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#49922 - 12/05/06 01:04 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by bec:
is it true that the healthiest place to be is where you have forgiven your perp(s) for all the ways they betrayed you?
yes

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49923 - 12/05/06 03:00 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
This topic comes up every few months, and every time it does the temperature starts rising in the thread to the point where at times there's been angry words flying back and forth.

What's up with that guys? I know what I think about it, but I sure am not going to get angry at my brothers here who feel differently on the subject.

Each of us are in a different place on the road of recovery and some of our roads will never be the same as the other guy's.

Actually, this time around it's been rather mild. Let's keep it that way guys! Let's discuss this topic, share our ideas on it with the idea of providing food for thought for those who are questioning themselves regarding forgiveness. Let's not let it make us angry at our brother.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49924 - 12/05/06 12:09 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
I dont have to forgive myself as I did nothing wrong, as far as my abusers are concerned there is no forgiveness, its my anger and the positive things I do with it that keeps me going.....note I said positive things and in a lot of ways it was my anger that kept me alive.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#49925 - 12/05/06 07:44 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirk Wayne:
its my anger and the positive things I do with it that keeps me going.....note I said positive things and in a lot of ways it was my anger that kept me alive.
With all due respect, I can't think of any way that anger can generate something positive, but if you have achieved something positive with your anger, then I invite you to please share it. I may be wrong.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49926 - 12/05/06 08:00 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Koveri Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Dallas, TX
There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'. WHen we see injustice or oppression, it should make us angry and move us to respond to change things. My problem is that I see injustice and oppression and I want to run away and put my head in the sand. This is where I SHOULD be angry and am not.


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#49927 - 12/06/06 01:25 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Koveri:
There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'.
Certainly. Someone who is truly righteous has every right to use anger. However, I challenge you to find a truly righteous person. Righteousness implies perfect judgement, and I'm pretty sure that there is nobody on this planet who is capable of perfect judgement.

Since we are neither righteous nor perfect, what right, then, do we have to be angry? "Righteous" anger implies a judgment; that you become angry with another person because they have failed you, or done wrong to you, according to your standards of judgement. Fine.

The problem is, nobody is perfect, and for sure you, and me, and everyone else on earth, have either failed someone else or done wrong to someone else. Are those other people entitled to be angry at us for failing them or wronging them? If they are, and they act on their anger and hurt us, what has been gained? How does such a system of retribution and revenge create anything other than further conflict and hatred?

So I'll repeat my question. Someone, please illustrate to me a completely positive change that has come from someone acting in anger. Who among you has found peace by taking their anger out on another person?

Peace.

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#49928 - 12/06/06 07:37 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Kirk,

I'm gonna agree with you on this one. I suppose my agreement is colored by my own interpretation, but here's how I see it.

My anger really did keep me going. Perhaps it even kept me alive long enough to begin the recovery process. Now I'm faced with putting new perspective on the issue of anger and it's place in my life. Not sure I've got that all ironed out yet, but I'm working on it.

Thanks for your post. It's given me food for thought.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49929 - 12/06/06 07:37 AM Re: FORGIVE????????
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Forgiveness is supposed to be an act of grace - you willfully give up a claim to something for the sake of the greater good, or peace, or closure. How can anybody "willfully give up" something that they can never possibly receive anyway? The concept is without meaning. What was taken from me cannot be given back, nor is there some "equivalent" that could serve as compensation. In order to "forgive" my perpetrators, I would have to pretend they owe me something in the first place.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49930 - 12/06/06 12:51 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Nobbynobs

It is all to do with attitude and focusing, in the past my anger was a very self destructive force when angered I would invaribly end up drinking and wrecking havoc on those about me or I would self harm, today after a lot of hard work in anger management courses I have re-channeled my anger into doing something positive within the survivors community by that I mean getting involved in politics as that is the only way things are going to change by making those who weald the power aware of the damage CSA can do to the individual and therfore society in general, by nature I am a bone idle sod and it is my positive anger that helps me get up in the morning to try and instigate some change,you could also use the word determination in the same breath as anger ...... of seeing things through to the end regardless of what people think or do and there are plenty out there that will try to stop us from changing things, espcially thhose who are known as the OSC (the Online Sex Offender Community).

Hope this goes some way to answering your query.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#49931 - 12/06/06 01:54 PM Re: FORGIVE????????
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Thanks Kirk, yes we dont forgive, we forgive ourselves before we totally destroy ourselves.

Ive shook off a lot of the 24/7 guilt trip and anger trail by finding positives.
I still lapse at times, but tend to get back again.

I am a load stronger because of my past, even though I would just rather not be.
Dont ever forget the power of your own minds in overcoming this shit,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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