then there are other ways to handle the situation. Under no circumstances does his wife deserve what is being done to her, with or without Harmony's help.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60609 - 07/12/04 10:42 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by HARMONY:
Thank you, Arch:

Regardless of the dynamics of my relationship with this man, the bottom line is he is a survivor of SA. This is why I am looking for help, so I can help him when he is ready for it. I am also interested in learning as much as I can from those who have already been there.

He has no friends, no support system, retreats and isolates, and talks of suicide. I happen to love him as a friend more than anything. So I am here for help, not judgement.

Thanks for your support to me. It matters.
If you love him as a friend then stop sleeping with him. People who are sexually abused get really confused about sex, love and appropriate/healthy sexual relationships and often engage in "acting out" sexual behaviour (inappropriate sexual behaviour).

If you are sleeping with a married SA survivor (who is not married to YOU) then you are just encouraging and enabling his sexual acting out - kind of like supplying drugs to an addict. You're just enabling his addictive/compulsive behaviour.

If you truly love him like you say you do STOP sleeping with him and get him to a counsellor PRONTO.


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#60610 - 07/12/04 10:48 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeNY:
[QB] [QUOTE]we as women love it, eat it up . . gotta take care of our men . . natural instinct.
Gotta take care of our men can take many forms. Giving in to compulsive sexual acting out is NOT taking care of "your man".. Newsflash: he's NOT your man.. he's married to someone else.

What this is is weak and spineless and a characteristic of a codependent. And its not healthy for ANYONE involved. Taking care of him would be to STOP sleeping with him get him to some therapy PRONTO, tell his wife what is going on and get the hell out of the picture.

SA does NOT go away when someone has a lot of "crutches" to avoid dealing with the issue. Whether it be someone who's sexually acting out, drownign themselves in alcohol, numbing themselves with drugs, it is a temporary crutch. Only by going into the pain, getting in touch with the feelings, working through the pain, the anger, the deceit, the grief and learnign to trust again and feel safe will someone recover. THAT is taking care of someone.

P


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#60611 - 07/12/04 10:50 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Archnut:
I have empathy with Harmony as I too was labeled as a "homewrecker" in my younger life with numerous affairs with married women trying to be a man and to prove to myself that I wasnt gay.
Ok arch - thanks for the note - but you were reacting to SA and we can understand your behaviour in that context. What's Harmony's excuse?

If she too is a SA survivor then her and the guy she is sleeping with BOTH need help and BOTH need to stop sleeping around.

P


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#60612 - 07/12/04 12:48 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Archnut Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 343
Loc: United Kingdom
I have no answers only experiences.

Thats why I dont give advice as I'm usually wrong!


Archnut
"And all that was left was hope"

My Story (Triggers)
http://www.waltonhop.blogspot.com


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#60613 - 07/12/04 01:29 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
PAS, the one thing that you quoted from me, I quoted from jaywho, not Harmony. Just to be clear on that. What you said follows fine for Harmony.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60614 - 07/12/04 04:10 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
darp123 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
Harmony,

I am trying to piece together what your first post was because it was deleted. What I understand is that you are having an affair with an SA survivor and you want to help him.

I found out 18 months ago that my h of 16 yrs. was having an affair with a coworker(also had been SA) who was my H's best friend and an aquaintance of mine. I also found out the same night that my H had been SA by his brother when he was 7 yrs. old. I can't even explain the devestation and hurt that I felt on that night.

The coworker probably thought she was helping him too but they crossed the line of being friends and started an emotional affair that turned into a physical affair. Not only is my H dealing with his sexual abuse issues but he has had to deal with what he did to me and our family.

He thought that I didn't love him or care but he found out the night he told me everything that wasn't true. I have been there to help him through the flashbacks, nightmares, self-esteem issues and helped him find a therapist that works with male survivors.

One of the things my H told me several months after I found out about the a and SA was that when they slept together he felt like he was being abused again. We had stopped having sex during that time but I didn't know why.

Please take a hard look at what you are doing and the lives you are hurting. This has been the most devestating thing that has ever happened to me.

Sometime go to Survivinginfidelity.com to the "just found out" forum and read about the devestation that these betrayed spouse go through. Maybe if you read about real people and the horrible pain they go through, you will stop having an affair with a married man and see that you are not helping but hurting him and his family.

darp


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#60615 - 07/12/04 08:29 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Now that we got a lot of the ugliness out of the way, I will post a few things for thought. Since we do not know much about the survivors real situation, this is all nothing but speculation.

Is it possible that the survivor truly is in love with Harmony? Yes. Many survivors end up in bad relationships and bad marriages because they are drawn toward things that are bad for them or resemble their abuse because of what was programmed into them. Their abusers called what they did love. 80% of the time survivors were abused by people whom they knew, trusted, respected, and even loved. This programs them just like Pavlov's dogs were classically programmed and just like Skinner's (I think) operantly programmed pigeons. Their feelings become intertwined and overlap. Some even become reversed. Fear and love, sex and love, pain and love, pain and fear, trust and pain, trust and fear, sex and pain, and all kinds of other things become intertwined. This also causes the confusion which lead to the dissociation splits which occur in the mind. This causes the separations of the mind from the body and feelings. This causes all of the side effects. This causes survivors to be drawn toward bad relationships and away from good ones. This literally causes them to have strong feelings for people who are bad for them and to not have feelings toward anyone who is good for them, or fear reactions to them. It causes survivors to run away from anything that is good for them. It causes survivors to be afraid of things that are good for them. It causes the fulfillment of self-defeating prophecy. It causes isolation. It causes hyper-social activity. It causes all kinds of things. It causes us to question just how much we can even trust our own instincts and feelings, with good reason, because many times we can't. Not until we purge that programming from ourselves, with or without help from others. Could he actually be in a marriage that was brought about as a reaction to his abuse? Yes. Could he now be slowly coming away from that? Yes. He could be acting like a turtle sticking his head out of the shell to look around and then retreating back. This still gives neither one of them the right to treat his wife the way that they are. We have none of the information necessary to be able to actually try to help with any of it. Harmony, the ONLY things that you can do is get out of this relationship and direct him toward help.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60616 - 07/12/04 10:16 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
My guess is that Harmony has left this site. She pmed me about the rough treatment she got here and made some justifications about the affair. She also asked me for advice on dealing with his avoidance of her. I sent her a pm yesterday explaining that the issue of betrayal is very strong for survivors and I believed some of the reason she got so much flak about the affair is because survivors identified with the betrayal aspects of the relationship.

(I thought it was a good explanation of what may have been taking place and in no way did I attack or criticize her-- though there is plenty of reason for that.)

So far, it is unread by recipient.

Oh, well.
Ken


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#60617 - 07/12/04 10:35 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Ken, I would greatly appreciate your input on my post above yours.
Thank you.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60618 - 07/12/04 10:58 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
I know for me part of th reason I gave her hell over it was because she "made some justifications about the affair" why many times do we read things here or have lived it ourselves. Where the monster's who abused us made some justifications about the abuse. There's been a lot of post on the board over the years talking about abuse being abuse no matter how "pretty" you wrap it up and what color bow you tie on it. She was not willing to take responablity for her actions. Sad really, her actions are just like the perps we fight so hard to live through. \:\(

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#60619 - 07/13/04 03:28 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hey everyone,

It is clear that some people did identify with, and react strongly to, whatever Harmony had to say--not me, because she edited away those posts before I was able to read them. I can't say how I'd have been affected. Like many of us--Survivors and Friends/Family alike-- I deal with betrayal/trust issues. Especially in this forum where we work so hard to build and rebuild trusting, committed, loving relationships.

However--there are several new posts here, not deleted, written by people who'd like help with just that sort of relationship, and I am going to try to help some of those people now.

SAR


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#60620 - 07/13/04 11:31 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by SAR:
It is clear that some people did identify with, and react strongly to, whatever Harmony had to say
The fact that this was posted on the F&F thread which is frequented by many hurt and betrayed spouses definitely had a lot to do with the strong reactions. I cant say that I'd be too able to be compassionate towards any "other woman" I myself had suffered the pain of my spouse acting out and cheating with someone else. Indeed betrayal is a hot button for all of us, unfortunately.

P


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#60621 - 07/13/04 11:46 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Yup. Been there myself. My ex-husband wasn't an SA survivor, but his Dad had been poisoned by his own brother. I'm sure this contributed to my ex's "acting out," but ya know what? I DO NOT CARE! The fact remains, when you take a vow - it has to mean something sacred.

On the other hand - I do not think we need to act rude and aggressive when we, as a community, show our anger and displeasure.

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#60622 - 07/13/04 03:54 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
MikeNY:
You asked for some feedback on your post above. If I can distill what I think the gist of it is:
Quote:
This causes survivors to be drawn toward bad relationships and away from good ones. This literally causes them to have strong feelings for people who are bad for them and to not have feelings toward anyone who is good for them, or fear reactions to them. It causes survivors to run away from anything that is good for them. It causes survivors to be afraid of things that are good for them. It causes the fulfillment of self-defeating prophecy.
My take on this process is one where the survivor has self-esteem problems ("I'm damaged goods", "I'm only good for one thing", "It's my fault that the abuse happened, I didn't stop it, I went back" etc.)

A few possible scenerios: The person expects that he is unlovable so he doesn't try (isolation, avoidance of relationships); he expects rejection so he provokes or engages in obnoxious behavior that causes the rejection he is expecting; he believes that because he is inferior, damaged, inadequate, screwed up, he has to seek out people who are obviously damaged or with many problems; he can't trust or have a loving relationship so he has to sabotage it; and other variations on that theme.

This is why it is difficult to do relationship therapy without addressing the underlying sense of inadequacy. No matter what the survivor is told that is good about him, he won't believe it because old tapes/>

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#60623 - 07/14/04 10:18 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:

This causes survivors to be drawn toward bad relationships and away from good ones. This literally causes them to have strong feelings for people who are bad for them and to not have feelings toward anyone who is good for them, or fear reactions to them. It causes survivors to run away from anything that is good for them. It causes survivors to be afraid of things that are good for them. It causes the fulfillment of self-defeating prophecy.



I think a lot of people suffer this - I too have a past history of picking people who really weren't a good bet as far as a long term relationship, mostly becuse I didnt think I was "good enough" for the guys with more on the ball.. I wasn't "pretty enough".. I was "too fat", "too this, too that" (insert whatever put down my dad inserted in my brain throughout my childhood). When I finally met someone with the same issues as me I could RELATE - it just felt kind of "normal" to sit around and grouse about our dysfunctional homes and our insane parents...

However, I also chose people that did not work on their issues, and neither did I, which led to some pretty unhealthy and immature relationship dynamices. Sure enough, the relationships with those guys broke up, leading me to reinforce the belief that I wasn't good enough for ANYONE.

While I did not grow up with SA in my history, I did I grow up with an alcoholic, angry, depressed parent and a wickedly tight codependent other parent who failed to protect her kids from their father's wrath.. so who could blame me? I felt and still do sometimes feel pretty inadequate.

Its only when I met my current partner who was an old FRIEND, despite the effects of SA we have much more of a relationship than we've ever had with anyone else and we are BOTH committed to healing, together, and individually.

Quote:


This is why it is difficult to do relationship therapy without addressing the underlying sense of inadequacy. No matter what the survivor is told that is good about him, he won't believe it because old tapes/>

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#60624 - 07/14/04 10:57 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Ken,
Thank you for your response. What I truly wanted was your opinion having to do with the classical conditioning and the operant conditioning. What I am saying is that the classical conditioning occurs when the event is actually taking place and that the operant conditioning is from the reinforcement schedule of the abuse and all of the questions which repeatedly go through the survivor's mind. This resulting in overlapping, mixed, even reversed feelings toward various stimuli. This programming is what causes ALL of the automatic responses.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60625 - 07/14/04 03:10 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Mike:
True enough (your de>

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#60626 - 07/14/04 03:45 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Ken,
Thank you. This supports exactly what I have come to understand is going on.

Or instead of the carrot scenario, "I want the things that are good for me instead of the things that I am drawn toward that are bad for me." The mind needs to be re-trained to actually override these programmed feelings. Such as replacing the programming that draws people toward bad relationships with people who they have strong "feelings" for with actually re-programming toward good relationships with people who are good for them. I say this without getting into the dynamics of the reinforcement that occurs with repeat bad relationships that causes the programming to become even stronger. I am talking about actually re-programming the mind to be drawn toward things that are good and re-programming the feelings which are attached to that.

Ex. Fear and love become intertwined. Fear of love pushes a survivor away from people who truly care about them who are good for the survivor. The surivor literally repels good things. Feelings of love toward things that should be feared draws them toward people and things that are bad for them. Literally making it so that the survivor cannot truly trust their own instincts or feelings until they have re-programmed them.

Simplified, this is half of the "Wobble" or "Come here - go away dance". The other half being the re-programming. I realize that the wobble won't even start without the survivor recognizing the good things that they want are different from the things that they are comfortable, familiar with, and have feelings toward.

Plus, the various hormones in the body can create a physical chemical addiction on top of the psychological one. Addictions to any of the chemicals related to emotions.

Ex. Fear and love become intertwined. Adrenaline is released during episodes of fear. A addiction to fear or anything that releases adrenaline can be created due to it feeling good because of adrenaline's connection to love. The same example can be used with any of the chemicals that are released causing multiple variations: Depression, Anxiety, etc. Usually more than one thing is intertwined, ex. guilt, fear, extacy, happiness, shame, and love.

Mental abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and sexual abuse all involve extremely similar forms of both classical and operant conditioning with very slight variations.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60627 - 07/14/04 04:10 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Ken,
Your post are very insiteful. I find the way you and Mike have said ring a true tone with me. I have stoped smoking very resently, just a few months. And I still have times I want one. I know it's not just my mind being use to me smoking and thats why. So I keep telling myself it's just in your mind you really dont want one. \:D So far so good.

james

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#60628 - 07/14/04 10:44 PM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Since this thread is far different from how it was started, I began a new thread to continue the dialog. See "Conditioned Responses".
Ken


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#60629 - 07/15/04 11:53 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Archnut:
So the support I offered was wrong?

Im not very good at these deep, intellictual (I cant even spell it) discussions

Archnut
"And all that was left was hope"

My Story (TRIGGERS)
http://www.waltonhop.blogspot.com
There was nothing wrong with offering support for her. Supporting her abusing his wife is a completely different subject. What you said supported her abusing his wife. Supporting something that hurts someone else is wrong.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#60630 - 07/16/04 10:35 AM Re: NEW! NEED HELP DESPERATELY
Archnut Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 343
Loc: United Kingdom
Story of my fuckin life that is!

Youd make a great diplomat

Archnut
"And all that was left was hope"

My Story (TRIGGERS)
http://www.waltonhop.blogspot.com


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