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#5388 - 04/13/03 08:31 PM Feeling better
taipan Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 57
Loc: CT
I posted this on the family and friends side of the board......I'm not sure if any of you read both the male survivor stuff AND the family stuff. I am also going through a family crisis so I read both.
I have realized something very interesting this week. Since I have been away from Lori, I feel BETTER?!......strong, liberated, peaceful, and empowered.
It was difficult to understand why I am feeling better when I am away from everything I Love. I thought last week that I could not survive without my home and family. I always viewed my home as my "safe zone", my children mean the world to me, and I have been in love with Lori since I was 17 years old (22 years), and to top it all off, I thought I had nobody else in the world to love and support me.
Well, as it turns out, my kids love me for me, not for the person who plays and cooks for them.
My "safe zone" turns out to be within ME.
I still love Lori, but I think we are just too different to be together. I like to treat her like a queen (and my kids like a prince and princess), and Lori does not like to be loved that way. She is far too independent and self centered to be comfortable being treated like a queen.
Also, just as my therapist said, I was using Lori as a crutch. When she was around I would desperately seek her attention. My therapist thinks that’s because I on some level want someone to take care of me....emotionally....perhaps because my parents never did (emotionally).
And as I have said in previous posts, there are LOTS of loving supportive people around me. I guess my isolation was self imposed!
I sought therapy to figure out my SA issues on 2-21-03, (7 weeks ago); I was going not because I suddenly determined I needed help after burring it all for 28 years.....I was going in hopes of saving my marriage. Well my marriage can not be saved, but I am SO glad I committed myself to this process because I have learned and grown SO much.
I hope my plight will give some of you hope. My path to realizing all of this "stuff" has been a rough one. 7 weeks of hell was well worth it because I learned these two (and so many more!)very important things:
1. I can be happy.......NO MATTER WHAT!
2. My life is beautiful because I accept it as it is.


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#5389 - 04/14/03 05:14 AM Re: Feeling better
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Taipan,

thanks for this post, I have to say that I am temendously shocked by your story. So shocked in fact that when I read it (actually anticipating the end of the story like I do so often so as not to be surprised I guess), I thought this was another post of someone in a marriage who suddenly found themselves and now it's all better and the marriage is great!

I don't know if you read my discussion, New and Feeling Discouraged, but your quote:

"I thought last week that I could not survive without my home and family. I always viewed my home as my "safe zone", my children mean the world to me"

spoke volumes to me. Volumes in the sense that you've managed to somehow see that you have more than one option in life.

Buddy I don't know how you did it because I see myself in a battle of epic proportions with no way out. I too have been going to therapy in hopes of saving my marriage, seems like you've managed to be far more effective in such a short period of time . I've been going for the last two years for my personal issues (only to find myself spiraling down further into the abyss) and marriage therapy for the last few weeks (which is not turning very positive right now).

I sincerely hope that in 7 months from now you can feel the same or better about your life, yourself, your options.


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#5390 - 04/14/03 06:53 AM Re: Feeling better
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
It is funny how just one little bit of insight can change your whole world.

For me what you said was the key… “My life is beautiful because I accept it as it is.”

I walked around for years judging myself against this picture of normality that I had in my mind. It was when I realized that the rest of the world wasn’t judging me sick or perverted, it was only me that I finally found acceptance. With acceptance came peace.

Too many times we see things a certain way because we believe it is normal to see them that way. Kind of like the family being the ‘safe place’. We want to believe that, because society and our take on it tells us that is how it should be, but when you just don’t feel it, you don’t. Acceptance allowed me to face the truth at last, a whole lot of bitter truths, and acceptance allowed me to walk on without judging myself for those things.

It was hard for me to accept that I am bi-sexual, but there was peace in it as well. I could at last get on with life without all the pain of struggling against it. I can be at peace with my wife, because I have chosen to be with her in marriage, and no longer carry guilt over finding certain men attractive. I feel what I feel, and think what I think, and have peace with that. It means a whole lot to be able to face life, and accept whatever hand you are dealt.

Congrats, I am glad you are moving along so quickly…

Take care,
jeff

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#5391 - 04/14/03 07:11 AM Re: Feeling better
taipan Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 57
Loc: CT
Jimrh, thanks or your kind words, I wish I knew what to say to offer you some help. I guess our posts do a little of that for each other. While I was without my computer for 5 days I missed checking in here very very much.
After everything I was feeling the previous week, I woke up just now this morning missing Lori! We had a great conversation last night about the kids ect....I now have to remind myself that it is OK to miss her, and still feel everything I had previously said. It's a roller coaster, that’s for sure.
So I think the strength I have found within myself will come and go.....and maybe the key is to be able to recognize that bring myself back when I start to go the wrong direction (which you just helped me do by you post).
Keep the faith, I wish you the very best, I will be thinking of you, Sincerely, Ed


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#5392 - 04/14/03 07:22 AM Re: Feeling better
taipan Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 57
Loc: CT
Zodak that was very well said. I hope Jimrh will read what you have written.
You have just given me some insight into WHY I was so afraid to lose my "safe zone” and about WHY I viewed myself the way I did for so many years.
Thanks much my friend, Ed


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#5393 - 04/14/03 07:23 PM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195

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#5394 - 04/14/03 07:26 PM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
Quote:
Les, I don't know if this is a very good thing to post right now... I think it will make the involved parties just feel worse about themselves.

No one should have to stay with someone who is unkind or abusive to them... didn't we learn anything from out childhood?

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#5395 - 04/15/03 01:34 AM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Sorry I have to post that, I'd post it again. I couldn't have listened to my wife talk and cry for years about how her life was shattered by her parents divorce and not post that. I'm sure Taipan would want me to post that if he didn't already know. Better to feel bad now than to shatter someone's life and feel even worse about it later because you didn't know what you were about to do could make someone feel as bad or worse than any of us who post on this site.

I'm only trying to help, sometimes it helps to have all the information when weighing a decision.

Peace
MO Healing


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#5396 - 04/15/03 07:36 AM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
So I guess you would rather that he stay and be unhappy and be abused?

Yes, it sure is great to have your kids grow up thinking it is ok to be abused!!

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#5397 - 04/15/03 08:03 AM Re: Feeling better
taipan Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 57
Loc: CT
No, I will not visit that site. If I could change the world, I would have my wife love me again and then my kids would not have to go through a divorce.
I was lamenting to my therapist that my kids will now come from divorced home and that will negatively impact their future and I said to her "you know the statistics of how kids are affected by divorce". Her reply was that the statistics of kid who grow up in shitty marriages are equally as bad.
Now again, I love my wife and I would not choose any of this......but I can not control her ....and I truly believe that EVERYONE deserves to be happy in life, and she was not happy in our marriage.
So now we as parents have to make the best out of a bad.


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#5398 - 04/15/03 08:07 AM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
Right, taipan. A bad marriage can be more harmful to kids than a divorce, especially if one or both of the parents are bad role models. Someone who stays in a relationship even after being constantly treated badly is not a very good role model for their children so I am glad that you did the right thing. My parents divorced when I was 10, and it was one of the best things that ever happened to me, because I adored my father and was very happy to see him get away from my abusive and uncaring mother.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#5399 - 04/15/03 03:55 PM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey, I'm just trying to help. Ask your t to find you one statistical study saying kids in a bad marraige are worse off than divorced kids. I guarantee she wont find one because I looked for one and I kept finding the same results over and over.

My father in law's mistress told him that her parents got divorced and she didn't mind. So my father in law got the advice he wanted to hear and basically put his hands over his ears and screamed lalalalala when anybody gave him advice he didn't want to hear. So he did the thing that he thought would make him happy without regard for his children.

The result:
1. his kids have been in and out of therapy for 13 years
2. his kids haven't spoken to him in almost 13 years
3. his mistress left him for another sugar daddy
4. he has 4 grandkids he has never seen (one looks exactly like him)
4a he is in his mid 60's and could easily die without ever seeing them
5. he hates his 2 older sisters and his mother who beat him every day of his childhood, and they are the only family he has left
6. his 85 year old mother drinks a bottle of gin every day, so this Sunday on Easter my wife will spend part of the day crying in the bathroom, and he will spend part of the day cleaning up vomit that smells like gin with chunks of ham and Easter eggs in it
7. my wife saw him in a restaurant about a year ago, he didn't see her, she got up and left and my wife spent the rest of the day crying

Thumbs up? feeling better? 13 years ago he was, I don't know about now.

That survey link, and almost any survey, will tell you that most kids come out of divorce ok. 75% for boys, 66% for girls.

So chances are most of your kids will come out of the divorce happy well adjusted productive members of society like Sick Puppy.

So roll the dice if you want because its a crap shoot. 66%, 1 out of 3, 2 out of 6, so if you have a daughter like my wife, put 2 bullets in the chamber labeled misery, spin the barrel, put the gun up to her head and pull the trigger, chances are she will be fine. My wife wasn't but she might be. My wife's parents had an unhappy marraige, but she was so much happier when her parents were married.

Even if you are at your wits end and your at a point where you just have to think about your own happiness right now, consider what I have written above or go on the internet and get all the facts. Because my father in law went out of the frying pan and into the fire.

2 out of three are ok with divorce:
1. My father in law's mistess (a 29 year old divorced alchoholic aerobics instructor who enjoyed group sex with multiple guys, and from her early years routinely sought out older men in thier mid fifties like my father in law) - she is ok with her parents divorce.
2. Sick Puppy - he is ok with his parents divorce.
3. My wife - is not ok with divorce.

Again, some Ts are like doctor Ruth and tell you every thing you do and want to do is ok, and they usually have a waiting list and charge your insurance company 90 to 110 an hour. And maybe the ones that tell you what you dont want to hear can fit you in on a days notice and drive a 1985 Dodge Caravan to the office. I am not a t and I am not here to make friends,

I am just trying to help in the long run, even if I am making you feel worse now.

My oppinion:
Me: hate me now and thank me later
Your T: like her now and hate her later

Peace
MO Healing


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#5400 - 04/15/03 04:02 PM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
A bad marriage BETTER than divorce?

Do you even realize what usually takes place in a bad marriage? Do you think that parents constantly screaming at each other, treating each other badly, maybe even abusing each other and the children will make those children happier than if their parents did not live together, but were happy with themselves?

Do you realize that if a couple that no longer loves each other stay together, they will be a role model for their children, and their children will grow up to think that it is OK to let someone abuse you and beat you down, whether verbally or physically?

I would think that as a survivor you would understand that much.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#5401 - 04/15/03 04:28 PM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Yes, that is what I am saying - "A bad marraige is better than divorce".

Prove me wrong and find statistics that back up your position, not one example, not one therapists oppinion but statistics.

Sorry to rile you up Sick Puppy, some times posts make me mad too, its part of the healing process.

Peace
MO Healing


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#5402 - 04/15/03 04:35 PM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
I am not using what a therapist said or even a specific example. I am using common sense. How can you possibly think that it is better for a child to endure their parents constantly abusing each other, rather than their parents divorcing??

Let me point out that, very often, the most traumatic part of a divorce is the way the parents treat each other beforehand. If you ask a lot of kids of divorced parents what the worst part was, I bet they will say that the worst part was their parents fighting and not loving each other. Guess what?? In a bad marriage, that is what will go on 24/7, but it won't be STOPPED by divorce.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

Top
#5403 - 04/15/03 08:57 PM Re: Feeling better
taipan Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 57
Loc: CT
Les, I have to say you are totally and completely WRONG. Staying in a BAD marriage is terrible roll modeling. Now, working a bad marriage into a good marriage is GREAT role modeling. But staying in a bad marriage, a bad job or any other bad situation shows a lack of self esteem.
I wish my wife would not feel the way she does, and I may never understand or agree with the reasons why she feels she must leave the marriage....but she has every right to be happy in her life.....so do you and so do I. It is up to HER to weigh the effects a divorce will have on our kids against how unhappy she is. I think in our case she is making the wrong decision! But I can not control her.
My wife watched her alcoholic dad verbally and emotionally abuse her mom. And her mom would kneel at his feet and say that SHE was sorry. This so disgusted my wife that she has NO respect for her mom. And that environment screwed her up just as much as my SA screwed me up. Her mom and dad are still together living that very very sick co dependent relationship. She cooks cleans and waits on him hand and foot, and he is mean and nasty in return. Now as I have recently learned, that no way to waste your life. Does she not deserve to be happy? My wife’s brother STILL lives at home (he is 40), HATES is father, and treats his mother just like his dad does! And even sicker than that, her mom has created her primary relationship with her son (that is not uncommon in those sort of F'ed up situations)! So staying in that bad marriage really messed up the whole family.
Stay in a bad marriage..........no way.

Now let me finish by saying in MY situation, we do not have a BAD marriage. My wife was simply tired of my refusal to address my SA issues, and was unwilling to live any longer with an emotionally unavailable person. It took the realization of losing her to finally bring me to seek therapy for my SA issues. Even then, I was doing it to win her back not to help myself. But you know what? It was the best thing that ever happened to me..........now I can finally be happy (and so can she), and now at 40 years old, I can finally start to LIVE life!! And my wife and I are completely determined to be the BEST DAM divorced parents in the world....that is what we can do for our kids. No custody battles, no more arguments….what we have vowed to do is live in close proximity and cooperate in raising healthy happy children.

So LES I agree with Sick on this one.


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#5404 - 04/15/03 09:11 PM Re: Feeling better
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Guys,

I have to add that I cannot agree that a bad marriage is better than divorce. It is totally inconcievable that you could think that children living in an explosive environment are better off than not, let alone the parents.

In my own childhood, aside from the SA, I endured extreme physical abuse from my father and was used by my mother as a mental and physical shield against him.

I begged her to divorce him and even on one occaison pushed her over the edge which caused her to then react violently to me as a teenager. I begged God to kill him or give me the strength to kill him myself. Naturally I did not have that willpower. In the end, they finally divorced after 35 years of marriage, he went back to his high school fiance (!) who he was to marry when I was conceived during a fling my father had with my mother. Take a guess who ended up as his favorite punching bag for 24 years?

Statistics can be used to prove any point that you wish. The best answer to staying in or disolving a marriage rests with two partners making rational, sane decisions both in the interests of their children and themselves. I'm personally battling this among other issues of epic proportion at the moment. However, with the help of friends here on this site and my therapist, I'm gonna do my best to make it.

Taipan, I hope you keep your positive outlook and hope that somehow I can find some of it myself .

Peace.

Jim


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#5405 - 04/15/03 11:06 PM Re: Feeling better
ecb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 205
I have to agree with SP, Taipan and Jim on this one Les. I respect your opinon, but I disagree with it.

My parents were divorced before I was a year old, so my experience here would be from a "marriage-like" situation.

When I was fourteen years old my mother allowed her boyfriend to move in with her. He was an alcoholic, emotionally abusive and I fully belive would have been physically abusive towards my mother had I not stepped in. The one time he pushed her I beat the ever-loving shit out of him with a large club and informed him in no uncertian terms that I would kill him if he ever touched her again.

He lived with my mother for nine years, and I every day I spent in that house was a complete hell comprised of the most bitter, angry, drunken fights every single night of the week (on both sides. My mother would often drink out of anger and frustration of dealing with him.) Not a day went by after I beat him that I didn't kick myself for not killing him when I had the chance.

They never actually married but they were effectively married from a day to day point of view. All I can say is if a child were living in a house that had even the tiniest fraction of that kind of distain, frustration, anger and disfunctional behavior towards one another. I could NEVER under ANY circumstances advocate any couple staying together "for the kids" because let me tell you: you aren't doing the kids ANY kind of favor.

Admittedly, this is just my two cents based on my personal expereince and what I percieve as common sense, but there it is. Apologies if I have offended, but that's how I feel.

And I do agree with Jim that statistics can be used to prove or disprove anything. It's all in how the numbers are manipulated.

Eric


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#5406 - 04/16/03 05:15 PM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I didn't realize she was the one who wanted to get the divorce Taipan, I thought it was all your idea. In that case there might not be anything you can do to prevent it, So I wont reiterate my point, I think I already made it. I stick by it.

As far as statistics being able to be manipulated to prove any point. If that is true than there should be some out there that say the opposite of what I am saying, so if somebody who disagrees with me can show me where, you will be proving both points.

While your at it, show me one that says cigarette smoking is good for you. Everybody I know that smokes mentions like one person they know who lived to be 90 and smoked 3 packs a day as proof that it is harmless. Show me one that says you can win in Vegas. Everybody I know that gambles claims to know one person who wins every time they go.

My wife's Mom swore off remarriage, because she keeps ending up with the same person in every relationship she has had since she started dating boys. Most people I know do. Instead of being in a marriage with the same person, they have a string of relationships with basically the same person.

Divorce causes pain.
When I have pain and the only way to relieve it is to possibly cause someone else pain, I try to think of another solution.
But its your life, you are going to do what you are going to do, I'll do what I'm going to do.

Peace
MO Healing


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