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#5420 - 10/07/02 05:39 PM Re: Mother Abuse
jaketk Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 49
Loc: illinois
offline i have a safe net of people who i can talk to. places like this are great because it's more comfortable to talk with others who've been thru the same thing. it's like being with my brothers and my cousins, where i can make a simple comment, and not have to explain what i meant by it. it's unfortunate that what binds us is something like abuse, but i like being able to speak without having to go into explicit detail.

i talk with my father and my older brother a lot now. my father is very open about what he did. in fact, all anyone has to do is ask, and he'll admit he abused us. no problem. in public, with crowds, he really doesn't care. i talk with him more because he is my father than anything else. i'm used to his presence, and after it not being there, i needed to at least see him. i never meet him alone, always in public, always where we're on even ground. we eat lunch together almost everyday because he lives near my school (i'm in college).

i've seen the double standard in play many times. it really gets to me, most likely irritates me, that some women will blatantly contradict themselves. however, i get pissed off when other women back them up. like you said, one minute we're all equals, the next, only they are the victims.

growing up, i never learned to see women as victims because only my oldest uncle was interested in girls. that's not to exonerate him, or lessen what he did to my female cousin, the only girl in the house, but bottom line was, he was the one to do most of the stuff to her. he'd make me and my cousin and brother hurt her. then my uncles and father would join in, mostly chiding us to do it harder, make her scream, which really wasn't going to happen, we were only kids, and i don't know of any kids that well endowed. it bothers me to this day that i helped rape her, but i never saw her as a victim because she was female. i saw her as a victim because of her father. my aunts weren't ever asked to do anything to us, they did it on their own. they weren't part of the loop. so i never saw women get treated as victims.

i don't have any problem telling women face to face that i can't and don't trust them. yes, it annoys and angers many women, and it practically labels me by default as a misogynist (i got called this in a summer class this past august. i had to look the word up because i didn't know what it meant) because i won't say they're always victims.

out of group therapy i met two very kind men, twice my age, but real good friends, who i talk to almost every week. it wasn't a total waste, but i wish it had gone differently. the trial i can't explain. i don't understand how someone can say they did it, was caught doing, has physical, undisputable videotaped proof they did, and a jury say, “eh, she's not that guilty.”

thanks for letting me rant a little.

jake


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#5421 - 10/08/02 04:15 AM Re: Mother Abuse
Broken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Huntingtun Beach, CA, US
If we live in a country where there is a draft, and women want to be equal, they will start being treated as equals when they are no longer immune to the draft.

Yes, men are to blame for inequality. But so are women for not fighting bloody battles to claim their freedom. That is the rule of the jungle, if you want freedom, you have to stand up for yourself. And if you are not willing to resort to violence, you still have a responsibility to fight for your freedom. Women who do not understand this will always be treated as inferior because the will always BELIEVE themselves inferior. In a small country in africa, there is an army composed of 40 % females. Granted, most are in support roles and never see action.

But a society of victomization is perpetuated by both men and women. Until we destroy the vacuous, dimwitted american streotype of gender, sexuality, and most importantly the denial of attrocity, Id say you have every right to distrust men and women on the general principle that thier willfull ignorence and apathy created a world where you were victomized over and over again by an unjust society.

So fuck em, if thats how you feel, then thats how you feel. We answer to a higher authority, our conscience, our sense of justice. People can be cruel, but that doesnt mean we have to be. And that doesnt mean there is no hope for people to change, no hope to live in a just world. There is.

If i had a point here, (i think i lost it somewhere down the road) its that women are accountable for thier actions, and it is time to pay the piper.


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#5422 - 10/10/02 10:40 AM Re: Mother Abuse
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Jake:

Wow it amazes me you are able to talk to your father like that; can't even imagine talking to my mother at all right now. Of course all people & situations are different, and things do change.

You know I never thot of it quite like that before: I never really saw women victimized either growing up; they were almost always the victimizers, by direct abuse or by neglect. Most of my perps, especially the main ones, were women. My male perps were all coerced & seduced by women, particularly my mother. Maybe that's why, in stark contrast to our society, I can rather easily see males as victims, but can hardly see women that way at all.

Ironically, the only persons (face to face) I trust very deeply at all are my wife and daughters, and still with plenty of limits. I've just had trouble ever getting to know men very well, probably becuz they were pretty much never there for me. So I don't trust men much either.

That's what makes an anonymous forum like this one, even with its limitations, so valuable.

Rant on Jake, that's what its for!

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#5423 - 10/10/02 10:55 AM Re: Mother Abuse
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Good insights about women, freedom and equality. I quite agree. I wonder how many women would take having a less qualified man hired or promoted before them, w/o a fight.

Hey, let's all just join the Three Stooges Woman Haters Club. Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk! :p

But really, I'm sick of being stereotyped by people who are always whining about being stereotyped themselves.

If we're gonna have equality, then let's be consistent with it and go all the way with it!

Congressional Resolution: Men on the front lines in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Middle East & elsewhere will be replaced by women, until the combat zones contain 50% women & 50% men!

New Labor Law: When a man & a woman, equally qualified, are up for a job or promotion, a random drawing shall determine who gets the job!

Well, I guess we get the point. I wish they would!
Pay that piper, ladies! God knows I've paid enuf!

Thanks Broken. Your blend of brutal honesty and hopeful optimism is refreshing.

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#5424 - 10/18/02 02:12 AM Re: Mother Abuse
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Somewhere in my belongings I have a button that says "Men are not the enemy,
they are our fellow victims -- Betty Freidan." I believe she is the original
feminist writer.
I think the gender converse of this statement fits here too that women are
not our enemy, they are our fellow victims. Over the years I have experienced
the generalized rage of many women towards men. This included my own
mother's rage, and that rage was fodder when she perped a vulnerable me and
my two brothers. I have also seen the damage done by men by expressing
generalized rage towards women, children and men.
The culture that denies men our vulnerability and women's violence is one
that is participated in by both genders. Shotgun rage does nothing but pass on
senseless horror and agony onto innocent people.
Our shadows are the parts of ourselves that we wish weren't. One of my
shadows is my own misogyny (the hatred of women). Another shadow of mine
is misandry (the hatred of men [my own kind]).


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#5425 - 10/18/02 08:47 AM Re: Mother Abuse
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
RJD:

A lot of good points & thanks for making them. I must confess (guess I'm in a confessional mood) to both misogyny & misandry. I also must confess I did not know that about Betty Freidan. I wonder how many modern feminists know about it. A great insight indeed.

Like you and many others here, I too have experienced the generalized rage of women towards men, especially thru my mother. I'm sure I've also experienced the generalized anger of men toward women, like in being raped by a gay couple, tho I tend, not without justification, to blame that on my mother, since she sold me to them.

So I doubtless have more misogyny than misandry, at least its more outward. This fits the pattern of my life, in which women were very active & often abusive, and men were largely absent but often abusive when they were around, tho usually at the instigation of my mother.

You're right, this culture of violence is perpetrated by both genders and the genders must work together as Betty Freidan indicated in working to overcome that violence & abusiveness.

I've known for years thru experience & more recently thru therapy that I have a major problem with women in general. I've made progress, but clearly I have a long way to go.

Thanks for sharing that with us so openly & honestly, RJD.

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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