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#56889 - 12/20/03 07:37 PM An another technique of sabotage !
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Hello again every one. I need an advice from you guys !
V. it seems has trie tonight another technique to provoke me. I left him a message this afternoon because I was sent by my work to pick a digital camera in his area. He answered by SMS he was working on his studies but that he would be there at the website dinner (www.inceste.org)so we would see each other there.
Then at 9pm, he rang (a friend who was there too) to find out who got there at the bar and to say that he was not coming.
It made me sad and angry but I guess that's what he wanted. It's the second time he changes his mind at the last minute knowing that it would hurt me. So far I got as sabotage techniques:

- lies
- geting in stupid relationships and making sure I know he is making moves towards other women
- saying bluntly he's got no feelings for me (but then behaving the exact opposite when I broke up with him)
- silence
- chnaging his mind all the time to get me angry at him.
Of course this is all leading to him trying to make me abandon him.
At that point what should I do ? Obviously he read my message on the French website about my major panick attack last Wednesday. So he knows he is the cause of all my recent changes (which are very positive though scary: see my previous post !)
I hope you can help me. I don't know if I should let him on his own: meaning not call, not write...He will still be there next Saturday and I am not sure I can handle him in public (tonight it was really hard trying to pretend I did not care when it was said he was not coming).
I am just very sad tonight.

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#56890 - 12/21/03 06:07 PM Re: An another technique of sabotage !
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Caetel
Quote:
Obviously he read my message on the French website about my major panick attack last Wednesday. So he knows he is the cause of all my recent changes
If I was V, I'd rather hear it from you than read about on a website.

Find out where he's going to be and be there too, without him knowing. Talk to him.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#56891 - 12/22/03 12:09 AM Re: An another technique of sabotage !
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
OOOOOOOO!!!! I am getting so angry at your V!!! Sorry, but as a survivor myself, I really try my best to behave ethically & not take out all my "stuff" on anybody else. I don't know if this is a man-woman difference here, but my women friends always seem to know that if they are not interested in a relationship with someone it is best for everyone NOT to give these mixed messages. Why do make survivors always seem to want/not want a relationship simultaneously???

Having been in your situation far too often than I want to admit, I can tell you that most of the people who truly care about me - IF they knew about thsi kind of scenario occurring - would say something like: "Right now you are not a partner. Right now you don't HAVE a relationship." And I would always find a reason why my friends would be "wrong."

We have to really be brutal with ourselves at a time like this: why are we hanging on when we are getting so little back? Is it because we are in a power struggle here & we want to "win?"

Yes, there are some male survivors here who are truly supportive of their partners - Theo & Dave, for example. These people are in love with their partners even with all the conflicts, their relationships truly exist. Our "relationships" may not truly exist. So. What is it we are "getting" out of all this pain that keeps us coming back again & again to the same place???? Doesn't it seem abusive to you sometimes????

How I wish I could just be practical & cut off all my feelings for N! I really think it would be so much healthier for me. Yet, I just can't seem to get him out of my heart. It is pretty sobering, though, to realize that the amount of time we spend agonizing & strategizing over our so-called partners - they are obviously NOT thinking of us & of OUR well-being. So. How do we break the cycle???

My heart truly goes out to you!!!!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#56892 - 12/22/03 02:43 AM Re: An another technique of sabotage !
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Kolisha--WHO are your women friends because if they want to come and give a lecture or something to a bunch of MY women friends, just give me a call. There is something about men's silence in the face of not wanting something that I find very attractive after hearing the ladies at my job talking all night about the stupid things they do just to get guys (who they don't want anything to do with really) to pay attention to them. (It makes me want to slap them, it's like they're giving "us" a bad name... I wonder if any of the caring and expressive gentlemen out there feel that way when they observe all the men lying and sabotaging.) The point is that we all carry a lot of stupid, gendered expectations for ourselves and a lot of how we react is based on that. I don't think men give more mixed messages than women. Anyway. That's just my mini-rant about why I shouldn't spend my weekends in college bars.

I think that when we are talking about "messages" it is important to remember that there is someone on the giving end and the receiving end. It's hard to say anything truly meaningful and have someone else understand it in exactly the way that the other person meant it. Especially when we are talking about more abstract things like "love" "trust" "silence"... these words bring up different pictures and memories in everybody's head. Things get "lost in translation" even in one language. It's possible that there is no such thing as an un-mixed message.

It's easy to assume that what we got from someone's message is what they wanted to send. It's not always true. Especially if we are already set up somehow to expect the worst. Caetel, there's a difference between "I ended up feeling sad" and "He wanted me to feel sad." Even if V. knew his actions were going to hurt you, it doesn't mean that was why he did them. Or that he's not thinking of your well-being. Have you asked him why he didn't come to the bar? Have you told him that you thought it was because of you?

But if you think that he was doing something with the intent to hurt you or drive you away, then yes, you really do need to ask yourself why you're putting yourself in a situation with someone who is hurting you on purpose. Kolisha is asking an important question, I think. Why are we agonizing and strategizing about someone else? Is it maybe because this is easier for us than turning some of that energy towards ourselves and our own problems? Is it about controlling something? Trying to re-do something from the past that turned out badly? Referring to your previous post, is it easier to be in a relationship that someone else is going to sabotage than it is to be in a relationship where the other person will love and support us and make us feel things that scare us?

Yeah, there are lots of relationships that aren't really relationships. It does seem abusive and it doesn't seem like a coincedence that people who've been abused are in them. But you know I am still optimistic about my own relationship, and I think it's because I honestly think I'm in it for the right reasons.

You guys I am sorry to be so long-winded all the time!!! Maybe I need to get out more (of course then I go to the bars and get pissed off :rolleyes: )

Sar


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#56893 - 12/22/03 09:19 AM Re: An another technique of sabotage !
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
kolisha & sar et al,
your posts to caro's frustrations with v are right on the mark. i had to ask myself why i remained in a destructive relationship (former marriage) when there was so little that was apparently mutual. part of it was my sense of honor. the vows we took were sacred to me. i was not completely altruistic of course, i wanted to believe that somehow, somewhere, she would snap out of the funk she was in for so long in our marriage. it was similar to blue's litany of "if i only..."

why do we stay with those who are unable to give "and" receive? perhaps it is because we continue to hope.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#56894 - 12/22/03 01:09 PM Re: An another technique of sabotage !
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Hey Youze Guys!

Thanks for putting the poetry back into our discussions!

What lovely luminous souls!

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#56895 - 12/22/03 08:21 PM Re: An another technique of sabotage !
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Caetel
I might have sounded a bit cruel in first reply, but in my own way I was saying what Sar says so much better here.

Quote:
Caetel, there's a difference between "I ended up feeling sad" and "He wanted me to feel sad." Even if V. knew his actions were going to hurt you, it doesn't mean that was why he did them.
That's a HUGE difference, and as a survivor who's changing and learning I can recognise the "he wanted me to feel sad" statement straight away.

It was for me part of some very weird thinking, I'd create a 'situation' where my wife would do something to piss me off, or get pissed off me.
Both results were a 'winner' for me - I got to play the victim one more time.

The other point is, my memory of being a 'victim' is one of having very little comprehension of the 'details' of being in a relationship.
I needed hints and directions the size of a continent ! Subltlety was wasted on me.
Maybe V is the same ?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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