Newest Members
JimHouston42, GKB, MorganWut, myrlin, AaronS
12466 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
dm13 (39), Jaso (34), liliana888 (43), Raju (32)
Who's Online
6 registered (AL-S, wearytraveler, pete1973, Obi, 2 invisible), 18 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12466 Members
74 Forums
64021 Topics
446793 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#56343 - 01/02/07 10:52 PM Re: Something curious to me
tom older Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 8
Loc: scotland
Hello

First post. I just think I don't care whether the guy who attacked me is alive or dead in heaven or hell. He is out, out, out of my life though he was only in it four hours but left a long shadow. Forgive him? I don't forgive him , I don't not forgive him. But I know I did not get justice, because he went out of my life and I don't know if he ever even got locked up. And he must have attacked others. He left a lot of suffering over the years, but I don't want to suffer more by getting worked about him. But it's easier for me, I "only" got attacked once.
I don't know what forgiveness means. Is it a feeling? Is it saying I understand you? Is it saying ok you won't go to jail? It would have been better if my attacker went to jail for a long time, but that's to do with justice, and keeping other children safe at least for that time. It didn't happen, not for his attack on me anyhow. To heck with "forgiveness", get justice and you can work out details about "forgiveness" after that.

Tom


Top
#56344 - 01/03/07 12:51 AM Re: Something curious to me
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I still see the perp from my case walking around locally, although he has kept a low profile since I last confronted him! That was the day he actually called me son (he didn't actually realise it was me at first, because he spoke before looking up at my face).

I intend to ask him why he did it next time I actually get face to face with him. When I do that, I'll tell him that there are other people that were sexually abused, that believe I should actually forgive him! Love to see the look on his face then!

He'll still deny what he did! To tell him that I forgive him would be meaningless (and I wouldn't cheapen myself by saying it - I don't give a toss how he feels)!

What I can forgive is when someone makes a genuine mistake:

Someone accidentaly spills a drink on me - not a problem.
Someone takes the last biscuit / piece of chocolate / bag of crisps from my goody drawer at work - not a problem. If they're hungry, they can have it!
Someone challenges me because someone said something that was misinterpretated - not a problem, but they would get a dose of reality.

What I cannot forgive:
Someone grooms and abuses a kid - they get away with it!
They groom and abuse another kid - they get away with it!
They plan to groom and abuse another kid - they do it, they get away with it.
They stick to this modus operandus for close to 40 years, until someone stands up and says stop!
This was never an accident, abusing what must amount to close on 100 kids, or a slip of character! It was cold blooded, calculated stealing of the innocence and childhood of multiple children. ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVEABLE!

The only paedophiles that stop, are the ones that are stopped! Whether that is because someone like myself stops them, or their own physical deterioration (old age / infirmity) stops them! I will add that some very infirm elderly paedophiles have still been caught out as active paedophiles.

Savages may eventually be civilised to have more humanistic values. Someone tell me what humanistic values paedophiles have. They may have been innocent children once, but they are now adults that deny that innocence to others.

I would presume that the majority of us here were actually abused as children. The majority of us have not inflicted that abuse on other children. There are exceptions I know, but adults that systematically abuse are the ones that I am talking about above! Someone that has made a career out of abusing children should be despatched from this planet ASAP - sod forgiving them! I repeat they did not accidentaly do something - they repeatedly abused their powers over innocents! Bring back the noose!

PS - I'm not arguing, merely stating an extremely valid viewpoint.

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

Top
#56345 - 01/03/07 01:20 AM Re: Something curious to me
FLRich Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 1404
Quote:
It's for you.
Nobby,

I get it now.

One of the dearest friends I have on this site forgave his perp about a year ago. Walked right up to him and told him that he forgave him for what he did to him. This friend tried to tell me then, that he was doing it for himself, not for his perp.

It made sense to me that anything it takes to make us feel good about ourselves is a good thing. If forgiving takes away some of the hate and bad feelings, I am all for it.

What you are saying makes sense, in that my friend still to this day has nightmares about this creep, and he hates him from time to time for the things he did to him, but it has to be a good feeling to know that you have done all you could possibly do to overcome the situation(s).

I am not in that place yet. I am the absolute king of denial. I don't think I ever want to face my perps again, ever, much less tell them I forgive them. Am I wrong for this? I think not. Forgiveness would not make me feel better.

However, if it makes anyone feel better, then forgive! After what these perps have taken from us, and the issues they have given us, anything that makes us have the upper hand is a good thing.

"It's for you."


Top
#56346 - 01/03/07 04:42 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
one mans truth is another mans madness. i asked a question also somewhere way back there in this thread ,dont think its been answered . why should i give the same compassion ,or respect to someone that has done the unspeakable? thats what i just cant swallow! it makes the hell each of us lived through seem insignifacant, somehow lessens the severity of what was done .maybe after 25 years it kinda wears off how bad it really was ,idont know . i know i refuse to give any perp the respect or compassion that i give every man on this site .you see knobby for some reason i wont forgive him because of you out of respect for what you lived through!i will not diminish what was done to you or me by forgiving. also it is said here that forgivness is for me not my perp ,then it follows that for it to help me i would have to want it ,i dont , .

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#56347 - 01/04/07 12:02 AM Re: Something curious to me
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I have a very old dictionary from 1938 - it's my Mother's from when she attended Grammar School! It's the type of dictionary that would be welcomed in a court of law!

Forgive (also gives the old Anglo Saxon word, forgifan): To give up resentment or claim to requital on account of: to remit as an offence, debt, fine, or penalty; to pardon; to cease to feel resentment against; to free from a claim or the consequences of an injurious act or crime.

Forgiveness: the act of forgiving or willingness to forgive.

Forgiving: disposed to forgive; inclined to overlook offences; mild; merciful; compassionate.

In the definition of forgive, we have the word pardon!

Pardon: strictly to remit the punishment or retaliation we are entitled to inflict; forgive implies that the party who has suffered injury entirely overlooks the offence, and cherishes no ill feeling whatever against the offender.

So what are my opinions on those definitions! Note that to make it as far as forgiveness; you first have to understand what it is to forgive! I cannot remit JF from the multiple offences that he committed (and would still be committing) against myself and others! I certainly do not pardon him, because that means I am totally overlooking the offence (just like it never happened) and denying the impact that he had on my life and others.

Forgiveness - well looking at that definition, it is something that I reserve for people in my life that do something out of character. Something that may cause me mild offence, but is not designed to seriously hurt me. Something that is not wilful!

Forgiving - although there are things that are unforgivable, I am compassionate - if you could ask the people that really know me, they would tell you that I am probably the most compassionate person they know. I can overlook offences, but note the definition does not include 'extremely serious offences'.

Dig out your dictionaries, put your definitions here.

I can assure you that whatever definitions anyone comes up with, I will never entirely overlook the offences that JF committed. That to me is like denying that they ever happened! That is why so many of us stay silent! That is why so many of them get away with it!

It happened!

What I do find amazing, is that I really just come here now to support others. JF is quite insignificant in my daily life! Even though I have to confront him one more time, he is really not in my thoughts that much now, until I find out here, that what he did should be overlooked (see definitions of pardon/forgiveness above).

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

Top
#56348 - 01/04/07 01:45 AM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
edited

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

Top
#56349 - 01/04/07 02:24 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
trigger warning !!!you still didnt answer my question ,but thats ok . follies? all the quotes you presented here are for common indescretions ,things like lying or cheating or stealing. i do not consider anyone who wont forgive weak,in fact to me yes i'll say it ,but with no disrespect ,i consider forgiving to be a sign of giving up ,giving in ,weakness. you didnt heal anything you just gave up on ever getting justice ,there is a difference between justice and revenge. ok i'll just put it out here ,since you wont accept my respect for what happened to you as a valid reason ,then whats the opposite ,should i say well what happened to you probably wasnt so bad ,hell why dont you just get over it and forgive him ,maybe you even liked it .is that the real message behind what your saying ?cause thats what it sounds like to me.at age 11 i learned to fight for my life it is an ability that served me well i wont go back to being submissive . you want the real definition of forgivness?forgiving is saying what happened is ok . its not ,nothing will ever make it ok , to the common man forgiving means saying its ok.this is not like saying well you took my lunch money but i forgive you ,this ruined my life ,it ended my life as it should have been , it sent me into a world where forgiving can get you stabbed in the back , if you get beat up by an older kid ,but out of the kindness of your heart you tell him i forgive you ,you will feel so good ,till they turn out the lights and he sodomizes you again . my perp didnt just beat me and molest me ,he made it possible for those things to become normal in my life . also i ask this if we should forgive everything then why do we have courts? prisons? laws ,if you take all those away who do you think will survive ,those who forgive ,or those who take advantage of the forgivers? you wouldnt last 5 days in the e h close detention center dude.again visha i apologize for your post being kinda overrun , please tell me and i dont even want to say this but i think it needs to be said ,tell me how i can forgive being held down while a 250 pound adult forces something that feels like a red hot baseball bat into my 11 year old body ,should i forgive the torn and ripped skin on my lips and at the corners of my mouth from having something so big it tore my mouth apart forced into me? im sorry to talk like this but i think we need to see what happened for what it is ,follies?!

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#56350 - 01/04/07 04:39 AM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by shadowkid:
should i say well what happened to you probably wasnt so bad ,hell why dont you just get over it and forgive him ,maybe you even liked it .is that the real message behind what your saying ?
I'm sorry? Are you saying that I liked my rape?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

Top
#56351 - 01/04/07 06:24 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
heh out of all that ? this is the only thing that got some attention?no i am not saying you liked it !remember im the one who wont forgive out of respect for what you been through? maybe i can minimze what happend to me but not what happened to all the other guys here. your the one saying it is forgivable not me! there are good reasons to forgive all im saying is there are also good reasons not to .i can type for an hour ,but only one sentence is addressed . read all of the post ,or just blow me off because i dont agree with you. its not politicly correct to be against something like forgiving ,but it is honest. the point of that sentence was that it seems that you want me to say it about my experience ,and just forgive . and if i had said that to you ,im sure you could forgive me ,right? i really shouldnt worry what i do because good strong people will forgive everytime . its the weak bitter screwed up ones who hold a grudge. still hav'nt answered my question either. if you and your perp were drowning,and i could only save one of you ,should i give him the same consideration that i would give you, an honest good person ? should i save him because maybe if i do he will change? or should i save you cause he's a worthless piece of crap who would probably push me into the water if i got him out?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#56352 - 01/04/07 10:08 AM Re: Something curious to me
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
To try to get this thread back on track from threadjacking by personal disputes and using it for a pulpit to push 'what you should do' to each other....I'll just answer the question.

I was abused, in various ways, by both parents and my sport coach. The worst of the sexual abuse was by the coach, and in irony, he is the only one who has shown any remorse so far. He actually contacted me last year, and another person he abused, apologizing, explaining his behavior, and not even asking forgiveness, because as he said 'I do not deserve it, and to say I am sorry to you, it is not going to change or fix the past'. Yet, he did say he was sorry. I can not say that I have forgiven him. But I will say, since he did that, initially I was hypertriggered and suspicious, but as time has gone on, I have had less thought of him in general, less bad dreams about him, less panic about anything he has done.

Now my mother, I am starting to begin to realize she will never think she did anything wrong. Why I still seek a natural mother-child relationship with her, and why I still want her acceptance and approval, I don't know. She has remained inappropriate and abusive to me even now as an adult. What would it take to forgive her? Actually, for me, with her, probably very little.

I still feel embarrassment, maybe not actual shame, by her treatment of me, past and even present. That, it is not fair, because SHE is the one who I think should be embarrassed, for having such thoughts on her son, and even more, acting on them. But the one time I have tried even to really address the issue with her, she refused to hear how I feel about it, and refused to admit what she has done, it is wrong.

If she were to tell to me 'I'm sorry', and accept that sexually touching your son is not proper for a mother, and some of the other more verbal/emotionally abusive things she has done, just apologize to me, I think I would forgive her very quick and easy. She is my MOTHER, and stupid as it may be, I do still love her. She made many sacrifices for me as I was growing up, and worked very hard to provide for me. There are many positive things she has done and still does. But we need to get through it together, the abuse issues, for me to put it behind me. If she was to apologize to me, accept responsibility, and show me she MEANS it by backing up her words with her behaviors, I think I would have very little trouble forgiving her.

My father was just a beast. Very physically (and somewhat sexually as well) abusive, to the point that my younger brother died as a child because of his abuse. To me, that is unforgiveable. Now I know someone else may post about how 'Have you never hurt anyone, how dare you make that judgement' and all that, and that's fine and all dandy. That is YOUR opinion, not mine, and it is no more valid an argument than mine is. Yes, I have hurt people. I have hurt some of the people I love most in the world, hurt their feelings, have had issues with trust, even recently. And I accept responsibility that I have done that, and I apologize and try to back it up with my changed and improved behaviors. Yes, I have hurt people. But I have never raped, beaten, killed anyone. There are degrees to negative behaviors, just same as there are degrees of crime from misdemeanors to felonies. If I choose to think something is not forgiveable to me, that is not something that should be attacked by someone of another opinion. I am a good man, and not forgiving a past wrong does not make me anything less. Period.

So what could my father do or say to make me change my mind? I don't know. I can not fathom anything that would take away the vacancy in my life of my brother. And I can't imagine what could soften me toward him from the beatings I witnessed to both my mother and grandmother, as well as what he's done to me. Perhaps there are words, and actions, that could redeem him to me. I just can not imagine what they would be. And as I have not seen the man since I was 10 years old, I think it is not so much of an issue to me.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.