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#56313 - 12/26/06 02:59 PM Something curious to me
VN Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 723
In the 'forgiveness' thread, several people have said things like, 'some things can not be forgiven', or that some people do not deserve forgiveness. I do not agree or disagree completely with either those things, but it make something curious to me.

What kind of person Do deserve forgiveness for being perpetrator of child abuse? What kind of things must that person do, or say, to show that they are someone who deserve forgiveness? Or is there not anything they can do to correct what they have done and forgiveness never can be done?

I do not mean to create something where arguments or not tolerating another person's thoughts are to be done. I am just curious, of what different people here think deserves forgiveness, or if it is just impossible. Please, no arguing or not respecting views of other people. Thank you.

VN


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#56314 - 12/26/06 05:23 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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Visha,

My question would be, "Who doesn't deserve forgiveness?"

All children are all born innocent. That means that for at least some part of their lives, perps were innocent children. Then something happened to change that and they chose a dark path.

Personally I believe that every person is capable of redemption and a return to the innocence of their childhood. And my choice to forgive perps is a reflection of that belief. When I forgive a perp I do two things: 1) I acknowledge his prior innocence, and 2) I express my hope that he can return to that innocence.

I don't see this as a "gift" or something that I am giving up to my perp. Instead, I see it as a gift to humanity in general. Forgiveness has brought me internal peace, and that internal peace has brought me hope that there can be a greater peace in the world. And that is really the truth of it. Forgiveness is a gift of love; to yourself, to humanity, and to the innocent child that became your perp.

When you think of forgiving your perp, reflect on his prior innocence, and ask yourself; "if I could go back in time and give that child one ray of hope, so that he chooses not to become a criminal, would I do it?" And if your answer is yes, then I ask, what is stopping you from forgiving him now?

Forgiveness is nothing more than that. It is a message to that innocent child that there is hope. It doesn't excuse your perp of anything. It doesn't excuse what he did to you and other children. Your perp may never know if you choose to forgive him, and quite possibly, even if he did know, he probably wouldn't care. Your perp may even be actively molesting children. None of that really matters. Forgiveness is just the message, from you to yourself, and to humanity, that innocence can be regained.

"I worry about fast forgivers. They tend to forgive quickly in order to avoid their pain. Or they forgive fast in order to get an advantage over the people they forgive. And their instant forgiving only makes things worse. People who have been wronged badly and wounded deeply should give themselves time and space before they forgive. There is a right moment to forgive. We cannot predict it in advance; we can only get ourselves ready for it when it arrives. Don't do it quickly, but don't wait too long. If we wait too long to forgive, our rage settles in and claims squatter's rights to our souls."
-- Lewis B. Smedes.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56315 - 12/26/06 10:39 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
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I think that sometimes if not all we treat life like a mystery, something not quite right, not being able sometimes to react the way we really feel.

I was going to post another thread about how we perceive ourselves against what other ppl would think of reaction to what we say.

Forgiveness is never that, but the ability to put the shame and guilt on another track until it comes back.

It is about forgiving yourself for something out of your control, but lacking the resource to bring about justice of the past.

How many times do we judge others?
We do it every day, sometimes unconsciously.
I would forgive those who do not do me personal damage, and would expect apology off other person, if it was not, of truth,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56316 - 12/27/06 03:14 AM Re: Something curious to me
FormerTexan Offline
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VN,

(Let me say to avoid arguing with anyone that this is how forgiveness works for me...)

I have learned for myself that forgiveness is possible once I process the hurt behind the crime. Forgiveness is more for me than it is the perp. Once the hurt is felt and dealt with, I can forgive. What if the perp is not alive to ask forgiveness? Should I carry their burden with me the rest of my life, hoping for a request for forgiveness that will never happen? Am I to hold fast to this debt someone owes me with no chance of ever collecting it?

Forgiveness to me is not simply writing off the crime and living with my losses brought upon me by someone who was self-serving in their crime against me. It is not simply letting them off the hokk without so much as a whimper of the crime doen against me. Their wrong will indeed be declared one way or another, through my words or through my actions - hopefully only in healthy ways.

Andy

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#56317 - 12/27/06 04:12 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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i will agree that forgivness has to be something you do for yourself ,cause your perp dont care ,if he cared about the outcome of his actions well he wouldnt have done it would he?if my perp could travel through time and undo what he did ? i still wouldnt forgive him .i looked up the defenition of forgive ,'to pardon,to remit ,to overlook' nothing in there about it making you feel better,to overlook? like it never happened?id rather forget than forgive and damned if i'll waste one moment trying to decide if i should do it. i feel good about my decision ,it does not bother me ,and my hate does not consume me it shows me im strong . what could they do to deserve forgivness ? nothing . they dont give a rats ass if we forgive them or not.im sure that when they got tired of abusing us they forgot about us ,my perp dont spend sleepless nights wondering if i forgive him ,why should i waste one minute wondering if i should? just as forgivness is a personal choice ,not forgiving is too. if i cant go back and reclaim my innocence ,then how could my perp ever do that? i keep hearing that we need to forgive ourselves ,i just dont get that at all ?

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#56318 - 12/31/06 06:59 PM Re: Something curious to me
FLRich Offline
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Visha,

While I agree with Nobby regarding "who doesn't deserve to be forgiven?" I am personally not in a place to do that. I dont' care to forgive them for what they took from me. If that makes me a weak or bad person, so be it. I've been called and made to feel worse in my life.

As long as I can live with myself, I dont' feel any need to forgive and make my perps feel any better about their lives. I honestly try not to think about them too much, but as anyone here knows, that is not always possible.


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#56319 - 12/31/06 08:29 PM Re: Something curious to me
WalkingSouth Offline
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Like Andy, I'm going to add a caveat at the beginning of this saying:

"This is only the way I see it, not a statement that anyone else is wrong or that they should believe it the way I do."

I don't know......... Perhaps I'm a heretic here, but it seems to me there is lots of confusion between forgiving another for a wrong done, and personal growth.

To me forgiveness requires the action of two people. The perp needs to feel genuine sorrow and repentance for what he did and must seek to make it amends for his wrongful actions. The victim must then choose to accept the heartfelt apology and to grant forgiveness.

Personal growth, on the other hand, is the victim simply deciding he is no longer going to allow the wrongs done in the past to fill his life with poison. In essence it is him getting to the point where if forgiveness is ever sought he will be able to take it on board and be able to forgive should he choose to do so.

I'm not sure the term "deserve forgiveness" applies to someone who is not repentant of the evil they have done.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#56320 - 12/31/06 08:36 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
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Let us replace the word forgivenss with reconciliation.
Reconciliation with who you really are, from the little boy who was innocent.

The man who has grown from the little boy, to be a good man on earth,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56321 - 12/31/06 09:11 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by walkingsouth:
I'm not sure the term "deserve forgiveness" applies to someone who is not repentant of the evil they have done.
Ask yourselves these questions. They are horrible questions to ask, but I will not apologise for listing them. I beg you to please accept these questions as they are, that is as "universal" questions, not questions that I am asking you personally. I can't answer them honestly myself. However I do believe that they can lead to the truth of forgiveness.


Are you truly repentant of the all the evil that you have done?


Do you expect to be forgiven by the people that you yourself have wronged?


Are you aware of every single wrong that you have committed against others?


And if you are not aware of all the wrongs that you have committed against others, how (and when) do you plan to make amends for these wrongs?


Or do you feel justified in wronging others? If so, why do you feel that you are justified in this? And would you consider it fair to be judged by the same measure with which you are judging others? If not, why not?


Do you understand the universal concepts of Peace, Hope and Love? Do you consider yourself a peaceful, hopeful and loving person, as defined by these universal concepts?


Are you aware of the Golden Rule of Humanity? This rule is present in every single religion, belief and creed on the planet. Do you accept that the truth of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" applies to every single human being, including you? If not, why not?


If you accept that you may have wronged others without knowing,
that you deserve to be judged as you judge others,
that you expect others to treat you as well as you treat others,
and that you understand the concepts of peace, hope and love,


then why do you feel that perps do not deserve forgiveness?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56322 - 12/31/06 09:25 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
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I often use that>
_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56323 - 12/31/06 10:08 PM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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it just goes on and on !nobby is it fair to assume that everyone has done some terrible evil thing to someone else? i do not accept that i have wronged others knowingly or unknowingly.how can you compare anything i may have done to the devestation that abuse causes? yes i would consent to being judged by the standards i use to judge perps ,nothing ,NOTHING i have ever done in my life could put me on a level with those who abuse.my standards for them are not so unattainable ,they are simply that you DO NOT FUCK LITTLE CHILDREN!OR BEAT THEM OR DESTROY THEIR LIVESis that such a high standard?is it too high ? when they chose ,yes CHOSE to abuse the so called golden rule no longer applies. talk to the fucking perps about do unto others ,i guess if it applies to me it should apply to them right? so maybe the golden rule says it fine for what the perps did to be done to them ? or does the rule only apply when it suits your needs? also i mean no disrespect to anyone but i am sick of hearing that god will judge them if and when their reign of terror finally ends. its like saying oh well let them go on abusing cause i know someday god will punish them ,no thats not good enough,thats a fucking cop out. oh well maybe god will punish them no way not good enough. i didnt choose to abuse ,its a choice ,just like forgiving ,by making their choice the perps decided that they did nothing wrong ,what the fuck makes you think they want our forgivness? normal rules do not allpy to these animals.do you think they sit and wring their hands thinking god is gonna punish them ? i know we will never agree on this but you guys are living in a world that dont exist and you of all people should understand this!you can explain that god cant help or stop abuse cause we have free will ,but turn right around and say yes god will punish them ? so in your opinion god does nothing to help but oh boy is he gonna make them pay !which way is it?god does nothing or god will punish them ? i dont think it can work both ways ,either god does nothing ,which i believe,or god can do something just not till its too late. also why do you feel perps do deserve forgivness?tell me please and not about how at sometime they were innocent children ,do you know that? i know i'll get about a hundred lines or quotes from the bible about god punishing them ,but how about something that at least makes sense? you base everything on faith ,well i have no faith in anything except the fact that perps are evil and if they are not punished right here and now they will never be punished at all ,they are guilty of murder and deserve to be punished accordingly.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#56324 - 12/31/06 10:45 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
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Adam. I could have chosen to abuse but didnt.
Why? I am an abused boy of past, so it goes without saying that I will abuse because of my past.

If you look on the drug abuse problems, they must be kids who were abused or brought up with no future.

They act out to get money for drugs etc., finish their lives.
If we did go on to abuse, we would not walk the streets thru fear.

Nobby is only trying to say how all of us should treat each other in the world, the way it should be, and no other, and to respect others for who they are and not judge others on how you perceive them in this world.

None of us should have to fight, but we did, and no other will ever have a chance to do it again.

Nobody has a right to hurt k,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56325 - 12/31/06 11:31 PM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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i agree 200%,and i try to live that way ,i really do treat people the way id like to be treated im not a saint ,but i can say i never intentionaly hurt anybody or planned to then did it . why should that rule apply to abusers? should i give them the same consideration i would give you? should i feel exactly the same compassion for them ,that i do for all those here who been hurt? what does that say about your experience? do they deserve the same respect i would show you? i wont minimize what happened to me or you by putting those who did it on the same level with us. even though we been destroyd, ripped apart and stuck back together again ,we live by rules,and yes do unto others is one of them ,do the rules of sanity apply to perps? do they have any morals at all .do they value human life as priceless, do they protect the children? no ,but suddenly we are gonna apply the golden rule to them ? the golden rule ony works if its used with a lot of other rules.somebody should explain it to the perps right before they execute them

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its not hard to fall
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#56326 - 01/01/07 03:51 AM Re: Something curious to me
melliferal Offline
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Visha, everybody is capable of redemption. I really believe that there are certain things that people can do, that won't make the past OK, but will show that they are truly remorseful, and truly understanding of the hurt or trouble they caused, and would give everything they had to go back and not do it.

But everyone is also capable of murder. Everybody, on the face of the planet, is physically capable of ending someone else's life. Should everybody be locked up because they are all potential murderers? Of course not. They have to show, beyond a doubt, that they are at least seriously willing to kill someone, before we even think about whether they need to go to prison or not.

I feel this way about forgiveness. Everyone is capable of redemption - but, is it logical that I should forgive them all automatically? I say - of course not. They must show that they are at least willing to try to redeem themselves before they deserve to be forgiven. That is just the way I think.

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#56327 - 01/01/07 06:23 AM Re: Something curious to me
VN Offline
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Perhaps I should restate this.

To those who have NOT forgiven your abusers, and feel you never will: what, if there is anything, that they can do to make you feel differently of it? What kind of things could they say to you, or do and show to you, that they are meaningful of wanting to change, and then deserve to be forgived?

vn


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#56328 - 01/01/07 06:24 PM Re: Something curious to me
melliferal Offline
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Ah. That I can't answer. As I said, I believe there is something, or a series of things, that can be done...but I don't know what they are; I suppose I wouldn't be able to tell you until I saw them done.

Caring enough to try and find me and apologize would be a really good start, I think. Granted, I live on the other side of the country, now - but he knows my real name and I'm not exactly some kind of recluse.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#56329 - 01/01/07 07:24 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by shadowkid:
i do not accept that i have wronged others knowingly or unknowingly.how can you compare anything i may have done to the devestation that abuse causes?
You have. We all have.

Here's an example. Say you watch a porno movie and masturbate. Then, later, you learn that the girls in the movie were being forced to work as sex slaves by a criminal organisation. How would you feel about masturbating to that movie?

To me, the act of masturbating to that movie would amount to a rape of these girls. By masturbating, I am using them for my own gratification, and I am also giving my support to the people who have enslaved and abused them.

Now if you met one of these girls later in life, would you expect her to forgive you for what you have done to her? Would you have the courage to even admit what you have done to her, by supporting the people who enslaved and abused her?

Finally, what would you do, if you met the girl, and she said to you, "Before you say anything, please know that I have forgiven you?" How would you respond?

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56330 - 01/01/07 09:19 PM Re: Something curious to me
melliferal Offline
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The example you give, Nobby, explains your premise well enough - but I don't see how it answer's Adam's question. Not everyone masturbates to porn created by slavers. It's possible, again, but that doesn't mean it's automatically true for everyone.

Everyone's done something that has hurt someone's feelings, or pushed them away emotionally, true - it happens all the time, over even small things - like picking someone last for a dodgeball team. But that doesn't put those things on par with sexual abuse.

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Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#56331 - 01/01/07 09:33 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
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Nobby, a man who masturbates to a porn movie is not involved in enslavement.
If he sought that behaviour then he must be, but not if you dont know the source of the material.

If I watch a man being beheaded on a movie, like what happened to a local man here.
Then does it make me complicit in his murder?
No, of course not, and btw I did not, although thousands of others did.

If you pay or subscribe to images of abuse, then you are keeping the perps in their trade.
If you distribute it to others you are complicit in abuse.

We need to be very careful in muddy waters,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56332 - 01/01/07 10:01 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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I am not talking about dodgeball. I am talking about committing serious wrongs against others, which is why I used the example I did. Would you expect someone you had wronged in such a way to forgive you?

In my opinion, there is no absolutely no difference between being a sex offender and supporting a sex offender. The crime is in your heart. If you take satisfaction or enjoyment from the suffering of others, then you are guilty. It is as simple as that.

And yes, the waters are very muddy. It is debatable which acts are "more sinful" than others. We have established our own moral standards, but they are simply ethical opinions and they serve only as guidelines, not rules. They cannot be relied on to determine individual guilt.

For example, in some stone age tribes, cannibalism is accepted and is considered appropriate. For these same tribes, burying the bodies of the dead is considered a horrible crime. However, if you or I, as members of a society that frowns on cannibalism, join them in their cannibalistic feast, are we committing a crime? I would say yes, if, by eating another human being we are getting vicarious pleasure from violating our own society's ethical standards. However, if we were able to completely understand and accept the tribe's beliefs on cannibalism and the treatment of the dead, and we respectfully join them in their ritual, then we are not committing a crime.

By the same token, rape and violent assaults are considered crimes by our society. So if we enjoy depictions of these crimes, or, in my example of the porn movie with enslaved actors, we willingly participate in the crime by supporting its perpetrators, we are then complicit in it. And therefore we have committed a crime against the girls in the movie. To use your example ste, simply watching the beheading is not a crime. I would personally be shocked and saddened by such a video. However, if you take vicarious pleasure in the suffering of the man on the screen, then you have wronged him. And then I ask my question again, would you expect him to forgive you?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56333 - 01/02/07 12:19 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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ok nobby if ten thousand people masturbate to a porn movie and the star is me how fucking far down on my list of those to forgive is my perp? are each of those people going to apologize to me and ask my forgivness? believe it or not i do not watch porn or masturbate because of the things that bastard did to me . also unless your talking about childporn ,the people who do it are not forced to do it they do it for money ,they want you to watch it and buy it . its a really weird example of doing something wrong i think ,i thought you meant something like lying to somebody or something like that. i think you have it backwards as to who was wronged here .we were not the perp! if your guilty for watching the porn what about the asshole that made it ,porn makes me physicaly sick because i have been in front of the camera,its so hot there ,lights so bright, how long will i wait for everyone who watched it to ask my forgivness? it seems your dealing with so many unknown factors ,for me its black and white ,he hurt me ,i hate him ,and im perfectly happy that way. your dealing in what if;s im dealing in what happened.personaly i cant see forgiving as a good thing or a bad one its something people either do or dont do. kinda like masturbating to a porn movie. if i follow that line of reasoning then id starve cause id be responsible for every anmimal that ever died to feed a human ,if you take it far enough hell you'll be to blame for everything .its like saying well i was a child once so im responsible for child porn just because i was used to make it ,and i owe every person who watched it an apology?! how far do you want to carry your forgiving? once again i think this shows how easy it is to stray from the original question that v asked ,what can perps do to make us want to forgive them ? my answer is nothing . but i wont need to make that choice cause my perp thinks he did nothing wrong. adam

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its not hard to fall
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#56334 - 01/02/07 04:55 AM Re: Something curious to me
melliferal Offline
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Again Nobby, it's not the premise of your argument I disagree with; it's your notion that everyone has done something so horrible. I've done a lot of sub-par things in my life - I've stolen a candy bar once, for instance. I've said things to people I didn't really mean. I've given people who asked me things answers which are sometimes the exact opposite of what I really think or feel. None of these equates to the abuse - it's not even in the same ballpark.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#56335 - 01/02/07 06:07 AM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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We've been over the same ground several times here, but nobody has answered my question. I don't care about the severity of the wrong. That is entirely subjective, and the truth is that anyone who you wrong is not going to care how badly hurt you were. They are going to be hurt and angry at you.

So I ask again, would you expect someone that you had wronged to forgive you?

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56336 - 01/02/07 06:44 AM Re: Something curious to me
WalkingSouth Offline
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Since you asked, no. He/she after all is the one who was wronged.

It is not mine to expect.

It is mine to attempt to make right, but that is all I can do. I am only able to take care of the stuff in my yard. Noting I can do about what he/she will do with the stuff in his/hers.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#56337 - 01/02/07 03:05 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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Now we're getting somewhere. Ok, now how would it make you feel if the person approached you and said, "Look, you really hurt me back then, but I forgive you?"

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56338 - 01/02/07 03:26 PM Re: Something curious to me
WalkingSouth Offline
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Posts: 16264
That would be great, but again it is not something I deserve, and certainly I'm not deserving of it if I have no remorse. Forgiveness is a gift. As such it can only be effective if I accept it with genuine remorse and repentance and even then I'm undeserving of it.

All of which brings me back to my original point. Forgiveness is a two-party transaction. So getting back to Vitaliy's question- - -What sort of a person is deserving of forgiveness?- - -No one. It is a mutually shared experience between the one who did wrong and the victim of the wrong, both of whom decide to come together and let the evil of the past be just that and rebuild their relationship.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#56339 - 01/02/07 05:50 PM Re: Something curious to me
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I happen to think the severity of the wrong is very much at issue, personally. But more at issue is the mindset of the "forgiven".

If I was at someone's house and broke a lamp, laughed and said "whoops", and never did anything about it, I would never expect to be forgiven - not because I "don't feel I'm deserving", but because it obviously doesn't matter to me at all. In that case, if such a person came up to me and said "I liked it a lot, but I fixed/replaced it and don't worry, I forgive you," how could I possibly feel good or grateful, or different at all? I don't care. The "forgiveness" makes no difference to me - if they'd never said it, it'd be the same.

If I were truly remorseful over something I did, I'm not sure such empty forgiveness would matter to me, either. Let's say I go on a bender, stumble out to my car, drive around under the influence, hit someone and kill a young child. When I sober up enough to understand what I've done, I'm going to be devastated! So, the parents come up to me and say, "We forgive you." I just killed some little kid! I'm gutter slime - lower than whale crap. Those words aren't going to make me feel OK - they might even make me feel like more of a creep, for destroying what is now obviously such a good, strong, moral family.

The only way I see forgiveness mattering to me, personally, is if I have striven to redeem myself. I'm playing baseball, and I break my neighbor's car windshield, and run off. They're rightly pissed about it, because they don't know I'm the one that did it, and thus can't find me to make me pay, so they pay and have it fixed. It really bothers me, though, so one day I get up the courage, find out how much the window cost, and suddenly show up on their porch. "It was me that broke it - I know I should've said something, but I didn't, and I'm sorry. Here's $300 (or whatever the cost)." So, after recovering from the shock, and seeing that I'm making at least a half-assed, physical attempt to set things right (words are cheap, after all), they say, "It's OK...all's forgiven." And now - NOW - the forgiveness has meaning. I no longer feel bad - in fact, I might feel pretty darn good about myself. I cared enough to do something about it, and it was because of what I did that those people are willing to forgive me.

That's what I mean when I say redemption must be earned. I have judged my perps to be terrible, horrible people - not because of what they innately are, or what they potentially could be; but because of what they've DONE. I judge them by their actions. And if I ever forgive them, it will also be as the result of something they've DONE - not something they merely have the potential to do. Indeed, having the choice to seek redemption and NOT DOING SO only speaks worse for them, not better.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#56340 - 01/02/07 06:07 PM Re: Something curious to me
TJ jeff Offline

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Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3362
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
this is just my very own personal struggle with forgivness... - not saying that I am right in my thinking... - or that others have to think like I do... - we all have to find our own path to finding an inner peace - to live in anger of the past - that anger will eventualy consume us - that much I am 100% sure of...

I wrote letters of confrontation to my mom (who physicaly and mentaly abused me for most of my younger life) and to her youngest brother (who sexualy abused me for over 5 years) - I wrote those letters cause i no longer wanted to live in shame of the past - I was so tired of living a life of 'family secrets' - it was to let them know that I no longer was gonna live that life... - I also let them know that I was trying to forgvive them for what they done - cause the pain of it really was eating me up inside...

when finally they did answer my letters of confrontation - neither of them denied what they done... - mom was actualy very firm of saying that she only done what she felt was right in her mind of bringing me up as best she knew how - uncle said that he really did not ever even think that what he done would effect me so much - neither of them said even 1 word of accepting my forgivness - actualy... - they both basically said in more words or less that they DO NOT want my forgivness - they do not feel that they done anything to me that needs forgiving...

I know I have heard it many times here - and I have read it in books that forgivness is something we do for us - not for them - but... - if one does not wish to be forgiven - it does indeed create a very deep hole within me... - a hole I am still searching for a way to fill...

I very much agree with what some have said here... - to my thinking there is 2 parts to forgivness - there is forgivness from within me (unconditional forgivness) - and there is forgivness that does take some sort of reaction on the other persons part... (conditional forgivness)(which to me is what Visha was talking about)

ok - back to Visha's original question... - to me for a person to show to me that they trully do 'want' our forgivness there has to be ACTION to their words of wanting forgiveness (I asked my mother and uncle to both get counseling - they both refused - they did not take actions to prove they was sorry of what they done)

Have I forgiven??? - not totaly i guess... - but I try...

TJ jeff

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#56341 - 01/02/07 09:40 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
The act of accepting a remorseful apology from your perp is reconciliation, not forgiveness. Reconciliation the act of two people "reconciling" their dispute and agreeing that they will look past their respective wrongs and work toward restoring a positive relationship. And I agree, it is very much a two-way street. I have not reconciled with my perp, and from the way things are going, I don't expect him to approach me about it any time soon.

But reconciliation is not the same thing as forgiveness.

If you look into the history of the word "forgiveness," you find that the root of the word forgive is the Old English word forgiefan "give, grant, allow," also "to give up" from for- "completely" + giefan "give" (see give).

"Completely give."

Forgiefan is the word that the English translators of the Bible used to replace the Latin word perdonare "to give wholeheartedly, to remit."

The act of forgiving, or pardoning, has never included reciprocity or reconciliation. Forgiveness is a solitary act of giving. You give forgiveness to yourself.

And that's what forgiving is. It is to give up, completely and wholeheartedly, the anger and hate that we are holding against another person. It is an individual action. We remit (return) the anger to where it belongs.

I am making it sound easy. But giving up anger and hate is not easy. Giving up our anger doesn't mean justifying our anger or using it to justify our actions. Giving up our anger is an act of love. It means we accept that our perps are fallible human beings, who have unfortunately turned to dark ways in their pain and confusion. This is extremely difficult, and unfortunately it is the only way to truly forgive. I can honestly say that forgiving my perp is one of the most difficult and painful things that I have done, and without the support and advice of some of the guys here at Malesurvivor I never would have been able to do it.

It's difficult for sure, but forgiving is what it is. When you forgive, you don't condone your perp's actions, or give in to weakness, or show cowardice. It is an act of courage, and for someone recovering from abuse, it is the greatest gift that they can give themselves. And it has nothing to do with benefiting your perp as an individual.

Melliferal, you hit the nail right on the head when you said this:

Quote:
So, the parents come up to me and say, "We forgive you." I just killed some little kid! I'm gutter slime - lower than whale crap. Those words aren't going to make me feel OK - they might even make me feel like more of a creep, for destroying what is now obviously such a good, strong, moral family.
Exactly! you would feel guilt, as you so have described so well in this quote. But that is because you are a good person at heart, and your guilt arises because you recognise that the family has had to take the time to heal and rebuild from the damage that you have caused them. In a way, forgiveness is a signal between good people that they have chosen to accept your mistake and get on with their lives. Your guilt at this is your conscience reminding you that you need to deal with your own feelings of guilt and shame for hurting them. But you also know, because they have forgiven you, that the door is open for reconciliation.

And that is the whole point. Forgiveness is not for your perp. More likely than not, if he learns you have forgiven him, he probably won't even care. Forgiveness is for you. That is the whole truth of it. It is a beautiful gift, and learning the ability to forgive is one of the first steps to true freedom. Forgiving your perp brings you peace. It removes the burden of hate and anger and it opens the door to reconciliation; while at the same time it relieves you of the burden of maintaining anger at your perp.

Please understand that I believe this with all my heart because I know that it is true. Forgiveness has brought me peace and freedom. Other people I have spoken to at Malesurvivor who have forgiven say the same thing. I am sharing my experience as my act of gratitude to these people and also for the many gifts of wisdom that I have received from the Malesurvivor community. I am trying so hard to share my experience because I want to help you gain this freedom. It is frustrating because I can see your pain and frustration, but I think the work is worth it. Please have patience with me as I try to find the right words.

I hope and pray that my message will reach some of you. If my writing helps even one of you gain a higher level of peace and freedom in your life, then I have succeeded in passing on this gift. The only thing I would ask is that you pass the gift on to the next guy on the path.

It's for you.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56342 - 01/02/07 10:33 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
How? Can we truly forgive!
We cant, there is no way to do it, but we must accept that the guilt burden is not our own to carry.

The worst thing I found out last year, is that my abuse was not reported, and that sent shudders down my spine, because he threatened to kill me with an knife.

He threatened my family and said he knew where I lived, and had me live in terror each day and night, waiting for his return, but at the police station, they must have seen how hurt I was, and should have spoken further to me.

Reconciliation to me, is to recognise that I am not nor ever was a filthy little brat.
Kids have a thing about adults being right, and even when faced with abuse, they cannot readily see it as abuse, just something to expect of adults.

They have no way of talking their way through it and seeing that it was wholly innapropriate for an adult to treat a child that way, and that brings so many problems in trust within the child.

I even thought as a kid that I will go to hell for what happened, even though it was not my fault,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56343 - 01/02/07 10:52 PM Re: Something curious to me
tom older Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 8
Loc: scotland
Hello

First post. I just think I don't care whether the guy who attacked me is alive or dead in heaven or hell. He is out, out, out of my life though he was only in it four hours but left a long shadow. Forgive him? I don't forgive him , I don't not forgive him. But I know I did not get justice, because he went out of my life and I don't know if he ever even got locked up. And he must have attacked others. He left a lot of suffering over the years, but I don't want to suffer more by getting worked about him. But it's easier for me, I "only" got attacked once.
I don't know what forgiveness means. Is it a feeling? Is it saying I understand you? Is it saying ok you won't go to jail? It would have been better if my attacker went to jail for a long time, but that's to do with justice, and keeping other children safe at least for that time. It didn't happen, not for his attack on me anyhow. To heck with "forgiveness", get justice and you can work out details about "forgiveness" after that.

Tom


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#56344 - 01/03/07 12:51 AM Re: Something curious to me
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I still see the perp from my case walking around locally, although he has kept a low profile since I last confronted him! That was the day he actually called me son (he didn't actually realise it was me at first, because he spoke before looking up at my face).

I intend to ask him why he did it next time I actually get face to face with him. When I do that, I'll tell him that there are other people that were sexually abused, that believe I should actually forgive him! Love to see the look on his face then!

He'll still deny what he did! To tell him that I forgive him would be meaningless (and I wouldn't cheapen myself by saying it - I don't give a toss how he feels)!

What I can forgive is when someone makes a genuine mistake:

Someone accidentaly spills a drink on me - not a problem.
Someone takes the last biscuit / piece of chocolate / bag of crisps from my goody drawer at work - not a problem. If they're hungry, they can have it!
Someone challenges me because someone said something that was misinterpretated - not a problem, but they would get a dose of reality.

What I cannot forgive:
Someone grooms and abuses a kid - they get away with it!
They groom and abuse another kid - they get away with it!
They plan to groom and abuse another kid - they do it, they get away with it.
They stick to this modus operandus for close to 40 years, until someone stands up and says stop!
This was never an accident, abusing what must amount to close on 100 kids, or a slip of character! It was cold blooded, calculated stealing of the innocence and childhood of multiple children. ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVEABLE!

The only paedophiles that stop, are the ones that are stopped! Whether that is because someone like myself stops them, or their own physical deterioration (old age / infirmity) stops them! I will add that some very infirm elderly paedophiles have still been caught out as active paedophiles.

Savages may eventually be civilised to have more humanistic values. Someone tell me what humanistic values paedophiles have. They may have been innocent children once, but they are now adults that deny that innocence to others.

I would presume that the majority of us here were actually abused as children. The majority of us have not inflicted that abuse on other children. There are exceptions I know, but adults that systematically abuse are the ones that I am talking about above! Someone that has made a career out of abusing children should be despatched from this planet ASAP - sod forgiving them! I repeat they did not accidentaly do something - they repeatedly abused their powers over innocents! Bring back the noose!

PS - I'm not arguing, merely stating an extremely valid viewpoint.

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#56345 - 01/03/07 01:20 AM Re: Something curious to me
FLRich Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 1404
Quote:
It's for you.
Nobby,

I get it now.

One of the dearest friends I have on this site forgave his perp about a year ago. Walked right up to him and told him that he forgave him for what he did to him. This friend tried to tell me then, that he was doing it for himself, not for his perp.

It made sense to me that anything it takes to make us feel good about ourselves is a good thing. If forgiving takes away some of the hate and bad feelings, I am all for it.

What you are saying makes sense, in that my friend still to this day has nightmares about this creep, and he hates him from time to time for the things he did to him, but it has to be a good feeling to know that you have done all you could possibly do to overcome the situation(s).

I am not in that place yet. I am the absolute king of denial. I don't think I ever want to face my perps again, ever, much less tell them I forgive them. Am I wrong for this? I think not. Forgiveness would not make me feel better.

However, if it makes anyone feel better, then forgive! After what these perps have taken from us, and the issues they have given us, anything that makes us have the upper hand is a good thing.

"It's for you."


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#56346 - 01/03/07 04:42 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
one mans truth is another mans madness. i asked a question also somewhere way back there in this thread ,dont think its been answered . why should i give the same compassion ,or respect to someone that has done the unspeakable? thats what i just cant swallow! it makes the hell each of us lived through seem insignifacant, somehow lessens the severity of what was done .maybe after 25 years it kinda wears off how bad it really was ,idont know . i know i refuse to give any perp the respect or compassion that i give every man on this site .you see knobby for some reason i wont forgive him because of you out of respect for what you lived through!i will not diminish what was done to you or me by forgiving. also it is said here that forgivness is for me not my perp ,then it follows that for it to help me i would have to want it ,i dont , .

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#56347 - 01/04/07 12:02 AM Re: Something curious to me
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I have a very old dictionary from 1938 - it's my Mother's from when she attended Grammar School! It's the type of dictionary that would be welcomed in a court of law!

Forgive (also gives the old Anglo Saxon word, forgifan): To give up resentment or claim to requital on account of: to remit as an offence, debt, fine, or penalty; to pardon; to cease to feel resentment against; to free from a claim or the consequences of an injurious act or crime.

Forgiveness: the act of forgiving or willingness to forgive.

Forgiving: disposed to forgive; inclined to overlook offences; mild; merciful; compassionate.

In the definition of forgive, we have the word pardon!

Pardon: strictly to remit the punishment or retaliation we are entitled to inflict; forgive implies that the party who has suffered injury entirely overlooks the offence, and cherishes no ill feeling whatever against the offender.

So what are my opinions on those definitions! Note that to make it as far as forgiveness; you first have to understand what it is to forgive! I cannot remit JF from the multiple offences that he committed (and would still be committing) against myself and others! I certainly do not pardon him, because that means I am totally overlooking the offence (just like it never happened) and denying the impact that he had on my life and others.

Forgiveness - well looking at that definition, it is something that I reserve for people in my life that do something out of character. Something that may cause me mild offence, but is not designed to seriously hurt me. Something that is not wilful!

Forgiving - although there are things that are unforgivable, I am compassionate - if you could ask the people that really know me, they would tell you that I am probably the most compassionate person they know. I can overlook offences, but note the definition does not include 'extremely serious offences'.

Dig out your dictionaries, put your definitions here.

I can assure you that whatever definitions anyone comes up with, I will never entirely overlook the offences that JF committed. That to me is like denying that they ever happened! That is why so many of us stay silent! That is why so many of them get away with it!

It happened!

What I do find amazing, is that I really just come here now to support others. JF is quite insignificant in my daily life! Even though I have to confront him one more time, he is really not in my thoughts that much now, until I find out here, that what he did should be overlooked (see definitions of pardon/forgiveness above).

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#56348 - 01/04/07 01:45 AM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
edited

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56349 - 01/04/07 02:24 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
trigger warning !!!you still didnt answer my question ,but thats ok . follies? all the quotes you presented here are for common indescretions ,things like lying or cheating or stealing. i do not consider anyone who wont forgive weak,in fact to me yes i'll say it ,but with no disrespect ,i consider forgiving to be a sign of giving up ,giving in ,weakness. you didnt heal anything you just gave up on ever getting justice ,there is a difference between justice and revenge. ok i'll just put it out here ,since you wont accept my respect for what happened to you as a valid reason ,then whats the opposite ,should i say well what happened to you probably wasnt so bad ,hell why dont you just get over it and forgive him ,maybe you even liked it .is that the real message behind what your saying ?cause thats what it sounds like to me.at age 11 i learned to fight for my life it is an ability that served me well i wont go back to being submissive . you want the real definition of forgivness?forgiving is saying what happened is ok . its not ,nothing will ever make it ok , to the common man forgiving means saying its ok.this is not like saying well you took my lunch money but i forgive you ,this ruined my life ,it ended my life as it should have been , it sent me into a world where forgiving can get you stabbed in the back , if you get beat up by an older kid ,but out of the kindness of your heart you tell him i forgive you ,you will feel so good ,till they turn out the lights and he sodomizes you again . my perp didnt just beat me and molest me ,he made it possible for those things to become normal in my life . also i ask this if we should forgive everything then why do we have courts? prisons? laws ,if you take all those away who do you think will survive ,those who forgive ,or those who take advantage of the forgivers? you wouldnt last 5 days in the e h close detention center dude.again visha i apologize for your post being kinda overrun , please tell me and i dont even want to say this but i think it needs to be said ,tell me how i can forgive being held down while a 250 pound adult forces something that feels like a red hot baseball bat into my 11 year old body ,should i forgive the torn and ripped skin on my lips and at the corners of my mouth from having something so big it tore my mouth apart forced into me? im sorry to talk like this but i think we need to see what happened for what it is ,follies?!

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#56350 - 01/04/07 04:39 AM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by shadowkid:
should i say well what happened to you probably wasnt so bad ,hell why dont you just get over it and forgive him ,maybe you even liked it .is that the real message behind what your saying ?
I'm sorry? Are you saying that I liked my rape?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56351 - 01/04/07 06:24 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
heh out of all that ? this is the only thing that got some attention?no i am not saying you liked it !remember im the one who wont forgive out of respect for what you been through? maybe i can minimze what happend to me but not what happened to all the other guys here. your the one saying it is forgivable not me! there are good reasons to forgive all im saying is there are also good reasons not to .i can type for an hour ,but only one sentence is addressed . read all of the post ,or just blow me off because i dont agree with you. its not politicly correct to be against something like forgiving ,but it is honest. the point of that sentence was that it seems that you want me to say it about my experience ,and just forgive . and if i had said that to you ,im sure you could forgive me ,right? i really shouldnt worry what i do because good strong people will forgive everytime . its the weak bitter screwed up ones who hold a grudge. still hav'nt answered my question either. if you and your perp were drowning,and i could only save one of you ,should i give him the same consideration that i would give you, an honest good person ? should i save him because maybe if i do he will change? or should i save you cause he's a worthless piece of crap who would probably push me into the water if i got him out?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#56352 - 01/04/07 10:08 AM Re: Something curious to me
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
To try to get this thread back on track from threadjacking by personal disputes and using it for a pulpit to push 'what you should do' to each other....I'll just answer the question.

I was abused, in various ways, by both parents and my sport coach. The worst of the sexual abuse was by the coach, and in irony, he is the only one who has shown any remorse so far. He actually contacted me last year, and another person he abused, apologizing, explaining his behavior, and not even asking forgiveness, because as he said 'I do not deserve it, and to say I am sorry to you, it is not going to change or fix the past'. Yet, he did say he was sorry. I can not say that I have forgiven him. But I will say, since he did that, initially I was hypertriggered and suspicious, but as time has gone on, I have had less thought of him in general, less bad dreams about him, less panic about anything he has done.

Now my mother, I am starting to begin to realize she will never think she did anything wrong. Why I still seek a natural mother-child relationship with her, and why I still want her acceptance and approval, I don't know. She has remained inappropriate and abusive to me even now as an adult. What would it take to forgive her? Actually, for me, with her, probably very little.

I still feel embarrassment, maybe not actual shame, by her treatment of me, past and even present. That, it is not fair, because SHE is the one who I think should be embarrassed, for having such thoughts on her son, and even more, acting on them. But the one time I have tried even to really address the issue with her, she refused to hear how I feel about it, and refused to admit what she has done, it is wrong.

If she were to tell to me 'I'm sorry', and accept that sexually touching your son is not proper for a mother, and some of the other more verbal/emotionally abusive things she has done, just apologize to me, I think I would forgive her very quick and easy. She is my MOTHER, and stupid as it may be, I do still love her. She made many sacrifices for me as I was growing up, and worked very hard to provide for me. There are many positive things she has done and still does. But we need to get through it together, the abuse issues, for me to put it behind me. If she was to apologize to me, accept responsibility, and show me she MEANS it by backing up her words with her behaviors, I think I would have very little trouble forgiving her.

My father was just a beast. Very physically (and somewhat sexually as well) abusive, to the point that my younger brother died as a child because of his abuse. To me, that is unforgiveable. Now I know someone else may post about how 'Have you never hurt anyone, how dare you make that judgement' and all that, and that's fine and all dandy. That is YOUR opinion, not mine, and it is no more valid an argument than mine is. Yes, I have hurt people. I have hurt some of the people I love most in the world, hurt their feelings, have had issues with trust, even recently. And I accept responsibility that I have done that, and I apologize and try to back it up with my changed and improved behaviors. Yes, I have hurt people. But I have never raped, beaten, killed anyone. There are degrees to negative behaviors, just same as there are degrees of crime from misdemeanors to felonies. If I choose to think something is not forgiveable to me, that is not something that should be attacked by someone of another opinion. I am a good man, and not forgiving a past wrong does not make me anything less. Period.

So what could my father do or say to make me change my mind? I don't know. I can not fathom anything that would take away the vacancy in my life of my brother. And I can't imagine what could soften me toward him from the beatings I witnessed to both my mother and grandmother, as well as what he's done to me. Perhaps there are words, and actions, that could redeem him to me. I just can not imagine what they would be. And as I have not seen the man since I was 10 years old, I think it is not so much of an issue to me.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#56353 - 01/04/07 02:45 PM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
sorry ,about the threadjacking.

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#56354 - 01/04/07 03:28 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
For every dissenting opinion I see in this thread, I have two PMs from other Malesurvivor members who want to learn how to forgive. I feel no need to continue arguing here. My opinions on the issue are clear, and my door is open to anyone who is on the same journey to forgiveness.

And to the brothers who have disagreed with me, I hope you will agree that this has been one of the most productive discussions on Malesurvivor. Although I don't think any of us have changed our convictions (which is good, you should be slow to change your convictions) I think we are all stronger having had the discussion.

And Adam, I don't need to forgive you because there is nothing to forgive. I know how much pain you are in. Believe me. I have never told my story on this site but it is not that much different from yours. I got beaten up and all the rest. Except that in my case, my perp is in his late sixties and has probably been raping children for decades.

And last year I stopped him dead in his tracks. Just like you stopped your perp. And I am doing work now that will stop even more perps, and save more children from the horror of sexual abuse.

You see, just because I have forgiven, I have not forgotten what was done to me and the dozens, if not hundreds, of other children that my perp has molested. Perps are criminals and they must be stopped from harming people. However, where you and I differ is that I feel no anger over this. I just want the suffering to stop for all of us, including the perps. And the only way to put a final end to suffering is to begin the process of forgiveness and rebuilding.

I'm done.

Nobby

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#56355 - 01/04/07 09:18 PM Re: Something curious to me
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
If you want to forgive a perp, take them to court in the UK and they will do it for you, that way you don't have to waste the energy.

Remember in the summing up, when I took JF to court, I found out that I suffered the indiscretions of a gentleman who now happens to be elderly. I wasn't groomed and abused like others before and after me!

The best way to prevent such suffering in the future, is to send a very stern message to all paedophiles that if they abuse children, they will go to jail for a very long time! The judiciary need to get it right and look after the victims instead of being so bloody politically correct!

So no I do not intend to show any forgiveness to a paedophile who must have around 100 direct victims. Then there are all of the friends and family of those victims who will have suffered some of the fall out from their actions. There are many people that have been hurt when I have told them what happened to me. There are people that are still hurting because they didn't know it was happening at the time and couldn't stop it. There are people still hurting because they sometimes don't know how best to deal with me (although thankfully this is much less of a problem since I went to court).

Adults abusing children - jail them and forget about them.

They don't admit what they do! That means they cannot ask to be forgiven!

Best wishes ...Rik

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#56356 - 01/04/07 09:41 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think the forgiveness thing is unique to every individual.
I chose to forgive to stop hurting myself, but now I find it hard to forgive my brother.

Younger guys with this still fresh in their minds are more intent of seeking some sort of revenge.
Do I blame them? NO!

You only get one childhood, and one life, and for someone to take it away for their own greed is pretty unforgivable, but I chose to forgive because I will never know who was responsible and the need to look after my own mind.

Rik talks of an easy way out for his perp, but his neighbours will know of him, and I guess he is mocked and scared to leave home too much.

There is no such thing as justice in this country when the courts are like just another factory churning things through without proper trials, and plea bargaining.

It costs money you know, a scarce commodity in this country,

ste

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#56357 - 01/05/07 01:26 PM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i agree with nobby we have been able to get a lot of our stuff out on this thread ,maybe some of the anger i feel has been let go here ,but its directed at what happened to me not at the people here who i know only want to help me . we got to hear both sides of the forgiving issue,and thats good i think . if nothing else we are talking and listening to each others opinions and thats good also. thanks to everyone who voiced their opinion ,maybe someday what was said will help me to at least consider forgivness. adam

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when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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