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#50774 - 07/04/03 12:04 PM How do we discuss
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1223
Loc: Northern Ohio
This thread is not designed to beat up on the church, clergy, religion or any religious beliefs. So, PLEASE, do not do that here.

I want to discuss; How do we talk about what is bugging us, without doing the above.

I am concerned because the thread, "pompous and bold", turned into a "slam fest" against the church. I am guilty of contributing to that, and I want to do better.

I feel this is serious. I know that, that thread contributed to Victor contiplating leaving MS.
I don't want my internal strife to cause/contribute/lead to, the pain/suffering of another. And it would be a terrible disservice to all if someone decides to leave, or not come, because they feel threatened. Or they perceive a threat against something they hold dear.

So, how do we precede?

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#50775 - 07/04/03 12:20 PM Re: How do we discuss
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5378
Loc: Washington State
Blecken,

Very good point we all do get very involved in the threads. One thing that I think we all need to bear in mind is that, their is never one truth for a group. What I mean by that is that it is not fair or right to say that all police, T, the church, Teachers, etc are bad just because one or two abused us. It only takes one bad apple for us to think all of them are bad but their NOT!


lots of love, Nathan


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#50776 - 07/04/03 01:40 PM Re: How do we discuss
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
There are many things that each individual person holds as a passion in their lives. It is this passion that gives a body life, energy and charisma. It is this passion that takes us beyond our normal every day lives. However that passion can be like a bulldozer as well and sometimes it is hard to know where to the brakes are at.

But I am reminded time and time again on forums (I ran one for several years as well and saw similar things) that sometimes we hear or read things and they touch that little nerve synapse within us which ignites 20 thousand sticks of dynamite. And one thing I keep trying to get myself to learn is that when I respond to others, I try to do it using the words "I feel like" or "I think" or this "affects me". It is much more well received by others if it isn't "YOU should" or "YOU shouldn't" do this or that or think this way or that way. I hate it when someone talks at me instead of talks with me and I tend to listen more when someone talks with me. It sometimes is very tough to do this.

The other thing I am learning is that when the 20,000 sticks of dynamite have gone off because of what someone said or wrote, I should actually go and thank them. For they opened up a part of me that I needed to see and they gave me a gift of looking at myself in a different way than I had before that moment. Yes I know, most of the time I want to strike back at the person but in all reality, I should be saying "thank you for what you gave me".

Another thing I have learned on this great and fantastic world wide web, is that it is too easy to type a response back on the screen to someone we can not easy see on the other end. I think if we had to say some of the things face to face, we would at least stop and think about it for a moment. The internet allows fingers to engage first before the brain engages and that can be a dangerous thing. I've been guilty of this so many times and I am trying to teach myself how to get up, walk away and think about it so that I can come back later and respond in a much more enlightened way.

Just some things that I have learned around these sites as I have witnessed a couple of survivor sites (including my own) get torn apart by these very same things.

And of course, the enemy is not in here - it is out beyond these walls.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#50777 - 07/04/03 05:16 PM Re: How do we discuss
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Blacken - I share your concerns for our site because it means so much to many of us who were torn apart by our abuse. I also recognize that the issues we discuss and share here are very tender issues frought with emotion at times and sometimes tied into our very guts. In our recoveries I sense and realize emotions and sensativity are right at the surface - mine included at times. I need to recognize when I have stopped listening and my stress level takes over my reasoning with avenging my hurt...that's when I need to listen to myself and take care to keep myself safe.

Nathan - It pains me when the badapples paint all of us with a wide brush because I am/was a teacher, church worker, therapist, high school wrestling coach, community coach in basketball, soccer, baseball...etc. There are bad apples but I need to realize brothers are hurt by some of my colleagues but not me! I can gently work at showing there are bad apples but they are not like me; the paint isn't on me BUT I can't change them by my screaming, name calling, etc. If I feel my stress level rising, I need to take control of it and stop/walk away/talk it over with someone(phone-PM-etc).

Don - A phrase for those oughts and shoulds is "stop shoulding all over yourself!" Think about it! One thing I really had to struggle with was 'listening to my body'. I had an awful temper until I learned that anger/impulsivity is connected to our stress levels. If I control my stress then I can control my anger/impulses. To control my stress, I needed to listen to my body and what it tells me. (I know we survivors sometimes think we can't trust our body feelings...but if you eat, drink, go to the bathroom you all ready listen to your body daily).

Hope we all can get a grip because we all need to share our wisdom to support and encourage our recoveries. Thanks for listening!

Howard

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#50778 - 07/04/03 07:27 PM Re: How do we discuss
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Don
I couldn't agree more.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#50779 - 07/05/03 05:31 PM Re: How do we discuss
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I am sorry, it seems there is difficulty to answer that. Some, because there are always the sensitive subjects. Others, because with what maybe is 'trigger' at us, we are not so much able to read things objectively? I respond at another post here yesterday, and what I say is misstaken as something I do not mean. That will always happen, it seems, with people who have issues they work at, and are at different places in working at them. It seems there is few answers. Perhaps to not speak of it at all?? How much fairness of that? None. But there is not a thing on earth that will not be of triggering or inciting to another. Perhaps anything that has to do with religion can be marked in subject as "religion, may trigger", and then people who have difficulties being supportive and subjective of it can choose to stay away of that post. I do not really know, I am sorry Blacken, to be of so little help. Although I do not get involved in later part of postings at your "Pompous" post, I did read of them, and it seemed so far away of what the first posts were. I do not have answer.

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#50780 - 07/05/03 08:16 PM Re: How do we discuss
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1223
Loc: Northern Ohio
Leosha, Your a wise man.

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#50781 - 07/05/03 11:11 PM Re: How do we discuss
jwh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 98
Loc: dallas, tx
I want to second what MrDon said about saying "I think," "I feel," "My experience was." The point is "I" language reminds everyone, including the writer, that what someone is writing is his experience, his point of view, not any absolute statement about the church or God. Who among us has the wisdom to make such absolute statements?

Leosha and Blacken, I sympathize with your questions about how we can talk about our anger about how religion affected our abuse without triggering another survivor. I think it would be extremely unfair, even censorship, for those of us who have suffered any form of religious abuse to not be able to express it. But maybe that would help, along with "I" language: always stress that you are speaking about your own experience and always stress that you are talking about being abused, NOT making absolute statements about any church, any belief system.

We ALL need to heal, and I sympathize with both survivors who feel a need to rant about how little ideas about God have helped them AND with survivors who feel a need to feel safe about expressing how a relationship with God helps them in their recovery. I believe that we all need a higher power, and that higher power will be different for everyone, and we all need to respect that at the same time that we are all respecting each other's need to express themselves.

Okay, Jeff, off your soapbox.

_________________________
"I've been waiting for a guide to come and take me by the hand... Could these sensations make me feel the pleasures of a normal man?"--Ian Curtis, Joy Division

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#50782 - 07/06/03 03:33 PM Re: How do we discuss
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
i think one thing that may help is for each of us to try to learn to develop a little stopgap to say to someone: "what you are saying is triggering me"...

instead of reacting and posting in the heat of the reaction, i think it is a good idea to pull back and ask ourselves why we are being triggered. if someone does not respect another's trigger boundaries, then the conclusion is that it will just perpetuate, each triggering the next on top of the original wound.

if you say to someone, "you are triggering me" and they do not back off, then i think it is a clear indicator that the other person is also triggered...and you can choose to continue to fight or you yourself can back down...there is no shame in that.

everyone has a right to speak their mind. but people should not have the right to hurt one another (even unintentionally in the heat of the moment)...but until there is a system in place that can effectively handle crisis situations and diffuse them quick enough, we have to be responsible for ourselves...dealing with triggers is something we need to work on in the real world...may as well recognize this is a proving ground for doing just that as well.

i got very badly triggered in the thread in question and tried to back out of it, which only managed to set off the powder keg...i should have never engaged in the conversation to begin with, knowing i could not handle it...is it an infringement on my rights, my freedom of speech not to speak my mind on issues of the Church in order to not trigger others to such a volatile response?

no, it is called self-care.

just because i have an opinion about the Church does not mean i need to express it.

the first person who needs to respect my boundaries is me. if i disagree with someone, i can choose to engage in a mutually destructive battle to the death or i can recognize that there is no profit in arguing and do something more constructive with my time...

i believe it would be beneficial if we could all be free to express ourselves and do so in a loving manner all the time...i also know that is not something that can be enforced, nor is it something that can be expected.

i have seen forums implode and i have seen forums work like gangbusters...ultimately success depends on people keeping their heads about them...in an environment such as this, where there is a lot of pain and frustration, we all must work a little harder, is all...

i am willing...

~ rabbit


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