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#58319 - 03/17/04 01:50 AM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
gryffindor Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/03
Posts: 131
Loc: St. Charles, Illinois
Dear Sammi,

You are a wonderful, caring person. In spite of your health problems you have been blessed with more energy than anyone I've ever known. I'm not surprised that you're running on empty because you have devoted your energy, compassion and empathy to everyone except yourself. Please hang on. I am so proud to know you. You are not a common, ordinary woman. You are unique, a beautiful, intelligent, uncommon woman. Please pm me anytime. I'm sending you a pm with a couple of suggestions. Keep yourself safe.

Lots of love,
Mary

_________________________
"Where there's a will, there's a way." American Folk Saying

"Had I not fallen, I could not have arisen; had I not sat in darkness, I would not have recognized the light." Midrash Tehillim Ch. 22

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#58320 - 03/17/04 02:21 AM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
My dear Supportive Friends and Family,
Thank you so dearly for the kind words of support for my bleeding soul. Your words, all of them from each of you have helped to soothe my pain -- a much needed soothing.... so Hugs to each of you.
Today I am sure I drove more than a few people a tad nuts... because I was in such a space that repeatedly I asked who ever would give me the time of a moment if hubby2 was a perpetrator in their eyes or view. I was so suprised to hear them say no... no they dont believe that he is a perp or that he would re commit -- I asked those who know the details of his crime. AND I and hubby agree that it was a perpetration and crime.
... So Ken yes he does admit that he committed an act of perpetration. Yet during some conversations when it is more focused on his situation and healing as a "victim" he then leans more toward that he was a victim in this situation --- but then goes on to quickly attach that he is an adult now and is responsible for the choices he made and that he hurt this female and his daughters and family. So I geuss I get two messages in this... perhaps it is a situation of both?... but deep down I think of all the years of my therapy and how my belief is that once the line is crossed to perpetrator -- a perpetrator is what is first and foremost, vicitim is is secondary.... am I wrong in that thinking?
I will PM you Ken with our info for your help.
So today as I tried to unswirl and pray that no one flush while I was spinning the bowl of shit in my head .... am I just feeling very victimized by him, unresolved anger at his action and that is why I am more focusing on him being a perp? Not allowing him the much needed room to heal himself? By placing my own expectations of how to heal on him tho I dont speak them? or say any ultimatium bullshit (thats unfair and not right). Am I just so damn biased as a survivor that I have not given him room and reasonable time to deal with this as he needed ? sort of the "I want what I want and I want it now" syndrome?
I am taking steps to care for me along this way.. I did break down and ask doc for some pain killers ( my leg is dying and it is very painful i've been holding off to try and keep my brains about me, but need to hide the pain so I can walk and exercise its a shitty cycle too) -- I called off a critical meeting to stay in bed and just give my body some much needed sleep -- then fed my self -- played with my 9 yr old kiddo that I babysit for a bit each day --- watched the boob tube, and put off even more meetings just to not think about the whole world hunger shit I need to solve (housing issues but you get the idea) -- tommorrow is a new day to work on it some more.
I've spent a long time trying to "vomit out" the negativity messages -- but they keep crawling in some how ? some times I wonder how much of my much needed meds that have a side effect of depression create a physical battle that allows for negative messages to enter easier, perhaps making it easier for them to sneak in?
My creativity that I work on is definetly in my community work in many levels and I truly enjoy the folks I work with who are fun and we do laff a lot yet work for the good of society as a whole, successes definetly outweight the short term stresses attached to it.
And hey if anyone calls him a jerk its A ok with me -- hell inside I certainly have called him far worse .....
Theo, remember I shared that he was going back to face his c**t of a supposed mother -- and I wonder if what i am getting the brunt of is the fall out from that visit, she has called him on several occassions attacking me personally --- I have been amazed at his strength to stand her down and defend me to her?.. Honor in that, but huge fall out stress after the fact as you know, nightmares etc.... but he isnt sharing the info, I cant push it but have offered to listen if he wants to talk about it --- his sisters are now pushing him to some how but in favor of the c**t not in favor of his healing --- perhaps I am getting fall out of a phase of needign to hate women? The pendulumn syndrome until he can return to center? Am I just not being patient and understanding of this much needed expression and growth period?
Mary, your words have come as a prayer for my bruised and batterd soul. Thank you so much for sharing --- and I know that you share because you too have experienced this pain ---
I stopped a long time ago trying to fix him, heal him, direct his healing etc... to let him do this on his own -- in the back ground my mind and soul at times scream at the horror of watching him experience the very things that I too did to get thru to my own survivor status -- I am not sure which is more painful, experiencing the healing process or watchign some one who is so loved and so full of potential to achieve greatness and fulfillment of their lives bear the pain. -- for me the stereo gets a lot of very loud play -- as I pace and clean non existent dust bunnies trying to organize what is impossible to rationalize or organize.
Quote:
You are a lot more than a wife. You have an identity other than one which defines you only in relationship to the man you are married to or to any other man. You need to find that girl/woman and love her. She's you. You need attention from yourself. You need to take care of you. The health of your body, mind, and soul cries out for it because they are starving. Nurture yourself.
I have been trying to think of what my identity has been beyond wife and momma -- currently I work in my community as a leader for housing issues, homelessness, lead abatement, substandard housing, dispersing HUD funds for housing & social needs, kiddo social programs, tutoring, child care for a friend, have in the past worked in health care for about 10 yrs, I garden as a hobby, do support info for heart info, support single parents, sex education and my biggest and most favorite is the local politics and my baby of all babies --- a city wide crime committee (**ok gonna brag here we just had an animal ordinance that we wrote enacted at our state level after 3 years on our city books and my friend being mauled while i was there so it was a big success for us**) -- in the community folks pretty much know that if they are too scared to present to intimidating reps that I am the one who will ask the blunt hard questions to find resolve for all. Martha Stewart probably would have hated to have me on her jury (oops did I say that outloud? LOL)
I geuss I adopted this attitude as a kiddo growing up that I was gonna get the beating whether I did the crime or not so I may as well be the one who can take the hits now...????
so what would I rename myself as? --- My birth name means "Helper of Mankind" --- Maybe I am a Thorny Rose? I do love to garden and roses are my pet favorite ....???? and yet my friends tell me I have more love and compassion and am a softy --- hmmmm perhaps I am the bleeding heart totally meant in a good way?
How about some suggestions for a new name if Wifey1 doesnt do justice anymore?
Scot, you know as many other survivors on this site know his pain... know how much it can bend the psyche into something that is not all representative of the true goodness inside -- a distorted representation of WHO one is and what they stand for.... I have faith that he can heal --- I truly do, I know it can happen....
Quote:
He needs to see value in others as well. And maybe laying down the law will kick-start him into making the changes HE needs to make.
does this mean I need to give him an ultimatum to get his shit together? do I give him a time limit? and if so how long? I think this is not a reality as healing is not something one can do in a set time limit -- or am I missing the point in this.... I know I need to take my needs into consideration first in this --- but here is my kunundra and maybe its just bullshit avoidance on my part -- and dont be afraid to tell me if you think it is.... he was so supportive and remains there thru every step of my own struggles as a survivor.... dont I owe him some sort of respect and time to heal as he has given me ? or did he blow that opportunity when he crossed the line screwing that female?
and SAR --- oh my oh my .... is there anything that you shared that didnt ring truth in my own private thoughts thru this hell called being a partner? --
Quote:
it's not anger AT them, it's anger FOR me... the flip side of the "he is weak, he's not doing anything" issue is the one about myself, the one that goes, "And look at all the stuff I've done, I managed to cope with this and that and HIS shit on top of it, and no one was checking on me, I just did it..."
You're so right in the anger FOR me!! Who gets angry for US? Who keeps us connected and blessed with support for each other? In probably the loneliest fucking job in this whole healing bullshit? I want someone to grab me up, hold me and tell me that the world will return to its original axis....
Quote:
there are lots of people who can't do it and you are not one of them.
and that goes for each and every one of us who come here for support, survivor and supporter alike... we are blessed with each other.

and Dave this is so right and already put into place the thinking however is still in a toilet spin... please dont flush yet! \:D
Quote:
What's the answer ? f****d if I know ! - the answers have to be yours.
I would suggest that you get out of it all for a while if you can, just long enough to get yourself grounded again and think clearly. Maybe that's not practical ? so keep you distance from hubby for a while. Tell him to stay away until YOU'VE had a chance to think. Don't fight and rant, it's doing you no good is it ?

What you need to do is THINK, not fight. Only then can you hope to make the right decisions, whatever they might be.
Ken I am going to share some answers with you on this posting as I know you work with perps also -- a very important part of this work to stop sexual abuse --- just my opinion i havent seen much about the healing or maintenance of perps so as not to reoffend -- hopefully this will help others to gain some insight as well as share some valuable information and thanks again gang!
Quote:
"Can he be saved?" Probably, but he needs to want to change. If he doesn't, he won't.
He wobbles, while he takes complete responsibility in his actions of injuring the female & Others his own victim status gets mixed in here too.... is this an either or situation? Is he able to work both issues at once or is it work the perp issues first then the survivor issues? Is there protocol?
Quote:
If he thinks what he did was no big deal or he did not cause harm, or that he is not going to do it again without the right help, he is at greater risk to do it again.
He thinks what he did is a HUGE deal and is very disgusted with himself states that he knows he did harm, at times tho states that the female did harm also to him? ... he continues attempts at therapy to prevent recommitting the sexual addictive behavior something that he truly believes was a "gateway" that allowed for the perpetration to happen ....

Gang its good to be back -- its a sad state that I have not been able to bring myself to share more of what the last few months have held in this healing or fucking mind swirl --- you're a superior bunch and this heart thanks you -- I will sleep easier and yes even drug free ---
Peace and Hugs for All, Sammy


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#58321 - 03/17/04 02:56 AM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
sammi,
as always, my freind, there is much in what you say. i wish i could take the time and respond to it all. that will have to wait till thursday at least because of my academics. i would like to share just a little now, though.

i do recall what your shared with me about him and his honor and strength in reference to his own perp. i will respond more in depth later (i am totally exhausted). what i just wanted to say now is that despite his points pf honor and strength, his inconsistency points to something more important. you have a responsibility to those you care and love, true, but you have a responsibilty to yourself as well. you can never turn your back on someone you love, but sometimes you have to stand aside in some respects. ultimatums are the wrong choice, endless talking is counter-productive, touching his soul...if he allows you to, is the most effective means of helping him. he has to make the call on that score, sammi, about letting someone in to touch his soul. until he can do that, he will keep spinnig his wheels. i keep struggling with my own demons, but i really try to continue forward. i also struggle with not identifying too closely with the victim mentality. he seems to be victim and perp, not a survivor, yet. there is a difference, as you well know. more later. take care, sammi.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#58322 - 03/17/04 03:13 PM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Sammi,

You've asked me a direct series of questions. They're hard for me to answer. For all the details you've shared, and for all the honesty that comes through in your posts, I'm not in your head. I'm not you. I can't say what's best for you.

I know what's not best for you, sweetie, and that's beating yourself up over something that isn't in your hands. Your husband has to be the one to change, and for all the good he has done for you and been to you, he is hurting you right now. He is hurting your family now. He needs to change this behavior, if not for himself, but for you and yours.

The hardest part of the whole situation for me to reconcile is - geez, I don't know how to put this without hurting or offending you (which I don't want to do, believe me) - the fact that he has perpetrated. On the one hand, one incident doesn;t make you an evil person. It makes you a person that decided to do an evil thing. Perhaps a deviation in his behavior, perhaps not. I don't know the details (again, and I'm grateful this time), but what age was the person he abused? Was it classic "abuse" or perhaps a simple "crossing over" of a line? I'm splitting hairs at this, but it's important to see where his head was at in this situation. Did he INTEND to "abuse" this person? Was it simply a moment of weakness? Does he regret it? DOES HE PUT HIMSELF IN THE VICTIM'S SHOES? This is the key question, because, no matter how much he says he regrets the action, no matter how much he was abused as a child, he NEEDS to have the empathy and the realization for how much damage he may have done this person. He NEEDS to realize this action wasn't done in a vacuum. My own situation, well, it started with reletively "minor" stuff, and if it had just been this "stuff," I'd still be dealing with that. Add on top the other crapola and it became worse, but JUST the minor stuff changed me for life.

And, I'd be less than honest if I didn't say this, I see how you are feeling, and I hear your side of it, and I'm not optimistic. I am saying this in the way you see him treating you. He seems oblivious to your needs, he seems to be emotionally abusive, and he seems to be taking your concerns less than seriously. It appears to me that he doesn't care about how his behavior affects you and your child(ren? Sorry. My mind's not in a happy place right now and the memory's like a sieve!). This shows me that he is very wrapped up in the "poor me" syndrome and will not even begin to consider his actions unless there's a step toward making him face concrete consequences. As if criminal prosecution and jail time (?) isn't enough!

So, yes, I feel (my opinion and any of the experts can feel free to critique me. I don't have "Ph.D" or "M.D." after my name) that you need to TELL him how this has made you feel, any CONCERNS you may have now for your well-being and the well-being of your kids, and set forth a deadline for him to TAKE STEPS AND CORRECT these things. And yes, tell him that there WILL be consequences if he doesn't do them. Most importantly, follow through with the consequences. Yes, it's hard, but I don't see any other way of waking him up and making him aware of what EXACTLY he's done.

This is hard for me to say, because I know you love him. I know you see much good in him. But I see what you've written and I don't see the kind of man worth putting up this crap for. And, again, I'd be lying if I didn't say this, it's hard for me to sympathise with someone whose offended. I know, there but for the grace of God, but despite how I've f**ked over my OWN life, I've never hurt anyone else willingly and it's something I fear in me because of what the m***********s have done and what I hear about abusers. I DO fear this in me, and it's hard to see when someone crosses the line that there's anything to be sympathetic toward. But people DO make mistakes, and I hope in his case it IS an aberration.

I know I'm longwinded, and I've probably aliented you, but you asked a question. I want what's best for YOU Sammi, because I see the kind of person you are. I know the heart you have. I've felt your love towards me and everyone else at this site. It pains me to see you in such pain. I care about YOU, sister. I want what's best for you.

I hope you know that.

And, whetever you decide to do, I'll be here for you still.

Peace and love, Sammi. I do care.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#58323 - 03/17/04 04:05 PM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Sammy it's good to see you in a better place.

Maybe laying down the law doesn't need to be about time or deadlines, but about some hard and fast rules for right now... what is always unacceptable no matter what he is feeling, what behaviors you can not tolerate, the sort of minimum level of effort you need him to put forward if he's going to be around you. Not trying to accelerate his healing, just getting him to occupy the space he's in right now in the healthiest way he knows. For example, tell him you won't be around if all he wants to do is criticize and be hateful, he's got to do that somewhere else.

I have more to say but not right now

peace
SAR


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#58324 - 03/17/04 04:25 PM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
P.s. to an already longwinded post,

Sammi, as someone who's walked down the path of suicide, I'm glad you didn;t do it. I'm glad you;re still here, and I celebrate that you are a wonderful person who has the strength to see that suicide is NEVER the answer in these cases.

Sister, I've almost hanged myself in a bathroom stall. I was actually choking myself to death when I realized that this was such a tawdry end. Look into methods? I WAS there and it should've scared Hell out of me. Unfortunately, I still struggle with it on occasion, but it's only a stray thought or two now and then.

I've seen the pain for those left behind. I've LIVED the guilt and heartache. Such a legacy you don't want to leave your loved ones. And you are destined for such greatness, sweetie, I can tell. This is not hollow praise. You've survived so much and you've grown so much, I can SEE it.

If you ever get that close again, Sammi, I want you to promise me you'll GET HELP RIGHT AWAY. I don't want to lose someone else to suicide when it's preventable.

I mean it. I care too much to lose you.

Peace and love, dear sister,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#58325 - 03/17/04 05:12 PM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Don't we have an AMAZING community????

To all of you - especially Sammi - you have touched me so deeply by your honesty & integrity!!!

And Sammi - I love the idea that you are thinking of a new name: oddly enough, in Jewish theology, taking a new name is considered by some to be a method of achieving "re-turn" and "re-pentence" in order to become Whole & at peace again.

Hang in there, You! You have brought out so much good in the rest of us!!!

Hugs!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#58326 - 03/17/04 06:57 PM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
On the subject of bias/victimization: Yes, being a survivor may give you a different perspective on your problems with hubby, but many partners have expectations that their survivor-partners see as unreasonable, get frustrated when their partners demand time and space for themselves, get angry when betrayed. Perhaps as a survivor, you are better able to empathize with the other people he's hurt. Or you take it more personally. But he has hurt you as a partner and that would be an issue for you no matter what, and it deserves addressing, you shouldn't have to feel that your anger about this hurt is biased or a result of your own abuse.

Dishonesty and breaking promises are big BIG issues for me--I grew up in an place where promises were made and broken all the time and we were expected to "cover up" our problems in public, which I saw as dishonesty. Now my boyfriend knows about me and lying, and he knows why. So when I say the lies hurt me more than anything else he did, it means something special to me, but is that a statement that only another survivor would make? I don't think so. Is it only because of my own abuse history that I tell him that? Probably not. Was it irrational anger over feeling victimized again that made me tell him that everyone, including him, who's ever been close to me has let me down? Well, yes. And it was not really right of me to say. But that last one is about me and my expectations of others and of him as a partner. I've decided to give him a second chance, but I'm also better than I was before about being clear about my expectations, and he needs to know about me that I don't easily forgive a broken promise and I probably won't again. If you feel like you need to keep your problems with his problems on a low level to get your "survivor bias" out of the picture, then keep it low but don't dismiss all your hurt like this.

Yes, he deserves support from you, time and space and no judgment, when he's dealing with his past. When he's dealing with decisions he's made that have affected your life together, he only deserves these things if he wants to give you what you deserve as well--answers and reassurance, honesty, real attempts at changing and healing... because if he's going to get compassion from you as a partner, he needs to be your partner. Notice I said if he wants to give you those things, he may want to and not be able to, or he may be giving them to you but not really give a shit about it...again these are things that only you know.

that might really be it for now.
SAR


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#58327 - 03/17/04 07:37 PM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
gryffindor Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/03
Posts: 131
Loc: St. Charles, Illinois
Dear Sammi,

I am so relieved that you are feeling more like your amazing self again. You really are a community leader. You are far from "common." If it were not for people like yourself, this country would come to a screeching halt. Give yourself a great big hug. You deserve it.

I told you in my last post that I would PM you. Well, I had almost fininshed the PM when bad weather cut the satellite connection. The PM was completely lost. Now, I'm glad I didn't send it because you don't need my suggestion. Your strength of mind and high energy levels are truly outstanding.

As far as Hubby is concerned, if my husband committed a "perp" it would crush me and overwhelm me with shame. The situation would confront me with very strong paradoxical feelings similar to yours. The only difference is that my husband has never been SAed. I think your husband's history of abuse and his gradual internalization of his responsibility for the perpetration stands in his favor. Considering his recent experiences with his mother and sisters, it's reasonable to assume that he's fed up with women right now. I think you are right about his need for some emotional space. It would also be good for you because you need time to devote to yourself. I have to leave now. I'll continue this later.


Lot's of love,
Mary

_________________________
"Where there's a will, there's a way." American Folk Saying

"Had I not fallen, I could not have arisen; had I not sat in darkness, I would not have recognized the light." Midrash Tehillim Ch. 22

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#58328 - 03/17/04 08:44 PM Re: Not sure maybe someone can decipher?**may contain triggers**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sammy
I hope you have time to read all this stuff inbetween all the great work you do for others, I don't know how people like you do it....

But it show's EXACTLY the kind of woman you are, you have principles and you'll fight for them.
And that ain't easy when hubby gets out of line and perps.
All your principles get trashed very rapidly. Here you are, an abuse survivor who's dealing with it, someone who holds the laws and moral principles as something to adhered to - or fought until rightfull change takes place. And suddenly he commits an offence against all of it, not least against your love and marriage.

Quote:
So I geuss I get two messages in this... perhaps it is a situation of both?... but deep down I think of all the years of my therapy and how my belief is that once the line is crossed to perpetrator -- a perpetrator is what is first and foremost, vicitim is is secondary.... am I wrong in that thinking?
So how 'wrong' was he ? - at this point I might upset some people. But is a drunken sexual 'encounter' with a sexually experienced ( maybe precocious ) young girl ( 16 - going on 19 ! ) the same thing as a planned grooming of a younger innocent victim ? It might well be statutory rape, and the law IS there to protect young people, and the law should take due proccess - which I seem to remember it did.
But in the big picture ( Ignoring legal definitions for a moment ), was he guilty of forcefull rape or stupidity ?
I know what he did has no real defence, the point I'm trying to make is how YOU see his offence in relation to your principles and beliefs.

I'm NOT suggesting that you lower them, or that they are too high, they're yours. But how does it all fit in ?
I ask this because of my experience. Shortly after I began therapy my wife found out accidentally that I'd been giving strange men blow-jobs. That's reason enough for most women to change the f****g door locks and engage a lawyer pronto !
Naturally she asked for some kind of 'explanation' - just as you must have asked hubby.
So I explained, and I soon realised that lying like a cheap Chinese watch wasn't the best option, so I told the truth, all of it.
She sat and listened, asked a few questions, and waited for me to finish; then said "that wasn't you, it was your abusers" That was some statement from an educated, moral, sensible woman raised in an Irish Catholic family !

That sounds like the bestest excuse in the whole wide world, but it's the f*****g truth !
I wouldn't have been there in those stinking toilets unless I'd been abused and unable to deal with it up until that time.
And I don't think hubby would have been there either given his abuse. It distorts everything we know about sex.
I had a sex life at home with a very sexy and uninhibited woman that I loved, and still do. So why hang around toilets looking for bj's ?

You ARE right to demand some account of his past behaviour, as well as assurances about his future. And that should also include what he's doing to better himself. Being accountable gives US some kind of framework and responsibility to work with - and god knows we need it sometimes !
But please don't beat him with his past mistakes, I learned to move on by example.
Once I'd told Linda about what I'd done she closed the book on it and moved on, we moved on.
I have no doubt at all that my actions will haunt her, as they do me. But we look forward as much as we can.

That you love your hubby is without doubt, for all your ranting and raving that shines through like a beacon. It's an old cliche but one that makes a lot of sense - "hate the sin, not the sinner"

Take care
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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