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#57835 - 02/08/04 07:19 AM My fault: a phase ???
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Since my last post on jealousy, a lot has happenened. V's relationship with the girl who hated me turned sour. V has become jealous of a guy, R.,I was helping and who was starting to fall for me. I told R. I was not interested and he dived into a relationship with the girl who hated me. As a result he started gossiping about me on the French website saying I wanted to manipulate people,that I used him to make V be jealous and he told the girl who was sleeping with V, I slept with him. Of course she told V. about it, she is so jealous and evil that she took pleasure in hurting V. Consequently V. wrote to me a violent mail (kind of out of the blue) where he stuffed in all the things he did not like about me. It felt like he was hiding his hurt behind anger. The mad thing is that I have done nothing wrong and that I have cleared things up with these two guys and apologized when I felt I needed to apologize.
My friend who came with me to Amsterdam got contacted by R who told her she should be careful with me because I am going to manipulate her...She said she did not agree with his side of the story and then he started insulting her ! When she wrote to V to warn him not to believe everything the guy is saying V. wrote her to tell her he did not love me and repeated it quite a few times and said everything was my fault. She did not respond and he wrote again to apologize for his anger towards her and again repeated that he does not love me and he is angry with me because this is all my fault ! Forgetting his role in his role in a dysfunctional relationship with someone who hated me in the first place and who kept hurting me in public when we had our evening reunions with the group. He said that and now he wants to be friend with my friend ??????
The gossiping is still going on,about me being a "manipulator" it is crazy ! But V. believes I am the one spreading gossips about him on the website. All I can do is to avoid evening reunions and not answer to provocation of the evil guy and girl who are after me. So I remain silent, hoping that the truth would be reestablished, hoping that V. will finally accept the reality that I am innocent and I love him.
I really feel he is uncapable of accepting his feelings and behaves like he is ashamed of having feelings or emotions at all.
A survivor friend explained to me that he started the affair with the dysfunctional jealous girl because he wanted to punish himself for breaking up with his mother. That makes sense !
I wanted to know if the "this is all your fault" is a normal phase that allows the survivor to express his anger. He had started doing that at Christmas after being triggered following his visit at his parents.
I am trying to recover for this insane event (that has been lasting for a month now) and I am just taking care of myself. I am hurt and angry because V. is still not taking any responsabilities for his actions though he has made important changes lately (learning to receive gifts, love..., admitting he is a control freak, loving and accepting that the hurt child within is also part of his personality/being which is just a step away from loving himself).
Please help if you can.
Thank you.

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#57836 - 02/08/04 10:00 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Phase or not, Caro Love, this is not healthy!

I know from 1st hand experience how difficult it is to pull away from one's feelings of love for another person who is not in a position to reciprocate.

Especially in your case, it seems like you are now being thrust into a position where you have to somehow "prove" yourself to a whole pack of crazy, nasty, worthless individuals! Enough already! These people are beneath contempt & do not deserve any more energy from you!

I know you are a highly social person, but it is preferable to be completely alone than to be psychologically tortured by solipsistic people. You have too much love in you to waste it on these beastly creatures!

My thinking is that you can try to pull yourself back from all of them as much as possible & try to concentrate on the new life you will be creating for yourself here in North America. Your true friends are waiting for you here....

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57837 - 02/08/04 10:28 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Your post really, really made me laugh ! First I am telling you I do not intend to make a new life in North America, I love France and old Europe too much for that + South Africa would be first on the list of countries where I could expatriate myself !
But YES I will be coming over and YES I will be visiting you !
I am pulling away from these crazy people though I am still struggling to concentrate on my studies. My real problem right now is that I prefer doing the ironing than my letters for my internship in Canada and THAT is HIGHLY dysfunctional !!!!
How about the V's phase ?????

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#57838 - 02/08/04 10:56 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Ah, My Little Cabbage, ;\) some "phases" last a whole lifetime....

Maybe in V's next life he will have more sel-respect & self-awareness - right now, his self-hatred is consuming him. I do not know how it is possible to stop re-creating one's "family of origin" in one's emotional bonds with others, but until V finds a way to do this for himself, he will never grow up & will be stuck with the emotional profile of a 13 yr. old.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do or say to "help" him. He has moved himself to a place where you cannot reach him, even if deep down inside he still "knows" you are his true friend.

I wish I knew how to move away from this kind of "unfinished business." We always think there is just one more little trick we haven't yet tried & maybe THAT will be the key to the whole problem.... but it never seems to work & we just end up getting frustrated that we can never be as angelic as the situation demands.

I don't know if this answers your question.... Can't wait to go out for coffee together!!! ;\)

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57839 - 02/08/04 11:55 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
YEBO for coffee ! (means YES in zulu ! lol ! )
I have finally managed to abandon the ironing for the real work !
So thank you Kolisha ! Will write more in pm !
I still hope because V. has shown me he is truly doing some work on himself.
Yes it's true that I always think there is this last trick I have not tried ! So I end up stuck in the waiting/no move zone because I am always afraid that if I leave he will not follow.
But now my priority is to get this internship in May, come to New York and do the workshop with Mike Lew in England in June. V will have to catch up with me because I am heading for the stars !!!!
Love
Caro

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#57840 - 02/08/04 12:02 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
You Go, Girl!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57841 - 02/08/04 05:23 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
caro,
i recall the time of almost two years that i was a walking zombie after my former wife betrayed me so completely. there was no way any one could reach me. every night i would drink myself into a devastating sleep that never worked and the next day i would drag my sorry butt to work then start it all over again the next night. there is no way a person can be reached when they are in that state of mind. if lady theo had come into my life at that point we never would have even crossed paths because i was lashing out at everyone. i wanted to die, caro, and no one could reach me. i think i would argue about the one observation of v doing this thing with the girl because he left his mother because i think it is something else, but that is not hte point here. v is on one path that only he can change and only he has the power to do that. the one thing that i had to really accept before i could live again was that it was truly, irrevocably over. until i reached that point, my grief and my rage was constant and nothing could pierce it. i reached that point just before lady theo entered my life....it was at that point when i realized and accepted that my former life was truly over that i could even begin to accept that i had a life to live. once i realized there was still a life to live, lady theo entered it. lady theo could not have touched my life if i did not think i had one. it was i who had to see i could live, the same is true of v. until he decides to live, there is nothing for you to share, mon amie. no fault of your own, no deficiency of yours, no mistake made on your part...his choice alone. pm me if you need me.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#57842 - 02/08/04 09:02 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Caro'
I can't remember who sang "you can't argue with a sick mind" - whoever it was , he was right.

And until the day that V 'really' gets to grips with his life I guess he's going to spit venom at everyone who tries to get close.

Move on, you're doing the work and healing yourself, don't try and drag someone else behind you who's not doing enough, he'll drag you backwards.

Tough I know, but look after number one !

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#57843 - 02/09/04 01:23 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
I have read the article someone recommended about PTSD and I have found something that makes sense about V being agressive as a way of fearing intimacy and thus keeping me away and also as a way to deal with his anger and his fear of "exploding".
I am sad because he is alone in this battle and I can do nothing. It is hard to stay away from him right now though I know I have to protect myself and he has to make a choice on his own whether or not he considers the relationship worth keeping and worth fighting for.
Not doing to good today + I have a terrible flue that makes me cry every 30 min !

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#57844 - 02/09/04 07:12 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Caro'
It's sad, but true. We can't do the work for someone else. Think about your healing real hard for a moment, remember how you were and compare that to how you are now, think about how you did that - and more importantly - who did that ?

V does deserve support, and love, I have no doubt about that. But on their own it isn't enough to make him better; he has to do the big share. All someone else can do is guide him, and therapy is, in my opinion, the best way to get the guidance we need.
I know that you've said he is seeing a therapist, but again that's a two way deal, there's no free ride.

He surely knows you care and want to help, and love him. But for some reason he might still be fighting all the help offered, still feeling unworthy of others help and still not trusting anyone.
That's a hell of a mountain to climb, but we have to it.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#57845 - 02/10/04 12:14 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Lloydy:
Caro'
I can't remember who sang "you can't argue with a sick mind" - whoever it was , he was right.

I cant agree more. When my dad has been in his suicidal phases my mom and I had a lot of heart to hearts.. "what if he finishes himself off this time.. what could we do to save him.. what shoudl we do".. talk about heart wrenching.

But as my mom said "I love him but I cannot save him from himself.. you cannot save ANYONE from themselves if they dont want to be saved. Its just a bottomless pit." My mom is an amazingly strong woman. While I may disagree heartily with the way she handles my dad, I've only ever seen her off-center about 3 times in my whole life.

All you can do is figure out what you need and live within that and not settle for less. And that's all you can do. And that includes the choice of who you spend your time with. A good relationship or friendship has to be one where both parties are drawn and motivated to be with each other and motivated to treat each other with respect. And as far as my dad's suicidal tendencies, he has to want to live, to find motivation in his life, to find the good in it, and none of us can do that for him.

Once you get hooked into the drama of jealousy and control, that's exactly what it is. Jealousy and control, not love. And suicide to me seems like an extreme form of that. Its the ultimate in abandonment and control.

The only way to something that does not make you feel like you are losing your mind is to be in something that's all based on love, respect and appropriate behaviour and appropriate boundaries. And if you're not getting it, then you have to walk. It is a hard decision I know lately I have been mulling the same damn issue in my own heart. I mull it over every time I think about making contact or spending time with my family, or how to express my anger/needs when my partner is treating me like crap. It is heartbreaking. But sometimes you just have to say what you need and do what you have to do for yourself, and trust you will be OK no matter what happens. That you, alone as an individual are JUST FINE!!!!!

I'm not saying this as a total model of composure when all this goes down in my own life but I'm not. I"m a blubbering, crying insomniac zombie lately and its really tough. Its ripping me up inside and its really hard.. but I'm managing.. somehow.. and I can totally understand why the ironing is so attractive! Lately when I am mulling this over I find myself compulsively mopping and dusting.


P


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#57846 - 02/10/04 01:33 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Verrrrrry sound advice, PAS!

You are right - we do tend to get hooked on "drama" sometimes - for myself, I am always wondering if the bio-chemical changes from PTSD are causing certain situations: we survivors are so used to having our guts wrenched, that we simply don't KNOW how to exist with calm! I wonder if we sub-consciously seek out relationships that always "hold a promise" of what we think/ feel we want.... and never get "there" because we are primed to act this way by our bodies?????

Meanwhile, I have taken your advice to heart & have broken ties with my friend. Nevertheless, the feeling of "unfinished business" is sometimes overwheming. I am constantly second-guessing myself & what I did to break away. I find myself missing "him" all the time, and yet, when all is said & done, there really is nothing to "miss:" our "relationship" had gotten to a point where there seemed to be only one person "in" it...

When a survivor pulls away, it is easy to rationalize that he is doing it for his own protection, that he is damaged, that he is going to emerge from the spiral & love us again. Sometimes we get so addicted to this way of thinking that we forget how much pain we are enduring because of it. Yes, my "head" was in control this time when I was able to analyze the situation intellectually & conclude that it was sapping far too much joy out of my life & that I wasn't getting enough support or understanding from my friend. And - my "head" is very proud of itself for protecting me as best as possible.

However.

The rest of me, from the neck down, is feeling a combination of bereavement, deadening, and yearning: doing the "right" thing can be excruciatingly painful....

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57847 - 02/10/04 07:27 PM Re: My fault: a phase ???
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kolisha
This is sooooo right -

Quote:
Sometimes we get so addicted to this way of thinking that we forget how much pain we are enduring because of it. Yes, my "head" was in control this time when I was able to analyze the situation intellectually & conclude that it was sapping far too much joy out of my life & that I wasn't getting enough support or understanding from my friend. And - my "head" is very proud of itself for protecting me as best as possible.
NOBODY should ever feel guilty about looking after themselves. I have said so many times that "we" should be 'selfish' - not in a nasty way but in a way that that places the individuals focus of caring on themselves first.
Get that bit right and then we're in a far better place to help others.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#57848 - 02/11/04 03:37 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
I have the feeling that I am about to explode, I am losing my sanity. My niece has most certainly be abused by my father. I am falling, falling, falling. My life is a complete nightmare, this is madness. This is too much to bear. I am getting triggered too. I am losing myself.

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#57849 - 02/11/04 08:46 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
1st, let me tell you how sad & sorry I am for you - this must have been a profoundly shaking experience, to know that the abuse has continued on & on & on....

But, Caro, your neice has a resource available to her that you did not have - someone in her immediate circle who can help her through this horror. You are in a unique position to provide support & guidance to someone whose world & self-perception has been shattered.

This is NOT to say that you should take on more than you can bear - if you find the trigger too strong, you will need to comfort yourself 1st. By now, you have a few "tricks up your sleeve" that will help you to cope with the grieving process. Yes, it will take some time & some planning, but, unfortunately, the wounds will still need tending for quite some time, unless, of course, there is need for immediate intervention.

Try to take care of yourself - remember to BREATHE, remember to REST! Remember that you have good friends who love & appreciate you!

Hugs!!!!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57850 - 02/11/04 11:46 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Kolisha: re: getting hooked on drama - Interesting thought - I have had that thought myself a lot. My thoughts are that because of our background we just have a much higher tolerance for crap and drama, and just stay in situations where others who have not had that kind of background would have left a long time before.. hence increasing our tolerance for crap and drama.

Also for me, I have a hard time identifying when people are crossing the line and when I am crossing the line - its like i am 5 years old and asking a million people for their advice on what I should do.. but literaly, I dont know what to do, if someone is out of line, if someone is not out of line and I am over reacting, my whole perception of that is really poorly developed and poorly grounded.

Re: breaking ties: That is tough. I can completely identify with that situation.. however since my last relationsihp that ended where I felt I was the only one in it, I realized that I just didnt have the energy anymore to be in that kind of a relationship and even attempt to have any kind of a life for myself out of it. It took too much of my energy just to try and keep something patched up that wasn't ever gonna work. Trying ot keep your own life together - job, personal life, is hard enough let alone trying to singlehandedly hold a failing relationship together. I realised then that a relationship that will work out will have ot be one where the other person is drawn to me - that puts energy and effort into the relatioship, and with every new relationship to sit and see how "engaged' this person is going ot be with me before I get too deeply involved. I have had to let a few "potentials" walk since that time.. but better to know early then I will only boo-hoo for a few weeks rather than months or years if it breaks up!!!

For whatever problems I may have in my current relationship at least my partner is giving it his 100% - i may not always like what is going on but he just does not quit. He does not spend too much time in denial but has been very quick to gather resources to help - he was the first one of us to call a couples counsellor a few years ago, he is usually the one to make the first move after a big fight, he has been active in his counselling and therapy, he is committed and I cant ask for more in that department.

Its just the nature of our interactions that are particularly thorny and abusive sometimes. I know he does not want to leave.. which is something.

What you are going through is a normal grief reaction to any kind of a loss. Hell - I am planning on buying a house and moving over the next few months - sounds like a great move upwards right? Something to be happy about?

However this move will require me to leave my current beautiful neighbourhood which I have lived in for about 4 years (apartment rentals are affordable in this 'hood but houses to purchase are about 1/2 mil.. yikes) and I am grieving the loss of my lifestyle and neighbourhood.... and very blue about it today... if that is bumming me out then a breakup is even higher on that scale! Be kind to yourself.

Regarding questions on "why did I stay in that relationship so long" - if you have done any studying on grief (I think there is a book by Elizabeth Kubler Ross??), you will be aware that two big parts of the grief process are a) "denial" and b) "bargaining". We are doing both of those when we hang on to things and people and situations that are no good for us.. because even though it was no good for us, it is PART of us and letting go involves a loss. By hanging on, and denying, and putting up with stuff that we shouldnt we are protecting ourselves from the pain. And I dont know about you but for me, grief is really really painful. FOr some of us, unfortuantely, we feel things so deeply and so strongly that we would do anyting to protect us from that pain -even put up with crap and abuse (which we have a high tolerance for - as per a previous paragraph in this post \:\)

However, unfortunately, the only way through the pain of loss and grief, is, right through it. You gotta feel it, process it, sit in it, cry through it, it sucks bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad... but you gotta go there.......

The only advice I can give is to eat well, try to sleep, exercise, take care of the physical and spiritual health, surround yourself with comfort, caring people, and healthy things and do what you gotta do.

Ok i'm gonna get Catholic on ya here on how I try to perservere through these tough times - I know you are Jewish but hey we can all learn from other faiths.... I dont know where I'd be today without my own faith to fall back on i tell ya.

So... a few years ago I had a hell of a run of bad luck - as I have mentioned - I was unemployed, dumped by my live-in boyfriend (hence homeless and jobless) and had to move back in with my seriusly dysfunctional parents (dad was very hooked on tranquilizers which were causing serious health problems and had fallen off the alcoholism wagon, was back into his suicidal phases, attempted suicide by OD on drugs/alcohol) in 2000-2001. I had also just experienced the traumatic death of a friend in a plane crash in late 1998, had a bad accident falling down stairs and was badly injured (severe tissue injury/pelvic/spinal bruises) and wound up hooked on pain killers as well as the fact that I had to watch my beloved pet cat waste away from cancer during 1998 and was put down Easter 1999.

I had no choice but to look to the higher powers for support.. there was nothing, absolutley nothing that ayone could do to soothe me. It was awful. I was alone, homeless, jobless, about 50 lbs overweight, completely dependent on my parents again at age 30, how awful.

So after about 2 months of being completely incapacitated, I got all spiritual.. what the he** else could I do?

I dove into my own faith, and started to see a parallel between these major challenges to the story about Jesus when he realized that God's master plan for us was for him to die a really painful death for the "greater good".

At one point this whole master plan was laid out Jesus by God and he knew he had to do it but he didn't want to.. who the he** would want to be voluntarily killed? Painfully? For anyone? Forget that nonsense!

So Jesus went out into the desert to wrestle with the fact that he was about to be captured and painfully crucified, and here he was, God's son, put on earth to do "His will" and that will was to die, painfully and publicly, and there was NOTHING he could do but fulfil God's will. He had to die, in the exact way that God laid out for him.

Because he was a human - God in Human form if you will, he grieved, cried, denied, challenged, bargained, experienced the normal range of emotions that any human would have knowing he had to sacrifice in the extreme. But in the end, he did what he had to do, what he was put on earth to do.. and so we see that in our faith as the ultimate act of love and liberation - that he was sacrificed and allowed that to happen so that we could all live eternally with God after WE die.

I liken my "bad years" to this - when went through these experinces of great loss I called it my "great desert"... and realized that we as humans must, from time to time, all go through these throughout our lives for the greater good.

When we go through these personal deserts - we are going through to the eternal good of improving our own life, relationships and the welfare of ourselves and those around us. We go through these to learn, and to grow in love and faith as Jesus demonstrated and as God dictated.

Some of us have more pain and others less.. (that too is similar to another bible story - the parable of the "talents" but I'll get into that in another post) and both the desert story and the parable of the talents give me great comfort when I get into my "why, why why why me? Why did I have to go through what I went through? Why did my partner have to be sexually abused? Why Us?" modes.

Sometimes there is no rationale or reason, sometimes I believe that God calls to us gently and other times it is painful but it is all a lesson for us to learn to trust Him. That we are not really in control of our lives, but God, (or whatever name you give him - Buddah, Allah, Great Spirit, Righteous Dude \:\) - that God is in control and we have to live according to God's rules, not ours.

Apologies if I have offended those of another faith by my sharing.... but again... I am just sharing my own experiences here, hopefully its helpful. I dont think I'd be able to have handled all I have handled, as well as being able to try and help my partner through his issues, keep a job and all of that crap going if I didnt have some kind of faith that there is a master plan at work behind all of this shite. I dont know yet what that master plan IS but such is the nature of faith.........

Catholic PAS over and out. ;\)


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#57851 - 02/11/04 11:58 AM Re: My fault: a phase ???
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Caetel:
I have the feeling that I am about to explode, I am losing my sanity. My niece has most certainly be abused by my father. I am falling, falling, falling. My life is a complete nightmare, this is madness. This is too much to bear. I am getting triggered too. I am losing myself.
Triggering.. can completely understand.. what a horrible experience...

Get as many resources as you can around you.. therapists, doctors, kind friends....

It is now when you will see who your true friends are. And you will have some!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I dont know how spiritual you are but God/Allah/Yahweh/Great Spirit/whomever you want .. you can be sure he/she/it is watching, hears your pain, hears your cries...

There is an awful lot of evil in this world.. a lot of suffering, but a lot of good too. Have faith in something higher than yourself and in those who are here on earth to help you.

PAS


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