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#49555 - 03/01/03 01:56 AM is suicide really all that bad?
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1250
Loc: Northern Ohio
Is suicide really all that bad, of a choice. Oh, I hear the religious ones screeming at me now.
As shocked as I was at gunnar's last post, I can't condemn the man for trying. Someone in chat said its, "not stopping the abuse, its giving up." It's easy to say it, so very different Living it. Was living thru that HELL a better way. The daily torture of mind and body with no hope, (or prayer), of escape. I wasn't even aware of the concept of suicide (or that I could kill him) as a kid, too bad really.
Why dont I do it now ? Because I am not living in the abuse, and I dont want to hurt those that care about me. But I sure came close to it a year ago. So close. I still understand the pull of suicide...

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#49556 - 03/01/03 03:14 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I still understand the pull of suicide too blacken.


Once that choice is acted upon to its completion, there are no other choices. Just knowing that became a deterent for me, what if it was a mistake. Knowing I could end the pain, that I had a choice, helped me to hang on a little longer. Suicidal thoughts comforted me in a very sad way.

While driving the thought of just letting go of the steering wheel at 70 miles an hour and it could all be over. No more pain.

I ignored the possibility that I could live through it with permanent brain damage or be paralized from the neck down.

I entertained thoughts of suicide for several years, but I told no one. In my head I was always exploring methods for doing it.

By not commiting suicide on a particular night I eventually came to experience some days that weren't half bad. It was much like the song says"help Me Make It Through the Night,"and "The Darkest Hour Is Just Before Dawn." I found that second saying ever soo true on sleepless nights. The next day wasn't as oppressively tough to endure. After experiencing this many, many, many times, hanging on became a little easier.

As I've said in Lloydy's "How Long" survey post, a book by John Bradshaw titled "Healing the Shame That Binds You,"helped to turn my life around. It differentiates between guilt and shame. Guilt is about a mistake I made, or something I've done wrong. Shame is about - I am a mistake, my very being is a great error.

Part of suicidal thoughts were about finding relief for the never ending agony. Part of my suicidal thoughts were about murdurous rage. Suicide is self murder.
The murderous rage could not be at my "loving" mother, what kind of ungrateful son would I be. It had to go somewhere so I joined everyone else in my family who tried to destroy any self worth i should have had.

I swallowed a three months supply of maximum strength anti-depressants (Elevil) in my murderous rage after I walked out on a conjoint session with my wife and my therapists.

I drove to a nearby park, and waited for death.

When The medication began to get into my system I started to feel better and I couldn't remember why I was so rageful, so I turned myself in to my therapist. The little blue pills bounced all over the place on the ER floor. I was soon unconscious.

It is now 27 years later. I have come to experience life as prescious. I have come to claim a life for myself. Suicidal thoughts were about what they taught me about myself. I know now they were so very wrong.


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#49557 - 03/01/03 10:12 AM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
RJD, thanks you so much for sharing your journey from despair to hope and belief in a better future. This is really helpful.

It is good that after your meds began to work you could still get to the ER. I suspect some want to do that, but decide too late.

Congratulations! It took courage to go through all that and it takes courage to tell it. But please do know that you have helped us a great deal by telling us that it is worth putting up a fight for life.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#49558 - 03/01/03 12:11 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
michaelb Offline
Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 211
Loc: cincinnati, ohio
Blacken....i appreciate your post because once again in my life i am seriously considering suicide....i first tried when i was 15, but nobody knew...a bottle of aspirin will not do the trick.....guess my last serious attempt was in may 2001 when i took heart pills and slit my wrists with razor blades, guess i wanted help since i drove to a payphone and called the crisis line, i went to a payphone because i did not think they could trace the call... though i think i just wanted to talk to somebody while i fell asleep....unfortunately a bunch of police and an ambulance showed up....i was so mentally determined to accomplish what i've known i need to do for such a long time....it is hard to muster the courage to do it.....i was very close in december, i went to a gun shop to buy a gun....unfortunately i was flagged and had to wait three days....i let that fact slip during a therapy session, maybe sub-consciously i do not want to die, and ended up back in the hospital.....but here i am again, so needing to end the pain and self-loathing....how do you ever get over being abused????? especially when bad things started when i was so young (2-3) and lasted so long (until i was 15), i had so effectively blocked those bad things from my memory for so long, but now the dreams and flashbacks are unbearable, i just cannot endure much more.....the anti-depressants, i had such hope in, do not seem to be working and i'm tired of trying different pills.....pills will never feel the void inside of me, unless they put me into a permanent sleep with no more nighmares of being raped....

you say you did not do it because it would hurt your family.....i think i used to try to do it to make my family love me, if not in life, in death.....but at this point in my life i no longer care about my family, it has taken me alot to get to this point, but my wonderful mother did me a great service when in may 2001, after i had slit my wrists and was still hospitalized, decided to vacation in las vegas with my sister....at that point, i realized she was always going to be incapable of caring about me and i had to severe ties with them.....that point was driven home when several days later i told her of the abuse and her response was well, i'll call your uncle and ask him....that was the final straw, i cannot allow myself to care about such a person any longer.....so you see, family is no longer a barrier or even a consideration for me.....let her have her pitiful funeral for me where she can act like the suffering victim and garner all of the attention she so craves.....i do not give a damn......

yes, i have fears of becoming a living vegtable...but in so many ways i already am that....my therapist retorts when i talk about suicide," you do not know what is on the other side, you might suffer more and not be able to do anything about the pain. At least here you can try to make the pain go away".......sad thing is, it never does go away, it just gets worse....so that argument really holds no validity for me.....

people say suicide lets the perpetrators win.....this is not a contest.....i do not give a damn about who wins, i just need things to end.....

maybe soon i will be courageous and complete the act........michael


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#49559 - 03/01/03 12:45 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
al Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 143
Loc: canada
Michael please I beg you don't go down that road. Please find someone to talk to. i have done the things you've done, tried those things to. but they are not the answer, life is the answer, a chance to get past the hurt the pain the abuse. While i was laying in bed marc sat beside me while he waited for the results of the cat scan. I tried to tell him but couldnt i already knew what the answer would be and i couldn't even tell him. now i have to live with this forever, the damage i caused myself. please stay with us and keep talking

_________________________
Those who dance appear insane to those who cannot hear the music. Mark Kleiman

Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. Winston Churchill

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#49560 - 03/01/03 01:45 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1250
Loc: Northern Ohio
I joined this Forum back in August of 2001. There has been a lot of change since then.
I was extreamly angry back then. The wounds of renewed memory were fresh and stung greatly.
My mood here on this Forum is quite fickle. One post might be hopeful, the next dreadful. I think because I listen, and the words of others invoke or release inner feelings that have been waiting (perhaps for decades) to be released. I am far more open here, than anywhere else in my life.

RJD, Your responce is right on the mark for me. It rung true in my heart and I appriciate U taking the time to write it.

michaelb, I am not currently, actively seaking my own death. BUT! I am certainly NOT happy. I have moments of joy. I have days of "ok'ness". But I really dont know what Happiness is, on an emotional level.
I, in my work, have had to talk to kids about & out of suicide. And at times I have felt such the Hipocrate. I felt I was telling lies.
I so much want to not feel this dread that still holds on to the shirt tails of my soul. Holding me back from allowing myself to risk being intimate, to strive to reach my true potentials.

You said, "people say suicide lets the perpetrators win.....this is not a contest.....i do not give a damn about who wins, i just need things to end.....". I hate that F*cking comment too. And I do agree with your feelings on this. That one comment burns me up. Its so Damn sinical and judgemental. To me, that truely insensitive comment means; 'If you end your life, your a loser, your a weak piece of shit.'
It validates the power of the perp and condenms the victim! I hope people stop using it.
Am I required to dedicate my whole F*cked up life to fighting an ENDLESS battle that I don't see anyone ever winning? The idea of 'winning over SA' could be a thread all to its self.

But there are also a great number here in the forum, chat and elsewhere in the world that continue on. They keep fighting the fight.
I have heard that success is measured by the simple act of ATTEMPTING, day after day, ie, fighting the fight; continueing the struggle; feeling the pain and sharing; speaking your mind and heart; laughing and crying...
And for me, posting here, is part of my fight. And I don't always get my point across, or I convey the wrong idea than what I meant. Or I was in a bad (negative) mood when I wrote it.

I find it difficult to convey meanings by simply writing it. Speech is so much more effective. With its tones, volume and inflections, its so much more accurate.

In not even knowing gunnar personally, but just reading his posts, has invoked deep and mostly painful memories. It awoke a sleeping lion in me. I feel quite strange. It is going to take me some time (how long?)to process this all. And in the mean time, I may be an Ass at times. Please forgive the transgrations.

Please michaelb, keep fighting the fight. Its not a contest, but U have a right to seek happiness. I thought my therapist was an idiot when he said, "It will get less bad over time".
It did get 'Less bad', its still not good either.
But perhaps it will, some day....
Blacken...

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#49561 - 03/01/03 01:48 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1250
Loc: Northern Ohio
somehow it posted the same thing tiwce

(I took it off, Lloydy )

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#49562 - 03/01/03 03:04 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Suicide is something that's affected me deeply. I've known too many people who've chosen this path at one time or another.

For me it was an unplanned and instant reaction to the shame of acting out, a product of the confusion I felt after the event.
It was probably half hearted as well, or maybe the despair set in when I couldn't find a length of hose to fit my Landcruiser's big exhaust pipe. But for whatever reason, I gave up the attempt very easily.
To go on and do it some other way would have been possible I know, but I think the realization that I was so fucking useless I couldn't even do that simple thing sent me into a level of despair where the effort to do something right became impossible - if that makes sense ?

I'm one of those that believe that the perp's win if we kill ourselves, I lost my childhood friend Mick like that. He was abused at the same school and took his life back at the school grounds many years later.
He lost everything, my only consolation is knowing that his perp ( different to mine ) threw himself off a bridge and killed himself a long time before Mick.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#49563 - 03/01/03 03:58 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
___________
CAUTION
___________

Here again, unknown to them while growing up, my daughters have been my teachers.

I learned on an intellectual level that all children need unconditional positive regard.

Even adults need that, but we hopefully have the skills to cope when we don't get that positive regard.

To have that skill as an adult, we have to have recieved unconditional positive regard as children.

I didn't recieve that as a child, but there is a saying in recovery circles to,"Fake it, till you make it." I was serious about wanting the best for my kids. Even though I knew down deep in my soul that I was shit, I could still see how precious they were. The shit, I came to believe I was, covered and hid the precious child I was born

My daughters have grown now. Their unconditional positive self-regard has brought them into full bloom in reaching their potential as adults. Oh, they have their self doubts, but they take risks that earn the respect of the people they gather into their lives and the people they work with. They dare to face life on it's own terms. I burst with pride just thinking about them.

The darker side of seeing them flower is how it glaringly illuminates... what I didn't get.

So now I've come to understand I have to re-write the legacy of what my family did to me, and parent the little boy in me at least like I parented my daughters. I parented them with patience, forgiveness, understanding and unconditional love....and joy.

If I had an adopted son who had had the experiences I've had, I would listen to his story of agony until he had healed enough that he no longer needed to tell me one more time. (The tears are puddling again for that young man whose heart was torn every which way but loose.)

If he then needs to start his story all over from scratch at some other time, I will lovingly listen and, no doubt, I will cry with him again. I would do this because, I especially, know that kind of pain.

It is a joy to care for him that way as it was a joy to be the loving father to my daughters.

When suicide again becomes an option for him, I will take him to someone who can help. When he is that rageful, I cannot take care of him on my own. I need to seek outside help.


There is another book by John Bradshaw titled, "Homecoming." In the book there are some very powerful exercises. I think they work better in a gruop. At the time I was in a men's support group with survivors of various kinds of childhood trauma. It was a self led group of men with no facilitator though the men understood well the need for safety. These were men seasoned in their recovery work.

I recorded my own voice reading the passages from the exercises in the book. Especially for me, it was powerful hearing my adult voice talking to little Bobby, taking him by the hand and going with him into the house he grew up in. I walked him up to my mother , father, and big brother and told them Bobby will not be coming back home because they did not know how to take care of him. I told them I would be taking care of him from now on.

With that, Bobby and I left together, hand in hand.

Bobby was in terror because of my history with him, but he sensed where my heart was and he was comforted with that. His eyes were filled with tears, he now had somebody to take better care of him.

I had some work to do to be able to live up to my commitment to him.


I ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO NOT DO THESE EXERCISES ALONE.


Surround yourself with people who can do that kind of work on their own personal issues. THEY CANNOT FIX ME. All they can do is listen and share their stories of pain or joy. That is also all I can do for them


The little boy in me already feels like his soul was murdered, as long as there is a murderous threat to his physical body he cannot feel the safety it requires to do the healing work on this terribly, terribly wounded soul of his.


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#49564 - 03/01/03 04:50 PM Re: is suicide really all that bad?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
One thing we must always remember is that there are alternatives to suicide.

None of them are easy, many will be short term, but none will be as final as suicide.

What we MUST do is talk.
I know that when we're in the depths of despair that sounds easy. Believe me I know it aint easy.
But we have to do it, we owe it to ourselves and those we love.

If we talk to someone we will find out that people do care about us, would you say to someone "go ahead, do it" No, of course you wouldn't, it's inbuilt into all of us to help someone in distress.
I say that even in the face of the evidence of all the abuse we've known between us. We've know some truly evil people but to say that takes evil into unknown levels.

Some people are isolated, have no family or loved ones. But there are people out there who care.
We care, the Samaritans are on the end of a 'phone, as are many other people who care. A stranger on the street will care, doctors care, a cab driver will take you to an emergency room rather than a high bridge.
All we have to do is tell someone, it's the first and strongest alternative.

Talking is the best weapon we have.

RJD, thanks for your reply there, it's stunning.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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