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#49902 - 12/03/06 08:01 AM FORGIVE????????
Steven Heath Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 81
Loc: New York City
This is a question I have have for anyone who wishes to respond. I have been here for almost a year. And so many time I have heard that some of us have forgiven their abuser. That this is some level of success in healing. I doubt that I will ever forgive my abuser. He was a monster and deserves no level of "forgiveness" from me. For my healing of mental and social health. My feeling is that this is not a twelve step program we must follow to find health or Nirvana. This may sound likle it is born out of aner.....because I am angry. I sit in the chatroom and talk to others....feeling for them......loving them unconditionally because I know them and what they are feeling without ever meeting them face to face. We are damaged humans because someone with no feelings for our response to their actions......hurt us deeply. If forgiving them for their actions is part of healing....please someone explain this concept to me.


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#49903 - 12/03/06 11:59 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
If you dont forgive you suffer more than you do if you do forgive.

Forgive yourself,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49904 - 12/03/06 01:40 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Steve, much of how a person is able to forgive his perp depends on how it effected him as a victim.

I'm not ready to elaborate (in depth) about how it effected me except to say that I saw that dark side that he (my perp) embraced, and I did not. I was there, I was at one of those moments, a moment that was exactly just like the one he made when he victimized me so long ago now. I know exactly why he did it so it's much easier for me to forgive something that I comprehend.

Also, my perp was a manipulator, not the monsterously evil, threatening type of perp. Hence, I don't have the nightmares, the flashbacks, the shakes, the panick atacks, etc., which are common traits here. If I had to deal with THOSE kinds of effects of CSA, I would not so readily forgive him.

Another thing to consider before forgiving a perp is this: Don't forgive until you realize just how bad he hurt you. It IS possible to forgive to soon.

And I just thought of this in closing: Just becuase you forgive him doesn't mean that you have to like him, it means that you're trying to have love in your heart instead of hate. Hate is a very heavy thing for me to carry around, I dropped that a long time ago.


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#49905 - 12/03/06 05:17 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3390
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Steven,

you do not forgive the abuser for their benefit (what they done to you was extemely wrong - they deserve no forgiveness for their benefit) - you do it only for your benefit - forgiveness is not about the abuser - it is about you... - to release yourself of some of the anger/fear/guilt/shame/embarrassment/ect... - the release of the deep feelings that we been carrying within us for so long - feelings that have robbed us of so much in life...

my abusers want no level of forgiveness from me - they have made that perfectly clear... - my trying to forgive them is something that I only do for myself - not for them...

as Hauser said - carrying hate around with us for so many years has wasted so much energy that we could use for other (better) things in life...

I do hope that you are able to forgive - but it has to be something you do for YOU - and you need to do it when you feel ready to - and forgiveness is not even something that happens instantly when we are ready - it does take time...

Take good care of yourself,

TJ jeff

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#49906 - 12/03/06 07:14 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Steve...I am on hiatus from the Discussion Board, but I've attached a post that I wrote on forgiveness a while ago. I hope it helps you with your struggle.

Take care,

Nobby
--------------------

Forgiveness

Forgiveness is accepting the fact that your perp is human. Simple as that. To do otherwise is selfish and will lead to hate. Hate leads to self-destruction. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but this is what I believe to be the truth.

Let me ask these questions; if you ever got the opportunity to take revenge on your perp and you did something to harm him, what would you become? Do you think the police would be justified for arresting you for assault (which they would surely do) and a judge for having you sentenced? Do you think that taking revenge would in any way change what was done to you?

I get frustrated with this mentality that perps "owe" us something. They don't owe us anything. They chose an evil path, and we were their victims, but that's where it ends. All matters of justice are for the courts to determine. Our perps' salvation is a matter between them and God. There may be some reparation due to us for damages, but again, that is a matter for the courts. There is simply no debt that must be discharged between our perps and ourselves.

Now, for those of you who are still with me and not furiously writing me a nasty email or reply to this post, here is the truth of the matter. Perps are human beings, and human beings are prone to failure and making mistakes. Some fail in terrible ways and do great evil, such as raping children.

I know how deeply it hurts to be betrayed, believe me, I know. I was raped by a man who held me as a newborn. But what you simply have to accept, before you will truly heal, is that your perp was innocent once, and he has the potential to be rehabilitated back to normal life. The administrators of this site will tell you many stories of perps who have been rehabilitated. By not forgiving them, we are refusing to accept that our perps can be redeemed. Now I'm not saying that it is our responsibility to heal our perps; what I'm saying is that our forgiveness has nothing to do with our perps. Forgiveness is accepting that they are human, just like everyone else. It is accepting that people can fail, and do evil things, and it is also accepting that they can be brought back to good.

I have forgiven my perp. This does not mean that I will stop working with the police to have him brought to justice, nor does it mean that I will ever go out for beers with him. What it does mean is that I accept that he is human. He will answer for his crimes, but that is a matter between him and the Courts. He may decide that he has done horrible things and he needs help, and he can go hire a therapist for that. By forgiving him, I am healing myself from the only true damage that my perp did to me; that is I am finally understanding and accepting what it means to be human.

Please take care and understand that this post was written out of love, and that I am not trying to hurt any of you. I just wanted to share my healing experience with you, in the hopes that some of you might be able to find something in it that helps with your own healing.

Love

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49907 - 12/03/06 08:00 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Steven Heath Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 81
Loc: New York City
Thanks for all of you thoughts guys. It causes me to pause my anger and think. That is all I can do for now. But a pause in the anger is like a vacation.
Thanks again,
Steve


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#49908 - 12/03/06 09:52 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
onefastbike Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 84
Loc: Toronto
I find it hard to express what I feel about forgivness.
I am conflicted about it.

I would suggest reading "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu

I think it would give you some insight in to health ways to think and feel about your enemies.

_________________________
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

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#49909 - 12/03/06 10:28 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Who? Walks around with constant guilt.
I do, you do.

Whose life is in total despair, ours not theirs.

I could probably post 50 lines and not stop, but dont let their hurt turn to anger in you.
Forgive = one thing, and that is, dont blame yourself.

You have to move on from the constant inner battle at something you cannot get to.
Bit like scratching a sore, you could never reach, your mind!

That is forgiveness to me, to know that they will get their own judgement one day, and pay for it another,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49910 - 12/03/06 10:30 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Steven - if anyone that has been groomed / attacked /abused by a paedophile wishes to waste energy on forgiving them, that is their choice.

It is however not mine and never will be!

I appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter, and I take no offence at those stated above.

If I said that I forgave the paedophile that has screwed up so much of my life, it would be a total lie. I don't believe that I will suffer more by not forgiving - I much prefer to forgive myself, because I am worth it, he is not!

Why should I forgive someone who I took to court earlier this year for events that took place in 1969. Why should I forgive someone that when confonted by the police with my complaints in 2004, denied those complaints? Why should I forgive someone that first groomed and abused me in 1969, then perpetuated that abuse in 2004 by refusing to admit his crimes? Why should I forgive someone who made me wait another 17 months before achieving a poor substitute for justice in the courts? Why should I forgive someone who groomed and abused others both before and after myself? Why should I forgive someone who was still showing signs of the same behaviour 35 years after he abused me?

Forgive him? No way in hell! I'd much rather spend my time and energy supporting others that require it?

I am waiting for the day that the bastard dies - I will go to his funeral just to make sure he is dead! I will tell anyone that asks me why I am there.

I don't carry hate around with me all the time - I'm not some fermenting pit of sulphorous revenge. If the paedophile that abused me is human??? Why did he show myself and many others no humanity? I understand that some will wish to forgive an abuser, but a mistake is 'a one off situation' that you learn from! Like when you are a child, and you get stung by a nettle - you don't go looking for more nettles to sting you again. If a paedophile abuses only once, and realises that what they did is wrong and seeks atonement for that act, then maybe it is forgiveable! If a paedophile has a 'modus operandi', and sytematically grooms / abuses / attacks children. then it is not forgiveness they deserve. I believe that they have stolen the lives of many children, and should subsequently be denied the right to a life themselves!

So sorry, I am from the flog them and hang them brigade! I make no apology for that!

By the way - the courts do not deliver 'real justice' in the UK. They are too politically correct at the moment, and certainly have little understanding of the damage done by paedophiles!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49911 - 12/03/06 10:48 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Rick, please dont get angry at my post, it was not meant to hurt.
If you read it properly, it says forgive yourself!

I think I had the same reaction to the topic heading.

Right?,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49912 - 12/03/06 11:03 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Ste - I wasn't angry at your post at all! Don't ever think that.. if you note, my post was only 2 minutes behind yours, and I'm not that fast at typing/thinking.

You make many very valid comments here, and I value them all!

I only get angry when someone tells me I must forgive James Fowler. I am more concerned about helping the other 3000+ people here, than I will ever be about forgiving the convicted paedophile: James Fowler!

I know that you meant 'forgive yourself', because we have both commented on similar posts in the past!

I just can't grasp this "forgive or you go to hell concept". To me, hell is a place on earth - it's a place I only live part-time now, rather than full time, like I did not so long ago!

Ste - you are one of the good guys - don't ever forget that. When you read my words here, you cannot see me speak them, but I will not ever criticise your opinions. Sometimes I am quite forthright with my own views, but it doesn't make them any more valid than the others posted above!

I also get very frustrated with the god/religion thing - it does nothing for me, but I know it means so much to others! I don't know who's right on that score (but I don't want any preaching).

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49913 - 12/03/06 11:08 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Steven,

I'd say that forgiveness of the person who abused you is something that should be left up to you entirely. You can ask other's opinions, even appreciate their input, but do not forgive unless it is something that you feel you need to do. No one's opinion in this matters except your own.

There have been things said on both sides of the discussion in response to your post, and there are good points made for the approach each takes. In the end however, the decision on what to do is up to you so it needs to be done for you. Not the perp, not your T, not me or Nobby or Rick or anyone else. YOU. If you need it, then do it and don't look back. If you don't need it, then don't.

The only other thing I'd add is that you may want to revisit this issue from time to time throughout your life too see if there is more work that needs to be done on the issue.

Good luck, Bro, and many hugs.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49914 - 12/03/06 11:20 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Rik, Yeah, HELL on Earth.

No abuser escapes the hell he faces when he dies, preaching aside.
I guess God saved me on a few occaions, so guess he must want me here.

I guess in my lifetime I must have forgiven so many sins against me, you too,

ste

otherwise we go round the bend!

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49915 - 12/04/06 12:41 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Steven, I'm going back into my shell now, but if my post reached you in any way I am glad. I'm with John (walkingsouth). Trust your heart. It won't steer you wrong. Your path to peace is your own and nobody can tell you what is right for you.

If you need/want to chat further, I can be reached by PM (usually...if my box full just stick a note up in the members' forum and I'll go clean it out).

Love

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49916 - 12/04/06 01:08 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
every place i go i hear it;s not your fault ,then in the same breath i hear we have to forgive ourselves? if its not our fault then what do we have to forgive ourselves for? i totaly agree with rick,i have said before to forgive anything i need to understand why it was done in the first place,i have to say oh ok thats why ,there is a logical explanation for what happened and in some way i was partly to blame,there is no explanation for abuse ,there is no logical excuse for abuse. there was a member here that helped me with this issue,through this person i learned that the anger and hate do not have to eat us up ,we can direct that anger and hate into something constructive ,tracking down and exposing perps ,finding their sick web pages and blogs and forcing them off the internet,why this line of thinking is never mentioned here is a mystery to me. to me if we dont admit that we feel anger and hate for our perps we are in denial,of our own feelings .as always i can only speak for myself ,but yes i hate that bastard ,and only the fact that i am a better human being than he was keeps me from making sure he never sees another sunrise. perps can not be changed ,no amount of forgivness is gonna make them human ,if i forgive him then i'm still falling for his bullshit ,hes still in control. my forgivness is the only thing i can deny him without killing him ,i wont waste one minute trying to understand or forgive him. as for rehab for perps? nothing could be a bigger waste of time and money, tax money ,how ironic the very people that get abused are expected to pay to rehab the people that hurt them. my perp went to prison ,got therapy and counciling,got 3 meals a day and a place to sleep all paid for by people just like us ,also while he was getting help i was abandoned by a justice system that spends money on rehab ,but throws the victim into a life of hell in foster care or detention ,each night as he slept in his prison bed i wandered the streets alone and abandoned,in mortal danger ,i had no bed i had no food and i had no rehab for the destruction he caused in my life . after 7 years and who knows how many thousands of dollars spent to help him ,he got out and started screwing with me again ,he sent me copies of videos that he made of my abuse ,which in the end helped put him back in prison when he was caught having sex with a 15 year old boy. now who would have benifitted by my forgiving him ? my forgivness is not what he wanted ,my 11 year old body and soul would have been the price i paid for forgivness.as rick said flog them and hang them !!! adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49917 - 12/04/06 05:11 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
OKIE MIKE Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 982
Loc: HULBERT OK
I have neaver ben able to find a way to forgive the SOB that raped me either , So you are not alone in the way that you feel

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

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#49918 - 12/04/06 06:13 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
To forgive my perpetrator? I do not presume to think that such is my place or my perrogative.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49919 - 12/04/06 06:29 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Jonathon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 74
Loc: New York
I have no idea what I think of forgiveness in regard in my own recovery. I do however feel a lot of pressure from people to 'get over it', and see it from a 'higher plain.' I am sure such things are valid and perhaps on their way but they are not where I am at right now.
I agree with whoever said follow your heart.
There are times when I feel compassion for the truly fucked-up and pathetic man my father and step-father are. How broken there lives are to this day and how pathetic and infantile they are.
And then there are days when when I wake up gagging with anger, boiling in my throat and I know that it -- my anger -- needs to be seen and not swept under the rug because it might make other people unhappy. Also, this anger which at first I denied and perhaps pretended to be over, has come back to haunt me again and again as I have had no other outlet for it but myself.
Its a tough journey and I don't think there is a definite answer. I know that today I have to put myself first and not perpetuate self-abuse. I know that my father has his own path and gets the grand prize of living in his own hell (he is a visibly tortured and unhappy schizo) and I have the chance to heal myself and find peace.
I am not there yet. But I have the chance.
I get to feal and sort out my shit because I have acknowledged. I think that is where the self-forgiveness comes in. Forgiving the things we have done to survive, or the things we have done to hurt ourselves out of not knowing any better. That I can handle. That I can deserve.
Him, them . . . They can deal with themselves. Right now that is the only justice I get.
Cheers, J


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#49920 - 12/04/06 07:04 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I hope one of my abusers is in Hell, but I dont know for certain.
The cops never arrested anyone for it, and he could still be living, old but living.

My other abuser is my brother who mentally abused me all my life, and sent my father to an early grave.

He thinks he is number one, and thinks of only himself, he tries to just walk over anyone in his way.

Funny thing is, not many like him, even at work, yet myself and other brother are very popular.

Work it out, its not rocket science,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49921 - 12/04/06 10:49 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
bec Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/02
Posts: 187
Loc: chicagoland area
hello men:

this is a topic i have discussed with my psychologist a bit lately. i feel like i am not ready to forgive my mother or father, like i have not gotten to that place yet. father abandoned and didnt protect me. mother incested me. i hold strong anger and hurt and distrust toward both of them, i.e. today is my father's birthday and i have no plans to contact him and i mailed him no card.

is it true that the healthiest place to be is where you have forgiven your perp(s) for all the ways they betrayed you? if it is, i just am not there yet. maybe one day i will be.

let's be kind and gentle with ourselves men. sincerely,


bec


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#49922 - 12/05/06 01:04 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by bec:
is it true that the healthiest place to be is where you have forgiven your perp(s) for all the ways they betrayed you?
yes

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49923 - 12/05/06 03:00 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
This topic comes up every few months, and every time it does the temperature starts rising in the thread to the point where at times there's been angry words flying back and forth.

What's up with that guys? I know what I think about it, but I sure am not going to get angry at my brothers here who feel differently on the subject.

Each of us are in a different place on the road of recovery and some of our roads will never be the same as the other guy's.

Actually, this time around it's been rather mild. Let's keep it that way guys! Let's discuss this topic, share our ideas on it with the idea of providing food for thought for those who are questioning themselves regarding forgiveness. Let's not let it make us angry at our brother.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49924 - 12/05/06 12:09 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
I dont have to forgive myself as I did nothing wrong, as far as my abusers are concerned there is no forgiveness, its my anger and the positive things I do with it that keeps me going.....note I said positive things and in a lot of ways it was my anger that kept me alive.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#49925 - 12/05/06 07:44 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirk Wayne:
its my anger and the positive things I do with it that keeps me going.....note I said positive things and in a lot of ways it was my anger that kept me alive.
With all due respect, I can't think of any way that anger can generate something positive, but if you have achieved something positive with your anger, then I invite you to please share it. I may be wrong.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49926 - 12/05/06 08:00 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Koveri Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Dallas, TX
There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'. WHen we see injustice or oppression, it should make us angry and move us to respond to change things. My problem is that I see injustice and oppression and I want to run away and put my head in the sand. This is where I SHOULD be angry and am not.


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#49927 - 12/06/06 01:25 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Koveri:
There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'.
Certainly. Someone who is truly righteous has every right to use anger. However, I challenge you to find a truly righteous person. Righteousness implies perfect judgement, and I'm pretty sure that there is nobody on this planet who is capable of perfect judgement.

Since we are neither righteous nor perfect, what right, then, do we have to be angry? "Righteous" anger implies a judgment; that you become angry with another person because they have failed you, or done wrong to you, according to your standards of judgement. Fine.

The problem is, nobody is perfect, and for sure you, and me, and everyone else on earth, have either failed someone else or done wrong to someone else. Are those other people entitled to be angry at us for failing them or wronging them? If they are, and they act on their anger and hurt us, what has been gained? How does such a system of retribution and revenge create anything other than further conflict and hatred?

So I'll repeat my question. Someone, please illustrate to me a completely positive change that has come from someone acting in anger. Who among you has found peace by taking their anger out on another person?

Peace.

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49928 - 12/06/06 07:37 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Kirk,

I'm gonna agree with you on this one. I suppose my agreement is colored by my own interpretation, but here's how I see it.

My anger really did keep me going. Perhaps it even kept me alive long enough to begin the recovery process. Now I'm faced with putting new perspective on the issue of anger and it's place in my life. Not sure I've got that all ironed out yet, but I'm working on it.

Thanks for your post. It's given me food for thought.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49929 - 12/06/06 07:37 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Forgiveness is supposed to be an act of grace - you willfully give up a claim to something for the sake of the greater good, or peace, or closure. How can anybody "willfully give up" something that they can never possibly receive anyway? The concept is without meaning. What was taken from me cannot be given back, nor is there some "equivalent" that could serve as compensation. In order to "forgive" my perpetrators, I would have to pretend they owe me something in the first place.

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#49930 - 12/06/06 12:51 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Kirk Wayne Offline
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Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Nobbynobs

It is all to do with attitude and focusing, in the past my anger was a very self destructive force when angered I would invaribly end up drinking and wrecking havoc on those about me or I would self harm, today after a lot of hard work in anger management courses I have re-channeled my anger into doing something positive within the survivors community by that I mean getting involved in politics as that is the only way things are going to change by making those who weald the power aware of the damage CSA can do to the individual and therfore society in general, by nature I am a bone idle sod and it is my positive anger that helps me get up in the morning to try and instigate some change,you could also use the word determination in the same breath as anger ...... of seeing things through to the end regardless of what people think or do and there are plenty out there that will try to stop us from changing things, espcially thhose who are known as the OSC (the Online Sex Offender Community).

Hope this goes some way to answering your query.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#49931 - 12/06/06 01:54 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Thanks Kirk, yes we dont forgive, we forgive ourselves before we totally destroy ourselves.

Ive shook off a lot of the 24/7 guilt trip and anger trail by finding positives.
I still lapse at times, but tend to get back again.

I am a load stronger because of my past, even though I would just rather not be.
Dont ever forget the power of your own minds in overcoming this shit,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49932 - 12/06/06 04:01 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirk Wayne:
I have re-channeled my anger into doing something positive within the survivors community by that I mean getting involved in politics as that is the only way things are going to change by making those who weald the power aware of the damage CSA can do to the individual and therfore society in general,
Granted. And I think that's a positive thing. More comments on this below.

Quote:
by nature I am a bone idle sod and it is my positive anger that helps me get up in the morning to try and instigate some change,you could also use the word determination in the same breath as anger .....
I would never use the word determination in the same breath as anger, however, I think the word "steadfastness" is a better de>
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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

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#49933 - 12/06/06 04:30 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Kirk Wayne Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Nobby

Good post.

What gives me the most satisfaction?

Easily answered hearing you say that you now have hope obviously. I have to say you have me stumped on the last paragraph nobby especially the "why do you need your hate and anger".

Maybe i am still distancing myself from people by saying that I am angry in as much as "dont get to close or I'm gonna hurt you" maybe I am just scared of dropping the shield completely. I really dont know...

Regards

Kirk
"Lerts grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#49934 - 12/06/06 05:09 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I've been there, my friend.

Search your heart. I think you will find the answer there.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49935 - 12/07/06 09:36 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
VN Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 723
I have two close survivor friends. One, he have four different abusers, and he forgive 2 of them. Other, he have abuse in family and out of it, and not forgived anyone. I respect them both equal. The one who have not forgive, he is not at all less then the other person, and he is not 'angry' or 'hating' person. But he is not going to go to his parents, or the other person who abuse him, and say, 'oh, it is ok, I am over it'. That is nothing negative against him, in my thoughts.

I had also abuse in my family, and outside of it. One my abusers, he is just monster. He is in prison, he murdered several other boys in very bad ways. I have not forgive him, I have not forgive my parents. To me, in how I think, for me to forgive them, I must understand why it is they done such things to me. Never I can understand that, and so I think, never I can forgive it. I am not person of hate and anger. My life is not further damage just because of my choice. And that, it is what it is, it is now my choice.

VN


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#49936 - 12/07/06 03:55 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
great post visha ,its good to see you and i agree with you totaly adam

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when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49938 - 12/07/06 05:48 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Zipser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 351
Loc: Connecticut
Steven,

Very provocative subject so thanks for posting. I first read this a couple of days ago and thought about how to respond. It's taken awhile but here's where I am on the subject.

I have not found it necessary to forgive the man who sexually abused me. While I do have a written apology (filtered first by his lawyer as part of the out of court settlement) he never asked forgiveness and even if he did I don't think I would grant it. Honestly, I have not spent much time thinking about the subject, even in the quiet moments.

As for forgiving myself I've found that that, too, has not been necessary. I did nothing wrong all those (40) years ago and I view myself as nothing other than a victim of a sexual predator.

What I'm finding as I peel back the layers of who I am is behaviors and attitudes that can be tied back to my going into survival mode when the abuse began. Example? Today I'm not very assertive and in the business world that has been a hinderance. Like most victims I withdrew into myself and did not want to be noticed or recognized for fear that someone would "know" by looking at me. I'm working on changing that.

Each of us is on a path to recovery that must be traveled alone. I've found tremendous support from everyone here and for that I'm eternally grateful but when it comes right down to it the steps we take are our own.

Just one man's opinion. Thanks to all who have responded. Good topic.

Regards,

Paul

_________________________
"I stand proud that the boy so badly damaged managed to get me this far and I will honor him and myself for being a survivor." - A member

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#49939 - 12/07/06 08:16 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by jacobtk:
[QUOTE] Some things cannot be forgiven.
Why not?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49941 - 12/08/06 12:47 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by jacobtk:
Quote:
Why not?
Honestly, I do not know. Sometimes things hurt too much and there just is no way to get past that.
Jacob where is your signature from? Seems to me that the answer is there. Overcoming pain is sometimes as simple (note I don't say easy) as identifying and understanding the cause and then taking steps to reduce the pain. Not easy, but possible, with determination. For me, the key was forgiveness.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49943 - 12/08/06 01:45 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by jacobtk:
But if he does not feel he needs to and if the hurt that was caused is too great, then forgiveness does not make sense and it may do more harm than good.
I'm trying to work through this line. Are you saying that it's possible to forgive too soon? I would definitely agree. Forgiveness is a part of healing, but it definitely has its place and time. Forgiving too early may lead the victim into self-blame, which is not a positive step in healing. However, there will be a time during healing when I feel that forgiveness makes complete sense. It's an individual thing, not a blanket "ok, it's been 3 months, now you must forgive" thing. IT comes in its own time.


Quote:
I mean, it is for our benefit, so if it does not benefit us why do it?
Because forgiving allows you to do two things: 1) it helps survivors put their abuse into the larger context of life, and 2) it helps survivors come to terms with their own need to be forgiven. It's as I said earlier. We have all hurt other people, and in order to get on with life, we need to make peace with the people we have hurt, i.e., we need to ask them for their forgiveness.

Forgiveness comes naturally to children. It is only by being hurt that they begin to stop forgiving others. It is a natural human trait. By forgiving, you release yourself to begin coming to terms with your own actions and any wrongs you may have done others. It restores love and harmony to human relationships. And the reason why I found forgiving my perp to be so liberating, and such an integral part of my healing, is because it has freed me to begin to make peace with the people I have hurt. How can I ask those people to forgive me, if I myself have not forgiven others?

I think you will find that forgiveness makes perfect sense, if you think of it in terms of the greater good. But it has to happen in its own time, when the survivor is ready. Its like I said to Kirk, do you feel better bringing hope, or causing pain? And if forgiveness brings hope to the world, then what use is hate and anger, which only destroys hope?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49944 - 12/08/06 02:35 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
OKIE MIKE Offline
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Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 982
Loc: HULBERT OK
It will be a cold day in Hell the day that I forgive the SOB that raped me .
There is a place reserved in Hell for people that do thease terrable things.

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MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

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#49945 - 12/08/06 04:13 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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what i do when this subject comes up is go to the my story forum and go back and read as many of them as i can stand ,if you can do that and still think of forgiving ,every post of despair and desperation on this site tell me that no perp deserves forgivness,i'll ask my question one more time if its not my fault ,if everything i have been and done since my abuse was a direct effect of that abuse then what the hell do i have to forgive myself for? there is a huge difference between forgiving something like abuse and forgiving some petty wrong i might have done in my life!!!yeah maybe i stold food from a store to eat ,wrong ?yes but how the hell does that compare to abusing a child!? saying we have to forgive is not right ,every person has to make their own choice and one shows strength ,and just maybe the other shows weakness its up to us to decide which is which . another post kind of refers to this subject but i see a different response ,the post about johnathon king ,every response says its a great thing hes been shut down on myspace and will be arrested sooner or later for things he has done ,when that happens should we forgive him ? then why bust them at all ? so we can spend a million dollars giving him the help he needs while in prison while his victims starve because they cant function in society?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49946 - 12/08/06 04:27 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
I hear you there Shadow and Mike!!

Nobs? Are you saying that we're OBLIGATED to forgive even if they don't want it?

Another point: I HAVE forgiven my perps and I STILL don't feel any better about myself. What's THAT all about? Seriously, I have forgiven them, I don't want to carry hate in my heart, but I STILL don't feel "healed" or "better". It's frustrating to hear others say "Wow I wish I was so far along in healing that I could forgive like you have". But, it has not done me any good thus far.

So.........I find myself kind of asking Jacob's question myself. "I mean, it is for our benefit, so if it does not benefit us why do it?"


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#49947 - 12/08/06 05:52 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Hauser:
Nobs? Are you saying that we're OBLIGATED to forgive even if they don't want it?
No, I'm not saying that at all. Forgiveness is a choice. I personally believe that it is the right choice, and that is all I have said.

Quote:
Another point: I HAVE forgiven my perps and I STILL don't feel any better about myself. What's THAT all about? Seriously, I have forgiven them, I don't want to carry hate in my heart, but I STILL don't feel "healed" or "better". It's frustrating to hear others say "Wow I wish I was so far along in healing that I could forgive like you have". But, it has not done me any good thus far.
If you have truly forgiven your perps, then that is a major step. Your statement says it all. When I read "I don't want to carry hate in my heart," I get a great feeling inside, because getting rid of hate is the beginning of learning to love.

Hauser, one thing I have noticed is that you are very hard on yourself, and perhaps that is why you don't feel you are making progress. The only thing I can recommend (because we have never met and I don't know you well enough to give you specific advice) is that you use the same logic you used to forgive your perps; "I don't want to carry hate in my heart," to learn to stop hating yourself. I honestly think you are 3/4 of the way there already, so maybe that statement is the key.

Quote:
So.........I find myself kind of asking Jacob's question myself. "I mean, it is for our benefit, so if it does not benefit us why do it?"
Well, I would argue that you are benefiting because you are freeing your heart from hatred. Maybe it is a matter of time before you see the other benefits within your healing process. Or maybe its like I said before; you are well on the way in your healing, but you need to go a little easier on yourself so you can see the positive changes. At any rate I am very happy to hear that you have forgiven your perps. It is a very courageous thing to do and I salute you.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49948 - 12/08/06 08:53 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Wornoutsoul Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 59
Loc: Europe
Forgive?? Give me back my childhood and I will forgive.

FAIR??

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Here to help and inspire.....

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#49949 - 12/08/06 02:59 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
It would be nice if I FELT BETTER about forgiving them, and t's been quite a long time since I've done it too.


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#49950 - 12/08/06 05:13 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Steven Heath Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 81
Loc: New York City
Wornoutsoul,
I think that is almost an equitable offer. But, I would want a good share of my adulthood back as well.
Steve


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#49951 - 12/10/06 10:45 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
The statement: "Some things cannot be forgiven." receives the response: "Why not?" The statement also illicits the response: "That we all hurt others."

Well OK, I believe that in my lifetime I will have hurt others in some way! What I do not do, is repeatedly hurt others without any real justification for my actions! I certainly have never been in a position where I set out to systematically hurt other members of society! I will never be in a position whereby I would systematically hurt /groom / abuse the most vulnerable and precious members of our society - INNOCENT CHILDREN!

As I stated above, the perp that groomed and abused me, used others both before and after me for his own gratification!

I finally externalised my anger in 2004 (abused in 1969), directing it back towards the perp (a very positive use of anger). The positive result of that anger is that a conviction was achieved and the perp had 'his toys' taken away from him for good in March of this year (good being life). I was 12 when I was abused (he was 32) - I believe that on March 17th 2007, a part of me will finally reach it's 13th birthday - 36 years too late. The court case ended his 40+ years 'career'. If he decides to start 'playing with his toys' again, he goes straight to jail. Is a 40+ years career of abusing children really forgiveable????

Is the implication that I should have said, "OK, JF what you did to me and numerous others had no real impact upon our lives. We are all now absolutely well balanced individuals thanks to everything that you did for us. If it hadn't been for your actions, we would never have made it this far, to be such well rounded adults. I really hope that you abused many more people than I actually believed you did, because they will have benefited immensely from the experience."

That would be absolute bollocks - he deserves every bit of pain that he feels, and I'm sure that he does not feel enough! It is my firm belief that if he had not been stopped, he would still be up to his old tricks.

When I mention forgiving myself (earlier post), what I mean is that for years I blamed myself for allowing it to happen! I was an intelligent (if naive) kid - how did I fall into his trap? That is why I say I forgive myself!

I previously stated that my energies are better spent supporting those who need it, rather than on forgiving paedophiles.

I am currently supporting a friend who has been diagnosed with a tumour, and who will shortly be having an operation to improve matters. I am also supporting a friend who is in the early stages of preparing to take a stepfather to court for paedophile activities (multiple abuse of several members/generations of the same family). These are the people that deserve my energy!

JF can go rot in the hell of his own making! Forgive him? I wished that years ago I had realised what he was doing was wrong! I may have had the opportunity to push him off one of the railway bridges where he abused me, as a train was passing underneath! I think the courts would have understood that one!

Forgive? NO, NO, NO - NEVER.

Best wishes...Rik

What has been taken is far to precious, and cannot be given back! It is far too precious to have a price!

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49952 - 12/11/06 01:48 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
What has been taken, and why can't it be given back?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49953 - 12/11/06 02:12 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
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Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Surely that is a rhetorical question!?

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49954 - 12/11/06 02:15 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
innocence ? wonder? faith? the ability to trust? the look in a kids eyes when he sees a rainbow ,the feeling in his heart when he is accepted ,but yes we did get something in return so maybe the perps are not so selfish, we got shame, guilt ,despair ,depression ,panic attacks ,ptsd. confusion ,betrayl, should i go on ? what was taken was our chance to grow and develop normaly ,which is essential to function in society, they call it abuse but lets be serious k? its murder,because a wonderfull innocent human being ceased to exist , oh yeah maybe we survived ,but can you honestly say that the survivor is the same person that went into hell ?the first time my perp hit me an 11 year old boy died ,it was like i aged one year every time he hit me ,i went into hell a kid,i came out an old man ,tell me please how i can get that back?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49955 - 12/12/06 01:02 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Thomson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 30
This would be my first post on this forum.

I have never shared my story with anyone else, nor feel like i would be doing it in real life anytime soon.

For me there is nothing but hate for the perp. who ruined my life. It might be possible for me to overcome this anger, but whenever i think about how my innocence was taken from me, i could feel nothing but utter rage.

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There is enough light for one to see the truth.

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#49956 - 12/12/06 03:04 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Thomson:
This would be my first post on this forum.

I have never shared my story with anyone else, nor feel like i would be doing it in real life anytime soon.

For me there is nothing but hate for the perp. who ruined my life. It might be possible for me to overcome this anger, but whenever i think about how my innocence was taken from me, i could feel nothing but utter rage.
Hi Thomson and welcome. In your sig you write "There is enough light for one to see the truth."

That is definitely true about Malesurvivor. There is a lot of light here, and also a lot of darkness.

Forgiveness is a stage. Some would argue it's a stage of recovery, but I don't see it that way. I see it as a stage in becoming truly alive. You may not be there yet, but that's ok, everyone is on their own path. Coming here was a step in the right direction on that path.

I'll give you the Malesurvivor greeting: I am glad to see you here, but I grieve what brought you here.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49957 - 12/12/06 09:07 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
how do i get it back?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49958 - 12/12/06 09:52 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Why? Cant we get it right!
Figure it out, you are all using the blame
and guilt tactics on yourselves.

Anger, get yr own back, guilt, depression,
all theirs not ours to carry around.
When you harbor thoughts like this, you
are letting it eat at you.

Pain! What is that?
I can stand pain but not hurt.
Hurt is so different, in that it makes you feel
different from all around you, and it is the progression of guilt and anger eating at your souls.

I have been guilty and wracked with anger and hurt since 10yo, so I need a break to find the little me.

You all do, and as for the perps, they will all suffer one day, believe me,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49959 - 12/12/06 10:30 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Would anyone tell a vegetarian that they would never be truly alive unless they ate meat?

I hope the answer is no!

It's the same for me and paedophiles - I don't need to forgive them to feel 'really alive'.

I've got to say that anyone that is overly concerned with forgiving paedophiles, just seems like an apologist for them. Forgiving them is the lowest priority on 'my things that I want to do with my life' list!

The only time I seem to get angry about a specific paedophile now, is when others tell me that I will not be happy until I forgive him! I've taken him to court, I've actually confronted him face to face! I know how he ticks. I know that he is frightened of me now! I know that he still wants to play with little boys penises! If anyone here thinks that's OK, I think they're in the wrong place!

When a paedophile is confronted with his crimes, and actually stands up and says: "yes I did it and I accept all responsibility for my actions, please lock me up and throw away the key, because if you don't I will continue to offend." Maybe then I might be able to head somewhere down the path of recognising that person as someone who mught deserve some forgiveness! What percentage of paedophiles actually stand up and say yes I did it! It wouldn't even register on a graph!

I can forgive someone that robs me because they are starving. I can forgive people that make stupid comments on the spur of the moment. Grooming,abusive paedophiles ...NO!

Sometimes, it is the light that is dark, and the dark that is light!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49960 - 12/12/06 10:48 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Rik, you can believe me or not, but he would not even look at me faceways.
All I ask is that you forgive yourself not them.

My perps(s), I dont know if they still are living or dead, but I dont give a fuck, they are dead in my mind.

I met a perp in the high st today, and he flipped when he saw me, and was obviously carrying a load of hurt, placed upon him.

Not my perp, but he is one, and he knows that I know, but I only had to make eye contact and he totally just wanted out.

You have been let down by society and law, not us, so please read between the lines, and not go off on a tangent,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49961 - 12/12/06 11:36 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
somebody please tell me what we need to forgive ourselves for? abuse is someting we all have in common many of the effects are the same ,yet each case affects each victim differently ,its a very individual thing ,as is forgivness,you can no more say i have to forgive than you can say i have to believe in god ,not forgiving is a choice not a punishment . i consider my forgivness a gift and i aint giving any gifts to animals this year. if i forgive the perp then whos really to blame?god maybe? but no we have free will,so we cant blame god ,well i guess maybe its just shit happens huh? one thing thats great about this place we can disagree about stuff but still be friends ,each opinon has its own merits for the person expressing it ,i dont think you guys are wrong to forgive ,please dont think we are wrong if we dont ,its just that we make different choices and for each of us only we can decide if the choice is good or bad. the text books say forgive ,but then we all know the books dont apply to each individual situtation do they? for MEand only me forgiving is giving in ,letting go of my anger is giving in ,as long as im angry then im still alive and still fighting . i deserve to be angry ,much more angry than i really am ,if i forgive him then its the same as saying he did nothing wrong ,that the abuse wasnt that bad ,i think that not being angry and forgiving is not healing its denial something we tend to do a LOT ,MAYBE THE GUYS THAT ARE PISSED OFF AND WONT FORGIVE ARE FURTHER ALONG IN HAELING THAN THE OTHERS?instead of the other way around. i know thats a radical concept but again i can only speak for me and i wont attempt to make my truth anybody elses . shadow

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#49962 - 12/12/06 11:43 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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shadow, we are maybe further along, I may be.
Dont let anger into yr blood, you are just taking it out on yrself.
I am not ssying forgive them, but forgive yourself for the torture you find yrself in,
thats all,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49963 - 12/12/06 11:52 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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im not to blame for the torture i find myself in

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49964 - 12/13/06 12:15 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RICK57:
I've got to say that anyone that is overly concerned with forgiving paedophiles, just seems like an apologist for them.
I am not even going to dignify this with a response.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49965 - 12/13/06 12:39 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Without forgiveness there is no hope. Whether you believe that or not is up to you; but I would ask you this, has your anger brought you happiness or peace? Do you think it ever will?

“Forgiveness is the answer to the child's dream of a miracle, by which what is broken is made whole again, what is soiled is made clean again.”

Dag Hammarskjold

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49966 - 12/13/06 12:39 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
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lets get the poor souls into rehab ! why wont anyone answer my question? how do i get any of it back? if i forgive will i suddenly have my childhood back ? will all the shit just go away?will i be the person i was supposed to be,just like that? why do people ignore questions they just cant answer?if somebody is healed dont you think its their responsibility to share their wisdom with others?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
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#49967 - 12/13/06 12:48 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Because forgiving means you accept that your perp is human and can make mistakes, just like you are human and can make mistakes. It is a step towards peace.

From my post above:
" Forgiveness comes naturally to children. It is only by being hurt that they begin to stop forgiving others. It is a natural human trait. By forgiving, you release yourself to begin coming to terms with your own actions and any wrongs you may have done others. It restores love and harmony to human relationships. And the reason why I found forgiving my perp to be so liberating, and such an integral part of my healing, is because it has freed me to begin to make peace with the people I have hurt. How can I ask those people to forgive me, if I myself have not forgiven others?"

Ask yourself the last question.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49968 - 12/13/06 01:33 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
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thanks nobby for responding, define human ,is it a combination of elements in the right amounts that make a body,or is it something more? there are as many kinds of perps as their are kinds of abuse,in lots of cases the perp used grooming to suck the victim in and yeah maybe these people are human ,maybe they feel human feelings even if they are real bad feelings .maybe they feel fear and regret when they get caught, but their are people who are evil ,the only thing that makes them human is they have a body .my perp was not human . i can ask for forgivness what does that have to do with forgiving my perp? i dont owe him anything . also you know what else comes naturally to children? trust!!!!! but wasnt it that trust that got most people hurt? how many kids ?how many? how many stories have i read on this site where grown men are tearing themselves apart because not only did they get groomed and molested ,but they forgave the bastard and went back? forgivness and trust the two main reasons kids get not only molested but get molested over and over. if your 11 forgiving can get you killed.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49969 - 12/13/06 01:41 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
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Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
A 40+ year career as a paedophile - do you really classify that as a humanitarian person! If I make a 'mistake', would I repeat it constantly over 40+ years?

Let me run that by you!

Perv (year 1959) - I wonder if I could get away with abusing some young boy, if I bought him some sweets and apples first, got him to trust me! 3 weeks later - that worked fine! Now I'll have to think up some more 'games' for us to play. Couple of months later - 'well that's 3 young boys that fell for it so far - wonder why they only last a few weeks, and then suddenly they don't come back! Maybe I'm rushing things!

Year later, perv wakes up and finds that he has coins in his bed. Must have dropped out of his pockets the night before. Realises that he can guess what some of the coins are by the way they feel against him, even though it is dark in his room!

1969 - Perv has got his grooming/games down to a fine art. Claims another young mind! Will later find out that this was a BIG MISTAKE. Called him a shark (just like the rest - means you don't really remember their names & therefore cannot really count how many young minds you claimed - they were all called shark).

2004 - grooming / abuse has gone well. Perv has certainly perfected his art. Didn't understand the fuss, when the police called and there were boys in the house. Whats wrong with giving kids pellet guns (air rifles are expensive now, and there are problems getting the lead shot..it's also a long walk to the quarry, so it's better that they come here). Thank god there were no girls here when the police arrived, they might have got the wrong idea!

2004 - 1 day later - shit! Now the police need the perv to go to the station - someone has made a complaint. Just deny everything. It seems like there's only one complaint.

2004 - few weeks later. Perv is in local paper.

2006 - January - perv in court - pleads guilty because a third witness is going to stand against him.

2006 - 2nd appearance in court - tries to withdraw plea & requests full trial.

2006 - 3rd appearance - sentencing delayed for reports.

2006 - March 17th - convicted / sentenced.

If someone murdered everyone you loved, would you forgive them? I mean really forgive them, not just type/say that you do? Paedophiles murder minds.

Sorry - I just do not understand it, and repeat - 'Anyone that is overly concerned with forgiving paedophiles, just seems like an apologist for them'!

You also imply that 'those of us who do not forgive' are from the 'dark side' - sorry, but if I appear dark, I am shining a torch so that I can see where I am going - I am looking towards the light, not blinded by it!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49970 - 12/13/06 03:19 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RICK57:
[QBSorry - I just do not understand it, and repeat - 'Anyone that is overly concerned with forgiving paedophiles, just seems like an apologist for them'![/qb]
That's twice you have said that about me. Perhaps you are forgetting that I am a survivor as well. Whatever the case, I am not going to continue this discussion.

Peace

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49971 - 12/13/06 03:20 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RICK57:
Sorry - I just do not understand it, and repeat - 'Anyone that is overly concerned with forgiving paedophiles, just seems like an apologist for them'!
That's twice you have said that about me. Perhaps you are forgetting that I am a survivor as well. Whatever the case, I am not going to continue this discussion.

Peace


EDIT: And neither one of you answered my question.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49972 - 12/13/06 03:33 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
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the only question was how can i ask forgivness without forgiving my perp ,very easily and without any thought of forgiving him

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its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49973 - 12/13/06 08:01 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
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Not to throw more fuel to the fire here, but...

My T tonight quoted the words of Christ where he said it would be better to have a millstone tied around ones neck and be thrown into the sea than to offend a child. I'm wondering how forgiveness fits into that scenario...

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49974 - 12/13/06 08:27 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Wornoutsoul Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 59
Loc: Europe
Mark 9:42 reads as follows....

Quote:
And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
Leviticus 18:6 reads as follows.....

Quote:
No-one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations


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Here to help and inspire.....

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#49975 - 12/13/06 10:30 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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Rick, you should not make statements like this,

Quote:
I just do not understand it, and repeat - 'Anyone that is overly concerned with forgiving paedophiles, just seems like an apologist for them
Nobby is correct on the child analogy, and it was early on that I forgave.
If you want to live in anger curdling your blood, that is your path you choose.

Others try to get beyond it and leave it behind, and forgiving is the biggest part I ever did,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49976 - 12/13/06 11:02 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
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Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Would you please read what I have written, then I may not need to make such statements.

Anyone that wishes to forgive can do - that is for them to decide.

What you can't do is tell other people that they must also forgive.

Some things are simply unforgiveable! Please do not tell me that they are! A 40+ year career as a paedophile only stopped, because I stopped it! Not a one off instance. Not someone of a similar young age experimenting! As I stated above - I only get wound up / angry about the one that I got convicted now, when other people tell me to forgive! it is not there choice to make!

Yes I have forgiven myself, as I have repeatedly stated.

Best wishes...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49977 - 12/13/06 11:12 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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Whatever???

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49978 - 12/13/06 04:05 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by walkingsouth:
Not to throw more fuel to the fire here, but...

My T tonight quoted the words of Christ where he said it would be better to have a millstone tied around ones neck and be thrown into the sea than to offend a child. I'm wondering how forgiveness fits into that scenario...

John
John, I'm not enough of a theologian to comment intelligently on Matthew 18(which contains the millstone parable), but in general in that section of Matthew Jesus is talking about the fates of unrepentant sinners, and the nature of God's salvation and forgiveness.

As food for thought I'll quote a few more passages from Matt 18:

" 2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!""

I'd love to discuss this but I suggest we open a new thread in the Spirituality forum. I'll start it off.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49979 - 12/13/06 05:16 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
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so why isnt my perp sinking into the sea with a stone around his neck?

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when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49980 - 12/13/06 05:38 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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He is! And if he isnt yet, he will be, for all eternity,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49981 - 12/13/06 06:07 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RICK57:
Would you please read what I have written, then I may not need to make such statements.
You know, long ago a man said almost exactly the same thing to me.

I have read what you have written, and I have tried to respond to you as honestly as I can. Your response has been to try to call me out by questioning my integrity and calling me an apologist for perps. And now you have blamed me for your actions.

I reported my perp to the police, and he is in their hands now. When the time comes, I will testify against him in court in order to have him convicted. This is my responsibility as a citizen. I would do exactly the same thing for any perp that I encountered. They are dangerous and society needs to be protected from them.

However, NONE of this has had any bearing on my decision to forgive him. THAT decision was based on my acceptance of the fact that we are both human, and both able to make mistakes.

Do not accuse me of being an apologist until you know exactly where I am coming from. Like you, I was raped, and like you, I brought my perp to justice. I have felt the same pain as you, and I have been through the same hell as you.

I have been participating in this discussion because I feel that forgiveness has a very important place in recovery. It worked for me, and I know it has worked for others because they have been sending me private messages since this discussion began.

Forgiveness may not be your path, but I ask you to not attack me for trying to help others who want to follow this path.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49982 - 12/13/06 07:38 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
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please dont look down on those who dont choose to follow that path. thats what i feel from this thread that if i dont forgive i am doomed to a life of misery,that somehow i am a bad person for not being able to give in .

_________________________
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#49984 - 12/13/06 11:26 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
innerstrength Offline
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Has anyone here confronted their abuser?


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#49985 - 12/13/06 11:37 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Hauser Offline
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I was going to but the first one died back in 1994, and the second one killed himself just after I started coming here. I never really had the chance but I think I would have.


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#49986 - 12/14/06 01:15 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
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shadowkid,

I do not feel you to be a bad person. You are not and perhaps never will be in the same place that others here are or will be. That does not say anything bad about you. It only says you are not in the same place they are.

I'm not saying that anyone here is doing this, but the human tendency is to believe that what works for me will work for everyone else therefore the person who doesn't do it the way I do it is wrong and is somehow less as an individual.

I've seen it happen time after time by people from every walk of life. Christian or atheist, democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, male or female, there is a certain portion of society who tries to impose their own code on their fellow travelers and it simply does not work and is wrong.

For me, the rule of thumb I use when it comes to the subject of forgiveness is to question if the feelings I'm holding regarding an individual are harming me and my walk in life. I've found that bitterness and hatred are poison to me. I hate what taxi guy did to me. I always will, but at some point in the last couple of years I let the bitterness and hatred go.

Does that mean I've forgiven him? I don't see it that way, but maybe I have. I do know that in order for me to progress any further in my recovery I had to let it go. If he were to suddenly appear in my life today I'd do what I could to get him convicted and put away for as long as possible because I believe it's my civic duty to do so. Even then, for my own good I cannot see myself bringing back the bitterness and hate into my life.

But that's me. For me to tell you that you must do the same is absurd. I may or may not believe you should, but that is not mine to say. It's yours and you will cross that bridge if and when you are ready to.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49987 - 12/14/06 02:29 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by innerstrength:
Has anyone here confronted their abuser?
Not directly but I reported him to the police.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49988 - 12/14/06 03:20 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
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i have,i got what i expected from it ,nothing.i saw my abuser face to face just over a year ago,at my grans funeral ,he had just got out of prison , i avoided him as much as i could ,he walked past me leaned in close to me and whispered ,hey adam your still the best fuck i ever had ,tell me now that i need to forgive him ,and yes i put him in prison ,and yes he reoffended and is back in prison now . john thanks for understanding k?thats all i wanted from this thread ,to be understood . adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49989 - 12/14/06 02:18 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
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Posts: 1611
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Nobby - I am extremely glad that you have reported your abuser to the police and are doing things through official channels. I commend you for that, as I know personally how difficult that is.

What I don't understand is when yourself or others imply that I am in a dark place because I will not forgive. That somehow I am less of a person because of that!

My priorities in life do not take into account the pervert in my case, or any other paedophile.

This morning I have actually spent 95 minutes talking to another person, who is in the early stages of taking a paedophile stepfather to court. They are finding the experience very harrowing, as you will appreciate. That is where I think my energies should be channeled. Forgtiving any paedophile is the last thing on my list.

You may find some of my comments offensive, equally I find being told that I must forgive as extremely offensive. I have no personal grudge with you or anyone else here!

The additional question above: "Has anyone here confronted their abuser". Yes - in court, and in the street!

When I first came here, I was looking for support and understanding. Never did I once think it was a place where I would be asked/told to forgive. It that had happened on my first day here, I would have been instantly put off. I would have left this site. I may also have left the planet, because this was my last hope! Does anyone still insist that I must forgive.

As for the religious aspect, I have pointed out before, that I am not interested, and we do have a specific place for that here!

I wish you all well, in however you decide to deal with things, I just don't want to be told how I must do it!

*On a dark night, when the full moon shines, things can have so much more clarity; than they do in blinding sunlight!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49990 - 12/14/06 03:11 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
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Quote:
adam your still the best fuck i ever had
Those prisoners must think the same about him, I hope he looks after them \:o

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49991 - 12/14/06 05:50 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
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i'll never forgive them

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49992 - 12/14/06 07:27 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Trevor Offline
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Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 778
Loc: Rhode Island
me eithr

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My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon. You look so precious.

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#49993 - 12/15/06 12:17 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
OKIE MIKE Offline
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Registered: 02/13/04
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Some one made the commint that Somethings cannot be forgiven .
And got a reply of WHY NOT .
If you have to ask why YOU WOULD NEVER UNDER STAND

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

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#49994 - 12/15/06 02:13 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Chairman201 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Midwest
Steven,

I've recently learned to not only forgive but pray for my enemies. And you know what I've learned? God's vengeance comes down on them ALOT sooner because of it - but you don't get to pray for their destruction!

Chairman201


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#49995 - 12/15/06 02:21 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Hauser Offline
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May I reiterate what I said before? (I feel all alone on this one). I, on the basis of hoping I can be forgiven for hurting other people in my life in the past, have forgiven my perps. They weren't the sadistic, violent, type of perps. I actually found it rather easy to forgive them, but I STILL don't feel better about it. What's that all about?


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#49996 - 12/15/06 02:59 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hauser:
May I reiterate what I said before? (I feel all alone on this one). I, on the basis of hoping I can be forgiven for hurting other people in my life in the past, have forgiven my perps. They weren't the sadistic, violent, type of perps. I actually found it rather easy to forgive them, but I STILL don't feel better about it. What's that all about?
Hauser, you're not all alone. For a long time after I forgave my perp, I really didn't feel any differently, and I didn't see any effect in my life. Then something very good happened with another person (I can't go into details) and I realised that because of my forgiveness, some good came into the world. That was reward enough.

I think the other thing that happened is that I needed to beg someone very close to me for their forgiveness for something I had done to them. I found this a little easier after I had forgiven my perp. In fact, I think if I had not forgiven my perp, and myself, I would never have had the courage to ask my friend for their forgiveness. Maybe forgiving my perp made me humble. I really don't know and I wish I did.

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#49997 - 12/15/06 11:49 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Leosha Offline
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I respect people who choose to forgive. I also respect people who feel that is not the choice for them. Quite a few times, since I have been a member here, this subject has come up, and it often becomes a battle of beliefs, and we can become quite obnoxious towards each other in defending what our belief and choice is. Forgiveness is a very personal thing, and is an individual decision. No one should feel guilted or shamed into doing it if it is not what they wish to do.

I will never forgive my father. I do not waste energy in anger toward him or hating him. I am more indifferent towards him now. But I never will forgive him. He killed my brother with his abuse. To me, in my mind and my personal ethics, that is unforgiveable.

To willingly harm someone weaker than you, knowing that you are causing harm, and to continue to do it without any seeming conscience, and to never acknowledge responsibility for your actions or remorse, to me, that strikes as someone who does not deserve forgiveness. Some will perhaps still make that choice, and power and good wishes to them. Others will not, and power and good wishes to them also.

The man who was my primary sexual abuser, he has expressed regret recently. I am suspicious of him to the extent that I wonder if it is not some devious mind f**k, which I know he (as I have known him before) is quite capable of. I do not forgive, but I pity him, because as a friend said to me once, he can not possibly have any peace in his heart and soul. I find that sad.

I choose to not forgive, at this time. Perhaps some day I will change my mind about that. But my decision deserves respect, whichever it is I choose. I am not causing any hurt or harm with not forgiving, including to myself. So to me, it is not a major issue.

Leosha

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#49998 - 12/15/06 11:51 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Leosha Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by innerstrength:
Has anyone here confronted their abuser?
Yes, and was laughed at, degraded, and further abused at the time.

L.

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#49999 - 12/16/06 02:14 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
healing_inside Offline
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I just want to acknowledge all of my brothers opinions about this subject. Your opinions are very important to me and i learned alot about past expereinces from your thoughts.

For me, i forgave the perps. I hold the power now over one who is still alive. I forgave in my heart, but never expressed it verbually to him and not sure if i ever will. That is the way i see it for me, sounds sound of stange, but it works for me.

I did for me, not them. I am still fucken pissed and angry with them though. I forgave, but will never forget.

I didn't make a conscience decision to sit down and do it, at a certain time etc... It just happened one day out of the blue.

Doing this for me caused my anxiety level to diminish to a level that was manageable. I knew after i did this that i can go back to work. Was off on disability at that time. Have been back to work fulltime about 2 years now.

THought i would share my experence with you all.

H.I

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#50000 - 12/16/06 05:26 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Steven Heath Offline
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I have been reading everyone's thoughts, responses, reactions and feelings on this subject and really appreciaite everyone's input. Through the many years since my abuse stopped and working with therapists and opening up to friends my level of "forgiveness" or lack there of has never waivered or lessened. I will never forgive my uncle. My constant focus and struggle is to forgive myself for letting it happen. Or at least that is the way my brain still to this day interprets it. Also.....and this is a really hard one, it seems that I hold huge deeply buried anger toward my parents for not protecting me. Most of my friends feel that I let them "off the hook". I do not feel anger toward them on the surface and love them dearly, but they as all of us, have shortcomings. So if that is letting them off the hook...I guess my friends are right.
Steve


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#50001 - 12/18/06 02:24 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
healing_inside Offline
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Steven,

I feel much anger also to my parents, deep inside, for not protecting me also, but i love my parents very much.

For my situatiuon i don't show any harshness toward them. Everytime they see my struggles, they know what whey should have done, decades ago and they have to live with that mistake for the rest of their lives.

In my book that is punishment enough.

Healing Inside

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#50002 - 12/18/06 09:07 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
OKIE MIKE Offline
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Forgiveness is a hard thing to do . Some of us may never be able to find it in our heart. I have never ben able to find it . Some others may say that they have forgiven . but down deep have they truly forgiven ?

I see that 100 replys have ben sent to this subject ,it must of touched a nerve

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#50003 - 12/18/06 03:12 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by OKIE MIKE:
Forgiveness is a hard thing to do . Some of us may never be able to find it in our heart. I have never ben able to find it . Some others may say that they have forgiven . but down deep have they truly forgiven ?

I see that 100 replys have ben sent to this subject ,it must of touched a nerve
I have truly forgiven.

I was reading a story this morning about the parents of a girl, named Reena Virk, who was murdered in Canada a few years ago. She was 15 years old. A group of other kids started bullying her and then a couple of them went too far and beat her to death. It was a horrible, mindless crime and it shocked the nation.

One of Reena's killers came up for parole this past summer, and to everyone's surprise, her parents supported his parole application. Reena's mother said, "she was thankful that he had taken responsibility for his actions and expressed the hope that he would truly love and respect others for the rest of his life."
http://www.voiceonline.com/voice/060722/headline7.php

Forgiveness does not come easily, and it doesn't erase what happened in the past, but it does come. In this case, Reena Virk's parents saw past their own anguish and forgave their daughter's murderer, and at the same time they helped him gain a bit of hope for his own future. Nothing has changed about his crime, and he is still in the custody of the justice system, but by forgiving him, Reena's parents have shown that they believe in hope.

I am a survivor and a father, and I can honestly tell you that I would endure anything, even another rape, to save my child. I can't even imagine how I would live if someone killed him. Yet these people, who lost their baby to a stupid, mindless crime, were able to forgive their child's killer and help him on his way to rehabilitation.

Food for thought.

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#50004 - 12/19/06 04:14 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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.people can crack under the strain of losing a child .

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#50005 - 12/19/06 04:23 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
VN Offline
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From the article that Nobbynobs put link to:

Quote:
The three members of the parole board panel pointed out that he had had more than 200 escorted, temporary absences without incident and that he had shown remorse and empathy.

I think this is something to make difference. This person is reported he have 'shown remorse and empathy'. None my abusers have shown that at all. So for why would I forgive someone who have not shown that they would not just do it again, to me or another?


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#50006 - 12/19/06 05:51 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
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Vitaliy raises a good point. How can one be forgiven if they have shown no desire for it or expressed no remorse?

Perhaps this comes down to a matter of personal interperatation or understanding of the word "forgive"...

Lots of love,

John

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#50007 - 12/19/06 05:51 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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heh if they gave acting awards for perps,they would all have an oscar, its what they do!its how they get away with it ,remorse wont bring the little girl back ,and no hate wont either ,but damn it its like saying its ok ,but its not!!! maybe her parents just couldnt cope and forgiving was the only thing they could think of to make themselves feel better ,he dont desreve their forgivness.the daughter is dead she aint comming back!!how much did she suffer before she died? when a murderer says im sorry should we just believe it? forgivness is not gonna save me any more than god did. its like we just forget the victim here THEY BEAT HER TO DEATH! that should be the message not that the parents forgave.rehab ? anybody know the nunbers on how many perps reoffend? if even one did then whoever let him out is just as guilty as he is and should be convicted of the same crime.

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#50008 - 12/19/06 05:53 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by shadowkid:
anybody know the nunbers on how many perps reoffend? if even one did then whoever let him out is just as guilty as he is and should be convicted of the same crime.
I believe Ken Singer has posted them before and there is a small percentage of perps who go on to re-offend. The majority don't. Also, I'm not sure of the US statistics, but in Canada I believe the re-offense rate for all convicts, including perps, is decreasing, mainly due to efforts of groups like the John Howard Society.

At any rate, Reena Virk's parents made their choice. I shared their story to illustrate my point and it is not our place to criticise them for their decision. I don't know if I could forgive someone who killed my child. I hope that I never find out whether I can.

EDIT: Ok I've got the stats for Canada.

From the Solicitor-General of Canada:

"The violent re-conviction rate was 13 per cent and the sexual re-conviction rate ranged from 0.7 per cent to 1.7 per cent."

From Correctional Service Canada (they run the prisons):
"Sexual offenders tend to have relatively low re-offence rates. Among released federal sexual offenders, the average rate of sexual recidivism has been estimated at approximately 5% - 6% and may be even lower."

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#50009 - 12/20/06 04:09 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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thats 1.7 out of how many 10000? im not a math person but is that 100 lives shattered ?100 more kids destroyed ,too many dude way too many ,perps should get life just like murder ,my way its 0.0 reoffend,your way there is always that one or two that are gonna slip through the cracks , whats the price to find out? maybe my kid someday ,i dont wanna take that chance do you? im not critcising them at all just trying to understand their decision . also something else that plays heavily into this ,where do you think they sent the kids that killed her? do you think they will end up in some adult prison? like they should? no they wont they will be in a detention center till they are 18 and then most likly be released ,would you want to be the roomate of that kid? say your just a wild kid maybe 13 years old and get busted for oh shit say joyriding in somebody's car? never really been i trouble before ,but you wake up on day and your roommate is a murderer,and you know why hes there cause if you killed your a big shit . do you know what it feels like when they turn the lights out? would it bother you if he sits on his bed all day drawing pictures of stick people with heads and limbs cut off? but he flushes his art when anybody comes acts so remorsefull and they say what progress he has made!re hab my ass!!

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#50010 - 12/22/06 12:21 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
RICK57 Offline
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If I was checking statistics for re-offence rates for sex offenders, I would be a little more specific and check the rates for paedophiles. I believe that the figures in the UK are much higher than that, maybe someone knows?

Best wishes ...Rik

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#50011 - 12/22/06 04:02 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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That's a very good point Rick. The numbers I quoted are general, the majority of which will be rapists. And I am a bit suspicious of the figures myself, since none of the studies I found gave the time period for the study. I'm trying to find a good long-term study on recidivism for child molesters specifically. I'll post whatever I find.

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#50012 - 12/22/06 04:28 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
healing_inside Offline
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Brothers,

This topic started off about forgiveness and it is sort of going into topic about perps and stats.

I know that info about perps and re-offending stats is a good topic, maybe the can be started as a new post.

Just Thoughts

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#50013 - 12/22/06 05:59 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Good point. The discussion on re-offending came up on MS before so no need to re-hash it here.

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#50014 - 12/25/06 07:32 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
duncanUK Offline
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Registered: 12/24/06
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I would never forgive. We never asked for any of this to happen to us. They are the monsters and have ruined our lives. Only now we are starting to rebuild all that they have taken away from us.

Everyday I feel so full of anger and hatred and I find it hard to let go and feel "human" again.

If I was in control I would hang all these evil people and let it be a lesson to others.
Duncan

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#50015 - 12/26/06 02:25 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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some things cannot be forgiven ,the hurt goes to deep.

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#50016 - 12/28/06 02:15 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Steven Heath Offline
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To all who have responded...I thank you for all of your thoughts and expressions to my posting.....it helps me feel that I actually "belong" somewhere on this earth. And by this I mean with you. Not a bad group to be connected with and to in my opinion.
I wish you all the best in the New Year.....uncontionallly with love....Steve


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#50017 - 12/28/06 02:19 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Steven Heath Offline
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OOPS..... I forgot the most important thing....how I feel.....The reality is that I feel that my voice is actually being heard and responded to. Thank You all so much.....Steve


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#50018 - 12/28/06 02:53 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
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Steve,

This place is what it is because of people like you who have the courage to post a question such as the one at the beginning of this thread. People who are willing to take us to places within ourselves where we've been afraid to go, or would rather not go.

Thanks.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
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#50019 - 12/28/06 03:29 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Jay Bee Offline
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Posts: 52
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One definition of forgive I found was to stop feeling resentful or angry towards someone for an offence or mistake. Suffice to say, offences is most probably putting very mildly the stuff that has happened to us.

I think sometimes it seems very binary that either we have forgiven or we are forever doomed to wear this albatross of poisoning hate, anger, and bitter resentment around our necks as a noose choking us from all the goodness that life may have to offer. I personally feel that sometimes we may get upset or worried about others because we may feel thay are not even allowing the chance for some kind of transformation to happen with their relationship to all the negative feelings they may have towards the perps and what was done to them by these perps' hands. I think if we allow for the possibility of healing, something does eventually happen to all of that. Is it always something as profound as to spark forgiveness? I don't think so but something I have never been able to adequately define does seem to happen.

You certainly can't call it "acceptance" Some might call it "coming to terms with it" but even that is not quite it, it sounds too resolving.
It could be a dulling of pain except that something could occur to make just as sharp as it ever was all over again. Something does happen though that could lead to forgiving but something worthwhile nontheless, even if that forgiving never takes place.

I have to think about how we may have hurt others unintentionally throughout the process of dealing with all this ^&%*$#* and if by asking for possible forgiveness from those folks, are we being hypocritical by not giving the same towards the perps. My gut feelings say no way, but sometimes I DO get a little uneasy over this seeming contradiction at first glance.

Oh well, something for me to think about some more


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#50020 - 12/28/06 04:38 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee:
You certainly can't call it "acceptance" Some might call it "coming to terms with it" but even that is not quite it, it sounds too resolving.
It could be a dulling of pain except that something could occur to make just as sharp as it ever was all over again. Something does happen though that could lead to forgiving but something worthwhile nontheless, even if that forgiving never takes place.
Jay Bee,

This is troubling me as well. I have chosen to call this feeling "recovery" because I feel that I have recovered something of my earlier life, but even that is the wrong word because I am a different person now than I was then. Perhaps "emergence" is the right word. The person that was hiding behind all the hate and pain and fear comes out from behind that wall and starts to get on with things. I agree, it is a difficult phase to define.

Quote:
I have to think about how we may have hurt others unintentionally throughout the process of dealing with all this ^&%*$#* and if by asking for possible forgiveness from those folks, are we being hypocritical by not giving the same towards the perps. My gut feelings say no way, but sometimes I DO get a little uneasy over this seeming contradiction at first glance.
In the past, I intentionally hurt people. I think most CSA survivors do hurt people, although some are still afraid or unwilling to admit that they have done it.(look in the Friends and Family forum for evidence of this)

Abuse breeds abusers. I acted out my abuse in 100 different ways. Yes, the pain and anger from my abuse may have been part of my reasoning, but I was the one who made the decision to hurt people. I was also the one who made the decision to stop hurting people.

Some therapists don't teach this reasoning. They will happily tell us that nothing we did was our fault; we are blameless because we were abused as children. I call bullshit on that. If we use the same rationale on perps, then the perps are not guilty of their crimes because they were abused as children.

Being abused didn't take away our powers to reason or make decisions. If we make the decision to hurt someone else, then we are at fault. And I think that until survivors come to this realisation, they will be cursed to forever relive their abuse by abusing other people.

This is what is at the core of my belief in forgiveness. I know that I have hurt a lot of people. One look at my address book and all the names of friends who no longer speak to me will confirm that. I have seen the pain that I have caused and it tears me apart. I am aware of the damage I have caused myself. But I also understand that I am the architect of this pain. Yes, my abuse formed the foundation, but I am the one who chose to hurt other people. Once I came to this understanding, I began to understand my actions.

If I went back to the people I hurt and explained that I hurt them but it wasn't my fault because I was abused, they will thank me and then forever shut me out of their lives. Excuses mean jack squat. Those people don't care why I hurt them, they only care that I hurt them. So I began to ask people for their forgiveness. It worked. Not perfectly; because in some cases I had caused a lot of damage, but by and large, when I asked people for forgiveness, it worked. Asking forgiveness started a dialogue with the people I have hurt.

That was the beginning. The next step was to look at myself and accept that I have been very self-destructive. I was killing myself with guilt; guilt from the abuse and the emotional manipulation by my perp, guilt for the damage that I have done others, and guilt over the damage I have caused myself. So I let go of the guilt. I forgave myself for all the self-hate and doubt and shame. It didn't ease all the guilt. I still feel terrible about what I have done to other people; but it has helped a lot with my own peace of mind.

Forgiving my perp was the logical step from all this. In my own self-searching, I realised that I was capable of reclaiming my own innocence. Nothing had been taken away from me that I had not given up. So, I finally accepted the fact that I was capable of redeeming myself, of "reclaiming my innocence." I am still in the process of this redemption. It has taken me to places that I never imagined were possible. But during the first stages of this journey I forgave my perp.

The decision was not easy. The last thing I wanted to do was forgive him, because I thought that by forgiving him I was saying that what he did to me was acceptable. However, someone much wiser than me taught me the truth of forgiveness. Forgiving is not excusing. My perp will answer for his crimes. Forgiving is simply acknowledging that perps can also find redemption. It can happen. It does happen. I know this is true, because I found redemption myself when I finally accepted my own abuse of others.

And to go back to your second point, Jay Bee, I felt the same contradiction. I was being a hypocrite when I found myself asking for forgiveness when I harboured anger and hate against others. When I forgave my perp, I didn't expect anything to happen. And for a long time, nothing did. But then, eventually, I felt a growing sense of peace. I began to let go of my anger and hate, and I found that when I did this, it became easier for me to beg other people for their forgiveness.

One final note. I did not make this journey alone. It took a long time, and I had a lot of help, mainly from guys on Malesurvivor but also from a lot of gifted others, including my wife, my therapist, the lead detective on my case (a man truly called to his vocation), several priests and ministers, and a few people who will remain nameless. There are people in this world who teach Truth. Call them teachers, spiritual guides, therapists or ministers, they are dedicated to helping. My advice is "seek them out." Or call for help and they will seek you out. But if you do anything in the new year, find one of these people.

You won't be sorry.

Peace.

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

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#50021 - 12/28/06 04:51 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Cooljule Offline
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Posts: 69
Loc: New Jersey
I think there is rightous act and self-rightous act

rightous acts=good we do to help others,with no motive of pay back

self-rightous=look what IIII did..i am better than other..I deserve this or that

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#444184 - 08/13/13 05:23 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Steven Heath]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3586
Loc: O Kanada
forgiving my abusers was nearly impossible.
it took me until the age of 50 to even want to.
forgiving my abusers was one of the most difficult things i have ever done in my entire life.
it was also one of the best things that ever happened to me.

you can read about it here: warning triggers!
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...2551#Post432551

i have done more healing since that day, than in all the years previous.
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#444185 - 08/13/13 07:45 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Steven Heath]
Jay1946 Offline


Registered: 08/08/13
Posts: 100
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Victor:

You speak words of wisdom. Forgiveness is what allows us to move on. It is more important to do it for us, than for the abuser.

I learned this lesson from a dear friend who suffered a very grave injustice. He suffered a lot as a consequence of very evil actions on the part of a group of people. Yet, he told me one day, that he felt he needed to forgive to move on. That if he did not forgive he would be mired, forever,in the hatred for what happened to him.

That was more than thirty five years ago. He moved on and has accomplished more in his life, since, than he ever dreamed he could have.

It's not easy, though.


Edited by Jay1946 (08/13/13 10:36 AM)
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#444192 - 08/13/13 10:23 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Jay1946]
Chase Eric Offline
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To forgive is to exercise the ultimate power we have over the injustices we suffered.
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#444214 - 08/13/13 02:33 PM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Chase Eric]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3586
Loc: O Kanada
re: schindler's list clip you posted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK-AFHdD7Vw

can you imagine if the penalties for murder were suspended or abolished?
the earth's population would drop overnight.
we are talking total world war.
not many people would exercise the power of forgiveness,
if they possessed the power to execute others.

i know that i would have probably killed or been killed by now.

so, since killing people is forbidden, by church and state, we are faced with three choices.
1. breakin' the laws!
2. impotent rage of unrealized revenge fantasies.
3. forgiveness.

if you can think of another option, please post it here.
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#447724 - 09/20/13 07:37 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Steven Heath]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
I'm 35. When I was 20, I knew a guy (lets call him Cal) who was 35. I basically worshipped Cal. I know I had a crush on Cal. Cal was athletic, smart, read poetry, and worked as a child-advocate (meaning a lawyer who defended kids from abusive parents). Pretty much my image of a superhero.

But Cal was also incredibly homophobic, had no apparent sex drive of any sort, and not at all in touch with his pain. Cal's father had abused him severly as a child. Then, when Cal was 14, his father had a stroke that instantly changed the family dynamic. Suddenly that strong angry man became slow, soft-spoken, clumsy and (whether because of neurological reasons or because he realized he couldn't be a bully anymore) kind and doting to everyone. For all practical purposes, he became a different person.

Following the stroke, the mother got Cal heavily involved in church, where Cal learned from his youth pastor about forgiveness.

You would think that would be a good thing. Cal always talked about it like a good thing. But the problem was, Cal never really had a chance to be angry first. No one let him be angry. Who was he going to be angry at? The dottering old man in the wheel chair?

At the time I knew Cal I didn't understand that what I saw as strength was really still repression. Not of memories, but of anger. People talk about being born again. His father had literally changed. His brain was for all intents and purposes the brain of a different person. So Cal had nothing to rage at. If his father had died, he could have spat on the ground. Instead he took it all inside of him.

I broke my ties with Cal after a few years because his views about homosexuals broke my heart. So I don't really know if he's ever dealt with what I've only in the years since come to understand.

But I do know that, whether or not forgiveness is the goal, you have to go through anger. You can't go around it or duck it or expect God to lift you over it. If you try that you'll be trading repression of memory for repression of emotions. You'll still be missing out on healing because you can't get anywhere if you don't first admit where you are.


Edited by Jacob S (09/20/13 07:38 AM)
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#447728 - 09/20/13 08:26 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Steven Heath]
newground Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 817
Loc: michigan
hey man
you are absolutely right on. the unfortunate thing is that many churches teach a warped teaching on anger. it is in no way un christian to be angry or to express that anger. it HAS to happen as you say or you kind of die inside... (how well I know this) there is NO teaching of any kind in the christian bible that suggests that anger is wrong of forbidden or any of those things. so far as forgiveness I think that the understanding here is confused as well. forgiveness is NOT to let anyone off the hook. in fact it changes the SITUATION very little. it simply means that I refuse to allow this to become my life. I will NOT continue to allow someone else's actions to control mine. whatever moral imperative someone chooses to place on it forgiveness is really for us.it frees us from taking the poison and waiting for the other person to die.
Just my thoughts
Jeff
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Either I will find a way, or I will make one.
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#447791 - 09/21/13 12:08 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: newground]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3586
Loc: O Kanada
anger is not hatred.
but it sure feels like it.

"Hard to see clear.
Is it me? Is it fear?
I'm madly in anger with you
."
- James Hetfield (Metallica)

"Anger is a mask for fear."
- Norman Fischer (Sailing Home)

"The things we fear the most have already happened to us."
- Deepak Chopra

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure
."
- Marianne Williamson

"You wear a mask for so long, you forget who you were beneath it."
- Alan Moore (V for Vendetta)

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
- Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."
- Yoda (Star Wars)

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me."
- Frank Herbert (Dune)

"Danger is very real, but fear is a choice."
Cypher Raige (After Earth)

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
- F.D.Roosevelt

"Fear is the cheapest room in the house.
I would like to see you living in better conditions
."
- Hafiz



Handling Anger

http://www.vmh.com/Library/controlling-anger.pdf
http://www.usc.edu/programs/cwfl/assets/pamphlets/angermanagement%202.pdf
http://www.louiseporter.com.au/pdfs/anger.pdf
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#448060 - 09/24/13 02:34 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Steven Heath]
Onesimus75 Offline


Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
***Triggers*** not 'cause I'm going to say anything graphic as I'm pretty sure I'm going to get lynched if I answer honestly. I'm just explaining where I am, and how I see it. I am NOT demanding anyone agree with me, or behave as I do.
It's just that my thoughts on this are 100% grounded in my religion. My last T pointed out that religion is a valid normative force.

Ugh. This is probably going to be pretty unpopular since it's a minority view rooted in traditional religious beliefs.
But you asked. I'll answer.

Your abuser is a monster. He doesn't deserve forgiveness. Anyone who deserves forgiveness doesn't need it. Only the guilty, the horrible, and the wrong need it.

For me, I think I'm commanded to love those who hurt me. BUT love doesn't mean hugs and kisses.
1ST THING: Love yourself. Keep yourself safe. Get help. Get out! if you don't love yourself your neighbor is in BIG trouble!

Right off, the first thing that I have to do to love someone is to try and stop them sinning. If I came across a mugger, I might have to hurt him to make him stop, but that stops him being a mugger! If I encounter an abuser who's carrying on with their crimes, then the most loving thing I can do is to report them, or physically stop them if it's happening in front of me.

So, for me, I can't have anything to do with someone if it's going to hurt me or them. I pray for my major perp every time I remember him, but if I found out that being around me made him struggle all over again, or remember stuff that was sick and wrong, then I would have to stay away as long as that was the case. If I wasn't ready to see them, it would hurt me, then I would have to stay away.

I think that for a lot if not most victims of sexual abuse, they're sort of covered in that paragraph.

But my worldview states that my own forgiveness is dependent on how I forgive those who have hurt me. My example is someone who asked forgiveness for people who were torturing him to death when he could have killed them easily.

THAT EXAMPLE HAS LIMITS. My religion doesn't have forgiveness for people who aren't repentant (repent = turn around. Not I'm sorry. Not I feel bad. But the original words mean to turn around 180 degrees.) So most perps who live in denial or continue to abuse, i don't have to forgive. In fact I can pray for them to hurt. I can pray that God gets them back over and over until they hurt so bad they need a way out, and that way out has to be stopping, turning around. I'm afraid I think that many, if not most, will never do that. But I know those who have.

Right now, I don't have a way to have any contact with my abusers. One I only knew at camp. One was a pervert who chased me around in a car masturbating and trying to get me to go with him. One was a long term relationship date-rape but I don't know where the guy lives or how to contact him even if I did want to.

But I'd talk to him if I could. When I stopped wanting to kill myself over my body's reaction and the long-term effects of what he did to me, I had to say, "This guy owes me a debt he can never begin to pay." I started learning how to forgive myself for my reactions (that weren't my fault) and the adultery, rage, manipulation, and hate that I gave myself permission to do because of it (those were my fault.) I couldn't undo what I had done either.

So, forgiveness didn't mean saying what he did to me was OK. It was saying that he deserved to die for what he did. (Adultery, rebellion, and my other sins also deserve death according to the old codes of my religion.) Forgiveness doesn't mean never feeling anger. Sometimes I still feel rage at myself for my sexual reactions, mostly that I sometimes still feel them. Much more often I feel anger and rage over what was done to me. I didn't deserve it! I was 11 / 13 / 16! It wasn't my fault.

My worldview gives me a target, a place to vent all that rage and anger whenever I need to. So forgiving doesn't mean i'm not allowed to feel that. It just means that I can yell and scream to my higher power who wants to hear how I feel.

Forgiveness doesn't mean letting them off the hook as much as saying that their price was paid when mine was (Christianity's weird among other religions on this point.)

Anyway... after I started letting myself off the hook, I started feeling different about my abuser. I saw and understood the things that hurt him, and that he was trying to get out of the abuse. I could understand, and since I didn't have to say it was OK, and I didn't have to not be angry, it took a lot of the challenges away.

Right now I just pray for the guy whenever a flash-back or hurt comes up. If that means God torturing him until he repents, I'm really cool with that. If that means he repents, it doesn't mean that he has paid the price for what he did. He can't. Couldn't. No one could possibly pay for all the years of suffering, shame, and pain he did to me. When I think about the effects, I want to beat the guy to death sometimes. But someone was beaten to death in his place, as a substitute. So... I have come to accept that the torturous death in agony that my perp deserved has been dished out. It's just that someone who loves us both took the beating.

So... forgiveness isn't a lack of anger, or a lack of judgment, or a lack of vengeance. For me forgiveness is venting the anger, knowing the judgment and vengeance has been carried out.

And after a while (For years when I had the opportunity, though my 20's I didn't have anything to do with the guy, so this is like 15+ years after the fact...) I started to feel compassion for the abuse he suffered. Not excusing him, just understanding. I think he has wounds a lot like mine. So I can pray for those. And I do.

It's tangled.
It's 100% opposite of how every other religion or philosophy I know does it. And I know it's not the American way of doing things.

It's just what I believe, and how it works for me.

But it gives me peace about him, and lets me put more energy to coping on a day-to-day basis. And I hope that some day everything horrible about him will be burned away and something good will be grown out of what's left. That, too, is both vengeance and hope. But it works for me.

It gives me the ability to ask for him to be delivered from who he was, because I think he doesn't deserve it. No one does. Including me.

And I want hope, help, and healing. So I want it for him.

Sigh...
and I feel like I should say goodbye to everyone before I get kicked off for saying this...

It's been real.
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We are not defined by our faults, or our wounds, but by the truth within us, which nothing can take away.

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#448180 - 09/25/13 07:36 AM Re: FORGIVE???????? [Re: Steven Heath]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 955
Loc: southern California
"But I do know that, whether or not forgiveness is the goal, you have to go through anger. You can't go around it or duck it or expect God to lift you over it. If you try that you'll be trading repression of memory for repression of emotions. You'll still be missing out on healing because you can't get anywhere if you don't first admit where you are."

Perfectly stated, Jacob.
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"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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