Newest Members
PaulnMA, andrewmartin, Aurigny, Luther, LuckyCharm
12252 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
closerthenveins (26), Nvolpicelli (24), Sven (19)
Who's Online
0 registered (), 53 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12252 Members
73 Forums
63112 Topics
441358 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#59418 - 05/02/04 05:50 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Caro
Quote:
I just wanted to give April a little support here. I believe this forum has been created for partners and in that sense this is the proper place to release emotions (and strong ones too). It can be tough for SA survivors to hear them but still they are part of us partners, we need to express them too. What would happen otherwise ? We bottle up the emotions inside and at some point we turn them violently against the very same men we love and try to support.
It was never my intention to devalue April's emotions and feelings over her 'betrayal' - that was her genuine feeling and I can't take that away from here - unfortunately.
And this IS the place to express those feelings, but anyone dealing with Survivors has to be prepared for a rough ride, not from us although we do tend to "tell it like it is". Just about everything to do with us is both unpredictable and hard to deal with.

So you MUST express your fears, emotions, hopes and love; just as we should try to do the same.

I haven't seen April reply yet, and I truly hope that we haven't offended her with our 'defensive' replies. I hope that she has read all our replies and is thinking hard about her relationship with her Survivor, and hopefully what she can do to support and help a man she loves.

For me the thought of losing my wife was more than I could bear, which is why I didn't tell her ANYTHING for 25 years. And when I did the thought that any minute I was likely to be "out on my arse" was unbearable. I didn't have a clue what her response was likely to be, and that's incredibly sad after 25 years.

So, April, if you're still here and reading this we are on your side, we will support and help you. But we won't put sugar on the 'bad stuff'

SAR,
Your reply say's everything I think my wife feels and does, that's how her reactions to my past, and present, behaviours seem to be conveyed to me.
Neither of 'recognised' my history until I disclosed. I knew my history, but not what it was doing to me. She only knew that over the years since we'd married I'd become distant, argumentitive and generally obnoxious, but she hadn't the slightest knowledge why.
The pair of us lived in oblivion to the facts, but now we can act on those facts and look forward to better times.
And it's honesty that makes that possible.


Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#59419 - 05/03/04 03:18 AM Re: No excuses for infidelity
Tribear Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
Excuses are not all I hear on this forum, or I wouldn't come here. Many posts here are not about infidelity at all, and I think that needs acknowledged too. This place does good in many ways.

Ed


Top
#59420 - 05/03/04 02:48 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
April and others,

I too in no way wish to minimize the damage done by infidelity, which I consider to be a worthless, degrading act on all parties. I speak as one who was "acting out" with married men (even before my memories came back) and carry a boatload of shame for the women and families I willingly and knowingly helped betray.

But there are two people at fault.

Yes, I chose to behave the way I did, but so did the other person. They knew what they were doing. One of them raped me, and I not only feel guilty about hurting (again, not my fault) his wife and children, but I fear for them as well. A man who rapes, rapes. I fear for everyone involved with him.

Were they abused? I don't know. If they were, it adds to the dimension of their decision, but they STILL chose to cheat.

Would I do it again? No. Never. Even without being raped, Im carrying enough shame to live with. Your words cut me and we've never met. I feel like I did it to you.

But the other person carried responsability too. More than likely, they were lied to or perhaps they just didn't ask. They may have known your partner was spoken for, but just not cared. But they carry a degree of responsability.

The final decision, though, was with your partner. And he did the damage. I feel your pain and, even though we've never met, since I engaged in that behavior, I feel guilty for him. I'm sorry his actions have caused you so much pain.

I'm rambling, so I'm going to shut up now.

Peace and love,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#59421 - 05/03/04 04:14 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Hi people

This may sound like I'm "making excuses" for things, but it's really the way I see it.

To me, from what I have learned, it seems that "acting out" is completely seperate from the feelings of committment of the relationship. Geez, I wonder if I can explain what's in my head...I'll try. As in anything else in my life, I can probably best describe it in terms of chocolate!!

If I eat chocolate every time I'm stressed, or "triggered" by something, it doesn't mean I don't love my husband...even if he says something like, "If you really love me you won't ever even look at chocolate." It may be what I "do", or what my brain is conditioned to "do" when a particular thing surfaces. Every single particle of my existence runs straight there at that particular stimulus. It has nothing to do with my husband, with eating, with love, with committment...with anything except what that particular trigger does to ME. The "fatitude" that results from it is not pleasant, nor the guilt from disappointing someone, but it doesn't stop the insatiable desire the next time that trigger happens by. All I can do is try to find a different way to deal with it, which takes time and patience.

"Acting out" looks much the same to me. For some, it manifests itself in sexual things. For some, it's self harm. For some, extreme anger, for some food. Yeah, sexual things seem like betrayal to someone who isn't the survivor. To the survivor, that's not what the intent is. Then comes the extreme guilt, and the "I'm so disgusting" syndrome. It's not their fault. It takes a lot to un-do programming that takes place at early ages, like it or not. Not that people should just say "oh well...my bad"... and dismiss it, but as in any other acting out behavior, it takes some work, time, understanding, patience... and more time. I FIRMLY believe that foundations can be rebuilt. It's not easy, but it can be done.

I'm also not saying that people shouldn't be responsible for their actions. It does hurt when it feels like a relationship has been compromised. I haven't heard one guy say yet that they were thrilled to pieces and so proud that they "acted out" in ANY way.

I'm not trying to minimize the pain that a companion "should" or "should not" feel. It's just that my perception is a little different I guess. I love the example that Lady Theo and Dave's (Lloydy's) wife have shown. They are succeeding...because of unconditional love.

I believe it's the only way.

Hugs,

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

Top
#59422 - 05/03/04 05:21 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
in the group therapy I go to, and in other areas of work I do with Survivors, one thing took a long time to sink in.

The things we do are driven by the same forces.
I've spoken at length with self harmers, drug users, alcoholics, over-eaters, porn addicts, serial womanisers and other guys like me who sought sex with other men. All different behaviours.

Some of these are easier for a partner to accept, there's no infidelity in too many pizzas and beers.
But the force that drives us there is uncannily the same.

I've described before the planning that I used to put into my acting out - and that makes it easy to think that I had a concious process that I could turn off at any time. But the truth is I can't. I say "can't" because I still don't fully trust myself if I allowed the process to kick in, so I have gone back beyond the 'start' point.
In the past once it got started I would plan my acting out, and from then on build up levels of excitement and anticipation until I was on an adreniline high that was capable of making me completely irrational. The high was better than cocaine.
Why else would I give bj's in public places, just hiding behind a corner of an alleyway ?
That has nothing to do with infidelity.

I hear exactly the same process from guys who cut themselves and do all kind of dysfunctional behaviours.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#59423 - 05/03/04 06:55 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Just wanted to add that emotions just ARE ! One can be angry, sad, in rage and still love unconditionnally. It's not one or the other !
This is what I was talking above ! The necessity for us partners to have room for both inside us.
I am glad Theo and Lloydy have added their comments.
This post is really developping interesting comments. Keep posting ! \:\)

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

Top
#59424 - 05/03/04 07:17 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
April Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 10
Hi All:

Thanks for your posts. They always help.

I did not mean to offend anyone or minimize the causes of acting out. I come to this site to try and find some common thread and understanding as to how this can happen.

I have been struggling for eight months. I don't know that I have it in me to look past this. I don't think that it is my pride. I think it is more of an insecurity issue.

Perhaps I am too much of a romantic. In my heart, I feel that if there were true love, the compulsions for acting out would have ignored.

It makes it really hard to believe that your partner loves you when they can perform these acts and then come home, look you in the eye and tell you they love you.

It makes one feel that they are dealing with someone that has no conscience.

I love my husband and believe deep down that he loves me, but it is really hard not to take this personally.

I know that his childhood caused his acting out. I see his shame, regret and remore. He wishes that it never happened, as do I.

It is nice to see that there are people in here who continue to try and make the relationship work.

I hope that I can be as strong. I keep waiting for time to heal the wounds, but they keep swelling up again. Hopefully, tomorrow will be a better day.

Thanks for providing hope.

April


Top
#59425 - 05/04/04 01:05 AM Re: No excuses for infidelity
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
april,
true love offers the strength to keep going in the union of two soulmates, but it cannot sever the programming of the past. i know what my negative coping did to lady theo and i will carry that the rest of my life. i will also carry the knowledge that she was able to see beyond the behavior into my heart. there was a point at which i still had control last summer, though at the time i was not aware of it. it was the point at which that first step in pushing the button for surf porn that i could have changed the outcome. i did not know i had a choice then, april, i was just trying to run from the pain that was overwhelming me. now, i can see at what point i have a choice. it took me a year of constantly working through it with lady theo's help and my therapist, but i can see now where i do have the power to make a choice before it gets too bad to where i am out of control. three times in the last few months that i can recall being at that point but somehow, i was able to make the right choice. i still fall, april, but i keep trying. true love gives strength, not miracles in a magical sense. your husband's remorse is there for your eyes and heart to see and feel. it is ultimately the choice of both of you. try to understand though that the drives we have are not about reacting to the current moment in terms of the current relationship, it is about reacting to the darkness that is still so very real and so very "now" iin our subconscious. the darkness is a ever present reality for survivors and that is what we are reacting against, not our current partners. i wish you peace, april, and hope for you both to find the strength to continue within each other's arms. it takes time and mutual effort, but it can be done, april. take care. if you need to, you may pm me with any questions.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
#59426 - 05/04/04 03:47 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Lloydy:
The things we do are driven by the same forces. I've spoken at length with self harmers, drug users, alcoholics, over-eaters, porn addicts, serial womanisers and other guys like me who sought sex with other men. All different behaviours.

Some of these are easier for a partner to accept, there's no infidelity in too many pizzas and beers. But the force that drives us there is uncannily the same.

*stuff snipped*

Why else would I give bj's in public places, just hiding behind a corner of an alleyway ?
That has nothing to do with infidelity.

This could indeed be expanded to ANY "escape" behaviour that is harmful but is glossed over, excused, enabled or rationalized. Theoretically, infidelity, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, or any other escape behaviour is pretty much the same damn thing - they all result from people using them to mask emotional pain, and they can wreak major havoc on peoples lives, and the lives of people around them.

The hardest thing with these escape behaviours is when people engaged in them are still in denial about their impact on themselves, on others, on relationships, etc.

Its one thing if the event happened and is now stopped, and the survivor is actively involved in healing (therapy or whatever) , but if it is still happening, and it does not look like there is much healing going on, then I could see the experience of SA as an explanation/ rationalization for infidelity indeed appearing as an "excuse", and I dont know if I would put up with that either.

I grew up the child of a survivor of physical and psychological abuse (maybe more, who knows) who spent many years as an alcoholic and and later on, pre>

Top
#59427 - 05/04/04 05:09 PM Re: No excuses for infidelity
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
pas,
if the negative coping is continuing at full speed, then i concur as a survivor myself that such lies and deceit are devastating. if, however, the actions were isolated i time but the struggle continues to face it and stop it, then bringing up the past is more devastating for the relationship. this is what you already stated quite clearly, i was just wantiing to respond to offer the perspective of one male survivor who fell but continues to try.

no matter the content of the escape avenue (alcohol, sex, etc), when it leads to secrecy, deceit, and shame, it is mutually destructive. last summer i could not discern that i had a clear choice, this was the escape i used for so many years in one form or another to survive. two things happened last summer. i learned how devastating the secrecy was any kind of escape behavior, no matter the content. i also learned that i had a choice, which i now do my best to exercise.

pas, you stated that so long as the male survivor is trying to overcome the negative escape patterns that there should be support as well as addressing the valid anger over the crossed boundaries. this is true. the only thiing i wanted to convey here in response was that if the male survivor was trying but still struggling with the desire to escape the same way (one statement here: infidelity is dangerous, once the behavior is faced it is up to the survivor to not do it again, but the desire will still be there...once we know we are responsible to accept what that entails to the best of our ability). two things must be happening for this to work. the survivor must not be condemned for past behavior, though we should be held accountable to a point and both work through the justifiable anger. both partners deserve to be validated in their emotions. if, however, the past is continuously held over the head of the survivor, then no progress can be made. what gave me strength this past year was that though the initial month after the disclosure was very awkward for both of us and i felt as though every detail of my behavior was being questioned (it was not, of course, just my distorted thinking), it eventually evened out and i was able to work through the reasons for what i did and establish ways to prevent them in the future. yes, the behavior hurt her deeply, but she believed in me and did not hang the summer on my neck. i saw this and felt this and developed the strength to continue fighting. i still fall sometimes, and i tell her when i do, but as you said, pas, this is what it is all about. it is that dedication to each other that is important to the long term strength and stability of the relationship. suspicious minds will kill a relationship, as will secrecy and hidden shame. if either is present, then there is no way a relationship can survive if it is not faced and elimiinated.

one of the most difficult things i had to accept about myself was allowing myself to be failible. i never considered myself perfect, i just pushed myself to not make mistakes. i still struggle with this, but i am slowly giving myself permission to make mistakes. the key is that when i know something is destructive, i am responsible for tryiing to short circuit the pattern. i can only do this if i am aware of it.

i feel as though this has turned into some rambling bit of nonsense, but i hope it does make sense. we are responsible for what we understand. culpability is only possible when it is understood what is going on and it cintinues nonetheless. i am now fully responsible for short circuiting the surfiing behavior by any productive means possible. if, however, i become so overwhelmed from memories i have a right to expect that i would not be condemned as a person, partner, or man by the one i love. no excuses, the pain would still be there, but we would hope and expect our partners would still be there as well to work through it together. take care.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.