Ste - I wasn't angry at your post at all! Don't ever think that.. if you note, my post was only 2 minutes behind yours, and I'm not that fast at typing/thinking.

You make many very valid comments here, and I value them all!

I only get angry when someone tells me I must forgive James Fowler. I am more concerned about helping the other 3000+ people here, than I will ever be about forgiving the convicted paedophile: James Fowler!

I know that you meant 'forgive yourself', because we have both commented on similar posts in the past!

I just can't grasp this "forgive or you go to hell concept". To me, hell is a place on earth - it's a place I only live part-time now, rather than full time, like I did not so long ago!

Ste - you are one of the good guys - don't ever forget that. When you read my words here, you cannot see me speak them, but I will not ever criticise your opinions. Sometimes I am quite forthright with my own views, but it doesn't make them any more valid than the others posted above!

I also get very frustrated with the god/religion thing - it does nothing for me, but I know it means so much to others! I don't know who's right on that score (but I don't want any preaching).

Best wishes ...Rik

Steven,

I'd say that forgiveness of the person who abused you is something that should be left up to you entirely. You can ask other's opinions, even appreciate their input, but do not forgive unless it is something that you feel you need to do. No one's opinion in this matters except your own.

There have been things said on both sides of the discussion in response to your post, and there are good points made for the approach each takes. In the end however, the decision on what to do is up to you so it needs to be done for you. Not the perp, not your T, not me or Nobby or Rick or anyone else. YOU. If you need it, then do it and don't look back. If you don't need it, then don't.

The only other thing I'd add is that you may want to revisit this issue from time to time throughout your life too see if there is more work that needs to be done on the issue.

Good luck, Bro, and many hugs.

Lots of love,

John

Rik, Yeah, HELL on Earth.

No abuser escapes the hell he faces when he dies, preaching aside.
I guess God saved me on a few occaions, so guess he must want me here.

I guess in my lifetime I must have forgiven so many sins against me, you too,

ste

otherwise we go round the bend!

Steven, I'm going back into my shell now, but if my post reached you in any way I am glad. I'm with John (walkingsouth). Trust your heart. It won't steer you wrong. Your path to peace is your own and nobody can tell you what is right for you.

If you need/want to chat further, I can be reached by PM (usually...if my box full just stick a note up in the members' forum and I'll go clean it out).

Love

Nobby

every place i go i hear it;s not your fault ,then in the same breath i hear we have to forgive ourselves? if its not our fault then what do we have to forgive ourselves for? i totaly agree with rick,i have said before to forgive anything i need to understand why it was done in the first place,i have to say oh ok thats why ,there is a logical explanation for what happened and in some way i was partly to blame,there is no explanation for abuse ,there is no logical excuse for abuse. there was a member here that helped me with this issue,through this person i learned that the anger and hate do not have to eat us up ,we can direct that anger and hate into something constructive ,tracking down and exposing perps ,finding their sick web pages and blogs and forcing them off the internet,why this line of thinking is never mentioned here is a mystery to me. to me if we dont admit that we feel anger and hate for our perps we are in denial,of our own feelings .as always i can only speak for myself ,but yes i hate that bastard ,and only the fact that i am a better human being than he was keeps me from making sure he never sees another sunrise. perps can not be changed ,no amount of forgivness is gonna make them human ,if i forgive him then i'm still falling for his bullshit ,hes still in control. my forgivness is the only thing i can deny him without killing him ,i wont waste one minute trying to understand or forgive him. as for rehab for perps? nothing could be a bigger waste of time and money, tax money ,how ironic the very people that get abused are expected to pay to rehab the people that hurt them. my perp went to prison ,got therapy and counciling,got 3 meals a day and a place to sleep all paid for by people just like us ,also while he was getting help i was abandoned by a justice system that spends money on rehab ,but throws the victim into a life of hell in foster care or detention ,each night as he slept in his prison bed i wandered the streets alone and abandoned,in mortal danger ,i had no bed i had no food and i had no rehab for the destruction he caused in my life . after 7 years and who knows how many thousands of dollars spent to help him ,he got out and started screwing with me again ,he sent me copies of videos that he made of my abuse ,which in the end helped put him back in prison when he was caught having sex with a 15 year old boy. now who would have benifitted by my forgiving him ? my forgivness is not what he wanted ,my 11 year old body and soul would have been the price i paid for forgivness.as rick said flog them and hang them !!! adam

I have neaver ben able to find a way to forgive the SOB that raped me either , So you are not alone in the way that you feel

To forgive my perpetrator? I do not presume to think that such is my place or my perrogative.

I have no idea what I think of forgiveness in regard in my own recovery. I do however feel a lot of pressure from people to 'get over it', and see it from a 'higher plain.' I am sure such things are valid and perhaps on their way but they are not where I am at right now.
I agree with whoever said follow your heart.
There are times when I feel compassion for the truly fucked-up and pathetic man my father and step-father are. How broken there lives are to this day and how pathetic and infantile they are.
And then there are days when when I wake up gagging with anger, boiling in my throat and I know that it -- my anger -- needs to be seen and not swept under the rug because it might make other people unhappy. Also, this anger which at first I denied and perhaps pretended to be over, has come back to haunt me again and again as I have had no other outlet for it but myself.
Its a tough journey and I don't think there is a definite answer. I know that today I have to put myself first and not perpetuate self-abuse. I know that my father has his own path and gets the grand prize of living in his own hell (he is a visibly tortured and unhappy schizo) and I have the chance to heal myself and find peace.
I am not there yet. But I have the chance.
I get to feal and sort out my shit because I have acknowledged. I think that is where the self-forgiveness comes in. Forgiving the things we have done to survive, or the things we have done to hurt ourselves out of not knowing any better. That I can handle. That I can deserve.
Him, them . . . They can deal with themselves. Right now that is the only justice I get.
Cheers, J

I hope one of my abusers is in Hell, but I dont know for certain.
The cops never arrested anyone for it, and he could still be living, old but living.

My other abuser is my brother who mentally abused me all my life, and sent my father to an early grave.

He thinks he is number one, and thinks of only himself, he tries to just walk over anyone in his way.

Funny thing is, not many like him, even at work, yet myself and other brother are very popular.

Work it out, its not rocket science,

ste

hello men:

this is a topic i have discussed with my psychologist a bit lately. i feel like i am not ready to forgive my mother or father, like i have not gotten to that place yet. father abandoned and didnt protect me. mother incested me. i hold strong anger and hurt and distrust toward both of them, i.e. today is my father's birthday and i have no plans to contact him and i mailed him no card.

is it true that the healthiest place to be is where you have forgiven your perp(s) for all the ways they betrayed you? if it is, i just am not there yet. maybe one day i will be.

let's be kind and gentle with ourselves men. sincerely,


bec