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#49565 - 03/01/03 05:16 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
This has been a difficult thread to read--but in the midst of such longing for things to be different than there are and were, there is hope and determination.

It is really difficult for someone who is past 30 years or so. to accept that his childhood and adolescence were abnormal to say the least, AND that we can't redo it. RJD, Bob, I think it was you who wrote the moving story of taking little Bobby by the hand and into the house he grew up in, to tell his family you would be taking care of him now.

That is a profound picture for me. I visualized is as I read it and it was a "shouting moment" a one of my African Ameerican ladies used to tell me. Thanks.

Please guys, do not think I am saying something here that I am not. But, I will tell you of a time in therapy when I was so angered at my therapist that I could have taken his degrees and certificates off the wall and thrown them out the window.

I was talking to him about these very thoughs, lost childhood, feeling abanoned, unloved etc. I think this happened just in the past decade so this is after 25 to 30 years of therapy off and on. Mostly on.

He looked me in the eye and asked:" Bob, what are you getting out of all that?" I did not understand the questions. So he explained that I must be getting something that I feel I need out of feeling so sorry for myself and my life, and holding on to that with all my might. Damn him, was my immediate thought.

This was one of the most emotionally conflicted times in my life. I was filled with anger, hurt, shame, betrayed, challenged and finally embarassed and kind of hard on myself for not seeing the dynamic earlier.

I could not believe he could be so cruel to say such a thing--but gradually, as he talked and we talked, I saw a point. Until I could get over holding on to my "victimhood" I could not move on.

Sure wish there was a cheery ending. But the truth is, that I still feel sad, angry and cheated, at least at times. I grieve over a past I did not have and decisions I made without ever experiencing the norm for life as a young man. But, I am getting better, and I do ask myself that question a lot. I ask myself what I am getting out of it and of course the answer is the same, lots of sadness and some people giving me a little sympathy, which in fact I can admit, I want some times.

Peace to us all.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#49566 - 03/01/03 10:18 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Bitter pills for me to swallow:
"You're just feeling sorry for yourself." the expression lacks soul to me, and I have often heard it used as a put-down.
"What is this getting you?" I've even seen that used as a put-down, but I also have heard it as a good question.

I'm with you all the way here Bob.

"You're just feeling sorry for yourself."---The good news and the bad news of "getting better" then attempting suicide was that My rage was finally getting to the surface. That was the healthy part of coming out of a catatonic depression.

The downside and unhealthy part of attempting suicide was that I dumped on the first support system I've ever had: my theripist, my wife, and myself. The three of us recieved all of the pent-up impotent-turned-potent rage of the terribly wounded boy/man in me. He wanted someone else to feel what I could only try to numb out. In retrospect, they represented my architypal mother, and the kind of care I was accustomed to.

Another vulnerable bystander was my 4 y.o. daughter, who was not yet aware of what was going on,though she was not unaffected by the drama.

I lived and breathed suicidal thoughts. They were how I got through the day.

What they got me was relief with the thought that I could opt out of the pain at any time. But what they also got me was to reinforce how I felt about myself as a sick fcker and deserved to be continuously tortured and threatened with death that way. I complained about it. but I also wallowed in it.

Then one day the question came to my attention,"What would life be like without all this self-loathing. ...Now there was a scary thought...

Self -loathing was part of my identity. I had learned to do it so consistantly that I knew no other way. Could I 'choose' not to do that anymore? Since when did I have this choice?

The key for me was when I began to tell my story over and over again and the secret that I should "never tell anyone, because they won't understand," was not a secret anymore, and it gradually released it's hold on me. (over several years.[ages 30-40)

I still pick up a hammer and instinctually beat myself with it, but now I catch myself and can stop sooner than I used to. (some of you might remember the post under "I hate wasps" when I did that quite litterally.)

Choices are now visible to me that were impossible for me to see even a few years ago.

Going to grad school 3 yrs ago was a step into my light that was terrifying to me. Beating up on myself was a way of life. Stopping that behavior and daring to think that I deserved to be able to get a masters like anyone else who's ever gotten a masters before in history was so presumptuous of me. Surely the school made a mistake when they decided to accept me.

I litterally had to say "stop that Bob" on a regular basis for the past two years. I'm on the other side of the experience now, and it is still a crisis for me even though I've graduated.

I had to understand what I learned as a child. Then I had to unlearn what I learned. Then I had to teach myself a new way to live life.

I am envious of those who learned the right way from the start. .


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#49567 - 03/02/03 01:38 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
orodo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 735
Loc: Imladris, The Safe Haven of Ar...
suicide was a big issue for me before new years, 2003. Until...

My cousin, was kicked out by his second wife, with no real contact with his children by his first wife, nor his daughter by his second wife. He thought his pain would never end. I don't think he was a survivor of SA, but he sure was in alot of pain. Wrote his ex and his wife, and his kids letters. Mailed em. Shot him self dead on new years eve.

He said in his letters that if he could not be with his wife and kids, he could not be here at all.

I went to the funeral. This is the spooky part.

He spoke to me, at the memorial service at the Firefighters Memorial (he was a volunteer Firefighter) Almost like in a dream, but I was wide awake. "Look at my mother, my father, my wife, my ex wife, my son, my daughters. (they were sobbing in so much pain as we all were) I could not deal with my pain, so I thought I could get rid of it all by ending my life. I was wrong. All I did was stop my own pain, and gave it all to those whom I love the most here on earth. Marc, don't ever think what I did was the easy or correct thing to do. It solved nothing, my family bears my pain, and I carry more pain in this place than I did on earth..." And he was gone.

I feel pain, suffering, sadness, anger, rage all those things we as SA survivors feel. But it took my cousin's suicide (and speaking with brothers like Dan in NE, Chey-WY, Lightfang, the Dean )to make me realize that the end is not the answer.

orodo

_________________________
It is better to be Dragon Master than Dragon Slayer. Some Dragons are meant to be mastered, others meant to be slain. Odin, Great Spirit, God, grant me the wisdom to know the difference. "May the Valar guide and bless you on your path under the sky"

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#49568 - 03/02/03 07:21 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
woz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 23
Loc: Australia
i would like to share this on your current topic if i may,

at 43 married with 4 young adult/teenagers and as a survivor
i know feel my own hurt pain and saddness that seems endless, so many times has driven me to the point where, yep to die would seem the best choice.

but then creator who whispers in one ear, woz then who will do the heart work? while i whisper in the other countering creator, who cares?

my wife and children care i know they do, yes they dont tell me as often as the little boy inside wants to hear it.

but i know that they do and i know that the courage i have been shown by them to me by loving me in spite of my great efforts at keeping them away from my heart and fealings.

so to honour them i will do the heart work, for me, my wife my children, my creator, my friends

i can not change that which is past and the pain and the saddness will not change the fact that my protectors as a child, teenager, and young man all failed in there job.

but i can stand with courage because i have found one who loves me in spite of me.

me

but just a little better yet 5 others,( wife daughter son son daughter) then before i knew it a few more again, so i now know the whole world may not love me, but just one is enough and my life is showing me that i am not standing alone anymore.

so dont have to listen to me, when i say you are woth standing for the fight of your life, just listen within, you will here you the real you cause like me you are the most single important loveing being the your creator has ever made, and you are worth the fight.

do i ever think of the what if's yes every day still, but a little boy tells me i'm worth standing up for.

listen to your chld within they know that your worth it to.

and though i may not know you yet, i think that you are too.

blessings

_________________________
as in all things we are all connected.
Ho, Mitakaye Oyasin

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#49569 - 03/02/03 02:05 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
A person would have to be blind and deaf not to see enormous courage here. Orodo, your cousin was so right. WOZ you put the struggle so well. RJD Bob, you always have a healthy word to speak.

Physical pain has driven me to think that I wanted life to end, as much as has the SA pain. But I always know that what I really want is to stop the pain. So I drive my physicians a little nuts by telling them that the pain has got to lessen, if it can't stop.

Pain sucks. Hope is awesome. The hope and experience of the past in getting rid of some of the pain, sure helps me want to see a long future, as long as I can make it be.

Peace to you guys and thanks for sharing your agony--I feel compassion for all of you. But I also get strength through it all. It is invaluable to me.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#49570 - 03/02/03 05:35 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Welcome WOZ and thanks for your good words.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#49571 - 03/03/03 03:23 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5378
Loc: Washington State
What do I think? I do think that taking your own life is letting your abusier win. If you take your life couse of your sa you are still letting them control you. I do think that taking your own life is giving up on your self. You are worth so much to this world and your self.


Love, Nathan


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#49572 - 03/03/03 09:30 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Nathan: You are so so right. I know what you are talking about. My perps hotwired me to keep silent etc, etc. And I did. The permanancy of suicide guarantees silence forever; their ultimate victory over us. And the CANNOT and MUST not win. Last Spring was a very scary time for me. I had been in therapy for about 5-6 years and things were going to straight to hell. One evening I was going inline skating at the rink where I teach. I took a tremendous amount of medications (Effexor and Welbrutin) and lfet the rink and drove down to Lake Ontario. I piled my clothes on the shoreline and headed into the lake fuly intending to swim umtil fatigue and the cold helped me suceed. I was about 50 yards from shore when I heard a voice "PLease dont do this". I looked back at the shoreline and saw a young man walking his dog. I went back to shore intending to tell this young man why I was doing what I was doing. When I got ashore there was no one there. I was really spooked. Got dressed and sat in my car with the heater on for about 1 hour. When I got home the poiice were waiting for me. My friends at the rink had called my wife and daughter and they had frantically looked for me before enlisting the aid of the police. They were kind and gentle with me. I completely broke down and one officer, older guy, held me while I shook and told me to let it all out. This was the first time an authority figure had done this. My wife and daughter were frantic with relief.
What this is all leading to is that I had never felt so much love right then from my family. It was a love that, no matter what, I had worth. Quite a relevation. So for me personally, suicide is not an option for dealing with SA.

RJD you wrote:The little boy in me already feels like his soul was murdered. I felt that way for most of my adult life. Ime 62 now. What I believe now is that my sould was not murdered nor my childhood stolen. Just locked up by my perps. They gave me the key to the jail and I did a very good job of guarding the door. Now I an opening that door and allowing some of the light and joy of living in there. It is not easy nor do I expect it to be. But IT IS ONE HELL OF A LOT BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE I HAVE EVER DONE. I DONT WANT TO JUST SURVIVE I WANT TO LIVE AND SEE JOY AROUND ME AND WITHIN ME.
For those of you that do not have close family or friends we are all here for you, each and everyone of us.
Nuff Said

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#49573 - 03/03/03 11:08 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Amen mikechurch...

Thrive my fellow traveler...and peace be with you...

I have often admired the beautiful work you do and the wisdom you speak..


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#49574 - 03/03/03 11:11 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Yes, I too have felt the pull of suicide. It almost pulled me off a mountain once.

But I also know that suicide is not an option, it is the end of all options.

Had I thrown myself off that mountain when I was 17, I wouldn't be here talking about the "option" of suicide. I wouldn't be here with this fine group of men opening their hearts to one another,
offering & receiving support & life.

Thanks to you all. I'm glad you're all here.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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