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#56313 - 12/26/06 02:59 PM Something curious to me
VN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 723
In the 'forgiveness' thread, several people have said things like, 'some things can not be forgiven', or that some people do not deserve forgiveness. I do not agree or disagree completely with either those things, but it make something curious to me.

What kind of person Do deserve forgiveness for being perpetrator of child abuse? What kind of things must that person do, or say, to show that they are someone who deserve forgiveness? Or is there not anything they can do to correct what they have done and forgiveness never can be done?

I do not mean to create something where arguments or not tolerating another person's thoughts are to be done. I am just curious, of what different people here think deserves forgiveness, or if it is just impossible. Please, no arguing or not respecting views of other people. Thank you.

VN


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#56314 - 12/26/06 05:23 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Visha,

My question would be, "Who doesn't deserve forgiveness?"

All children are all born innocent. That means that for at least some part of their lives, perps were innocent children. Then something happened to change that and they chose a dark path.

Personally I believe that every person is capable of redemption and a return to the innocence of their childhood. And my choice to forgive perps is a reflection of that belief. When I forgive a perp I do two things: 1) I acknowledge his prior innocence, and 2) I express my hope that he can return to that innocence.

I don't see this as a "gift" or something that I am giving up to my perp. Instead, I see it as a gift to humanity in general. Forgiveness has brought me internal peace, and that internal peace has brought me hope that there can be a greater peace in the world. And that is really the truth of it. Forgiveness is a gift of love; to yourself, to humanity, and to the innocent child that became your perp.

When you think of forgiving your perp, reflect on his prior innocence, and ask yourself; "if I could go back in time and give that child one ray of hope, so that he chooses not to become a criminal, would I do it?" And if your answer is yes, then I ask, what is stopping you from forgiving him now?

Forgiveness is nothing more than that. It is a message to that innocent child that there is hope. It doesn't excuse your perp of anything. It doesn't excuse what he did to you and other children. Your perp may never know if you choose to forgive him, and quite possibly, even if he did know, he probably wouldn't care. Your perp may even be actively molesting children. None of that really matters. Forgiveness is just the message, from you to yourself, and to humanity, that innocence can be regained.

"I worry about fast forgivers. They tend to forgive quickly in order to avoid their pain. Or they forgive fast in order to get an advantage over the people they forgive. And their instant forgiving only makes things worse. People who have been wronged badly and wounded deeply should give themselves time and space before they forgive. There is a right moment to forgive. We cannot predict it in advance; we can only get ourselves ready for it when it arrives. Don't do it quickly, but don't wait too long. If we wait too long to forgive, our rage settles in and claims squatter's rights to our souls."
-- Lewis B. Smedes.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56315 - 12/26/06 10:39 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think that sometimes if not all we treat life like a mystery, something not quite right, not being able sometimes to react the way we really feel.

I was going to post another thread about how we perceive ourselves against what other ppl would think of reaction to what we say.

Forgiveness is never that, but the ability to put the shame and guilt on another track until it comes back.

It is about forgiving yourself for something out of your control, but lacking the resource to bring about justice of the past.

How many times do we judge others?
We do it every day, sometimes unconsciously.
I would forgive those who do not do me personal damage, and would expect apology off other person, if it was not, of truth,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56316 - 12/27/06 03:14 AM Re: Something curious to me
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11134
Loc: Denver, CO
VN,

(Let me say to avoid arguing with anyone that this is how forgiveness works for me...)

I have learned for myself that forgiveness is possible once I process the hurt behind the crime. Forgiveness is more for me than it is the perp. Once the hurt is felt and dealt with, I can forgive. What if the perp is not alive to ask forgiveness? Should I carry their burden with me the rest of my life, hoping for a request for forgiveness that will never happen? Am I to hold fast to this debt someone owes me with no chance of ever collecting it?

Forgiveness to me is not simply writing off the crime and living with my losses brought upon me by someone who was self-serving in their crime against me. It is not simply letting them off the hokk without so much as a whimper of the crime doen against me. Their wrong will indeed be declared one way or another, through my words or through my actions - hopefully only in healthy ways.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#56317 - 12/27/06 04:12 AM Re: Something curious to me
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i will agree that forgivness has to be something you do for yourself ,cause your perp dont care ,if he cared about the outcome of his actions well he wouldnt have done it would he?if my perp could travel through time and undo what he did ? i still wouldnt forgive him .i looked up the defenition of forgive ,'to pardon,to remit ,to overlook' nothing in there about it making you feel better,to overlook? like it never happened?id rather forget than forgive and damned if i'll waste one moment trying to decide if i should do it. i feel good about my decision ,it does not bother me ,and my hate does not consume me it shows me im strong . what could they do to deserve forgivness ? nothing . they dont give a rats ass if we forgive them or not.im sure that when they got tired of abusing us they forgot about us ,my perp dont spend sleepless nights wondering if i forgive him ,why should i waste one minute wondering if i should? just as forgivness is a personal choice ,not forgiving is too. if i cant go back and reclaim my innocence ,then how could my perp ever do that? i keep hearing that we need to forgive ourselves ,i just dont get that at all ?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#56318 - 12/31/06 06:59 PM Re: Something curious to me
FLRich Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 1404
Visha,

While I agree with Nobby regarding "who doesn't deserve to be forgiven?" I am personally not in a place to do that. I dont' care to forgive them for what they took from me. If that makes me a weak or bad person, so be it. I've been called and made to feel worse in my life.

As long as I can live with myself, I dont' feel any need to forgive and make my perps feel any better about their lives. I honestly try not to think about them too much, but as anyone here knows, that is not always possible.


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#56319 - 12/31/06 08:29 PM Re: Something curious to me
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Like Andy, I'm going to add a caveat at the beginning of this saying:

"This is only the way I see it, not a statement that anyone else is wrong or that they should believe it the way I do."

I don't know......... Perhaps I'm a heretic here, but it seems to me there is lots of confusion between forgiving another for a wrong done, and personal growth.

To me forgiveness requires the action of two people. The perp needs to feel genuine sorrow and repentance for what he did and must seek to make it amends for his wrongful actions. The victim must then choose to accept the heartfelt apology and to grant forgiveness.

Personal growth, on the other hand, is the victim simply deciding he is no longer going to allow the wrongs done in the past to fill his life with poison. In essence it is him getting to the point where if forgiveness is ever sought he will be able to take it on board and be able to forgive should he choose to do so.

I'm not sure the term "deserve forgiveness" applies to someone who is not repentant of the evil they have done.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#56320 - 12/31/06 08:36 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Let us replace the word forgivenss with reconciliation.
Reconciliation with who you really are, from the little boy who was innocent.

The man who has grown from the little boy, to be a good man on earth,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#56321 - 12/31/06 09:11 PM Re: Something curious to me
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by walkingsouth:
I'm not sure the term "deserve forgiveness" applies to someone who is not repentant of the evil they have done.
Ask yourselves these questions. They are horrible questions to ask, but I will not apologise for listing them. I beg you to please accept these questions as they are, that is as "universal" questions, not questions that I am asking you personally. I can't answer them honestly myself. However I do believe that they can lead to the truth of forgiveness.


Are you truly repentant of the all the evil that you have done?


Do you expect to be forgiven by the people that you yourself have wronged?


Are you aware of every single wrong that you have committed against others?


And if you are not aware of all the wrongs that you have committed against others, how (and when) do you plan to make amends for these wrongs?


Or do you feel justified in wronging others? If so, why do you feel that you are justified in this? And would you consider it fair to be judged by the same measure with which you are judging others? If not, why not?


Do you understand the universal concepts of Peace, Hope and Love? Do you consider yourself a peaceful, hopeful and loving person, as defined by these universal concepts?


Are you aware of the Golden Rule of Humanity? This rule is present in every single religion, belief and creed on the planet. Do you accept that the truth of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" applies to every single human being, including you? If not, why not?


If you accept that you may have wronged others without knowing,
that you deserve to be judged as you judge others,
that you expect others to treat you as well as you treat others,
and that you understand the concepts of peace, hope and love,


then why do you feel that perps do not deserve forgiveness?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#56322 - 12/31/06 09:25 PM Re: Something curious to me
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I often use that>
_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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