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#57042 - 01/04/04 11:30 PM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Whoa.

I have already posted in this thread (back when it was a little calmer, this recent activity is somewhat of a shock) so I am limiting this to my response to what's been said since then.

For most of us, male and female, having to "deal with the presence" of the other gender is a part of real life that you can't easily get away from. And most of us, male and female, wish sometimes that we could. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting safe space where they can get it and nothing wrong with wanting to defend it. That being said, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to direct a lot of anger and generalization toward half of the population--EITHER half. I get defensive hearing "women do this and that," as I think anyone would when they heard themselves put at the front of that remark. I am also not at all comfortable with, nor do I find appropriate, the generalizations being made about survivors/ male survivors/ partners/ women partners on this thread. When I hear, "This has happened and I don't like it," even if it's me you're talking about, that's something I can deal with. To say, the anger of a male survivor, if tolerated, leads to perp behavior? I don't think that's fair. I think that's the kind of stereotype that keeps male survivors from disclosing in the first place and keeps them out of "mixed" forums.

Yes, I talk about my hurt sometimes. I talk about "my" problems. But I do so in the hope that I can help someone I love, who is leading a life with me and therefore we "share" each others' problems, and I speak for myself because I'm the only one I can speak for. Also in the hope that someone else--maybe even a male survivor trying to get some insight and help with his own relationships--might take something out of what's been said. I can understand how, for men who aren't in relationships with women or who aren't ready to step out of a safe, male-only space, that is entirely not helpful. But I don't think that anyone here posts about their feelings or experiences, anywhere on the board, because this community says, "what do your feelings have to do with me?" This is a place for shared experiences, for community experiences that are made out of personal experiences. If it has nothing to do with you then I'm sorry I can't help you but I'm not sorry for contributing what I can to the discussion.


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#57043 - 01/05/04 01:31 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Quote:
Originally posted by Emiwe:
.

I feel threatened by any violently angry post made against women in the Family and Friends Forum. Condoning that behavior may be what leads a surviver to become a perpetrator.

I hope that all adult male survivers will be able to conduct themselves as adults in the Family and Friends Forum, and give us the respect and at least a minimum of civility that they themselves wish for.
Aarrrrrreeeeee you really talking about LEOSHA...of all people? :rolleyes: He is the antithesis of 'violent'. I'll give ya angry, cuz he has every right to be, but as to the "future perp" thing, that is the ultimate insult.

Observation #2: Ok, it took awhile for me to get the full gist of things, but I do get it...the name on the top of every page around here is MALE SURVIVOR. As women, we have absolutely NO rights here...not to demand any sort of "behavior standard" or any particular 'space' or anything else. There is no 'law' stating that they 'have' to even have a family and friends forum.

Every moment of every day in these guys' lives, they have to 'behave'. The cool thing about here, is they don't HAVE to! They can say whatever the flip they feel like, and nobody is supposed to be judging them, or chastising them, or telling them they're rude or unacceptable in any way. They can even fart if they want to! Everyone needs a place to let their hair down, and as one famous man once said, "This is the place."

Nobody said anything "against women".

Chill

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#57044 - 01/05/04 01:52 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Lynn, Thank you, thank you. You have said it all! And you are so right about Leosha. He is the gentlest and kindest of souls. And he certainly didn't deserve the scurrilous, slanderous, slagging he received late yesterday. Nor did any of us need to be characterized as perps for possibly showing anger in the one safe place that is available to us. Fortunately, your kind words and the kind words that have characterized the postings of many and most of the other ladies, out-weigh the mean spirited and outrageous words of one. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57045 - 01/05/04 02:18 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Emiwe,

To call us perpetrators if we don't want you to bash us is abusive. A way to force your control over us and what you have referred to as "your" survivor.

So, I ask you these questions:
Are you here for him or yourself?
Which do you really care about, his being SA or you being inconvienced by it?
If his SA didn't affect you, would you even care?

All of the women partners that claim they are here for "their" SA survivor should ask themselves those questions. There are a few of you that I truely believe that are here to help, but there are others that I see that are here for themselves, not the survivor they are claiming to be.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#57046 - 01/05/04 03:16 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Read the post, quoted the post, and yes you did.

Look up the definition of "abuse". Nobody did it to you here.

Nobody's 'projecting' anything onto you. YOu asked for it, you got it...Toyota.

If what you have said has "triggered a couple people", it's because they have a vested interest...a long time one, and it's THEIR issues, and THEIR suffering. This place is about THEM. You can go to sleep at night, and wake up fine. Many of them can't. They live with it every second of every day. And 'you' deserve the compassion?

As for me, I feel just a tad protective of some of the people I have come to know and love around here. I don't want to see them hurt any more. Enough is enough.

Nobody is 'entitled' to go ANYWHERE that stomps all over another person. As my mom says...all the time..."Your rights end where someone else's begin." I reiterate...being a woman, we HAVE NO RIGHTS here, so throwing your "confidence and knowing yourself" around hold no water. If you know it "can be threatening", then why are you doing it? The last thing anyone needs here is to be threatened. That's the root of the problem in the first place.

Conflict is avoidable, if nobody throws the first stone.

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#57047 - 01/05/04 03:19 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Emiwe,

He is not "your" survivor, he is a survivor. To claim that shows your wanting to control him, just like his perp(s) did. Which is worse? If you want to help him, be supportive of him on his schedule. You cannot force him through it as you want.

And to force yourself upon the other men of this organization is an extreme show of wanting control. It was politely, at first, explained to you that some of the guys had an issue with you being in the chat room. To which you responded, "what about my issues?" This is the one place that men alone can come to. They need to have that respect, to which you would not relent, demanding that your issues be addressed over the other men that were there, some new just beginning their healing journey. You say that you learned boundaries a long ago. Try learning a bit of respect.

The questions remain. Are you here for who you so lovingly refer to as your survivor, or for yourself?

I have up until your outburst in the chatroom, been a supporter of women here at MS. I value the access to get their opinion on matters. I am glad the ones, that truely are here to help the survivor they love, are here providing support for all of us. I applaud their strength and compassion.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#57048 - 01/05/04 03:22 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Dear Lynn,
We are wasting our time on this person. She just doesn't 'get it', and we need to move on. The real winner is her ex bf Mark, and he should be celebrating his freedom from this person. And Lynn, I don't know who your husband or significant other is, but kiddo, he's got a winner and a real sweetheart. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#57049 - 01/05/04 03:25 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Lynn,

Thank you for always being a voice of reason and caring. It is people, such as yourself, that I admire.

With that said, I am done with this thread.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#57050 - 01/05/04 04:01 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
unknownsoldier Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Northwest
A good thing about having a male only space is that it lets us model to each other a different masculinity than many of us saw growing up. Many of us were also wounded by men, and here we learn how men show each other compassion, support and caring. So for me its not so much about not wantng the women here as just wanting the men, if I can make that fine distiction clear. I know too much has been posted on this already, but I hadn't seen anyone say this point.

This whole discussion made me think about in what way this place is valuable. Since being open with other men here, it makes it easier for me to take that out into the world. I used to be really uneasy around men in general, and its been better lately, since I knkow that inside other men rally aren't that different than me.

thanks,

Jim


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#57051 - 01/05/04 04:22 AM Re: Discussion Board Boundaries
Don-NY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 546
Loc: Long Island, NY
Em,

You came here about three weeks ago, calling yourself by the name of one of HIS stuffed animals.

You claimed to be in great fear and confusion, begging for help to understand what this awful person had done to you. A man you would never have contact with again, as you couldn't bear the pain - the most horrible you had ever been through.

Funny that today, you are here to support "The Male Survivor".

You told of how you joined other boards, and sought advice there. You even carried out the manipulative suggestions you received regarding staying in contact, using a go-between, etc.

Doesn't seem much like the actions of a woman who "Knows Herself" and "has a bit of Confidence", someone who said three weeks ago that she felt like a "hunted animal".

In short, your stories, your claims, are inconsistent. This has all been about YOU and what you want from the very beginning.

You entered the chat forum on a Male Survivors site. Did you ask first if women were welcomed there? If perhaps there was a designated time for women? Or did you just go in, assuming you are entitled and would be welcomed?

Having done so, and then learned that it created a problem for a Male Survivor, what then did you do to "Support the Male Survivor"?

You needn't answer. It is obvious in your posts. You became condescending and then launched a series or classic passive-agressive nonsense, ending with this shining example:
Quote:
If my confidence makes you uncomfortable, I am sorry for that, and maybe you may not be interested in what I have to say.
Sure, you didn't call anyone a perpetrator. You just happened to write that immediately after Leosha's second post.

The point is you didn't address the issue of being in the chat room and the harm it caused Leosha's young friend. All you needed to say was something to the effect that "I am sorry and regret it if my presence caused any harm". Simple, isn't it?

Apparently, your definition of knowing yourself and having confidence means never having to say you're sorry, never admitting you could have done something wrong or harmful, even inadvertently. More like what the rest of us would call arrogance and an exagerated sense of entitlement.

Instead, you offered your condescending remarks on how we will change the world. Then you began your attacks -
Quote:
It's unfortunate that female partners/friends are treated with hostility by some.
Ceratinly this is true, but it goes with the territory. If you can't see that or understand it, and if you feel compelled to use that statement as a defense of your actions, then you are in the wrong place.

Quote:
There may be safety and comfort around you. I encourage you to take a peep now and then... lift your heads and look for it; look for the actuality around you of the safety you need. It may be there, you may be able to perceive it in your mind, and if that happens, you may be able to feel that safety.
These are beautiful thoughts, but they are rejected and irritating because you are using them to deflect blame for the upset you caused back upon the people who are upset. You use this passage to point out the deficiencies of those who may not feel safe. You will not acknowledge or accept that you were the source of the upset.

Yes, the drama continues, and you are the one fostering it.
Quote:
Unfortunately, anger that people should be venting at their abuser(s) is being thrown at me, since I became the lightening rod for hatred toward women, by going to the chat room, which there was nothing to prohibit me from.
So you are the lightening rod for hatred towards women. My now, aren't you important? And what a burden that must be for you.

Miss, you really are in the wrong place. Your issues are not our issues. You mentioned your abandonment issues in an earlier post. Andrew and Bill have clearly identified your Control issues.

You are not here to support Male Survivors, or a particular male survivor. You need another place, or a therapist to help you deal with whatever your concerns and issues are.

Please don't use this place to wage a war to be heard, understood, and accepted. There is little chance of that now.

All you had to do was say you were sorry.

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

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