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#56736 - 12/16/03 06:59 AM Question.
steel Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 4
Loc: In Gods hands
Is it ok to hate my wifes abuser? Is it ok to tell her that?

_________________________
The Tear

My love, my heart and my soul
Is a teardrop in my eye.
My love consumes my heart,
My heart consumes my soul,
All together you have - my very existence
I cry for us!!!

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#56737 - 12/16/03 11:17 AM Re: Question.
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Steel,
I think it is perfectly acceptable to hate her abuser... BUT you need to know that she is in a space where she can "hear" you say you hate him. If you can share that with out her feeling "responsible" for your feelings then it may be ok to share that. If you could maybe phrase it as... "I hate what your abuser did to you" it might be a little easier for her hear you. It is ok to be genuine with her about how you feel... just remember tho if she feels uncomfortable she may end up feeling a bit of shame embarrassment or regret in sharing with you what she did. She needs to be able to trust that you will not cross her boundaries or wishes about how to deal with her abuser. It must be in HER time... and that can be really really frustrating for you. Maybe you could ask her "can I tell you how I feel about your abuser". That way she remains in "control" of the iformation & you still get a chance to maybe tell her. If not its always ok to tell a therapist how you feel about the abuser.
You are entitled to feel anything you do feel about her abuser... after all the abuser not only effected/affected HER life but now YOURS too! Your a co survivor with her... it is good to know that she has such strong support from you.
Peace, Sammy


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#56738 - 12/16/03 06:07 PM Re: Question.
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Oh man.. totally can identify with hating your partners abuser.. I have nightmares of running over my fiance's perp with my car. When I think about this guy I get this odd, very intense, indescribable feeling of rage, anger, fear and nausea all at the same time. I usually shake, cry and wind up with a wicked headache when I think of that bastard.

But I do echo the sentiment that you have to ensure yoru wife is in a safe space for you to tell her how much you hate her abuser. I have actually said how much I hate my partner's abuser to him and unfortunatley my attempt to being compassionate backfired becuase he was not at a space where he coudl access the anger and rage that he had towards his abuser (and his mom who helped enable the situation) as of yet. Instead it just freaked him out and baffled him.

(footnote he is just entering the stage of his healing journey where he is starting to direct the appropriate emotions at the appropriate people)

P


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#56739 - 12/16/03 11:12 PM Re: Question.
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Here comes mad Sar, man it is not pretty.

I have so much freaking hate for SO MANY PEOPLE in my boyfriend's life, that I actually can't tell him how much hate I have, because the words don't exist. And the worst part is that he is so afraid of his own anger, he's conditioned himself not to feel any of his anger at all because he's scared of what it will do (he's not actually done anything with this anger), so I'm even angrier because I see him NOT being angry when he has EVERY RIGHT TO BE. Just a little bit. There are days I wish he would walk into his parents' house with a bat just so that I could stop dreaming of doing it. Not constructive, I know.

I remember when he first told me about his SA, one of the things I asked him was, how could this all have happened, on such a daily basis, without anyone noticing that you guys were gone? Only a kid, you'd think that someone's mom might poke her head out and look up and down the street and be concerned that the boys were nowhere to be seen. How long were you allowed to play without coming in? An hour? Two?

And he told me, "All day." ALL DAY???? all fucking day. This is the woman who consistently makes her children feel like subhuman creatures who are unworthy of her love and affection because they leave crumbs on the table, and made her boys feel terrible all the time just for being born male, just because of her own issues. I have no trouble believing that a) she really DID let her children out of the house in the morning and not care about where they spent their time until they came in, and that b) she would not have supported and believed her children if they had told her, that she would have told them it was hurting HER to hear it or it was so AWFUL to say, difficult to hear, whatever.

I believe this last part because in the past I've heard her say things like it to my own girls, just manipulative things that ignorant adults say to kids like "It hurts me when you say you're mad at her" and "Why would you want to ask a question like that", and for the sake of not wanting to get in the way of his family relationships, I gritted my teeth and just told the girls when we came home that of course they're entitled to express their feelings and ask questions, to me at least. But once I heard about his SA, and esp. that "all day" crap, I hit the roof. Mind you this is the woman who keeps my kids at her house after school and on Saturdays when I'm at work.

I tried to keep (and I'm still trying) most of this anger from him because it's just destructive and pointless and he's afraid of anger to begin with. I waited until the next day and I just told him that it was something I was dealing with but that of course I intend to respect his privacy (she still doesn't know about his SA). But I did make the decision to stop working on Saturdays at least until I can find some other child care arrangements. I am not comfortable with my girls spending the whole afternoon in that neighborhood (the weekday afternoons there are other, better adults around). I don't care if 3/4 of my paycheck goes to child care, it's worth it if it limits their exposure to her weirdness and neglect. He wasn't happy about this, he saw it I think as me feeling like I had to make all these changes because of "his" problems. And he is anticipating questions from his mom when I go back to work and start paying someone to watch the girls instead of sending them there. Oh well. I'll just have to make up some other reason why I don't want them there all day, it won't be hard, I've got a whole list of other reasons and she doesn't like me to begin with.

That's all I can say about that. I know I'm not saying anything helpful and I'm sorry. Clearly my short answer to your question is, yes, hate away. And when she's ready to be angry, let it be her anger, don't swallow it with your world of anger (this I know will be a problem for me)

peace
Sar


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#56740 - 12/17/03 10:50 AM Re: Question.
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Yeah.. I can totally relate to your situation... SOunds awful. it is really tough but the battle between your partner and his mom is really your partner's.. it is hard to sit by and watch I know I see the same shit happen between my partner and his family, but I have to just sit and bite my tongue. One weird phenomenon I have seen is that if you "fight someone's emotional battles" then they dont have to do it. And in the process of healing, your partner really will have to try and fight this battle.. at some point.. if he ever wants to separate himself from this hell. So.. I know its hard, but really try not to fight his emotional battles for him. Let him feel his feelings...

With respect to your kids tho - am wondering if this is the best person that you could choose to take care of your kids?? Do you have any other babysitting options? Dont let this woman's shit pass on to another generation, if you can!!

P


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#56741 - 01/16/04 08:18 PM Re: Question.
wrangler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 84
Loc: Northern Virginia
This thread is a little old, but I haven't been around much lately so I missed it till tonight. But it is something that hits close to home for me. My exwife definately hated my abuser, and she was very vocal on that point. The thing she couldn't (or wouldn't) understand is that my feelings on the subject are not very clear. If I hated him he never would have been able to abuse me in the first place. Point is that at one time I felt very fond of him.

Then he started abusing me, and while I did not like that experience, I did not change from liking him to hating him. She only knows him as a man that added a lot of hardship to my life and ultimately our marraige. But I know much more about him, and because of that (and my pre-abuse relationship with him) it is very difficult to hate him.

So the result of my wifes rants about hating him were ultimately very insensitive to my own feelings and experiences. In fact, it became impossible to share some things with her because she had such a vigourous response to the idea that I could feel anything other than hate.

Eventually I imagine I will be in a place where I can genuinely understand all (or many) of the things I liked about him as lures designed to make me receptive to his advances. At that time I will probably enjoy the experience of hating him. But when my wife was trying to force me to see those things she was just icing our relationship and communication.

So my thoughts on this question are that the partners feelings of hate or disgust or whatever are appropriate and certainly valid, but that they may need an outlet other than the survivor. I know it is difficult to imagine a survivor feeling comppasion towards an abuser, but I think it is probably pretty common. And I think all of us know what it is like when someone we love hates something we like (or even think we like).

I think this is one of those aggraviting situations where the partner needs to be extra sensitive to the complex feelings in the survivor and perhaps find support and comraderie outside of the survivor-partner relationship. Some sort of support group perhaps.

On the other hand, if the survivor has already processed their feelings of affection for the abuser, then I say hate away. There aren't many things in this world that deserve honest hatred, but I think the people that prey on the trust of children deserve little but hate.

Wrangler

_________________________
"Don't waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself." -Mary Schmich

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#56742 - 01/17/04 01:51 AM Re: Question.
Mia Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 4
Loc: The Frozen Tundra
I think this is a good question. I'm glad somebody brought it back up into play. I don't hate my boyfriend's abusers. What's the point? I feel sorry for them, they're pathetic. What kind of sick pervert molests a little boy? What kind of trauma had to have happened to him to make him think the way he did? To my knowledge, pedophiles aren't born, they're pretty much "made". What kind of mother allows it to go on because she claims she was "afraid"? What kind of mother allows her family members to particpate before getting involved herself? It's sad, perverted, pathetic behavior but hating them for it would accomplish nothing. I'm glad they're both behind bars - their coup de grace (or however one spells it) was tying D to a bed at twelve and setting him on fire (sorry for any triggers this may cause). I could hate them for that, knowing the years of pain, therapy and surgery that followed for him, never mind the emotional turmoil, but hating them would serve no purpose. Instead, I pity them and know that their life in jail is a miserable one because child molesters are the lowest of the food chain behind bars. I hope their miserable and harassed every day for the rest of their lives, not to mention I'm sure they're going to rot in hell, but I can't hate them for what they did. They made their own beds and what goes around, comes around, if it hasn't already. Does that make sense?


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#56743 - 01/17/04 08:36 PM Re: Question.
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mia
Yes, perfect sense to me........

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#56744 - 01/18/04 04:42 PM Re: Question.
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
"Pollyanna" has learned what "hate" feels like.

I guess that's what happens when you really "love" somebody as deeply as I do. It's no longer "someone else's" problem. Yeah, it probably doesn't do much good as far as the objects of the feeling are concerned, but it has changed ME---for the better. I realize I have to DO something.

I'm working on it.

Hugs,

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#56745 - 01/18/04 07:25 PM Re: Question.
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Lynn, do you mean that hating has made you a better person?

At first THAT didn't make any sense to me... just because the words look funny together... but I think that after feeling NOTHING, feeling anything, even hate, can, well, feel great. Motivate. Give you permission to feel more. Maybe it's not the place for everyone to start, but it's better than Nothing.

I really don't know if that's what you meant. Just what your post made me think.

Sar


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#56746 - 01/18/04 08:17 PM Re: Question.
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Hey SAR...

No, it's not that "hating" has made me a better person. It got my attention, which has made me a better person.

Believe me, I "feel" things. Oh BOY do I feel things...if you only knew. When I love someone, they become "part" of me. When people hurt them, I guess I kinda react like a "guard dog" or something! (I haven't bitten anyone yet, though lately I've been tempted!!) I hate it, and it infuriates me to no end. When it's something as horrendous as this kind of stuff, I think it well deserves all the hate that can be thrown at it.

I just realize that something MORE has to be done than what is being done. Not only to stop this crap, but to make sure people know how serious the repurcussions are for the victims for the rest of their lives.

This site is doing a really great thing in helping and educating people. If it takes a little "hate" to motivate someone into being a "doer", then I guess it's well placed. I'm not violent or anything, it's just that I 'get it', and I'm about as 'anti abuse' as you can get.

I know I'm just one person, but that's one more 'aware' person than there was 4 or 5 months ago when I started "lurking" here.

I appreciate all of you and what you have given me.

Hugs,

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#56747 - 01/19/04 05:31 PM Re: Question.
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:

I don't hate my boyfriend's abusers. What's the point? I feel sorry for them, they're pathetic. What kind of sick pervert molests a little boy? What kind of trauma had to have happened to him to make him think the way he did? To my knowledge, pedophiles aren't born, they're pretty much "made".

It's sad, perverted, pathetic behavior but hating them for it would accomplish nothing.

I'm sure they're going to rot in hell, but I can't hate them for what they did. They made their own beds and what goes around, comes around, if it hasn't already. Does that make sense?
I have been thinking this same type of stuff very recently.. perps must be pretty much in a whole lotta pain to do what they do... better to be thrown into the sea with a great millstone about one's neck.. yadda yadda...


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#56748 - 01/20/04 09:54 AM Re: Question.
wifenneed Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 91
Loc: Michigan
I wish I could feel sorrow for my husband's perp, but I don't. Bad things must have happened to the perp, so why can't I feel bad for him? Because he perpetuated the hurt, and it continues on for my dear husband. Perhaps I should feel sad for them, but I can't, not in this lifetime. Bad things happen to people all the time. It's not a reason to hurt others, it may explain it, but it doesn't excuse it, or make me feel sorry for them. I am angry at them, angry as hell.

My husband is able to tell me about the times well over a decade ago that he was going to harm his perp. Right down to the weapon and the ammo, siting it in, how he praticed, everything. But he never did it. The reason? Because the perp had a son of his own. I only wonder what kind of a relationship this man has with his son. I hope it is a good one. This news I only learned from him this past weekend, and it striked a chord of anger within me that I have to stifle, because I really wish I knew this man's name, where he lives now, to see if he has any charges against him for anything, ever. I am so mad right now I'd better stop.

Constructive anger, that's what I have. I don't want to harm this bastard, but I want justice done and I don't think it ever will be (what he did to my husband occurred 1971-1974), but if I ever had a chance to investigate this man, or watch his moves now, and I found he was continuing abuse, I think I'd go haywire with rage.

Angry wife signing off now. My apologies for the vent!


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#56749 - 01/20/04 12:26 PM Re: Question.
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
I am really glad this thread is alive again. And to express my gratitude I am going to try not to make this long and rambly. But I have been thinking about it a lot.

Do I hate the bigger boys and very young men who abused my boyfriend? Maybe I do and maybe I don't. I'm pretty sure that someone older "taught" them what to do, I know they lived traumatic lives. I know that some of them are trying to move on and be better men than they were boys. I have contempt for them, they were old enough to know better, there's no way to excuse what they did, but I think there is a way for me to understand it without stripping them of their humanity. I don't have to ask, "what kind of a young man, etc." I know what kind of a young man does those things, and all the words I have to describe him do evoke pity and sadness in me. Still, the first thing that comes to my face when you say his name looks a lot like rage.

NOT SO in all cases. At some point in our lives--usually an earlier point than we'd like to admit to--we start making our own choices. And in my opinion, as soon as you make a choice that makes you responsible for another person, your access to lots of other choices is denied. I do not feel sorry or sad for people who bring children into the world without committing themselves to the well being of those children. I hate them and I hope I never stop hating them. I understand that even sick people get pregnant, that parents are people too, etc. But you know what? We live in a world of resources. And there are some of us who survive terrible childhoods and still manage not to be monstrous parents. So there must be some element of choice in allowing such a cycle to continue. I am a great mom. I was a great mom when I was 16. And I had no frame of reference, no one to fall back on, when it came to mothering. The only "mother" experience I had ever had was one that I did not wish to repeat. So, I didn't. I refuse to believe that I am so extraordinary and great that no one else who had grown up in a house like mine could have done what I did to ensure the well-being of their children. And yet I still had social workers asking me leading questions IN THE MATERNITY WARD, with my newborn right next to me, ignoring my boyfriend (brushing him off as a future deadbeat dad no doubt), nurses telling me to attend the same stupid parenting class over and over again, the day-after visiting nurse calling the house twice after she'd left to make sure I hadn't given up trying to feed the baby. Did the 30 year old new mother in the bed next to me get this kind of treatment? Did anyone ask her what she would do when her husband left her? Did her husband get ignored and shunned when the nurse came to their home the next day? I don't think so. I wish I had been as brave and loud then as I am now, so that I could have asked them WHERE THEY HAD ALL BEEN DURING MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD.

Which brings me to my other point--it takes a lot of people to let a child down. I do not feel sorry or sad for the professionals--teachers, preachers, counselors, etc. whose job it is to care for and protect children, who don't care for or protect them. And I mean the abusive ones but I also mean the ones who let it happen. I hate the priest who didn't abuse my boyfriend, but didn't help him either. I hate the therapist who didn't abuse my boyfriend but didn't help him either. I hate the teachers who didn't abuse my boyfriend but didn't protect him from the other children, who saw the way he came to school every day and never called home. In a way I can restore humanity to those traumatized boys way before I can restore it to these cowards and fakes.

I want to end with something a little more positive. I do believe in forgiveness. Not "I need to you let me make amends so I can get to my next step" forgiveness, not "I forgive you even though you're not sorry, so there" forgiveness. I believe that two people honestly expressing their regrets and trying to understand the other's pain, and trying to heal, not bury, that pain and regret, is among the most redeeming acts of humanity. I believe that this act can take away hate. But I also believe that it is far more rare and difficult than the confessions and apologies that we experience most of the time.

that's all ;\)
Sar


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