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#56333 - 01/02/07 12:19 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
ok nobby if ten thousand people masturbate to a porn movie and the star is me how fucking far down on my list of those to forgive is my perp? are each of those people going to apologize to me and ask my forgivness? believe it or not i do not watch porn or masturbate because of the things that bastard did to me . also unless your talking about childporn ,the people who do it are not forced to do it they do it for money ,they want you to watch it and buy it . its a really weird example of doing something wrong i think ,i thought you meant something like lying to somebody or something like that. i think you have it backwards as to who was wronged here .we were not the perp! if your guilty for watching the porn what about the asshole that made it ,porn makes me physicaly sick because i have been in front of the camera,its so hot there ,lights so bright, how long will i wait for everyone who watched it to ask my forgivness? it seems your dealing with so many unknown factors ,for me its black and white ,he hurt me ,i hate him ,and im perfectly happy that way. your dealing in what if;s im dealing in what happened.personaly i cant see forgiving as a good thing or a bad one its something people either do or dont do. kinda like masturbating to a porn movie. if i follow that line of reasoning then id starve cause id be responsible for every anmimal that ever died to feed a human ,if you take it far enough hell you'll be to blame for everything .its like saying well i was a child once so im responsible for child porn just because i was used to make it ,and i owe every person who watched it an apology?! how far do you want to carry your forgiving? once again i think this shows how easy it is to stray from the original question that v asked ,what can perps do to make us want to forgive them ? my answer is nothing . but i wont need to make that choice cause my perp thinks he did nothing wrong. adam

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its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#56334 - 01/02/07 04:55 AM Re: Something curious to me
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Again Nobby, it's not the premise of your argument I disagree with; it's your notion that everyone has done something so horrible. I've done a lot of sub-par things in my life - I've stolen a candy bar once, for instance. I've said things to people I didn't really mean. I've given people who asked me things answers which are sometimes the exact opposite of what I really think or feel. None of these equates to the abuse - it's not even in the same ballpark.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#56335 - 01/02/07 06:07 AM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
We've been over the same ground several times here, but nobody has answered my question. I don't care about the severity of the wrong. That is entirely subjective, and the truth is that anyone who you wrong is not going to care how badly hurt you were. They are going to be hurt and angry at you.

So I ask again, would you expect someone that you had wronged to forgive you?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56336 - 01/02/07 06:44 AM Re: Something curious to me
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Since you asked, no. He/she after all is the one who was wronged.

It is not mine to expect.

It is mine to attempt to make right, but that is all I can do. I am only able to take care of the stuff in my yard. Noting I can do about what he/she will do with the stuff in his/hers.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#56337 - 01/02/07 03:05 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Now we're getting somewhere. Ok, now how would it make you feel if the person approached you and said, "Look, you really hurt me back then, but I forgive you?"

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56338 - 01/02/07 03:26 PM Re: Something curious to me
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
That would be great, but again it is not something I deserve, and certainly I'm not deserving of it if I have no remorse. Forgiveness is a gift. As such it can only be effective if I accept it with genuine remorse and repentance and even then I'm undeserving of it.

All of which brings me back to my original point. Forgiveness is a two-party transaction. So getting back to Vitaliy's question- - -What sort of a person is deserving of forgiveness?- - -No one. It is a mutually shared experience between the one who did wrong and the victim of the wrong, both of whom decide to come together and let the evil of the past be just that and rebuild their relationship.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#56339 - 01/02/07 05:50 PM Re: Something curious to me
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I happen to think the severity of the wrong is very much at issue, personally. But more at issue is the mindset of the "forgiven".

If I was at someone's house and broke a lamp, laughed and said "whoops", and never did anything about it, I would never expect to be forgiven - not because I "don't feel I'm deserving", but because it obviously doesn't matter to me at all. In that case, if such a person came up to me and said "I liked it a lot, but I fixed/replaced it and don't worry, I forgive you," how could I possibly feel good or grateful, or different at all? I don't care. The "forgiveness" makes no difference to me - if they'd never said it, it'd be the same.

If I were truly remorseful over something I did, I'm not sure such empty forgiveness would matter to me, either. Let's say I go on a bender, stumble out to my car, drive around under the influence, hit someone and kill a young child. When I sober up enough to understand what I've done, I'm going to be devastated! So, the parents come up to me and say, "We forgive you." I just killed some little kid! I'm gutter slime - lower than whale crap. Those words aren't going to make me feel OK - they might even make me feel like more of a creep, for destroying what is now obviously such a good, strong, moral family.

The only way I see forgiveness mattering to me, personally, is if I have striven to redeem myself. I'm playing baseball, and I break my neighbor's car windshield, and run off. They're rightly pissed about it, because they don't know I'm the one that did it, and thus can't find me to make me pay, so they pay and have it fixed. It really bothers me, though, so one day I get up the courage, find out how much the window cost, and suddenly show up on their porch. "It was me that broke it - I know I should've said something, but I didn't, and I'm sorry. Here's $300 (or whatever the cost)." So, after recovering from the shock, and seeing that I'm making at least a half-assed, physical attempt to set things right (words are cheap, after all), they say, "It's OK...all's forgiven." And now - NOW - the forgiveness has meaning. I no longer feel bad - in fact, I might feel pretty darn good about myself. I cared enough to do something about it, and it was because of what I did that those people are willing to forgive me.

That's what I mean when I say redemption must be earned. I have judged my perps to be terrible, horrible people - not because of what they innately are, or what they potentially could be; but because of what they've DONE. I judge them by their actions. And if I ever forgive them, it will also be as the result of something they've DONE - not something they merely have the potential to do. Indeed, having the choice to seek redemption and NOT DOING SO only speaks worse for them, not better.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#56340 - 01/02/07 06:07 PM Re: Something curious to me
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3365
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
this is just my very own personal struggle with forgivness... - not saying that I am right in my thinking... - or that others have to think like I do... - we all have to find our own path to finding an inner peace - to live in anger of the past - that anger will eventualy consume us - that much I am 100% sure of...

I wrote letters of confrontation to my mom (who physicaly and mentaly abused me for most of my younger life) and to her youngest brother (who sexualy abused me for over 5 years) - I wrote those letters cause i no longer wanted to live in shame of the past - I was so tired of living a life of 'family secrets' - it was to let them know that I no longer was gonna live that life... - I also let them know that I was trying to forgvive them for what they done - cause the pain of it really was eating me up inside...

when finally they did answer my letters of confrontation - neither of them denied what they done... - mom was actualy very firm of saying that she only done what she felt was right in her mind of bringing me up as best she knew how - uncle said that he really did not ever even think that what he done would effect me so much - neither of them said even 1 word of accepting my forgivness - actualy... - they both basically said in more words or less that they DO NOT want my forgivness - they do not feel that they done anything to me that needs forgiving...

I know I have heard it many times here - and I have read it in books that forgivness is something we do for us - not for them - but... - if one does not wish to be forgiven - it does indeed create a very deep hole within me... - a hole I am still searching for a way to fill...

I very much agree with what some have said here... - to my thinking there is 2 parts to forgivness - there is forgivness from within me (unconditional forgivness) - and there is forgivness that does take some sort of reaction on the other persons part... (conditional forgivness)(which to me is what Visha was talking about)

ok - back to Visha's original question... - to me for a person to show to me that they trully do 'want' our forgivness there has to be ACTION to their words of wanting forgiveness (I asked my mother and uncle to both get counseling - they both refused - they did not take actions to prove they was sorry of what they done)

Have I forgiven??? - not totaly i guess... - but I try...

TJ jeff

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#56341 - 01/02/07 09:40 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
The act of accepting a remorseful apology from your perp is reconciliation, not forgiveness. Reconciliation the act of two people "reconciling" their dispute and agreeing that they will look past their respective wrongs and work toward restoring a positive relationship. And I agree, it is very much a two-way street. I have not reconciled with my perp, and from the way things are going, I don't expect him to approach me about it any time soon.

But reconciliation is not the same thing as forgiveness.

If you look into the history of the word "forgiveness," you find that the root of the word forgive is the Old English word forgiefan "give, grant, allow," also "to give up" from for- "completely" + giefan "give" (see give).

"Completely give."

Forgiefan is the word that the English translators of the Bible used to replace the Latin word perdonare "to give wholeheartedly, to remit."

The act of forgiving, or pardoning, has never included reciprocity or reconciliation. Forgiveness is a solitary act of giving. You give forgiveness to yourself.

And that's what forgiving is. It is to give up, completely and wholeheartedly, the anger and hate that we are holding against another person. It is an individual action. We remit (return) the anger to where it belongs.

I am making it sound easy. But giving up anger and hate is not easy. Giving up our anger doesn't mean justifying our anger or using it to justify our actions. Giving up our anger is an act of love. It means we accept that our perps are fallible human beings, who have unfortunately turned to dark ways in their pain and confusion. This is extremely difficult, and unfortunately it is the only way to truly forgive. I can honestly say that forgiving my perp is one of the most difficult and painful things that I have done, and without the support and advice of some of the guys here at Malesurvivor I never would have been able to do it.

It's difficult for sure, but forgiving is what it is. When you forgive, you don't condone your perp's actions, or give in to weakness, or show cowardice. It is an act of courage, and for someone recovering from abuse, it is the greatest gift that they can give themselves. And it has nothing to do with benefiting your perp as an individual.

Melliferal, you hit the nail right on the head when you said this:

Quote:
So, the parents come up to me and say, "We forgive you." I just killed some little kid! I'm gutter slime - lower than whale crap. Those words aren't going to make me feel OK - they might even make me feel like more of a creep, for destroying what is now obviously such a good, strong, moral family.
Exactly! you would feel guilt, as you so have described so well in this quote. But that is because you are a good person at heart, and your guilt arises because you recognise that the family has had to take the time to heal and rebuild from the damage that you have caused them. In a way, forgiveness is a signal between good people that they have chosen to accept your mistake and get on with their lives. Your guilt at this is your conscience reminding you that you need to deal with your own feelings of guilt and shame for hurting them. But you also know, because they have forgiven you, that the door is open for reconciliation.

And that is the whole point. Forgiveness is not for your perp. More likely than not, if he learns you have forgiven him, he probably won't even care. Forgiveness is for you. That is the whole truth of it. It is a beautiful gift, and learning the ability to forgive is one of the first steps to true freedom. Forgiving your perp brings you peace. It removes the burden of hate and anger and it opens the door to reconciliation; while at the same time it relieves you of the burden of maintaining anger at your perp.

Please understand that I believe this with all my heart because I know that it is true. Forgiveness has brought me peace and freedom. Other people I have spoken to at Malesurvivor who have forgiven say the same thing. I am sharing my experience as my act of gratitude to these people and also for the many gifts of wisdom that I have received from the Malesurvivor community. I am trying so hard to share my experience because I want to help you gain this freedom. It is frustrating because I can see your pain and frustration, but I think the work is worth it. Please have patience with me as I try to find the right words.

I hope and pray that my message will reach some of you. If my writing helps even one of you gain a higher level of peace and freedom in your life, then I have succeeded in passing on this gift. The only thing I would ask is that you pass the gift on to the next guy on the path.

It's for you.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56342 - 01/02/07 10:33 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
How? Can we truly forgive!
We cant, there is no way to do it, but we must accept that the guilt burden is not our own to carry.

The worst thing I found out last year, is that my abuse was not reported, and that sent shudders down my spine, because he threatened to kill me with an knife.

He threatened my family and said he knew where I lived, and had me live in terror each day and night, waiting for his return, but at the police station, they must have seen how hurt I was, and should have spoken further to me.

Reconciliation to me, is to recognise that I am not nor ever was a filthy little brat.
Kids have a thing about adults being right, and even when faced with abuse, they cannot readily see it as abuse, just something to expect of adults.

They have no way of talking their way through it and seeing that it was wholly innapropriate for an adult to treat a child that way, and that brings so many problems in trust within the child.

I even thought as a kid that I will go to hell for what happened, even though it was not my fault,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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