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#57009 - 12/28/03 10:56 PM Discussion Board Boundaries
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Hi Y'all!

I am hoping to get some clarification here: Is it NOT ok for me to read the posts in the Male Survivors messages? Is it NOT ok for me to respond to them?

Some of the comments are absolutely heart-rending & I feel so saddened by them, but I am also greatly, vastly encouraged by the wisdom & determination & openness.

I am learning so much about (1) how to support my friend & what he must be going through (2) how to give him space & not impose myself upon him (3) that all of us, male & female survivors, have very similar ways of reacting to the abuse.

So - any thoughts or guidelines would be appreciated.

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57010 - 12/29/03 09:41 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Kolisha54,

There was a lot of discussion of this a while back. The original thread was deleted, but reposted as a cut and paste quote in a new thread somewhere.

The gist of it is, I believe, the majority of the guys who post here would prefer that forum be reserved exclusively for male survivors.

I would suggest that you send a PM to someone to see if they're willing to correspond with you about a topic, or start a thread out here that relates to how actions of a survivor in your life affect you.

When I stop and think about it I realize how difficult it is to strike a balance between the differing views on how best to run the site. I am not one who prefers keeping that forum exclusive, but it certainly does me less "harm" this way than it might do some other guys who consider that forum "their space." Overall I think the folks running this place are doing a great job with a delicate subject and some very sensitive clients, i.e., people like me.

I'm a member, nothing more, so this counts for as much as you let it. It's only my opinion. I hope the forums that are here are helpful to all the people who use them. I know I get a lot of help from threads in this forum sometimes, even ones I don't join. I guess if you read something over in the Male Survivor forum that stirs up things in you, you should be able to post about your own feelings, etc. here. I'd be careful about keeping the focus off the person who posted what I read, though. You who support us need support, and I personally don't know anywhere else on the web for you to turn. I'm glad, no I'm proud that this forum is here for you.

Happy Holidays, Happy New Year!

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#57011 - 12/29/03 01:56 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kolisha
Joe's just about summed it up, we 'recommend' that women refrain from posting there.
The split in favour and not in favour is abot 50-50 as far as I can tell, so we try to keep it to a minimum.
But if a reply was very appropriate then I hope common sense would prevail.

The other option is to start a new topic in the Fam' & Fri'forum about the same subject.
Or ask whoever's post has interested you if you could restart it in Fam'& Fri'.

It's a bit frustrating for you I know, but this subject is the cause of regular 'discussion' here, and keeping the peace is something we like to do.

But keep posting, and please don't think we're ungrateful for all the help and support we gain from all the partners here - we are.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#57012 - 12/29/03 02:21 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Dave,

Quote:
we 'recommend' that women refrain from posting there.
What it actually says as an intro to the discussiion forum:

Quote:
We ask that only male survivors post here. This forum is for the discussion of recovery issues. Please use the Off-Topic forum for general discussions.
There is nothing ambiguous about ONLY MALE SURVIVORS. I don't see the word recommend.
I think Joe's advise makes a lot of sense.

Quote:
the majority of the guys who post here would prefer that forum be reserved exclusively for male survivors.
I would suggest that you send a PM to someone to see if they're willing to correspond with you about a topic, or start a thread out here that relates to how actions of a survivor in your life affect you.
Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57013 - 12/29/03 03:06 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Thanks for the clarification & the great suggestions!

I'd rather be "frustrated" than think I was making another survivor feel uncomfortable - or worse.

In the future, I am going to limit my reading of posts only to those that concern "partner" or "relationship" types of issues.

I know how important it is for my own friend to feel that he has complete control over the amount of exposure he wants to cede to other people - it's been really difficult for me to understand that my very own emotional "proximity" to him makes me the LAST person he wants to talk to sometimes. Yeah, women really do operate differently, so although you guys would know all this implicitely, it's kinda difficult for us women to absorb the lesson.

Thanks so much for all your advice & your insights!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57014 - 12/29/03 08:25 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
sorry, that should have read "ASK"

dAVE

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#57015 - 12/29/03 10:11 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
personally, i have found the insight offered by the ladies here to be invaluable. i respect the need of my fellow brothers in restricting the male forum to male posters. this makes perfect sense and should be respected but when flame wars start about this issue too many people are hurt. sensitivity goes both ways. there have been times when i have felt completely alienated by the vehemance of some on this issue and have wanted to leave the forum. for the ladies here who go out of their way to help us we have to keep in mind the respect and dignity they are intitled to while still responding to our own unique needs. overall, i have been quite impressed by the integrity that 99.99% of the participants have shown here over this issue.

ladies, as i have said, your insights have been so very helpful to me. unless i specifically request in my sunject line that no ladies read it then i welcome any one to pm me on the topic. take care, all of you.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#57016 - 12/30/03 01:28 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Theo...

I think you walk on water too!

Hugs,

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

– Anne Lamott

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#57017 - 12/30/03 02:43 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
ditto for me too Theo. I have no problem with any of my posts being read or receiving PMs from any of the membership. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57018 - 12/31/03 01:56 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
I'm not a male survivor or a member but I will put my opinion in because I am a big mouth.

I think it's good that the male survivors forum is for male survivors only. I wouldn't post there if I could, because I'd want men to show me the same respect on a female survivors forum. I read the posts there, but not all of them, and mostly not just the ones that deal not with partner or relationship issues, but the ones that deal with issues that my boyfriend deals with. And if my boyfriend were to post here, I wouldn't read it at all unless he asked me to. And THAT's because I'm here because I'm trying to learn about and deal with the challenge of being the partner of an abuse survivor, which means that when I'm here, he's a priority, and my relationship with him is a priority. And after that comes helping the other incredible people here, who have helped me just with the fact of their existence, by sharing where I think it's relevant and supporting where I can. I guess those are "my" guidelines for reading and posting.

I have PM'd a few of the men here when I've wanted to ask them something or share something with them, and I don't think I've ever been treated without respect and dignity. In fact I've been treated with so much warmth and acceptance that it blows me away. I have no doubt that that will continue to be the case, at least, as theo said, 99+ percent of the time.

I, too, have been struck and touched by how similarly we all react to abuse, but also at how differently men deal with some things. I don't think I ever would have had the opportunity to learn about these differences if there were no Male Survivors forum because I don't think that some of the posts that have taught me the most would have been posted if women posted there too.

happy new year all,
Sar


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#57019 - 01/02/04 03:08 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Thanks Kolisha for bringing up the subject.
I have also feel hurt by the "all male exclusive forum" because I can't understand that women can read but not reply ! I understood that there is a private members chat room and forum so I don't really get it.
I can feel that the delicate issue behind all this is safety and trust. They are some very delicate issues that are brought up in the male forum that would never appear in the Family and Friends where the posts come mainly from partners.
I am a partner but also a survivor, I can learn from guys but I believe my experience as a survivor, a partner and also the friend of other male survivors could benefit other guys.
It actually happened yesterday on the chat room of http://www.inceste.org where I spent hours chatting with a guy.
So far, no male survivor has ever complained about receiving the point of view of a woman. I have had the experience of discussing compulsive masturbation with a French male survivor on the phone (even more personal than the internet right ?). And you know what ? The most amazing and helpful thing for him was that he could actually tell his dark secret to a WOMAN ! The feeling of shame and guilt disappeared but what he thought impossible: "a woman accepting him without despise, criticism..." was actually possible.
But I am a survivor myself so maybe my understanding of the feelings, hurt, pain, issues of a male survivor make more sense to me because I experience the pain and the difficulty of healing myself.
On http://www.inceste.org , there are open forums : the main ones are "survivors forum" and "partners forum". I remember there has been a post on compulsive masturbation and the response were mixed, guys and girls,sharing their experiences, issues, strategies..and a guy actually saying that he did not feel there was such a huge gap between men and women.
I have personnally responded in private to a few guys after reading their posts but sometimes I felt "my words could have helped someone else too, what a pity".
When I posted about V (I was hoping to be able to exchange views with male survivors whose perp was their mother), my post was moved and I must admit I was shocked, felt uncomfortable and not really accepted.
I am just sharing how I feel but I must repeat that being a survivor, I strongly feel like one of you guys !
Warmest regards and again happy New Year to you all, with all my heart
Caroline

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#57020 - 01/02/04 04:25 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Caroline,
Quote:
I have also feel hurt by the "all male exclusive forum" because I can't understand that women can read but not reply ! I understood that there is a private members chat room and forum so I don't really get it.
I think the idea is that, for some guys (not all by any means) the idea of discussing these topics with a woman is frightening/upsetting/uncomfortable. Personally, when my wife and I started our counseling together, I deliberatly sought a female counselor "just in case" my past would come up.

There is a private forum, but it is for dues paying (or sweat equity paying) members. I hardly ever go to chat, but it is not reserved for males, as far as I know. I don't know what kind of response a woman would get in the chat rooms, though. I would hope it would be respectful, but for some guys a woman's presence might be triggering.
Quote:
I am a partner but also a survivor, I can learn from guys but I believe my experience as a survivor, a partner and also the friend of other male survivors could benefit other guys.
I know the experience of survivors helps other survivors. I participated in a weekend retreat in December with male and female survivors. It was a great help to me.

But that's me. There are guys here who do not share that sentiment. When those guys point out that there isn't anyplace else specifically for guys, it's hard to refute. (I know, I have visited other web sites related to male survivor issues. This is still the biggest by far and many of the others are not interactive.)
Quote:
I am just sharing how I feel but I must repeat that being a survivor, I strongly feel like one of you guys !
As a survivor, to me, you are "one of us." Some guys don't see it that way, though.

In the thread I mentioned above (the one that was deleted) I said I would like a forum where male survivors and anyone intersted in male survivors could post. I think the Unmoderated forum is not the place for it. It's not Off Topic. It's not specifically Family and Friends. As I imagine it, it's a place where anyone interested can discuss the issues related to recovery from childhood sexual abuse. I know (believe me, I know) that sexual abuse of males is a "best kept secret." I know this is Male Survivor. My take is that the problem is sexual abuse, not abuse of males, or abuse of females, or abuse of red heads, or abuse of unathletic kids, or any other "specialization."

In a recent thread I was one of several who admitted to relating more easily with women than with men. I know I have heard my experience in the words of women survivors at SIA meetings. To me many of the issues are the same for all of us.

In my best of all possible worlds, the Male Survivor forum stays all male for the sake of the guys who feel so strongly about it. But we add a moderated forum for people like me (and perhaps like you) who want open discussion with survivors and pro-survivors alike. Providing that service does not take anything away from the guys who don't want to use that forum any more than having a forum for gay survivors takes away from hetero folks.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#57021 - 01/02/04 07:32 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
i can understand how having the male survivor forum ‘read only’ can be frustrating and difficult. i think most of the guys can, because many of the sites for survivors are just like, except they exclude men.

but i tend to look at the male survivor forum as a something that is specifically for males to relate their experiences and share them with one another. maybe that’s just me, but that’s how i see it. there really aren’t any places where men can do that, and, from what i’ve read and can see from how it affected women, it’s a good thing. you can’t go from polarization to generalization and just skim past half the issue. it’s necessary for the male perspective to be heard and for men to have a voice outside of that of women.

i think having another forum would be a good idea. it could be one where any of the posts that women read in the male survivor forum could be discussed as well as opening the floor the issue of abuse in general. it’s great, as well as the site remains here for creating awareness that males are victims of abuse as well, because, from a societal, media, political, and therapeutic standpoint, it’s still widely considered minimal, unimportant, nonexistent, or any combination of those three.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#57022 - 01/02/04 08:38 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
unknownsoldier Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Northwest
I feel for anyone who feels excluded by this site, but I strongly support the men only aspect of this particular bulletin board. If people want another forum, great. IMHO

Jim


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#57023 - 01/04/04 03:50 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Tribear Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
I would like to see the male survivor forums reserved for posts by male survivors.

I appreciate the women who respect that boundary. I know the messages can still be read, and you can always PM someone and ask to talk off-forum. There are other places here to post publicly.

I searched the Internet for 2 years before I found this place. Some sites are female-only, others are mixed.

This site is the ONE place where I usually don't have to worry about the issue becoming gender clashes, instead of the topic in the thread. I really need that.

Privacy and respect help people heal. As I see it, if someone heals, everyone benefits.

Thanks,

Ed


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#57024 - 01/04/04 04:53 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I have been usually okay with the ladies here. I have had some time of discomfort with it also though. But there is a young friend that I have recommended this site to, who I feel very protective of, and upon hearing of his discomfort and fears due to females in the chat room, and then reading this post, I felt need to make some comments. This is not directed really at anyone, but I feel frustrated, and angry that my friend feels less safe here now. He, as all of us, deserve to feel safe here. And this is not directed at Caetel, but her post most is what says some things I wish to address, so I am using quotes from there.

Quote:

I have also feel hurt by the "all male exclusive forum" because I can't understand that women can read but not reply ! I understood that there is a private members chat room and forum so I don't really get it.
I had looked for quite some time for an 'all male' site for healing from this. There are many, many all female sites. There are many 'mixed' site, which are predominantly, by at least 75%, women. I have been at sites that are SUPPOSED to be for female AND male survivors, and have been attacked for my gender. When I came here, it was because it is called MALEsurvivor, and I thought, finally, I will be accepted, even with my facial hair and sometime rude habits. And to say that there is a private members area and chat, that seems to be implication that if MALE survivors at the MALE survivor site wish for a place only of their own, they must pay for it. While there are a hundred sites for female survivors for free.

Quote:
I am a partner but also a survivor
I am sorry that you also have had to survive this. But, at this site, in this context, you are a partner. Because, presumeably, you are here to help HIM, not to work on your own personal issues. (Not saying that anyone else can't get something from here that CAN help themselves; but hoping that is not the motivating factor in being here, but to help the OTHER person they care about).

Quote:
So far, no male survivor has ever complained about receiving the point of view of a woman.
Perhaps that is true of the other site you go to. At this one, I believe WhyMe and Al specifically would disagree with that statement, and some of the other members who added their thoughts to the threads started by those two men.

Quote:
I am just sharing how I feel but I must repeat that being a survivor, I strongly feel like one of you guys !
Not meaning to be flippant, or for this remark to be simple, as there is more in the context then the obvious; but, unless you have a penis, you are not one of 'us guys'. Yes, male or female, survivors of sexual abuse are going to be similar in many ways, and feel many similar things, and perhaps 'act out' in many similar ways. But, just as men and women are remarkably different (as those 'mars and venus' books will tell you), male and female survivors are going to have remarkable differences.

I said it in one other thread. If one MALE survivor is made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable because of the inclusion of women in the male forum (or now, in my mind, in the chat room), that is one too many. The friend I recommended this site to, he is greatly needing to feel safe. And now, because of the chat room problem, he doesn't, and may not return. THAT is not right.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#57026 - 01/04/04 10:38 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
WHY in the world would a woman want to be in the men's chat room?

I can understand READING the posts in the men's forum, as my greatest learning has come from there, which has DRASTICALLY changed my life because of my new found awareness. I understand the post restrictions. SOME guys are not comfy with it, and that should be the priority. It's the whole reason for this whole place. I do PM people occasionally, which gets the same job done, only a bit more privately, right?

I agree with Leosha, we're never gonna be 'one of the guys'. They will never have babies, and we will never totally understand their hormones!

The message board issue has been "handled" I think, for the most part, but the chat thing, ugh! From some of the things I have heard about it...from some of the guys...THAT seems like it could be potentially "dangerous" for even the guys sometimes.

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

– Anne Lamott

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#57027 - 01/04/04 01:37 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
roger Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/25/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Message deleted at Roger's request

Lloydy


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#57028 - 01/04/04 02:08 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Hey Roger,

ACtually, I think the decision was NOT to allow women free reign in the male forum. It was made clear that we shouldn't be posting there, and I fully support that decision. There's even a little "disclaimer" thing on the top of the page. I have PM'd people though, as some have become dear to me, and others I have wanted to "suport". I admit, I did post there when I first came here, cuz I didn't "get it". Dave was very kind, and told me what it was really for. I appreciated that, and I quit posting there immediately. That was months ago.

Can I humbly ask to be seen as an individual though, and not be grouped in with the 'complainers'? I had come here for help for a kid, and WOW did I get tons! I am eternally grateful! You guys are amazing, and I am quick to tell you that.

I didn't complain, because it doesn't accomplish anything. I "reported" progress and setbacks, because I wanted direction. Not from the angle of how it affected 'me', but more "what am I seeing" and...any suggestions?" Thank you so much to the wonderful people who provided it. I always try to remain positive, that's why I'm "Pollyanna"!! I have 'vented' occasionally, but in PMs to people who know what I need.

I am so touched, and so sorry that there is so much sadness and hurt, that places like these are even necessary. I really want to do whatever I can to "alleviate" whatever I can. Really...if it's even a remote possibility that some little stupid thing "I" could ever say would even make a difference. I will never quit trying to show goodness, cuz there's a lot of that in the world too.

I hope you find peace.

Hugs,

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

– Anne Lamott

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#57029 - 01/04/04 02:26 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
two things:

one, i think it's clear that all that's being asked is that males have a place where it's only for them. reading is one thing, and it's similar to listening, you can tell someone not to do it, but if they're right there, they'll hear it. posting is another thing, and to me, it's just a boundary issue. no one should be put in the position to have their boundaries pushed, broken, or tweaked in any with way without wanting to. and no one should have to feel like they can't post here because it isn't safe, and that goes for both genders. still, everyone needs a little breathing room to be with others just like them. there's nothing wrong with sharing our experiences, but that sharing should be willing, not forced. guys need to have the opportunity to expressed themselves and relate outside of women, that's all any of us are asking for.

two, and i'm not usually the one to say something like this about an issue like this, but i think its had its moment. this is getting to the point where people are defending the issue instead of discussing the issue. and it's totally moved away from kolisha's original question. the last few posts seemed a little tense (granted i started it), and it's starting to get slightly warm. so i'm wondering if we can turn the heat down a little, or maybe just step outside for a moment, and then come back.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#57030 - 01/04/04 03:08 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
roger Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/25/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Message deleted at Roger's request

Lloydy


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#57031 - 01/04/04 03:48 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Everyone - I really appreciate everyone's sharing on the board. There are certain places restricted because of comfortablity and all ready reluctance to share (especially victimizations that cause so many negative feelings for guys).

We are all here for the same reasons - to get help, give help, give support! It is easier to accomplish this as outlined on the site.

Thanks for everyone's contributions,understanding and sensativities!

Howard

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#57032 - 01/04/04 06:34 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
This has been the best and most reasoned discussion of this issue we've had so far, previous ones have tended to get a bit explosive.
And all that achieves is sending people into their particular corners and going on the defensive, and the offensive !

I think we have to accept that women can read the Male forums, and if they feel strongly enough about something then a PM to someone isn't out of order.
They take the risk of rebuttal, and I hope that if any man felt they didn't want a woman to PM them then they would at least be polite about that rebuttal.

My personal view is well known, I value everyones views regardless of sex or sexuality. But this is Male Survivor and the reason many guys come here is because of the Male forum, and that has to be respected.
I know that recently the Moderators have made a point of ensuring that more tightly, although a couple of innocuous posts have remained on the forum.

The fact is though that nobody has ever complained ( to me anyway ) about any particular post, the issue has always been a general one of women posting there, which is why I at least have let those few posts stay.

I'm sure that after reading this excellent discussion everyone will understand the boundaries better and we'll be better able to facilitate everones views.

It's a juggling act of trying to please all the people all the time, sometimes it's not that easy.
But we try.

Thanks to everyone for your views, and please carry on if you have anything further to add.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#57033 - 01/04/04 07:12 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Yves Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Canada
If a man entered a "women only" chat room on abuse and it was made known there was even one person made uncomfortable by his presence, he should have enough respect for the participants to leave.

Ladies, if you care as much as you say you do, please leave the few places we have, to us.

~Yves

_________________________
You know you love someone when you want them to be happy even though their happiness means you're not part of it. ~Author Unknown~

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#57034 - 01/04/04 07:12 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original question & all that's ensued from it. I think, for me, the issue boils down to: this is a wonderful place for me to learn how to support the person I love - especially when I don't understand his pattern of self-protecting behavior, especially when he can't talk about any of this...

My experiences with my friend, coupled with the candor I have encountered here, have convinced me of the absolute necessity to learn to respect the "boundaries" of the survivor - male, female - we all deserve the same compassion.

From what I have learned here, I have come to understand that it is essential that we women partners & family need to develop a new kind of tolerance and dispassionateness (is that a word?)when interacting with our menfolk: we cannot treat them with condescension - they will see right through our feeble attempts at "playing therapist" or "dramatic rescuer." We need to learn how to be friends before all else. So. Would we go through our best friend's mail or read his private journal??? That's just plain unethical! C'mon Ladies! We can do better than that!

Nevertheless. There are certainly times when WE need support from our partners & none is forthcoming. These are the times it is impossible to be steely & resolved & strong. And sometimes our partners become less than helpful - much less than helpful - & cause us even more pain. So, if our posts appear to be "complaining" to the men in the forum, please understand that this kind of "discussion" & entreaty for support is just a normal part of womanish culture: isn't it better for us to voice our frustration here in this forum than take it out on our partner???

I think, for myself, I am just going to avoid the male survivor forum completely. However, I would greatly appreciate input from the men in the forum about specific issues concerning partner relationships. I have found that the best way for me to do this is to simply post an open-ended question on the Family & Friends board & this is what I will be doing from time to time.

So, for all you guys out there - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not avoid the Family & Friends forum!!! I would feel terribly impoverished if it was not for your comments & insights.

Thanks again to everyone!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57035 - 01/04/04 07:24 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Yves Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Nevertheless. There are certainly times when WE need support from our partners & none is forthcoming. These are the times it is impossible to be steely & resolved & strong. And sometimes our partners become less than helpful - much less than helpful - & cause us even more pain. So, if our posts appear to be "complaining" to the men in the forum, please understand that this kind of "discussion" & entreaty for support is just a normal part of womanish culture : isn't it better for us to voice our frustration here in this forum than take it out on our partner???
>>> What does this have to do with us <<<

_________________________
You know you love someone when you want them to be happy even though their happiness means you're not part of it. ~Author Unknown~

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#57037 - 01/04/04 08:19 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Edited, original post deleted.

Is this better? For my opinion to be shut up again?

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#57039 - 01/04/04 09:18 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I don't understand my asking for clarification of something I don't know, not singling out of specific person, how that is 'attack' of you. I felt that both myself and Brian, in those posts, were quite civil.

I understand that my opinion of last night's events in chat are based on 'second hand' knowledge, as I was not in there, and do not go in there. However, as I stated before, I am quite protective of my young friend that *I* advised to come here. And he was very upset and distressed by what occurred. He is not at all talking of any of this in 'real life', other then telling me very little. So this was something I felt could be safe for him, as it was for me, to get started talking more of it, and realizing that it is all right. I stressed to him that this is a safe place. Now he is very scared and uncomfortable to come here. I think that the person who is responsible for that situation getting to that point probably does feel defensive of it. But again, my main concern is that this very hurt and scared boy has now been frightened away of this site, that could be greatly helpful to him.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#57040 - 01/04/04 10:47 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Quote:
Condoning that behavior may be what leads a surviver to become a perpetrator.
An unbelievable leap! I would caution everyone to ignore this kind of rhetoric. Sometimes things are said in the heat of the moment.

But as my dear wife would say, "if you see crazy coming, cross the street."

Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57041 - 01/04/04 11:18 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
OK, Everyone - this has gone quite far enough. It does not appear, to me, that anyone was being individually sniped at & I have no idea how this spiraled so far out of control, but the ferocity has to end! We all occasionally lapse into self-defeating behaviors, but this is way over the top.

Let's close the silly topic already & get on with our healing?????

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57042 - 01/04/04 11:30 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Whoa.

I have already posted in this thread (back when it was a little calmer, this recent activity is somewhat of a shock) so I am limiting this to my response to what's been said since then.

For most of us, male and female, having to "deal with the presence" of the other gender is a part of real life that you can't easily get away from. And most of us, male and female, wish sometimes that we could. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting safe space where they can get it and nothing wrong with wanting to defend it. That being said, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to direct a lot of anger and generalization toward half of the population--EITHER half. I get defensive hearing "women do this and that," as I think anyone would when they heard themselves put at the front of that remark. I am also not at all comfortable with, nor do I find appropriate, the generalizations being made about survivors/ male survivors/ partners/ women partners on this thread. When I hear, "This has happened and I don't like it," even if it's me you're talking about, that's something I can deal with. To say, the anger of a male survivor, if tolerated, leads to perp behavior? I don't think that's fair. I think that's the kind of stereotype that keeps male survivors from disclosing in the first place and keeps them out of "mixed" forums.

Yes, I talk about my hurt sometimes. I talk about "my" problems. But I do so in the hope that I can help someone I love, who is leading a life with me and therefore we "share" each others' problems, and I speak for myself because I'm the only one I can speak for. Also in the hope that someone else--maybe even a male survivor trying to get some insight and help with his own relationships--might take something out of what's been said. I can understand how, for men who aren't in relationships with women or who aren't ready to step out of a safe, male-only space, that is entirely not helpful. But I don't think that anyone here posts about their feelings or experiences, anywhere on the board, because this community says, "what do your feelings have to do with me?" This is a place for shared experiences, for community experiences that are made out of personal experiences. If it has nothing to do with you then I'm sorry I can't help you but I'm not sorry for contributing what I can to the discussion.


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#57043 - 01/05/04 01:31 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Quote:
Originally posted by Emiwe:
.

I feel threatened by any violently angry post made against women in the Family and Friends Forum. Condoning that behavior may be what leads a surviver to become a perpetrator.

I hope that all adult male survivers will be able to conduct themselves as adults in the Family and Friends Forum, and give us the respect and at least a minimum of civility that they themselves wish for.
Aarrrrrreeeeee you really talking about LEOSHA...of all people? :rolleyes: He is the antithesis of 'violent'. I'll give ya angry, cuz he has every right to be, but as to the "future perp" thing, that is the ultimate insult.

Observation #2: Ok, it took awhile for me to get the full gist of things, but I do get it...the name on the top of every page around here is MALE SURVIVOR. As women, we have absolutely NO rights here...not to demand any sort of "behavior standard" or any particular 'space' or anything else. There is no 'law' stating that they 'have' to even have a family and friends forum.

Every moment of every day in these guys' lives, they have to 'behave'. The cool thing about here, is they don't HAVE to! They can say whatever the flip they feel like, and nobody is supposed to be judging them, or chastising them, or telling them they're rude or unacceptable in any way. They can even fart if they want to! Everyone needs a place to let their hair down, and as one famous man once said, "This is the place."

Nobody said anything "against women".

Chill

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

– Anne Lamott

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#57044 - 01/05/04 01:52 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Lynn, Thank you, thank you. You have said it all! And you are so right about Leosha. He is the gentlest and kindest of souls. And he certainly didn't deserve the scurrilous, slanderous, slagging he received late yesterday. Nor did any of us need to be characterized as perps for possibly showing anger in the one safe place that is available to us. Fortunately, your kind words and the kind words that have characterized the postings of many and most of the other ladies, out-weigh the mean spirited and outrageous words of one. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57045 - 01/05/04 02:18 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Emiwe,

To call us perpetrators if we don't want you to bash us is abusive. A way to force your control over us and what you have referred to as "your" survivor.

So, I ask you these questions:
Are you here for him or yourself?
Which do you really care about, his being SA or you being inconvienced by it?
If his SA didn't affect you, would you even care?

All of the women partners that claim they are here for "their" SA survivor should ask themselves those questions. There are a few of you that I truely believe that are here to help, but there are others that I see that are here for themselves, not the survivor they are claiming to be.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#57046 - 01/05/04 03:16 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Read the post, quoted the post, and yes you did.

Look up the definition of "abuse". Nobody did it to you here.

Nobody's 'projecting' anything onto you. YOu asked for it, you got it...Toyota.

If what you have said has "triggered a couple people", it's because they have a vested interest...a long time one, and it's THEIR issues, and THEIR suffering. This place is about THEM. You can go to sleep at night, and wake up fine. Many of them can't. They live with it every second of every day. And 'you' deserve the compassion?

As for me, I feel just a tad protective of some of the people I have come to know and love around here. I don't want to see them hurt any more. Enough is enough.

Nobody is 'entitled' to go ANYWHERE that stomps all over another person. As my mom says...all the time..."Your rights end where someone else's begin." I reiterate...being a woman, we HAVE NO RIGHTS here, so throwing your "confidence and knowing yourself" around hold no water. If you know it "can be threatening", then why are you doing it? The last thing anyone needs here is to be threatened. That's the root of the problem in the first place.

Conflict is avoidable, if nobody throws the first stone.

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

– Anne Lamott

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#57047 - 01/05/04 03:19 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Emiwe,

He is not "your" survivor, he is a survivor. To claim that shows your wanting to control him, just like his perp(s) did. Which is worse? If you want to help him, be supportive of him on his schedule. You cannot force him through it as you want.

And to force yourself upon the other men of this organization is an extreme show of wanting control. It was politely, at first, explained to you that some of the guys had an issue with you being in the chat room. To which you responded, "what about my issues?" This is the one place that men alone can come to. They need to have that respect, to which you would not relent, demanding that your issues be addressed over the other men that were there, some new just beginning their healing journey. You say that you learned boundaries a long ago. Try learning a bit of respect.

The questions remain. Are you here for who you so lovingly refer to as your survivor, or for yourself?

I have up until your outburst in the chatroom, been a supporter of women here at MS. I value the access to get their opinion on matters. I am glad the ones, that truely are here to help the survivor they love, are here providing support for all of us. I applaud their strength and compassion.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#57048 - 01/05/04 03:22 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Dear Lynn,
We are wasting our time on this person. She just doesn't 'get it', and we need to move on. The real winner is her ex bf Mark, and he should be celebrating his freedom from this person. And Lynn, I don't know who your husband or significant other is, but kiddo, he's got a winner and a real sweetheart. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57049 - 01/05/04 03:25 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Lynn,

Thank you for always being a voice of reason and caring. It is people, such as yourself, that I admire.

With that said, I am done with this thread.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#57050 - 01/05/04 04:01 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
unknownsoldier Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Northwest
A good thing about having a male only space is that it lets us model to each other a different masculinity than many of us saw growing up. Many of us were also wounded by men, and here we learn how men show each other compassion, support and caring. So for me its not so much about not wantng the women here as just wanting the men, if I can make that fine distiction clear. I know too much has been posted on this already, but I hadn't seen anyone say this point.

This whole discussion made me think about in what way this place is valuable. Since being open with other men here, it makes it easier for me to take that out into the world. I used to be really uneasy around men in general, and its been better lately, since I knkow that inside other men rally aren't that different than me.

thanks,

Jim


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#57051 - 01/05/04 04:22 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Don-NY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 546
Loc: Long Island, NY
Em,

You came here about three weeks ago, calling yourself by the name of one of HIS stuffed animals.

You claimed to be in great fear and confusion, begging for help to understand what this awful person had done to you. A man you would never have contact with again, as you couldn't bear the pain - the most horrible you had ever been through.

Funny that today, you are here to support "The Male Survivor".

You told of how you joined other boards, and sought advice there. You even carried out the manipulative suggestions you received regarding staying in contact, using a go-between, etc.

Doesn't seem much like the actions of a woman who "Knows Herself" and "has a bit of Confidence", someone who said three weeks ago that she felt like a "hunted animal".

In short, your stories, your claims, are inconsistent. This has all been about YOU and what you want from the very beginning.

You entered the chat forum on a Male Survivors site. Did you ask first if women were welcomed there? If perhaps there was a designated time for women? Or did you just go in, assuming you are entitled and would be welcomed?

Having done so, and then learned that it created a problem for a Male Survivor, what then did you do to "Support the Male Survivor"?

You needn't answer. It is obvious in your posts. You became condescending and then launched a series or classic passive-agressive nonsense, ending with this shining example:
Quote:
If my confidence makes you uncomfortable, I am sorry for that, and maybe you may not be interested in what I have to say.
Sure, you didn't call anyone a perpetrator. You just happened to write that immediately after Leosha's second post.

The point is you didn't address the issue of being in the chat room and the harm it caused Leosha's young friend. All you needed to say was something to the effect that "I am sorry and regret it if my presence caused any harm". Simple, isn't it?

Apparently, your definition of knowing yourself and having confidence means never having to say you're sorry, never admitting you could have done something wrong or harmful, even inadvertently. More like what the rest of us would call arrogance and an exagerated sense of entitlement.

Instead, you offered your condescending remarks on how we will change the world. Then you began your attacks -
Quote:
It's unfortunate that female partners/friends are treated with hostility by some.
Ceratinly this is true, but it goes with the territory. If you can't see that or understand it, and if you feel compelled to use that statement as a defense of your actions, then you are in the wrong place.

Quote:
There may be safety and comfort around you. I encourage you to take a peep now and then... lift your heads and look for it; look for the actuality around you of the safety you need. It may be there, you may be able to perceive it in your mind, and if that happens, you may be able to feel that safety.
These are beautiful thoughts, but they are rejected and irritating because you are using them to deflect blame for the upset you caused back upon the people who are upset. You use this passage to point out the deficiencies of those who may not feel safe. You will not acknowledge or accept that you were the source of the upset.

Yes, the drama continues, and you are the one fostering it.
Quote:
Unfortunately, anger that people should be venting at their abuser(s) is being thrown at me, since I became the lightening rod for hatred toward women, by going to the chat room, which there was nothing to prohibit me from.
So you are the lightening rod for hatred towards women. My now, aren't you important? And what a burden that must be for you.

Miss, you really are in the wrong place. Your issues are not our issues. You mentioned your abandonment issues in an earlier post. Andrew and Bill have clearly identified your Control issues.

You are not here to support Male Survivors, or a particular male survivor. You need another place, or a therapist to help you deal with whatever your concerns and issues are.

Please don't use this place to wage a war to be heard, understood, and accepted. There is little chance of that now.

All you had to do was say you were sorry.

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

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#57052 - 01/05/04 04:28 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Don, your concise and to the point eloquence in the midst of this furore has made me proud to be a member of MS. Thank you for supporting us.
Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57053 - 01/05/04 04:29 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
tallsteve Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 404
Loc: Boston, MA
Hello all,

I am a moderator in the chat room and was the moderator when (emiwe) was present and the fracas erupted. I am saddened by the resulting posts I have read. As you can see, I do not write here often. Tonight i could not sleep without saying something.

emiwe, it pains me that through all of this you have not shown even a hint of remorse or insight into the pain you caused as a result of your actions. As a member of a community, virtual or otherwise, we must conduct ourselves with an awareness of each other to so that we can connect and participate and to feel ultimately fulfilled as humans. Are you feeling fullfiled here? From my perspective you have been insensitive, controlling, disrespectful, among other things, and this is counterproductive to your stated reason for coming, if that is in fact true.

In the chat room, you were indeed entitled and demanding. I was surpised to see your use of the word entitled, though sadly you use it with pride. You do have a lot of power..you could have made a huge difference and had your needs met, too. Instead you abused us, you hurt us, you are the perpetrator. It is very sad that you have not learned ...yet.

Even sadder is the loss of Andrei and Leosha to our community here. Guys, if you read this please consider coming back. emiwe, these gentle and young men are just coming to grips with their abuse histories. As any survivor will attest, this is a very tough and fragile time. And you treaded heavily on them....and that from a confident (your word) woman?

emiwe, I have to beleive that your actions and way of being as clearly and consistently demonstrated here also shows up in other parts of your life and therefore in your relationship with Mark. I ask you to look inside yourself deeply and honestly. Reflect. Re-examine. Therein lies the answers to the questions you were seeking. I hope my words here help.

For the future emiwe, should our paths cross in chat, you will be on your very best behavior, with all comfortable. Anything less and I will kick you out, just as I am empowered to do with any other chat participant, male or female. The men in chat will be safe and protected. I have been entrusted with that responsibility.

emiwe, are you up to the challenge? Where there is gain, there is pain.

Towards all our growth,
Steve

( I have just changed the real name to 'emiwe'. Lloydy )


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#57054 - 01/05/04 08:05 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Hi to everyone - Something that our wonderful SAR said really makes sense: the Family & Friends forum is about *relationships*... let's bear that in mind, too, in our efforts to support our loved ones. We do not act in a self-centered vaccuum. Our actions DO have an impact on those around us - let's be more careful with eachother.

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57055 - 01/05/04 08:29 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
i feel very humbled and i stand in awe of the fellowship i witness here in this thread. this was the entire reason that i first came here and stayed. my choice to leave this forum was not based on the deplorable incident of the chatroom because i had decide to leave prior to knowing about it, but upon hearing of it and reading that damnable statement my decision was only reinforced. as with any group or family, there are bad days and good days...the last few hours have been really good. i decided to leave because i no longer felt safe in this place with all the hostility that seemed to be brewing under the surface only to explode in rants like what happened here and in other threads. i felt that we were a community once, now it seems as though we found our community again. i still need to stay away for awhile but i will check my pm from time to time. all iwanted to say here is that i am proud of each of you for standing together in this. lynn, i smiled when i read your posts here. don, i echo andrew in admiring your eloquence. kolisha, you started this with the best of intentions, and your coming back to this when it spiraled out of control is a statement towards your integrity and compassion. i think for a time we may have forgotten that this forum is a community...why must it always take a tragedy to cause the community to remember it is one? to everyone here, please, journey well.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#57056 - 01/05/04 11:38 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
My brothers and sisters,

I am not in the best mental space right now, but I've gotten some pretty troubling PM's from people who mean the world to me and there are people threatening to leave the board because it isn't safe for them anymore. This is wrong. Wrong for the survivors, wrong for partners, wrong for families, wrong, wrong wrong!

Since when has a discussion of bounderies turned into a raging torrent of flame? Why is there a need to get personal when we are expressing our opinions, our feelings, our perceptions? This is wrong and unworthy of everyone here. We are BETTER than this, people!

If this is where we're heading, a whole lot of people worked their @$$e$ off saving this organization for NOTHING! I have no desire to be a part of something that has turned so hostile, even though it has saved my life. Do you want to turn people away, survivors and their support people, simply because we cannot separate our emotions from our personhood? I surely don't think so.

Perhaps a new code-of-conduct is needed so that people can regain their trust and confidence here. I'd hate to think it has come to that, because we are all caring, feeling, people. But we are human (although sometimes I have doubts in myself!) and can make mistakes, so one may be necessary.

A suggestion for one:

A: All people who come to this site are caring, feeling individuals and should be treated as such.

B: Regarding sensitive issues - people need to be aware that some who come here are in a fragile mental state. What sounds like constructive feedback to you may not come across that way to the people you address. Please be respectful when responding.

C: In general, treat others as you want to be treated. Blunt commentary designed to hurt is NOT what you come here for. Please refrain from such behavior.

D: We are all creatures who have been through fires no one understands. No one's pain is greater than others. Please remember that.

E: Don't judge others because you don't like what they have to say. Everyone's experiences are different, and this has shaped their opinions. They are no more right or wrong than you are.

D: We are better than those who have hurt us. Act that way.

Maybe I'm coming off as what I hate here, but please, there have been good, helpful people who've said they will leave this site because they no longer feel safe or secure. If this is what "Malesurvivor" has become, I want no part of it either.

We are heroes, all of us. Be heroes.

Peace.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#57057 - 01/05/04 12:10 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
On this topic:

>>>>I would suggest that you send a PM to someone to see if they're willing to correspond with you about a topic, or start a thread out here that relates to how actions of a survivor in your life affect you.

Personally this is how I handle this issue. While I *do* read some of the male-survivor only posts I do send a PM initially to that person and ask them if it is ok to talk to them on a particular topic based on thier post on the survivors-only thread.

We as partners have to keep in mind that some of these guys were abused by women - their moms, or caretakers, sisters, etc.. and some of them while not directly abused by their moms had moms or other female caregivers that failed to protect them from their abusers.. and that is one of the many issues that are facing male surviors of SA.

WE have to keep in mind that these survivors NEED a safe space to talk about these things "among the guys".. to talk about issues that are specific to being a man who is recovering from sexual abuse. As women we can try and help but there are just some things that we'll never understand about their point of view in all of this!!!!!!

For my partner the whole recovery from abuse issue needs to take place in a safe space.. if I continually, even with good intentions, intrude into that space when he is most vulnerable (this was a bigger issue a few years ago than it is now) it can prolong things and in the past is has caused problems - I have been caught in the real-life "flames" of his anger - the kinds of verbal haranguing that you have seen on this board has happened to me in REAL LIFE. Not that I am accepting that type of behaviour (because it is unacceptable) but we cannot forget these are guys whose boundaries were violated, they were not listened to, not respected, and so for many of them MANY things remind them of that feeling of being not listened to/respected. I try to keep that in mind and not post on the male-survivor-only thread at all.

Anyhow that's my view on things and so far I have not stepped on any toes. Some guys have welcomed my PMs and others have not.

PAS


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#57058 - 01/05/04 12:30 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
I apologize for any misunderstanding about this post. I was assuming that this post was from someone who got blasted in the unmoderated forum a few weeks ago - which was a big issue to me when I went on xmas vacation.. but DUUH aI guess I must be tired upon second glance I can see it there are two different people here... and apparently I am mixing two different incidents here. Apologies for any confusion!!! So on that note.. I've snipped and edited!

Sorry folks!

P

Quote:

I know what happened to you men was horrible. It's unfair, and you shouldn't have had to live through that. But you did live though it, and the circumstances of your lives are different now. There may be safety and comfort around you. I encourage you to take a peep now and then... lift your heads and look for it; look for the actuality around you of the safety you need. It may be there, you may be able to perceive it in your mind, and if that happens, you may be able to feel that safety.

While this is definitely what I think most surviors are aiming for, for many they are just "not there yet" and we have to respect that!!! A survivor can only do what he is able to do at the time and if he is just not there yet, he is just not there yet!


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#57059 - 01/05/04 01:00 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
OK deleted this one.. serves me right for shootin' my mouth (er fingers?) off! \:\)


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#57060 - 01/05/04 04:31 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Hokay, I've read through this thread again after I made my post and it hurts all the more when I consider two fine men such as Leosha and Theo, men who have literally saved my life, feel compelled to leave. Leosha particularly was bashed pretty hard by people who posted here and called vile names, such as "perpetrator," and they were wholly unjustified.

We are not "perpetrators" when we try to defend our friends. We are not "perpetrators" when we voice our opinions. We are only perpetrators when we actively go out to hurt someone KNOWING that we are hurting them.

That is also wrong, and unworthy.

Anyone, I feel, is welcome here, in this forum, and family/friends need to hear from each other. They also need to hear from other survivors in order to understand what happened to their loved ones from other points of view.

When good people are attacked, it is wrong. Am I a "perpetrator" if I stand up for my friend? If I misunderstood you, I need you to tell me, not attack me. I need to understand too. That doesn't make you or me a bad person. It's when you start tossing names around without thought of what they actually MEAN that you cross a line.

If standing up for a friend makes me a perpetrator too, then count me in. Tell me.

I am not a perpetrator. Nobody here is. I don't think we do it mean-spiritedly, but the namecalling has to STOP and NOW!

If it doesn't, we're driving people away who need us, we are re-victimizing them. And we ARE becoming real perpetrators.

Please, people, THINK! THINK before you say what's on your mind. I'm not now because I'm afraid of losing a very important support. All of you, the brothers and the sisters. Because, I gotta tell you, if this is what it's all about, maybe it's time that I cash in as well.

Maybe it's time to just walk away. But if I do, I know I will not survive.

But maybe I'm not worth surviving either.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#57061 - 01/05/04 04:35 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I've only just seen a bit of what's going on and haven't had any chance to find out what's happening, or why, at the moment.
And unfortunatly I have other things to deal with tonight, although I know the Moderating team are on the case.

So, can I just ask everyone to take a breather and let things settle while it's sorted.

I've seen a few posts where people are saying they are leaving, can I sincerely ask that you don't.
We're here to sort OURSELVES out, and if that means we fall out sometimes then so be it. Let's work to get over it, it's nothing compared to the crap in our past.

Thanks
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#57062 - 01/05/04 06:44 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Brothers and sisters,

After reviewing what I have written here, and after considerable thought, I will be formally asking the moderators to close this post.

While the issues discussed here are important, there have been too many misunderstood responses and, frankly, personal attacks made on this thread, to make any more valid observations here.

Frankly, it was my last post that did it for me. I truly believe that nobody meant to be hurtful, and responded with their hearts, but a few of the brothers and sisters I care about most were hurt and I made what I later realized was a veiled attack on one of the respondants. I therefore became what I was railing against. I still stand by my ideas, but whether I meant to or not, I made a comment that could be construed as hurtful.

This topic is important, and perhaps the moderators can cut and paste the more insightful responses into a code-of-conduct that can be used for the future. This action, with real consequences for those who intentionally (key word!) break them. This can win back the confidences of the brothers and sisters who have been alienated.

I was scared for myself as well, because I saw a force for good about to come apart because of what was becoming personal attacks and words being tossed around without thought of what they could mean to survivors and their family and friends.

I hope that we can all learn from this, be able to discuss this issue more meaningfully at another time, and become a healing community again.

Again, please moderators, close this post. Too many good people are getting hurt.

Peace,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#57063 - 01/05/04 07:11 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
YES!!! PULL-EASE!!! Close the stupid dopey thing!!! I am sorry I ever started it!!!

Let's all cool off & try to be the best people we can be...

YUK!!!!! This has made me SICK!!!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#57064 - 01/05/04 09:00 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
After a good look at what's going on with this post I think it's time to close it.

I appreciate that people have been hurt, many not intentionally, and I hope we're all able to move on get over it.

I would also ask that this post isn't just continued on the Unmoderated Forum or elswhere.
If anyone does have something to add PLEASE let one of the Moderators know about it.

We take your safety and views seriously, and I also believe non-judgementaly, and will treat everyones views with respect.

Many of you have pleaded for restraint and for common sense to prevail, and I thank you all for that.

Thany you all for your support.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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