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#5398 - 04/15/03 08:07 AM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
Right, taipan. A bad marriage can be more harmful to kids than a divorce, especially if one or both of the parents are bad role models. Someone who stays in a relationship even after being constantly treated badly is not a very good role model for their children so I am glad that you did the right thing. My parents divorced when I was 10, and it was one of the best things that ever happened to me, because I adored my father and was very happy to see him get away from my abusive and uncaring mother.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#5399 - 04/15/03 03:55 PM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey, I'm just trying to help. Ask your t to find you one statistical study saying kids in a bad marraige are worse off than divorced kids. I guarantee she wont find one because I looked for one and I kept finding the same results over and over.

My father in law's mistress told him that her parents got divorced and she didn't mind. So my father in law got the advice he wanted to hear and basically put his hands over his ears and screamed lalalalala when anybody gave him advice he didn't want to hear. So he did the thing that he thought would make him happy without regard for his children.

The result:
1. his kids have been in and out of therapy for 13 years
2. his kids haven't spoken to him in almost 13 years
3. his mistress left him for another sugar daddy
4. he has 4 grandkids he has never seen (one looks exactly like him)
4a he is in his mid 60's and could easily die without ever seeing them
5. he hates his 2 older sisters and his mother who beat him every day of his childhood, and they are the only family he has left
6. his 85 year old mother drinks a bottle of gin every day, so this Sunday on Easter my wife will spend part of the day crying in the bathroom, and he will spend part of the day cleaning up vomit that smells like gin with chunks of ham and Easter eggs in it
7. my wife saw him in a restaurant about a year ago, he didn't see her, she got up and left and my wife spent the rest of the day crying

Thumbs up? feeling better? 13 years ago he was, I don't know about now.

That survey link, and almost any survey, will tell you that most kids come out of divorce ok. 75% for boys, 66% for girls.

So chances are most of your kids will come out of the divorce happy well adjusted productive members of society like Sick Puppy.

So roll the dice if you want because its a crap shoot. 66%, 1 out of 3, 2 out of 6, so if you have a daughter like my wife, put 2 bullets in the chamber labeled misery, spin the barrel, put the gun up to her head and pull the trigger, chances are she will be fine. My wife wasn't but she might be. My wife's parents had an unhappy marraige, but she was so much happier when her parents were married.

Even if you are at your wits end and your at a point where you just have to think about your own happiness right now, consider what I have written above or go on the internet and get all the facts. Because my father in law went out of the frying pan and into the fire.

2 out of three are ok with divorce:
1. My father in law's mistess (a 29 year old divorced alchoholic aerobics instructor who enjoyed group sex with multiple guys, and from her early years routinely sought out older men in thier mid fifties like my father in law) - she is ok with her parents divorce.
2. Sick Puppy - he is ok with his parents divorce.
3. My wife - is not ok with divorce.

Again, some Ts are like doctor Ruth and tell you every thing you do and want to do is ok, and they usually have a waiting list and charge your insurance company 90 to 110 an hour. And maybe the ones that tell you what you dont want to hear can fit you in on a days notice and drive a 1985 Dodge Caravan to the office. I am not a t and I am not here to make friends,

I am just trying to help in the long run, even if I am making you feel worse now.

My oppinion:
Me: hate me now and thank me later
Your T: like her now and hate her later

Peace
MO Healing


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#5400 - 04/15/03 04:02 PM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
A bad marriage BETTER than divorce?

Do you even realize what usually takes place in a bad marriage? Do you think that parents constantly screaming at each other, treating each other badly, maybe even abusing each other and the children will make those children happier than if their parents did not live together, but were happy with themselves?

Do you realize that if a couple that no longer loves each other stay together, they will be a role model for their children, and their children will grow up to think that it is OK to let someone abuse you and beat you down, whether verbally or physically?

I would think that as a survivor you would understand that much.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

Top
#5401 - 04/15/03 04:28 PM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Yes, that is what I am saying - "A bad marraige is better than divorce".

Prove me wrong and find statistics that back up your position, not one example, not one therapists oppinion but statistics.

Sorry to rile you up Sick Puppy, some times posts make me mad too, its part of the healing process.

Peace
MO Healing


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#5402 - 04/15/03 04:35 PM Re: Feeling better
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
I am not using what a therapist said or even a specific example. I am using common sense. How can you possibly think that it is better for a child to endure their parents constantly abusing each other, rather than their parents divorcing??

Let me point out that, very often, the most traumatic part of a divorce is the way the parents treat each other beforehand. If you ask a lot of kids of divorced parents what the worst part was, I bet they will say that the worst part was their parents fighting and not loving each other. Guess what?? In a bad marriage, that is what will go on 24/7, but it won't be STOPPED by divorce.

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

Top
#5403 - 04/15/03 08:57 PM Re: Feeling better
taipan Offline
Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 57
Loc: CT
Les, I have to say you are totally and completely WRONG. Staying in a BAD marriage is terrible roll modeling. Now, working a bad marriage into a good marriage is GREAT role modeling. But staying in a bad marriage, a bad job or any other bad situation shows a lack of self esteem.
I wish my wife would not feel the way she does, and I may never understand or agree with the reasons why she feels she must leave the marriage....but she has every right to be happy in her life.....so do you and so do I. It is up to HER to weigh the effects a divorce will have on our kids against how unhappy she is. I think in our case she is making the wrong decision! But I can not control her.
My wife watched her alcoholic dad verbally and emotionally abuse her mom. And her mom would kneel at his feet and say that SHE was sorry. This so disgusted my wife that she has NO respect for her mom. And that environment screwed her up just as much as my SA screwed me up. Her mom and dad are still together living that very very sick co dependent relationship. She cooks cleans and waits on him hand and foot, and he is mean and nasty in return. Now as I have recently learned, that no way to waste your life. Does she not deserve to be happy? My wife’s brother STILL lives at home (he is 40), HATES is father, and treats his mother just like his dad does! And even sicker than that, her mom has created her primary relationship with her son (that is not uncommon in those sort of F'ed up situations)! So staying in that bad marriage really messed up the whole family.
Stay in a bad marriage..........no way.

Now let me finish by saying in MY situation, we do not have a BAD marriage. My wife was simply tired of my refusal to address my SA issues, and was unwilling to live any longer with an emotionally unavailable person. It took the realization of losing her to finally bring me to seek therapy for my SA issues. Even then, I was doing it to win her back not to help myself. But you know what? It was the best thing that ever happened to me..........now I can finally be happy (and so can she), and now at 40 years old, I can finally start to LIVE life!! And my wife and I are completely determined to be the BEST DAM divorced parents in the world....that is what we can do for our kids. No custody battles, no more arguments….what we have vowed to do is live in close proximity and cooperate in raising healthy happy children.

So LES I agree with Sick on this one.


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#5404 - 04/15/03 09:11 PM Re: Feeling better
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Guys,

I have to add that I cannot agree that a bad marriage is better than divorce. It is totally inconcievable that you could think that children living in an explosive environment are better off than not, let alone the parents.

In my own childhood, aside from the SA, I endured extreme physical abuse from my father and was used by my mother as a mental and physical shield against him.

I begged her to divorce him and even on one occaison pushed her over the edge which caused her to then react violently to me as a teenager. I begged God to kill him or give me the strength to kill him myself. Naturally I did not have that willpower. In the end, they finally divorced after 35 years of marriage, he went back to his high school fiance (!) who he was to marry when I was conceived during a fling my father had with my mother. Take a guess who ended up as his favorite punching bag for 24 years?

Statistics can be used to prove any point that you wish. The best answer to staying in or disolving a marriage rests with two partners making rational, sane decisions both in the interests of their children and themselves. I'm personally battling this among other issues of epic proportion at the moment. However, with the help of friends here on this site and my therapist, I'm gonna do my best to make it.

Taipan, I hope you keep your positive outlook and hope that somehow I can find some of it myself .

Peace.

Jim


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#5405 - 04/15/03 11:06 PM Re: Feeling better
ecb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 205
I have to agree with SP, Taipan and Jim on this one Les. I respect your opinon, but I disagree with it.

My parents were divorced before I was a year old, so my experience here would be from a "marriage-like" situation.

When I was fourteen years old my mother allowed her boyfriend to move in with her. He was an alcoholic, emotionally abusive and I fully belive would have been physically abusive towards my mother had I not stepped in. The one time he pushed her I beat the ever-loving shit out of him with a large club and informed him in no uncertian terms that I would kill him if he ever touched her again.

He lived with my mother for nine years, and I every day I spent in that house was a complete hell comprised of the most bitter, angry, drunken fights every single night of the week (on both sides. My mother would often drink out of anger and frustration of dealing with him.) Not a day went by after I beat him that I didn't kick myself for not killing him when I had the chance.

They never actually married but they were effectively married from a day to day point of view. All I can say is if a child were living in a house that had even the tiniest fraction of that kind of distain, frustration, anger and disfunctional behavior towards one another. I could NEVER under ANY circumstances advocate any couple staying together "for the kids" because let me tell you: you aren't doing the kids ANY kind of favor.

Admittedly, this is just my two cents based on my personal expereince and what I percieve as common sense, but there it is. Apologies if I have offended, but that's how I feel.

And I do agree with Jim that statistics can be used to prove or disprove anything. It's all in how the numbers are manipulated.

Eric


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#5406 - 04/16/03 05:15 PM Re: Feeling better
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I didn't realize she was the one who wanted to get the divorce Taipan, I thought it was all your idea. In that case there might not be anything you can do to prevent it, So I wont reiterate my point, I think I already made it. I stick by it.

As far as statistics being able to be manipulated to prove any point. If that is true than there should be some out there that say the opposite of what I am saying, so if somebody who disagrees with me can show me where, you will be proving both points.

While your at it, show me one that says cigarette smoking is good for you. Everybody I know that smokes mentions like one person they know who lived to be 90 and smoked 3 packs a day as proof that it is harmless. Show me one that says you can win in Vegas. Everybody I know that gambles claims to know one person who wins every time they go.

My wife's Mom swore off remarriage, because she keeps ending up with the same person in every relationship she has had since she started dating boys. Most people I know do. Instead of being in a marriage with the same person, they have a string of relationships with basically the same person.

Divorce causes pain.
When I have pain and the only way to relieve it is to possibly cause someone else pain, I try to think of another solution.
But its your life, you are going to do what you are going to do, I'll do what I'm going to do.

Peace
MO Healing


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