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#56197 - 07/23/03 08:47 PM Chemical Castration
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I dont quite know how to start this cause it is causing me a lot of really big problems.

Most but not everytime I have a bad nightmare I wake up with an erection because I have to go to the bathroom. I think that it is this that causes the nightmare most of the time.

Also when I am awake and sort of having a flashback or remembering something that happened to me I get aroused and feel those old urges coming on. Same when I wake up after a nightmare.

This really scares the hell out of me because of my past history of re-enacting my abuse and life on the street.

I have discussed it with my Therapist and asked him if there was something to reduce my libido and he suggested the Clarke Institute and Chemical Castration. I guess it is some kind of drug.

I am frightened about the effects and would like to know more about it but I was afraid to ask. Also is it permanent? It is the same thing they give to criminals I think.

Help me guys I dont know what to do. Is there any other solution or something I could try.

I am so ashamed right now cause I hate being weak. But I really need some input

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#56198 - 07/23/03 09:04 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mike
The forces used bromide during the war to keep the soldiers 'calm', but I have no idea what effects it has or whether it's still used.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#56199 - 07/23/03 09:31 PM Re: Chemical Castration
bec Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/02
Posts: 187
Loc: chicagoland area
dear Mikey:

be careful my friend. all medicines have side effects. some of which are mild and others severe. i know this from personal experience. so take it slowly and know all the possible harm before popping that first pill. good luck. sincerely,

bec


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#56200 - 07/23/03 10:40 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Cement Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 740
Loc: Southern California
walk lightly in this area. I have no experience from which to speak, but do not hasten to do what may be very difficult to undo.

And erections are not about strength; they are about biology.

_________________________
And let the darkness fear our light.

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#56201 - 07/24/03 12:59 AM Re: Chemical Castration
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Mike,

I've had similar experiences--not exactly the same but in the same neighborhood.

Besides the waking up in the middle of the night with an erection, I would also become erect at very embarassing moments.

Of course, my reaction to all of this was influenced by the history of abuse.
I turned the embarassment in to shame.

It would happen in the dentists chair, with my male therapist, when I would be having a conversation with a good friend who was being especially kind, the worst was when some of my hetereosexual friends would reach out to me in a caring way; maybe a hug, or a pat on the back, sometimes just a kind word and I would get a hard-on.

The worst was that I seemed to get aroused when I cried or felt hurt. I convinced myself that it was because I was sexually aroused by hurt and pain. My T helped me see that was
wrong.

That turned out to be false and so were many of my other theories.

Mike, if you're going to start messing with that plumbing stuff down there, go and see a good plumber.

Go see a urologist. The therapist is good and worked well for the psychological, emotional part of it, but for the mechanics, get you a good urologist.

And even, then proceed cautiously.

Finally, what I discovered with the help of my therapist is that while I had some physical symptoms, the real source of most of my shame and discomfort was from the way I perceived what was happening.

I appreciate your courage and honesty, Mike, in bringing this to the discussion.
It's this sort of problem that lots of men have. And it's this sort of problem that can cause survivors of sexual abuse special anxiety and concern.

My good thoughts go with you, brother. It'll work out.

Your brother,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#56202 - 07/24/03 05:20 PM Re: Chemical Castration
tallsteve Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 404
Loc: Boston, MA
Hello Mike,

Thank you for sharing something so deep and painful in you with us.

Mike, you are most definitely not weak. It takes a strong man to be wiliing to admit his difficulties and consider a course of action. And too, puttting your situation in public here on the boards.

In your post you state that you "think" one thing causes another. In truth you do not know for sure.

Be sure to tell the doctor everything and I know it may be tough to do. It may hurt but you can do it.

Do not feel presurred to make a decision quickly.

Make sure you get all the information you need - side effects, long term implications, etc.

Explore and consider other alternatives.

Keep fears, facts and assumptions clear and separate.

Continue to ask for help.

Hugs,
Steve


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#56203 - 07/24/03 11:03 PM Re: Chemical Castration
MEC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 62
Loc: NJ
Hi Mike,
Very courageous! I have some experience with self-medicating with those drugs. I can't honestly say why I took them, didn't want to become a woman, but I think it was because of self hate and of being a man. I didn't like the sexual side of being gay and hoped the pills would take the thoughts and libido away.

After about 3-4 weeks I lost the ability to have an erection but could still masturbate with some work. The ejaculate diminished considerably. Body hair will eventually be reduced, but breast development is a side effect if taken long enough.

In all honesty, I don't think I reduced my libido, but I stopped after like 4 months or so. Actually, because sexually I wanted to be less of a man, the libido was enhanced. So, maybe with your desire to do something admirable and healthy, it will have that effect both physically and psychologically.

Mail me if you have any other questions. I'm not an authority by any means, but I'll do my best to answer your questions if any. There's a transgender site i used to go to, dealing with m2f subjects, including antiandrogens
antiandrogens (spelling) you are talking about. I think that's what they're called. The website is hosted by a person using the title of Dr. and the advice is fairly clinical in nature.

This comes from that website http://www.annelawrence.com/regimens.html

A hormone regimen should also reduce testosterone to normal female levels. This usually requires adding an anti-androgen.

In persons who have not had an orchiectomy, reducing testosterone levels is also a concern. Although the desired reduction in testosterone can theoretically be accomplished with estrogen alone, the dosage required is usually in excess of what is needed for feminization. Adding an anti-androgen allows lower dosages of estrogen to be used; this is usually highly desirable. Typical dosages of anti-androgens are as follows:
Oral anti-androgens:

spironolactone (Aldactone®), 100-300 mg daily in divided doses; OR
cyproterone acetate (Androcur®), 100-150 mg daily.

Sometimes 100 mg of spironolactone may be sufficient, but 200–300 mg is a more typical dose. The Vancouver group uses up to 600 mg daily, apparently without problems. Spironolactone is fairly inexpensive, is readily available, and is usually quite well tolerated. Cyproterone is not available in the US, but is popular elsewhere. One of the disadvantages of cyproterone is that it counteracts some of the desirable effects of estrogen on blood lipids.
If you have access to laboratory testing, a serum testosterone level within the normal female range – about 5-85 ng/dl for total testosterone, or 0.1–2.2 pg/ml for free testosterone – is usually considered ideal. Within the female normal range, lower numbers are not necessarily better.


Good luck

_________________________
Michael

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#56204 - 07/24/03 11:29 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Marc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 256
Loc: Tucson, AZ
mike,

please don't take this wrong no matter WHAT it sounds like...

even male dogs get hard ons at the most inappropriate times. imho, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you for being this way. it is an involuntary response mechanism that some people can control better than others but i don't feel that chemical castration is an acceptable nor desirable alternative. i don't believe that it is even a necessary thing unless you are truly putting someone in danger. go easier on yourself guy. it's a part of you... and not something to be ashamed of... EVER! cc is not for a fear of shame but for the need to curtail dangerous sexual urges. are yours really that dangerous? are they dangerous to you or to someone else? there are PLENTY of things that you can take to lessen your frequency of erections that are quite safe including certain anti-depressants as we all know!

love yourself... sexuality is something that god gave us all to rejoice in... not fear. no one should have to fear it. work on the fear, not the symptom! \:\)


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#56205 - 07/24/03 11:36 PM Re: Chemical Castration
MurrayNYC Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/30/02
Posts: 141
Loc: New York
Hi Mike
I am a psychiatrist and a MS Board Member. Chemical castration is a srious treatment usually reserved for sexual offenders. The drug most used is Lupron which inhibits the production of brain hormones that control the production of testosterone by the testicles. This does result in impotence and is reversible. But it seems like an extreme treatment that I would never recommend.
Antidepressants like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor can reduce libido and also can cause delayed ejaculation, but not in every person. But they are effective not only as antidepressants but also as anti-anxiety meds which may be more helpful to you.
It would seem that this symptom needs to be tempered so that you could work through the problems that provoke it rather than dimming down your sex drive, which is a reaction to your anxiety and a common reaction. Reducing sex drive will not really help with that and being impotent will not likely make you feel better about yourself.
Obivously these ideas should not be taken as recommendations for treatment since I do not know you and cannot give that kind of advice. But I felt you should know what medications are available and what they could offer.


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#56206 - 07/24/03 11:56 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Mikey

I am sorry I can't add anything to the discussion except to wish you the quickest and safest route to your peace and well-being.

Ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#56207 - 07/25/03 09:51 AM Re: Chemical Castration
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Everyone thank you for your support and information and advice. I am seeing my psychiatrist today and I am finally going to take the bull by the horns, so to speak, and have a really good discussion about this issue.
Murray- Thanks for the great information
Lloyd, bec and Cement- Appreciate your comments
Danny - I know I am not alone with this now!!
Steve- Well you know how I feel about your comments. Thanks
Mec-all that info-Wow- I have never had the guts to look it up, fear factor I guess.

Ron-thanks but I could not read it for some reason

I will let you guys all know about my talk today

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#56208 - 07/25/03 01:52 PM Re: Chemical Castration
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Mikey, you sure have a lot of support here.

I do not want to seem to dismiss any of your pain. At the same time, I have to tell you that I remember what erections felt like, and I would give anything to have one these days--it has been several years now!

Your main point, if I got it correctly, is that you are worried about thinking about going to the streets again. I sure can understand that fear. But, you know, you are a much different man today. It may seem like a real threat and maybe it is. But, I think you will be able to keep yourself from going there.

Dr. Murray gives you some good advice about what medications can do. I know this Mikey, there is no way I would ever take medical castration unless I was a consistent threat to others. A sex offender. Otherwise, forget it.

I hope that the talk goes well. I didn't get the idea that the erections are the biggest worry. I think it is the other point.
I really doubt that it is something you would do. but I understand the fear of it.

We do get some really strong and scarey thoughts at times, but we have lots more strength these days to maintain our boundaries and to respect others boundaries.

Peace brother.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#56209 - 07/25/03 06:46 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I say Shree today and we had a good talk. Steve I let it all hang out. What a relief. I told him I was terrified of re-enacting my sa. In a sick way I still remember being wanted. Yeh Right!!! I was just a piece of meat.

He told me that what I was experiencing apart from the erections is the cirlce of anxiety. I would get anxious about not acting out and look for a solution and it would increase and increase in the past until I would actually act it out. Then I would feel remorse or guilt and pain then the anxiety again slowly building. He told me that there may be no answer for the erections and that I was looking for something that possibly might not exist.

He asked me when I was not bothered or anxious. I told him that when I was working out or biking or really busy it never entered my mind but watching tv or relaxing or day dreaming at work it came back.. He said the erections may be residual release left over. I dont know.

He told me to keep busy at anything and everything. I have broken the circle of anxiety and just do not realize it.

He maintained my meds at 150mg of effexor and 150mg of welbrutin.

I want to thank all of you here for the support you have given me. It gave me the courage to actually get in all out.

Shree said to never ever to consider the chemical stuff.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#56210 - 07/25/03 09:12 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mike
that's great news, and it shows the power of opening our mouths and asking for help.

Just because we've done it once when we started recovery it doesn't mean we can't do it again as we go along.

I understand the fear of acting out again, I still have it and it's terrifying.
At the moment I have a lot of outside stress, sick parents and all manner of crap going on, and I can feel the old 'comforts' simmering away in the background. They taunt me, tell me I can escape from the crap for a while.

My best defence is remembering the guilt and shame of acting out, it's something I loath with a vengence; but I never want to forget the memories of that self loathing.
If I can keep that memory with me, it puts the outside crap into perspective. And 'life' can't throw anything at me that's as bad as I've thrown at myself

If I can't make myself forget everything completely and utterly, then I need to remember it clearly.

Not to dwell on it, not to distort it like I used to; but to understand it as best I can.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#56211 - 07/25/03 11:17 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Dave Thank you.
Quote:
If I can't make myself forget everything completely and utterly, then I need to remember it clearly.
That is exactly what I needed to hear. God it is so true. I can never forget but I must also guard against glossing it over. I have to remember it in all its loathsome glory so to speak. The torment, the pain and the guilt from acting out. God I never want to forget that.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#56212 - 07/26/03 03:02 AM Re: Chemical Castration
muffin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Washinton
Mikey,

It's really your decision, obviously, but don't be too hard on yourself. I get an erection sometimes when something brushes against me, simply. And also, now the "official word" is that nocturnal erections are always sexual, but I think this is baloney. When I squeeze the muscle that prevents me from peeing, that's also the muscle that makes the penis more erect, I guess because it cuts off both urine and blood at the same time. Anyway, all I'm saying is that you may be having an erection because you're nervous of losing control, nervous of peeing in bed, or something like that. I say, take things one step at a time, and don't punish yourself.

Muffin


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#56213 - 08/01/03 08:19 PM Re: Chemical Castration
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I am going absolutley crazy. The urge to re-enact is so powerful. I have made an appointment to talk to the Clark Institute On Tuesday at 2.30 pm. I have to do something. I am terrified that if I re-enact I will harm myself. I have thought a lot about that lately.

If I do not keep busy doing something I cannot get it off my mind. I can almost taste it it is so close and calling me like a rotten fruit.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#56214 - 08/01/03 08:35 PM Re: Chemical Castration
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Mikey,

What else is going on? What's bringing the urge back to you now? Or what other recent healthy changes have you made, that removed some other crutch?

I think you're looking at a pretty drastic treatment. I hope you can find a better way to get through this. No matter what you do, remember that we are here.

Your brother,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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