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#56424 - 11/29/03 05:26 PM survivors in love in Paris
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Hey !
My name is Caetel, I am a new member here and I am writing from far away, from Paris.
I am French but bilingual so I have the chance to visit this amazing website.
I am 33 and a female incest survivor, abused by my father from 8 months old until 11. The memories came back only last year in September and I have been in therapy since December. I have made amazing progress ever since though it is hard every day. I am also a member of http://www.inceste.org a very active French website which counts more and more male survivors. It was about time we recognized the trauma inflicted to boys in France.
So I met last February a great guy Vincent who is an incest survivor too. He was abused by his mother. We became really close friends and our relationship deepened (without sex though) until he tried to sabotage twice the relationship. He provoked me to "abandon" him in July (after a first break up in May). He said abruptly that he did not love me, had no feelings at all for me though he showed the complete opposite the days before.
It was a terrible blow for me, I was devasted. Then he tried to see me in public (we members of the website based in Paris like to meet up in a friendly bar evey week or so). I found out that he only comes because he know I am going to be there. We are kind of getting closer again but I am afraid to be hurt again. He started to open up 2 weeks ago after he had confronted his parents (especially his mum) and after he had given a public interview on the website (if you can understand French, please go and visit the website, because he and another guy have said very interesting stuff about their therapy, the way they handle things now, their difficulties..)
I have come to understand that Vincent's major difficulties are sexual dysfunctionsand fear of intimacy (tenderness turns him into a panick).
He is stuck with me in a "nothing zone", he wants to see me but he always "choose" to do it in public. He clearly lacks confidence and I can sense that his main worry is that he would want to be perfect in bed with. I think he also wants to be so perfect because he knows everything about me and how much I suffered in the past.
I really don't know what to do right now to help him, he is very shy and secretive and he is suffering in silence most of the time.
Please help me and give me guidance.
Tonight there was another meeting but I prefered not to go because I get hurt all the time when I see him but I have to pretend nothing is going on (because of the others, I can't be myself and we cannot talk.
Thank you and I am really happy to have join this website.
Love and hugs to everybody from France

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#56425 - 11/29/03 07:59 PM Re: survivors in love in Paris
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Caetel
Thank you for the kind words about 'our' site, we believe it's about the best of it's kind.

Your friend Vincent sounds like so many of us, the sabotage, fear of intimacy, it's a terrible thing to overcome - but you know that already.

I have no experience of maternal abuse, but many guys here do. I'm sure some will be along soon.

I'm the site administrator here, and I'll put a copy of your post on the Male Survivors Forum to direct them here.

It's great to see another nationality here, and don't apologise for your English, it's perfect.

I have also sent you a Private Message, to find it go to the flashing envelope logo at the top left of this page and click on "You have unread private messages"

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#56426 - 11/30/03 02:09 AM Re: survivors in love in Paris
gryffindor Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/03
Posts: 131
Loc: St. Charles, Illinois
Caetel,

Welcome to MS. I am the friend of a survivor who was abused by his babysitter, while his mother watched, when he was 5, by his mother when he was about 13 to 15+/-, and raped by some girls at his camp. He has told me no details about the experience with his mother and few about the other perpetrators (perps). I don't ask because he volunteered the information in the first place, and I don't feel that it is appropriate for me to bring up the subject. On the other hand, I don't pretend that he never told me. The abuse and incest are a part of his history, which I accept because I accept him totally.

I wish I could give you some tips on how to help your survivor, Vincent. I don't think there is anything you can do to help him other than telling him about this site. If he can't read English, then you and he can sit at a computer together, and you translate some of the posts for him. Some survivors of mother/son incest have posted. It makes for very painful reading. It would probably be better if you didn't read those to him because they might trigger him, that is cause flashbacks or memory floods.

If he isn't in therapy, encourage him to find a therapist. The home page of this website has some informational links, including tips on therapist shopping.

It can be very hard to be the girlfriend of a survivor, as you have found out. Relationship sabotage is to be expected. It will happen many times during a relationship. This won't make much sense to you, but try not to take the sabotage personally because it really has nothing to do with who you are. It has to do with his terrible fear of intimacy with the woman he loves. Remember his mother, whom he loved and depended upon, totally betrayed him. Since he was a child or adolescent, he made a connection between love, closeness, and betrayal. The only way to break this connection is to remain his friend despite the sabotage. Let him know that he hurt you in a quiet, nonaccusing way, if you feel that you must let him know at all. After he has sabotaged the relationship a few times, you will stop feeling hurt. Also it sounds to me like Vincent still cares for you very much. He is just afraid to be close to you or alone with you. Let that be okay with you. Allow him to control the parameters of your relationship, that is to set the boundaries of how close or far apart you and he will be. He needs to control these boundaries in order to feel safe. The very best thing you can do is make certain that he feels safe with you no matter what happens; so never push intimacy. Everything that I've said here will take an enormous amount of self-control and patience on your part. It also means that your relationship with Vincent will develop very slowly. You must be ready for that reality. The beauty of slow development is that you and he will get to know each other very well; you will find out how compatible you are and if you are truly in love.

I wish you and all of your friends at inceste.org many blessings and the best of luck. I'm so glad that you are from France and have found MS. I will visit inceste.org, but my French is virtually a blank so it will be challenging. :p

Mary

_________________________
"Where there's a will, there's a way." American Folk Saying

"Had I not fallen, I could not have arisen; had I not sat in darkness, I would not have recognized the light." Midrash Tehillim Ch. 22

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#56427 - 11/30/03 02:41 AM Re: survivors in love in Paris
Tribear Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Caetel:
Hey !
My name is Caetel...from Paris...
So I met last February a great guy Vincent who is an incest survivor too. He was abused by his mother. ...Love and hugs to everybody from France
Hi Caetel,

I wish you peace and a happy life for the pain you have been through, and as you also try to support a relationship through the confusion you wrote about.

My mother was not my only perpetrator, but she was the last one, when I was 17 years old--maybe earlier too but not sure. I started out thinking her abuse would be the least of my worries, since it did not 'hurt' like the other rapes by males-please excuse my frankness.

Anyway, as time has passed now to 11 years since I first remembered her raping me, it turns out that it's one of the most confusing and lingering acts of abuse to put behind me. We first learn of love from our mother, and when they betray and confuse us with sexual pictures of them in our head, boy it is very bad for us.

They say all sexual abuse is violence, but the rape did not seem violent as I think of violence. She entered my room in the middle of the night and started crying, very sad about her own life. She woke me from a deep sleep, and I was barely awake when she started touching me in a sexual way, in preparation for more than that. She told me she loved me over and over again as she proceeded, she seemed very sad and needy. I was frozen about what to do, totally confused and numb I think.

Unfortunately, she had a very large 'sexual response' at the end of the act--I wish I'd never seen that. People wonder how a man can be raped--all of that is how. My body also reacted, as I'm told the body will do. My point is, that I felt she needed me more than I felt I could refuse her, and I guess a part of me was willing to comply to try to comfort her any way I could. I really wasn't thinking of what would happen next, it just happened without trying.

So now, to be VERY very honest, I know I have this (yuck) bond with my mother that includes a shared sexual interaction--that kind of memory should have been only for another woman in that way. I wish she had asked for anything else but that, as the way to get her needs met. I love her in some ways, but I hate her for that.

I am being very honest about this, but I am afraid I will come across as sick--sorry. I am just being honest. A female who had been abused by her father helped me once, she said she understood, and simply said, "I did it because I would have done anything for my father, I loved him very much".

I have been able to be intimate with a few women, stayed married to one for 15 years, but that is over now. The relationships were pretty functional at times, and very numbing to me at other times. I was able to fill their needs in a healthy way, but I seemed to end up with ones that kept saying, in effect, "My needs are more important than yours". I am now sick of filling any woman's needs if they are very heavy on the taking side of things, and do not listen to what I need in return.

I don't know how all of that sounds, but I am trying to speak from the heart. Not all women are like that most of the time I guess, but when they are, I suppose I remember what my mother took from me, how her needs were more important than how the rape would affect the REST OF MY LIFE, and I get angry about that.

I am picky now about wanting women to trade attention with me, or 'take turns'--sometimes more me, sometimes more them. Still, it is easy to fall back into the old pattern of forgetting my needs if a woman starts crying or talking about her horrible life. Hmmm...I don't know if I know me very well at times about this whole mess.

So that is my introduction. It was long, if you even got this far. I don't know what you're looking for. Is there anything in particular that you want to know?

Regards,

Tribear


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#56428 - 11/30/03 12:28 PM Re: survivors in love in Paris
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Dear Mary and Tribear

Many many thanks for your replies. I have been thinking about the relationship. I was angry yesterday but I have learnt in the last few months that I should be angry at Vincent's mother and not him. I know he is trying his best and the fear and pain he experiences make him very sad and even more lonely.
I have also learnt to take care of myself, concentrate on my own healing so as to show him that I am fighting to get better for myself and also because I want the relationship to work.
Tribear you said something very true about you not liking needy women. I know that Vincent's mother turned him into her confident for her miserable life. He was placed as her husband and sexual partner. He had no brother or sister so he lived in the golden motherly prison.
I have noticed that sometimes he does not like it when I talk about my problem and if I want to be honest I would say that sometimes my voice carries that neediness.
Vincent has been in therapy for 5 years (seeing an analyst) and I am seeing a psychotherapist. The work is very different so I have understood that his changes are very slow.
He has twice tried to sabotage the relationship: first by turning to a common friend, making me believe he was in love with her and the second time only a few days after I returned from South Africa where I had spent one month. I told him I loved him the day before I left. He wrote to me nearly everyday. I saw him on the day I landed in Paris. We had a very romantic afternoon. I could tell he was very happy and emotional inside but he would not show it. When we hugged and I put my arm around his waist, he seemed very surprised, happy, confused, shy and sort of troubled because we were in public. We talked a lot and then he mentioned he would go on vacations with a girl he fancied at university (he had told me about her a few months before).
I thought it was strange. I was kind of cool about it but I did not know what was the reaction he hoped for. I trusted him so ?
Three days later, I made the mistake of telling him I loved him and I wanted to spend the night in his arms. I did not imply anything sexual but he freaked out. He told me on the phone he did not love me, he had absolutely no feeling for me. I was so devastated and shocked I had a panick attack on the phone, I was shaking, my breathing got shallow and I even had an out of body experience. Vincent was so worried, he kept talking to me. When I was able to talk, I told him I was floating with other souls and I did not want to return into my body because it was much better "over there". I think Vincent realized how much he had hurt me. After that I broke up with him. I tried to protect myself from the pain and I had my own issues to sort out. After a few weeks, he came back to the website meetings and made it clear he was trying to come near me.
Mary you are right about that control thing. The problem is I have myself no confidence what so ever and I am also a control freak (because of my past) so the balance is extremely difficult to obtain.
Tribear you have mentioned confusion and this is a big problem when the mother is the abuser. For Vincent it started when he was a baby through "pathological nursing" and then the sexual abuse as such (I think oral sexe though he never mentionned it). The biggest issue is the pleasure and excitement he felt. He has thought for years he was dirty because he had all these fantasies, he did not like having a penis, he thought sex was dirty and he also suffered on compulsive masturbation which added to the confusion: "if I have all these sexual desires, I am not normal and I was the one who asked for sexual attentions with my mum in the first place".
Some of his emotions are still blocked inside. I remember during one of our dates he was talking and I could feel his emotions resurfacing and him struggling to repress them. I felt like holding his hand or something but I got really afraid that he would felt "abused" or hurt. Antway he later admitted that if he had shown his emotions that night he would have broken down into tears.
I have a question regarding the sexual dysfunctions: what can I say to let him know that I am happy taking things very slowly as regarding sex (well I have myself huge fears to overcome). Also the first time we got close, it had amazing consequences. One night he put his arm around my waist and hold me close. As a result I experienced 24h of orgasms alternating with panick attacks every 10 min or so. A day later I felt my womb was expanding and relaxing. When I told him, he admitted he had also experienced a big blow of desires and fantasies. So us getting together has really triggered major stuff. I don't know if that scared him even more. I told him that night, I really became a woman thanks to him. I thanked him for that and I felt he was proud and happy, he gained a little confidence.
But sex is such a delicate matter, guys just don't talk about it. I don't want him to feel offended but at the moment he would rather suffer in silence than talk. He is so unsecure that he panicks: when he sees me with a guy, when I don't turn up or when I say I am going to go away (vacations, work...).
I sure feel he is certain of being undeserving of my love. I have sent him two "major" love poems \:D . Since he is very romantic, I hope they had an impact. He must treasure them since he has barely mentioned them !!!
Tribear you talk about relationships with women but are you the one to make the move ? Do you tend to take time ? What makes you go for it ?
Thank you again for your help, it is very comforting.

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#56429 - 11/30/03 04:02 PM Re: survivors in love in Paris
Tribear Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Caetel:
Dear Mary and Tribear

1. Tribear you said something very true about you not liking needy women.... I have noticed that sometimes he does not like it when I talk about my problem and if I want to be honest I would say that sometimes my voice carries that neediness.

2. Tribear you have mentioned confusion and this is a big problem when the mother is the abuser... The biggest issue is the pleasure and excitement he felt. He has thought for years he was dirty because he had all these fantasies, he did not like having a penis, he thought sex was dirty

3. I have a question regarding the sexual dysfunctions: what can I say to let him know that I am happy taking things very slowly as regarding sex (well I have myself huge fears to overcome).

4. But sex...guys just don't talk about it.

5. Tribear you talk about relationships with women but are you the one to make the move ? Do you tend to take time ? What makes you go for it ?
Caetel,

Good day to you. See if any of this helps.

1. We are all needy sometimes, you're not doing anything wrong, per se. It's not neediness that is the problem. The problem is that my mother poisoned the waters of neediness for me, and now it can be a trigger. I'm working on it. Some neediness is to be expected and even good in intimate relationships, in my opinion. It is how we connect on the deepest levels, and get our deepest needs met. I like connecting on those deep levels, and when someone trusts me enough to be vulnerable. I like it when I can be vulnerable with them too.

2. I have DID. Confusion?? The night of the rape by my mother, she raped a new female alter of mine, not 'me'. The thing is, although the 17 year old female alter doesn't like my mother, she thinks that makes her a a lesbian. In fact, she insists on it. As far as feeling dirty, I tried to disfuigure myself with a knife when I was about 14, and I think that's all I'll say about that.

3. That sounded kind and perfect, just the way you said it. Maybe write it in a pretty card, and mail it? Or hold his hand, look at him, and gently tell him. It would reach me.

I've found that a heartfelt show of respect of sexual boundaries, soon eases tension over the issue, and it's often not as big a problem as I thought it was going to be on a given occasion. Certain specific actions can still be a trigger, but it leaves lots of other options. That's just me though.

4. I have talked about sex on several occasions, though it IS a sensitive and vulnerable subject. Trust, and understanding without judgement is a must if I'm going to continue the conversation!

So maybe your statement is a generalization, or maybe I am an exception. Now that I think of it, women have told me that I am an exception about that. It's made sex more fun for me, to be able to talk and listen.

But perhaps some women also like a certain amount of mystery in their men about feelings, so they can project their own? Some mystery can be an aphrodesiac for both genders--I didn't make the rules.

So--love and sex: It's complicated enough, even more so when abuse has occurred. I would think that some talking about sex is a must in cases of abuse, or things will be sabotaged.

Some sort of 'reward' may make a sexual conversation more comfortable for a man, like saying, "When you listened to me about that, I felt so safe", or, "It turned me on" (we hear THAT one everytime, but I'm not suggesting you say it if it's not true). I'm trying to picture all of this in real time as much as I can.

5. OK, this is embarrassing, but I'll say it.

Yes, I often take time with a new relationship. I am shy and insecure about approaching women most of the time. That's not so attractive in a person I hear, especially a man, but that's how I am---for now anyway. I can miss obvious hints, and realize them MONTHS later, I kid you not. I keep a list of "Signals that a woman like you" I found on the Interenet, where I can remind myself on occasion. I'm getting better at making a move.

Something I need to say! You know how women say they want to hug with no sex expected sometimes? They get irritated sometimes. Well, I hear that now, much better. I'm getting older and wiser. But the nuzzling and hugging, it's a real turn on for me, and probably for most men. I think it's how I'm wired, and other men too. I know many men hurry, but that's them and they're missing a good time-LOL. So what I'm saying is it can be a good 'tool' if more sexual closeness is what you want. Start slow and let nature take its course. With abuse, we must always be prepared to hear "No". It's another reason abuse is a crappy deal and a theft.

So I guess much of what motivates me is clear signals that someone I'm attracted to is also attracted to me. If it's someone new, it's friendliness, a very warm smile that shows itself when they see me, laughing at my jokes, and then some other chemistry that I can't explain. A friendly smile and demeanor makes a cute girl become beautiful and very desireable to me. Maybe I'm not helping with this. Like I said, it's embarrassing.

I hope some of that helped.

And I sure hope I find someone who cares enough about me, to take the time to make a research project out of me and my feelings. There's a good me in here, and I hope I don't spend the rest of my life alone.

Oh well,

Ed


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#56430 - 12/01/03 01:23 PM Re: survivors in love in Paris
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Bienvenue Caetel - je suis aussi un "survivor" d'abus (psychologique et emotions) qui est avec un autre "survivor" - desolee mais mon francais ecrit n'est pas parfait.. je peux lire le francais plus que je peux ecrire!

Bienvenue a notre site - il y a beaucoup des "heros" ici - ils ont beaucoup d'information et conseils (a cause d'experience, malheuresement) au sujet de abus. Si tu as un question - n'importe quoi - n'hesiter pas a demander....

Ok so my french writing needs a lot of work but I am trying! I am much better at reading and speaking (aah...the hazards of growing up in English Canada). However since my reading is good I will check out that site you referred to us!

PAS


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#56431 - 12/01/03 03:08 PM Re: survivors in love in Paris
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Salut Pas !
Félicitations pour avoir écrit tout ça en français ! Notre langue est très difficile alors si tu veux pratiquer avec moi, pas de problème !
You said you are a survivor and also a partner so first I would like to ask how you managed to get together which obviously means getting over a lot of fears. One of the problems I found most overwhelming with V. is that we were very often out of sync ! When I am ready he is not and when he gives me obvious hints he is, I miss it completely and also just like Tribear I realize months later that it was a BIG hint !
I should ask you guys for a list of these hints that shows the guy is interested and I will learn it by hear and fix it in front of my desk ! lol \:\)
Well I had my first hint confirmed this week end when I boycotted the inceste.org party. I rang V last night as I could feel/sense he was sad. He was really happy to hear my voice and he told me that in the end he did not turn up at the party ! How strange !!!!! I guess someone told him I would not be coming. We had such an nice chat. I managed to keep the pressure out (thanks to all your advices) though I shared what happened during my week. He was definately a little surprised that I would want to ring him just like that since the big blow of last summer had damaged the relationship. I guess he was happy to be able to share the pressure at work (his studies in psychology).
Pas if you can listen to his interview on inceste.org, please let me know what you thought.
Tribear: thank you for the idea of sending the card, I will do that though I think it is a little early. I still need him to admit that what we have even if it doesn't look like a "normal" relationship IS in fact a relationship. I am still waiting for that be step from him when he can admit he has this desire with me.
Sorry I have to go in haste, going for dinner as it is 8pm over here and I am being kidnapped by a friend to have a pizza !!!
I will write again later on !
Love to you all with my blessing. Thanks to you I was able to feel more at peace and ring V !!!
Speak later !
Plein de bisous (en français)
Caroline

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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#56432 - 12/02/03 02:22 PM Re: survivors in love in Paris
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Caetel:
Salut Pas !
You said you are a survivor and also a partner so first I would like to ask how you managed to get together which obviously means getting over a lot of fears.


Our relationship started out of a friendship that happened well before the abuse - we were in fact childhood friends well before either of us were abused significantly. The 'seeds' were already there in our lives at that time but we were friends as kids - and we resumed that friendship 20 years later and it just developed into a romance. We are in fact planning a wedding in september 2004.

Our friendship does not mean that it has been easy - we have had a lot of issues, fears, etc that have been difficult and I am sure that without the initial friendship and the fact that we are older (mid 30's) and are really wanting this relationship to work as so many others have disintegrated, we are committed to each other and to our healing.

Quote:

One of the problems I found most overwhelming with V. is that we were very often out of sync ! When I am ready he is not and when he gives me obvious hints he is, I miss it completely and also just like Tribear I realize months later that it was a BIG hint !


For us we have just decided that it is too hard to go on hints and that we have to be EXTREMELY clear about what we need and what we want and the other person has to be extremely clear about their ability to meet that need or not. Hints just dont work. Clear communication is definitely required.

Quote:

Pas if you can listen to his interview on inceste.org, please let me know what you thought.


Je vais essayer de faire ca - if I have the time! Mais ma vie.. je suis SI occupe (so busy!) avant de Noel!

Quote:

Plein de bisous (en français)


Plein de Bisous back at you \:\)

PAS (mon nom n'est pas *PAS* mais c'est un pseudonyme!) \:\)


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#56433 - 12/02/03 07:50 PM Re: survivors in love in Paris
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Salut Pas !
Merci pour tes conseils et j'ai bien compris que Pas c'était ton surnom !!! Je vais te motiver pour écrire en français !
So what I can say for now is that I am forcing myself and Vincent to leave the old habits dictated by our fears to talk or act with hints or with the protection of our computer screen. Our friendship developed on the internet but our break up has taught me to be clear and straight though it scared him at first.
I was able to tell him :
"I have understood and accepted recently that I had desire for you" (please remember I am in therapy as well for sexual abuse)How brave that one was ! He was in shock and well thank God I was leaving for South Africa the following day. I barely managed to look at him. He only replied: "will you write to me everyday when you are in S A " \:\)
"I care for you"
Even when I am scared or shy, I will phone, to enquire how he is. I am getting better at speaking but it is hard for me because I am so unsecure. I doubt every minute. It is not natural for me to speak clearly about my needs and wants.
And well I send him poems. Here is the last one:

Océan

Ce soir je suis épave
J'ai échoué
Retranchée à l'intérieur de mon corps
Abandonnée à l'intérieur de moi
Rivages déserts d'une île perdue
Introuvable sur aucune carte
Loin de tout, loin de toi.
Mes désirs sont des vagues qui s'échouent au hasard
Avec violence ou passion
Douceur et désespoir
Vagues silencieuses, inaudibles et cachées
Je suis une île qu'on ne peut aborder
Sans volonté de non retour:
Avalon ou Pitcairn
Ile fantôme qui se dérobe à toi
Ile déserte aperçue tant de fois !
Les marins comme toi finissent par renoncer
Trop de vents, de courants, de marées
L'île est dangereuse autant l'éviter
Elle fascine pourtant
Mais quel est son secret ?
Est-elle accueillante ?
Peut-on s'y reposer ?
On ne le saura jamais.
Marin de fortune qui me regarde de loin
Ecrasé sur mes barrières de corail
Déchiré sur mon coeur barbelé
La marée t'emportera comme d'autres avant toi
Laissant ton seul pull rouge pour unique au revoir
Et je resterai là au soleil couchant
Pour allumer les feux d'un espoir renaissant
Attendre la marée, attendre l'ouragan
Celui plus fort que tous les autres,
Qui te ramènera dans mes bras
Je te regarderai un peu surprise,
Sans doute émerveillée
Toi ce mystère jamais éllucidé.
Tu poseras sur moi un regard tendre et tranquille,
Sage et heureux vainqueur d'une odyssée épique
Valeureux conquérant de mon âme ébranlée
Toi mon coeur, mon ami, mon amour
Le guérisseur de mon âme blessée.


C'est tout pour ce soir !
See ya

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

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