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#49361 - 02/18/06 06:48 AM Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I've heard or read it suggested, in some non-CSA cases involving a victim versus a perpetrator, that one necessary component of a victim's finding peace of mind is to forgive the perpetrator. This advice, it seems, is put forth by some very established psychologists or therapist. Does this reasoning apply to CSA? Do I have to forgive my abusers? I don't know. But I'll tell you one thing - I really don't think so.

As long as you don't let it consume your every waking moment, I don't think a grudge is necessarily a bad thing. Maybe my life hasn't been a walk in the park, but I take something a little like comfort in the idea that maybe my perps' lives have been a little worse.

I don't think I mentioned it here, but I spent the last week of this past January in Las Vegas. I was attending a science/skepticism conference. I was given some help, money-wise, by friends I had only known online. I met them, and met other people I've admired for much of my life. I had so much fun - and it didn't occur to me until quite lately, but I don't think I thought about abuse, or my perpetrators, even once for the whole entire week. You think my perpetrators can go a whole week without humoring their paranoia? Think they'll ever forget about what they did? Ever stop wondering just how much evidence is left that they didn't get rid of, or wondering if that new program really wipes their hard drive's data beyond recovery? Or wondering whether their new online "associate" is actually a cop in disguise? Wondering if they will ever be able to trust anybody for the rest of their lives? Gods, they must be miserable. I could almost feel sorry for them...but I don't. In fact, it almost gives me a sort of comfort. In a way, a child abuser is like a Slinky. For all intents and purposes they're useless; but somehow, seeing one get pushed down the stairs just makes you feel good.

So no, I haven't forgiven my perps - I don't see myself doing so, and I don't see it being necessary. Maybe one day I'll change my mind about that, but as things stand right now, I'm fairly resolved. They say that to forgive is divine - well, maybe. But I'm not a god, nor do I particularly aspire to be one. And my refusal to forgive my perpetrators may not make me a "better man". But it makes me a happy man. And the way I see it, there's enough other things that make me a better man than my perps, that I don't mind allowing myself this one tiny little sin.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49362 - 02/18/06 09:43 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Whicker Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 117
Loc: Pastures of Oregon
Forgive?

Never.

I only wish that, one day, I cross paths with them again. I've always wondered how difficult it would be to tear a human body apart, barehanded?

Whicker

_________________________
Esse Quam Videri
(To be, rather than to seem)

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#49363 - 02/18/06 02:48 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Melliferal,

My own view is that what adult abusers do to children is beyond forgiveness - well beyond. I don't see me forgiving the man who molested me for four years. He was feasting on other boys the same time he was abusing me, and so far as I know he continued to the time of his death in 1994.

I don't consider myself a cruel, unforgiving or bitter man. If I encountered an abuser who was willing to take responsibility for what he had done and showed genuine regret and contrition, that might be something else. Personally, I also find it difficult to fault a young or teenaged abuser, who himself has probably been abused and is acting out what he has been taught about himself.

At the same time, I have learned to stop investing precious emotional resources in the man who abused me. I have raged and thrown fits lots of times, but now I am done. He simply isn't worth it. I need my resources to heal myself and make up for opportunities lost in the past because of abuse. I choose to become a happy and integrated person who can give and receive love without pain and trauma, and that takes a lot of work.

I have learned to invest only this much in fretting about the abuser - nothing. Today I am back in the States and will go see his grave, but that is only to show Little Larry that he really is gone and that there is nothing more to fear. His power over me is gone and I am through with him forever. Or at least, that is the goal I am aiming for.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49364 - 02/18/06 08:08 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
how can anyone forgive without somehow saying hey it wasnt that bad i forgive you ,bullshit it was that bad! forgiving implies that i somehow understand what my perp did ,i'll never understand nor do i want to. to me it almost means taking some of the blame ,you know ? like saying well maybe i shouldnt have trusted my perp so easy if i hadnt then he would not have been tempted by me. maybe he just couldnt help it ,was my innocence my fault ?i dont think so adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49365 - 02/18/06 08:13 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
I do not believe forgiveness is at all necessary to healing. To think of it, our healing has nothing to do with our abusers. It is OURS. Yes, their actions make it necessary, but how we heal, it is has nothing to do with them, because it is not for them, it is for us. Why allow them to have any further control on us, specially in such a way to direct how we get better of things?

I had four abusers. One is dead now, and I regret that. I wish I could told him before he died that I give him forgiveness, because I know, somehow, just that he is decent man inside. Why he did what he do with me, I don't know, but I know he is decent. I just do. One is in prison, and I hope forever, because he is most close thing to real evil I can think of. But one, the one who 'arrange' the others to abuse me, and abuse me himself, he was one I was most afraid of still. And I forgave him, and told him I forgive him, last year. It was unreal thing, sometime I still can not believe I did that. But even that, face to face with him, it was for me, not for him. Him and his needs, him and his feelings, they had nothing to do with it. Recently, I have felt anger at him for one certain thing he do, which I did not do before. But it does not take away from the fact I forgive him, and I would the fourth man also if I know how to find him. Because that is what I felt I wanted and needed for healing. Not because anyone tell me I have to do it. Most people I knew were telling me no, you don't have to do that, and did not want me to.

So forgive for you, IF you want and need to. If not, then do nothing. It is your event, your healing, not theirs.

andrei


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#49366 - 02/19/06 01:23 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
I would find it very difficult to forgive my own abuser(s) or the abuser of any child. The best I can achieve is to feel sadness for them. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#49367 - 02/19/06 01:32 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
Quote:
Weigh the true advantages of forgiveness and resentment to the heart. Then choose.

Forgiveness is primarily for our own sake, so that we no longer carry the burden of resentment. But to forgive does not mean we will allow injustice again.
--the Buddha

I know this is always a touchy subject... when someone suggests forgiveness can help one heal it makes some folks a little angry. Those of you who know me know I would never anger anyone on purpose.

First, let me say that if you spoke to me five years ago I would say, "No way will I even consider forgiving that...[fill in the blank]"

I have forgiven my offender but I didn't forgive him for his sake I did it for me. I am free... I have put my burden down.

You do not have to put your burden down unless you want to or are ready. I am not better then anyone for doing it but nor am I wrong for doing it.

All I am saying is that I'm more care-free then I have ever been in my entire life and part of the reason for this is I have forgiven.


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#49368 - 02/19/06 01:40 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
My opinion on this will never change!

January 23rd - I went to court fully ready to give evidence against the pervert that groomed and abused me!

This was way back in 1969 - I have lived with it ever since!

I have had one major breakdown, aand several smaller ones because of what he did.

For the last 3 years of my Paternal Grandfather's life, our relationship shifted, and I did not trust him because of what the abuser did. When I went to visit him, I was just waiting to be abused (because everyone did it)!

There were many people over the years that I could not fully trust! Even now if someone does something nice, or says something nice, I have to fight against those silly thoughts that they want something 'more' from me than they say!

It's only because I can express how I feel about this to my friends that I am a Survivor. They support me even when my behaviour towards them is so bad (I test, push and challenge their loyalty).

I am healing, but the perv has no role in that!

I can understand that sometimes children will experiment with each other - what saddens me is how they reach that point.

What I can never understand is how an adult can abuse a child. What I mean by that is that you have one person that fully understands what is going on, and one that doesn't, i.e. they think they have just found a nice new friend that cares about them!

My dream is that someday this site will not be required!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49369 - 02/19/06 07:06 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Unfortunately (or, perhaps quite fortunately), I didn't know my perpetrators for longer than a few months, and I haven't seen them in years. They could be completely different people now - I don't know. They could also be even worse than they were before. Again, I don't know. And as little time as I knew them, I couldn't even make a guess. All I have to go on is what happened during those few months - a purposeful and protracted scheme to break down our inhibitions and get us to do what they wanted without telling anyone on the "outside" about it. It was sinister and intentional. And it worked, of course, but that's neither here nor there. It's this "intention" and premeditation which leads me to believe that there is no decency within these people. And to attack the defenseless shows that they are just as lacking in honor. Again, perhaps I saw something that was, in fact, a temporary stage. Perhaps they are true role models now. Perhaps they are time-traveling robots from Saturn. All I know is what I know. And what I know is that they were fully aware that what they were doing was wrong, and they did it anyway. They were aware enough to take steps to prevent discovery. They were also aware that what they wanted us to do was, as far as kids' behavior is concerned, unnatural enough that some conditioning was necessary to get us to do it. Get what I'm saying? There was just too much planning involved here. That's what prevents me from deeming these people worthy of the dignity of forgiveness, whether that forgiveness is really just "for me", or otherwise.

So, I suppose one could say I "hate" them. But it's not the rage-filled emotionally-charged storm kind of hate - I don't have a photo on my dartboard or anything, and I don't have daydreams about meeting them while having a baseball bat handy. They're villains, scoundrels - unworthy even of what little consideration I give them. If my heart were the sun, they would be sunspots - dark regions of (relatively) cold nothingness, isolated, while the rest of the surface burns brightly all around them. If I were asked to describe my feeling, I wouldn't so much call it "hate" as maybe contempt. How can I forgive someone from such a position? I can't - at least not now. As I said in my initial post, someday that might change. I'm not so foolish as to think that's impossible. But as it stands now, it's not happening.

Meanwhile, don't think I look down or misunderstand those who do decide to forgive. They're just at a point I'm not at yet. Maybe that point isn't "higher" or "lower" on the "healing scale" than where I am now - maybe it's sort of sideways, if that makes sense.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49370 - 02/19/06 10:21 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Today, I am at a juncture where I can say that yes I have forgiven, but I reached here only when I decided that to really move I had to forgive, or should I say, I bored carrying the emotional baggage and hurts from my abuse, so I decided to chuck it all out, one day and moved one free.In fact that was the most selfish act I have ever done.

But more important than that was to forgive myself, because till I did that my forgiving others was just a lip service. I really had a deep seated resentment against myself, just as I continued to hated others whom I had supposedly forgiven.

For I still balmed myself for all of it. and when I learned to forgive myself, I learned to forgive my abusers.

Just as love real foregiveness begins with forgiving one self first.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49371 - 02/19/06 07:13 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I do indeed agree that forgiving oneself is important and necessary.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49372 - 02/20/06 10:48 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
forgiveness...
to see another human being who, in their own pain, made such an evil msitake and harmed an innocent, but later profoundly and deeply regreted it...this, i could someday perhaps forgive, for they were human all along, but made an evil choice, yet felt that remorse for it. the predatory ones, though, they forsook their humanity a long time ago through their own choice. when i think of them, the rage knows no bounds. one cannot forgive what is no longer human, i think. yet, there is that very important thing that has been pointed out here...it is about our individual journey of healing and recovery that we make the choices we do. there are two that fit that predatory, inhuman stigma for me. i recall some time ago that i found out one of them was living ninety minutes away from me after thirty years of him being vaguely "elsewhere". now, he was practically right next door to me. i was going to go after him. i came here instead and starting talking abut it. this is where i found out what might be meant in making the choice for one own's self.

the rage i felt then is still so very here with me, however, it was that rage over an inhuman predator that almost drove me to be something i am not. i don't know if it is about forgiveness, i do know it is about finding a path of peace for one's self, and not comprimising what one is iinside. to go off and hunt this evil down and let my rage explode would have been wrong for me, the man i am and am trying to be. iintervention iin the defense of another innocent is competely differrent though. even then, it is about remaining true to who i am and who i am trying to be...a man who will see no other innocent harmed if i can iintervene, but also a man who will retain the integrity and dignity i have fought so damned hard to acheive. the predatory evil will not take that humanity from me. i believe i digressed lol. yes, theo is back brothers ;\)

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#49373 - 02/20/06 02:45 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Today I finally figured it out why listening to my abusers say sorry or repent was so important for me, because I would then no longer blame myself for it and understand that it was entirely his choice!

Today I feel I have freed myself.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49374 - 02/20/06 02:47 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
My responsibility laid in my response to the crime and to the crime itself, that was entirely his choice.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49375 - 02/20/06 10:35 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Splitting Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 62
As I have heard, until you forgive the perp, the per is still controlling you. I can conceptually undertand this thought. As a Christian, I am taught this throughout the new testament. But again, it is nor for the perp, but for you. There are also at least two others that must be forgiven...1) is you and 2) is God (or your higher power).

Oh by the way, the definition of "Perp" is really broad. If you are interested in learning about this from a Christian perspective I have two suggestions:

1) The Wounded heart by Dan Allender

2)Hope Recovery by Beth Moore. This is an incredible 5-cd set that walks through all of this. She spends an hour talking about the pain that God felt as your abuse was happening. Definitely worth the money.

Finally, my biggest issue regarding forgiveness is that I feel nothing toward my perps. I did have a recent rage session and I wanted to rip my mothers head apart - not only off. But for the three know perps, I feel nothing. How can you forgive what you do not fill??

Thanks for letting me rant.

Danny


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#49376 - 02/21/06 03:04 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Dewey Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 140
Loc: the sunshine state
I was just kicking around the idea of when Jesus asked the Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do" when people were killing Him. Seems to me that they knew what they were doing. But the far reaching ramifications? No they couldn't have known. He was just a pain in their ass. The guy who abused me? Would he have done what he did if he took the time to clear-headedly really think about the fact that it would impact me for the rest of my days on this planet? Man I gotta believe no, he just wanted to get his rocks off. He deserves to be forgiven because he's so pathetic. Whew! Thanks for the rant. D.

_________________________
I refuse to use my past as an excuse to not have a future.
My hero Dad; Trigger warning- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3Hyxuf5AE

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#49377 - 02/21/06 06:50 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I'm not so sure I agree.

I can forgive myself for, as a child, going along with the abuse because I could not have been expected to consider the implications and far-reaching ramifications of such things. However, adults - especially those who have, or are at least capable of having, their own families, don't get as much leeway. These perpetrators are not children, so I cannot excuse them for having a child's lack of consideration or foresight.

Maybe other perps are different, granted (for example, perps who indeed are children themselves). But I'm only dealing with mine. And again, as I mentioned, there was just too much planning here on the part of my perps. It wasn't a grab-the-kid-off-the-street thing; I was (I believe the relevant term would be) "groomed".

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49378 - 02/21/06 05:11 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Splitting Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 62
Just a MAJOR point of clarification.

Forgiving perps is not letting them off the hook. It is you releasing yourself from their control. They deserve every consequence that comes their way. That will be between them and the courts, society, their conscious (if they ever develop one), and finally, their God.

By no means am I supporting the allieviation of consequences for the perps. I am saying that until we can let it go, it has control over us.

the anger and desire for revenge is still controlling you. Do you want those assholes to have that power over the adult in each of you. I don't.

As a child we had no choice. As adults we do once we have reached a state in which our recovery will allow us to make that choice.

This forgiveness cannot be a token measure and can only come after we have all done a lot of gut wrenching recovery work. We may be 90 before we are able to do this. We may never get there...and that is ok. At least we are on the journey with a heart that is healing and willing to continue to heal.

Have a blessed day everyone.

Danny


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#49379 - 02/22/06 07:05 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
No chance. It was my anger that kept me alive (and very nearly killed me) but today I have learnt to direct that anger into more positive action. Forgiveness for my abusers in not in my vocabulary.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#49380 - 02/23/06 05:16 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Indeed; when I first came to recognize (at the time, it was almost something I had to "concede" to myself) my abuse as such, I became angry at all the wrong people. I was at different times antisocial and self-destructive (perhaps not dangerously so in the physical sense, but still). When I finally realized who really deserved that anger, the antisocial and self-destructive feelings and tendencies fell from my shoulders, and I left them behind in the dust.

Do I look to the future with the thought of revenge sitting on a back burner in my brain? You betcher. My perps belong in jail - but I cannot put them there; I don't remember enough of the important details to make it happen. Yet. Perhaps I never will - and that might make me even angrier - or perhaps I might. Sometimes things fall together. Meantime, I sate my anger by doing what admittedly little I can do to see others like my perps be brought to justice. I can see a hundred other pedophiles hauled in and jailed, and it will never be enough until my own sense of justice is fulfilled, and there's only one way that can happen.

In any case, it takes resolve - and forgiving, forgetting, marginalizing, or ignoring my abuse in favor of some pretense at serenity threatens that resolve. How can one remain honest to himself by "forgiving" his perpetrator one the one hand, and longing for (and working for) legal justice on the other? By dissociating. By transferring the injustice - making it no longer an injustice against himself, but rather an injustice against "society" of which he happens to be a part. And "society" is not "myself", therefore the perp's going to jail may be important but not as important as it used to be. "Life goes on".

Not I. I am not one of the bees I keep. This crime was committed against me, and I must have satisfaction. Seeing my perps in jail is the only way to obtain closure. It's my "White Buffalo". My own personal Dark Tower, for the King fans among you.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49381 - 02/23/06 01:59 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
dark tower cool ,roland rocks

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49382 - 02/23/06 04:20 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Dewey Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 140
Loc: the sunshine state
I told the authorities and my perp went to jail. It was the right thing to do. But it didn't bring a change in my psyche. That was work that I had to do. I simply don't have the time or energy to remain hateful. D

_________________________
I refuse to use my past as an excuse to not have a future.
My hero Dad; Trigger warning- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3Hyxuf5AE

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#49383 - 02/23/06 07:12 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
OKIE MIKE Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 982
Loc: HULBERT OK
God may forgive him , but I NEAVER WILL .
If I ever find him he is a dead man.

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

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#49384 - 02/23/06 10:25 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Derdlecar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1314
Loc: Ogden Utah, USA
Melliferal,

There were four perps in my life, or was it five? Anyway, I haven't forgiven them. They never asked and even if they did I don't think I could. I don't have that kind of power. I have let it go, or at least I am working on that. By letting it go, they no longer have control over me. God can forgive them if they ask. If not, they can roast in hell. Either way, I'm not going to worry about it; I have better things to do.

Love ya

Darrel

_________________________
If a man would get his life on track, he must first go back to the place where it was derailed.

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#49385 - 02/23/06 10:31 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
Forgiveness why do such a stupid act rather tell your perp to pick out his bullet pay for it then take him out to the woods and say run for it then as the perp goes to make a run for it the perp turns into "White Buffalo" that is true forgiveness the right way. no god can help in any way what we went thru and if their was a god where the F*** was this so called god there is no god keep that junk to your own opinion no need for it here keep it in the other forum where it belongs not on a thread like this we all have our opinion and mine is "No forgiveness,Pain for the perp,Firing Squad debt repayal"


Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#49386 - 02/24/06 01:22 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Andrew,

A long time ago, a little bit before the abuse actually, I met someone who gave me some advice which I feel is very pertinent. He told me that people really only "win" in games. In real life, victory can sometimes be as costly as defeat. The winners, he said, may get to write all the history, but they also have to dig all the graves.

People can be angry, and full of spite for other people. Even the best of us feel this way; that's why I don't think harboring some anger or desire for revenge against my perpetrators MUST be considered as the perpetrator "controlling you". However, the question of the perpetrator is one that may not be best solved with the bullet. It might make you feel better - at first. After all, you're the "winner", aren't you? But people who kill other people are still criminals, and no excuse is really good enough for being a criminal. Especially killing someone - that's one task that leaves you "digging graves" for the rest of what's left of your life. And my friend, that's really the perpetrator's victory - he won't have to dig a single one.

Besides, dead men don't feel shame. And that's where the real justice is waiting, is it not?

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49387 - 02/24/06 03:12 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
No one said anything about killing the perp that is what you said,having the perp buy their own bullet and taking them out to the woods and telling them to run could mean almost anything what if a certain person wanted to have some fun with the perp not necessarily what you referred to but rather target practice.

Also it all depends on how you classify "Winning" that could mean almost anything too especially if you have info that could make your mind up no matter what evidence is presented to you. if other lives are in "jeopardy" then action must be taken before those lives are placed in "harms way" if you have been told something by someone and that info classifies as pertinent info in regards to the mission at hand then you take that info and digest it and put it to use as it may lay no matter what the circumstances are surrounding it if it helps "Win the battle" and your still left standing afterward even if that means digging a grave at least you know that the person you just put in the ground won't ever harm another "soul" and you won't have to worry and carry that burden anymore inside of you knowing that info and having to classify the person as an "iminent threat to loss of life with collateral damage"

Why would we want the perp to dig a grave that is not what we all want from these animals they should never have that task before them.Dead men don't feel shame but they do feel pain and they will forever be who they are no matter whether dead or alive especially if they are on a list regardless of if they are brought back to life or not they are forever marked along with their grave stones


Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#49388 - 02/24/06 06:09 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by andrew76:
No one said anything about killing the perp that is what you said,having the perp buy their own bullet and taking them out to the woods and telling them to run could mean almost anything what if a certain person wanted to have some fun with the perp not necessarily what you referred to but rather target practice.
Well either way, what ends up happening is Someone-Who-Is-Not-The-Perp goes to jail. That's not the way it's supposed to go.

Quote:
Originally posted by andrew76:
Also it all depends on how you classify "Winning" that could mean almost anything too especially if you have info that could make your mind up no matter what evidence is presented to you. if other lives are in "jeopardy" then action must be taken before those lives are placed in "harms way" if you have been told something by someone and that info classifies as pertinent info in regards to the mission at hand then you take that info and digest it and put it to use as it may lay no matter what the circumstances are surrounding it if it helps "Win the battle" and your still left standing afterward even if that means digging a grave at least you know that the person you just put in the ground won't ever harm another "soul" and you won't have to worry and carry that burden anymore inside of you knowing that info and having to classify the person as an "iminent threat to loss of life with collateral damage"
A dangerous way of thinking. I get this sort of explanation a lot when dealing with people who study the martial arts because they think they can use it to defend themselves. Much of the time, what they try to call self-defense is actually assault, but nevermind that. Most of these people, when asked, will tell you that if they are ever "attacked", then it is necessary often to seriously injure or even kill the attacker, and consequences be damned. The relevant pearl is, "better to be judged by twelve (jurors) than be carried by six (pallbearers)". What these people fail to realize is, it isn't that black and white, ever. You can, in fact, choose to be neither judged by 12 nor carried by 6. But these people want to look and sound macho; pay them no mind. The moral of the story: there's more than one way to stop a "dangerous" person from hurting anyone. Volunteering for prison in exchange for saving lives can sound noble - but if you understand that you can save those same lives without volunteering for prison, then the former is no longer noble, but ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally posted by andrew76:
Why would we want the perp to dig a grave that is not what we all want from these animals they should never have that task before them.Dead men don't feel shame but they do feel pain and they will forever be who they are no matter whether dead or alive especially if they are on a list regardless of if they are brought back to life or not they are forever marked along with their grave stones
Dead men feel nothing. No shame, no guilt, no pain. They don't care who remembers them, they don't care about post-mortem press coverage, they don't care what sort of lists they used to be on, or the families or victims they leave behind. They don't care about anything. They're dead. They don't have eyes to see the way other people look at them, nor ears to hear what living people say about them.

A perpetrator in prison for a sexual offense, however, will feel shame. They may or may not feel guilt, but they will feel pain - probably most nights, if not every night. They will suffer the consequences of a life-long stigma, even if they do make it out of prison. Their lives will be a living hell. Which, if you don't believe in some kind of real hell (perfectly fine, that), should be something to take delight in. Being not-convicted of (insert felony here) would make that delight easier to take. I couldn't imagine being happy in prison, no matter what the news. Also (at the risk of being too frank) to consider is the fact that a follow prisoner, when committing a certain offense against your person, won't be sympathetic just because the same thing may have happened when you were sommat younger.

And it's very hard for a felon to get a job these days.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#49389 - 02/24/06 03:05 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
This thread has really gone heavy since I last posted to it, and I thought I would just put in a few words directed you you, Andrew76.

I understand your anger bro, and I wouldn't deny you your right to it, not in 1000 years. I would also never tell you that you should forgive the perp - that's up to you. From your past posts I have some idea of all you have suffered and lost. It's not meant to be this way.

I would just ask you to think honestly if you feel you would gain much from the kind of retaliation you describe. Perhaps at the moment you would feel you had your revenge - okay. But would it help you to heal? I'm not sure I see how that could happen.

Another point would be this. You strike me as a good guy. You have endured a lot, sure, and you are holding onto a lot of bitterness and anger - but that's something else. You really seem to be a good and decent person. Wouldn't the kind of revenge you talk about take a terrible toll from you? I suspect you would eventually see that even in death the perp has won again. That would be a terrible thing to discover.

Just some thoughts Andrew. I hope you can feel that you are appreciated and cared about here.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49390 - 02/24/06 09:28 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I am almost free of my perp - it's not because I have forgiven him! I haven't and never will now! It's because I am in the process of sending him to jail!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49391 - 02/24/06 10:10 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Zipser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 351
Loc: Connecticut
I'm with Rik on this one. I couldn't send that POS to jail but I could and did bring a civil suit against him and won.

Since the time of the settlement, almost 9 months ago, I've been focusing on other, more important things and don't spend a minute thinking about forgiveness. I'm free now.

What has freed me was putting the responsibility, shame and anxiety at the feet of the one who deserved it all along. People know about this guy now and that's something he'll have to deal with. That will be his punishment. His secret is no more.

I AM FREE!

Regards,

Zipser

_________________________
"I stand proud that the boy so badly damaged managed to get me this far and I will honor him and myself for being a survivor." - A member

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#49392 - 02/25/06 04:12 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Andrew,

I think I do understand what you are saying and how you feel. I guess I would just stress that you have a child in your future and that child will need his Dad.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49393 - 02/25/06 07:49 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
Let me ask this question to you all at what cost do survivors and victims forgive their abusers? I am not saying forgiveness is a bad thing but why forgive a person if they haven't even apologized for what they made you go thru while a child and what you have had to endure from childhood to adulthood and what we as survivors deal with on a daily basis thanks to what we went thru as someone who lived the worst by no choice of our own doing.

What would you have to say to maybe a new comer to the board that is reading this thread for the very first time that is just starting the process and later on will be addressing "Forgiveness" along their path of healing along with what experiences have you had to deal with along the road to get to the point of forgiveness or to not forgive the abuser?

I am not saying anyone is stupid if they forgive their abuser i am saying the act of forgiving the abuser is stupid opens another can of worms but will not go into that one as i am a silenced voice.


Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#49394 - 02/25/06 02:47 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
We're all different people and we've all suffered different types of abuse. Forgiving a perp will be a healing move for some of us, for others, it won't.

The only thing that really has given me pause about not forgiving a perp is a religious perspective that was suggested by wojax1. In our discussions on this very same subject, he said that we have to forgive if we want God in our heart, becuause God won't share our hearts with anger, resentment, hatred, desire for revenge, etc.

I had decided to forgive my perps a lonnngggg time ago, but my T suggested that I may have done it too soon, becuase he thinks that I have yet to realize how badly I was hurt. So......I have withdrawn my forgiveness and set it on "pause" for the meantime.


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#49395 - 02/25/06 03:22 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
There is also the question of what we mean by forgiveness. When I think of forgiveness I think of something from myself that I offer to another person as a kind of concession.

Thinking in those terms I don't see me ever forgiving the man who abused me. He's dead, he was a sadist (as my T now tells me), and so far as I know he was an abuser all his life. I know of five other friends of mine whom he also abused, and that must be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Others might think of forgiveness in terms of reconciliation. That's not in the cards for me, because I think of that as a two-way thing and the man who hurt me is dead.

I have also heard of forgiveness being described as somehow telling yourself that you are finished with the abuser and have no more thought for him. Okay, I can see how that would be a good idea, but for me that has nothing to do with forgiveness.

I know there is also the religious take on forgiveness, but to be honest I don't feel that one in my heart. I consider myself to be a religious and spiritual person, but I don't at the same time feel any sense of obligation to forgive a monster who would do such horrific things to children just for the sake of his own gratification. If there is a contradiction here, I am happy to live with it.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49396 - 02/25/06 05:38 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Quote:
Originally posted by shadowkid:
how can anyone forgive without somehow saying hey it wasnt that bad i forgive you ,bullshit it was that bad! forgiving implies that i somehow understand what my perp did ,i'll never understand nor do i want to. to me it almost means taking some of the blame ,you know ? like saying well maybe i shouldnt have trusted my perp so easy if i hadnt then he would not have been tempted by me. maybe he just couldnt help it ,was my innocence my fault ?i dont think so adam
I 'forgave' one of my abusers, face to face. It was not taking blame for what he did. It was not telling him, oh it wasn't so bad. It was me telling him 'I survived what you and others did to me, and I am a good person. I am living with it. And you must live with it from the other end. I would much rather be me then you.' No 'I'm sorry I made you do this to me' or shit as that.


Quote:
Originally posted by andrew76:
Let me ask this question to you all at what cost do survivors and victims forgive their abusers? I am not saying forgiveness is a bad thing but why forgive a person if they haven't even apologized for what they made you go thru while a child and what you have had to endure from childhood to adulthood and what we as survivors deal with on a daily basis thanks to what we went thru as someone who lived the worst by no choice of our own doing.

Forgiveness was for me, not for him. No, he had not apologized, he probably never will. But to face him, face to face, and say 'well, you gave it your best and I am still here, and I can live with all that you put on me, and still be strong and successful', that was ME taking back power from him. I already said, no one HAS to forgive. And it does not diminish the facts of the past, or that the abuse was worst torture of my life. But what cost? It would cost me much more fear, nightmares, therapy and medicine to NOT done what I did. The 'cost' is different for each person. Please do not say that for someone to do forgiveness is stupid. I am not stupid. And I am much better since I done that, so it must be right for me.

Andrei


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#49397 - 02/25/06 07:10 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
andrei what you have done is monumental not stupid ,if you have forgiven then that was the best thing for you to do it takes more courage than i have ,it would be great to leave all the anger behind ,to feel peace ,although i may never forgive i ad mire anyone who can adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49398 - 02/26/06 09:39 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
The most important thing as a survivor is how we cope. If we spend our lives full of recriminations and bitterness, then we've failed ourselves. Hatred will consume us and it's wasted emotion. Ideally, in some way, we should turn hatred, despair and conflict into something more positive. I'm not sure how to forgive the seemingly "unforgivable", as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I haven't been able to do it. But I think that somehow keeping that as a kind of personal spiritual goal will help lead me to an inner peace and resolution. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#49399 - 02/27/06 09:28 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Andrei,
thank you for sharing your empowering story. And forgiveness for me has been my most empowering tool as it gave me my life back. And only when you have crossed the bridge you know what lies ahead.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49400 - 02/27/06 10:37 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Guys,

I think forgiveness doesn't justify the actions of the perps, and Danny said this. Forgiveness can let me stop feeling much pain, but at the same time I think that the perps will live a life of misery.

I have felt lately that I forgave myself for the fact that I was caught by the abusers' will. Also I try to live my life the best way I can. I think a survivor doesn't necessarily need to "be better" than their abusers in all respects. I wouldn't go to my abusers, showing that I am more succesful and healthy... I'm afraid of that meeting to be, but I also wouldn't say to their faces that I've forgiven all the sh*t. It's not my job, I think.

Thanks for this topic,

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#49401 - 02/27/06 12:19 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
what is the cost to survivors of not forgiving the predator? that is something we all must assess alone within our own heart for tha tis the only place it can be really perceived. the rage i feel against the ones who did what they did to me and my sister knows no bounds at times. all i do know is that for a few brief moments/days in time, the rage was all consuming and i know i would have crossed the line of my own humanity gladly if the opportunity presented itself. to me, that is the greatest cost for me personally. there remains that threat that i would snap if i cannot make peace with this. does this mean forgiveness? i don't know. all i do know is that i came back from the brink of becoming something i abhor because of a rage i cannot comprehend for what was done to innocents.

rage is not justice...it is its own personal choice of the abyss

and that is where i find my strength to stand against it. the abyss of what the rage represents will not claim me for i am better than it and them, the predators. i will not forsake my humanity by giving in to the rage. of course, this is nothing directly to do with forgiveness as a topic in this thread, but it is my own journey i am trying to convey...with my usual thousand word way \:D

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#49402 - 02/27/06 07:03 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
I just wanted to add my words to the already said. I think we all have very different situations regarding who and where our perps are. For instance, some of the m are dead, but the others are alive and live in the same city with you, or in the same region... My perps were soldiers (I wouldn't like to go further in the details of my story, which is in the Survivors Stories board). I know according to my impressions pretty well that they've gone through the horrible war. They will suffer from that, and that's for sure.

I don't need to know more, and, men, it may sound bad that I did find the explanation of their actions towards me, but I did. That's a part of the forgiveness. It is my opinion. However I learned from this thread that we all go through our own experiences of dealing with the abusers. Also I'll just add what I've said earlier in this thread by saying I don't think I am going to purposefully demonstrate to the abusers how good I am. It's not what I think I have to do.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#49404 - 03/23/06 07:09 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
BFREE Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 15
Loc: CA
Jesus said (paraphrase), if your brother sin against you and turn ask for forgiveness, forgive him

I guess that puts the ball in my court. I really have no feeling either way, I don't hate the guy. I have suffered a great deal much of it not my fault. I am certain that his world is a living hell as well. I am willing to forgive, given the above circumstances were satisfied, untill then there is nothing to forgive except myself. I can forgive anyone quite easily but forgiving myself is the real question.


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#49406 - 03/23/06 02:20 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
As it is often put here, forgiveness begins with oneself and forgiving the abuser is a big part of it and unless we learn to do that we cant learn to love ourselves fully and live the life we were meant to.

Until then we live the life our abusers condemned us to, they win not us, no matter how powerful we might feel while not forgiving, it is our loss, day by day, moment by moment, till we decide we have had enough and become willing to start afresh by forgiving all that has hurt us.

Ironically it is not until we forgive we learn what we are meant to learn thru the experience of abuse. Because true healing and empowerment, begins only after we have stopped hating ourselves and and forgiven the abuser, that way we can free ourselves from the cycle of abuse and lead a free life.

Forgiveness IS the doorway to freedom and we all may open it when ever we feel willing, when ever we feel like giving ourselves a fresh chance.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49407 - 03/23/06 02:46 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
never! shadow

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49409 - 03/23/06 05:33 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Forgiveness is the path, we all walk on when we are ready for it, so please do it at your own pace. Gods time is eternity.

But it is possible only when we want to go beyond the experience, and that is when life happens to man.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49410 - 03/23/06 05:40 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Forgive and forget.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49412 - 03/23/06 07:31 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by BFREE:
Jesus said (paraphrase), if your brother sin against you and turn ask for forgiveness, forgive him

I guess that puts the ball in my court.
When was the last time your perp asked for forgiveness?

Perpetrators don't ask for forgiveness until after the trial. They will not bring it up before they're caught because they're hoping you've forgotten, or aren't thinking about the abuse, and so they don't want to jog your memory (especially since they're probably abusing someone else, and so are in a most compromising position). When they are caught, they don't ask forgiveness because they want to be found not guilty, and asking forgiveness would jeopardize the chance of that happening.

Finally, when they're found guilty, they ask forgiveness because they want the judge to think they are truely remorseful, thus handing down a more lenient sentence.

The perpetrator doesn't care about you, or whether you've "forgiven" him or her. If they did, they wouldn't have done what they did to begin with. And I don't think I'm being too overly cynical by suggesting that a perp suddenly "seing the light" in the couple of days after convinction and before sentencing is nuts. I grew up in Texas - I know what bullsh*t smells like.

A perfect case in point is the former teacher who raped one of her middle-school students. The charge was dropped because the victim was so affected by it, those surrounding him decided that a trial was not in his best interests. She was already convincted of some of the charges already, so that's good. But what happened, after the last of her trials were sorted out? "Oh, I'm so sorry, I hope the young man can move on with his life. I'm mentally unstable, and I'm accepting treatment - you all should feel sorry for me for having this mental illness and understand that the abuse was not my fault." Sure lady. An apology with qualifier. Does that sound repentant?

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49413 - 03/23/06 08:10 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
MORNING STAR POSTED

"Ironically it is not until we forgive we learn what we are meant to learn thru the experience of abuse. Because true healing and empowerment, begins only after we have stopped hating ourselves and and forgiven the abuser, that way we can free ourselves from the cycle of abuse and lead a free life."


Sorry to say i do not agree with this phrase I do believe that we can learn from the abuse experience without having to bring up the "F" word.True empowerment and true healing can happen even before the "F" word comes into play so i do not agree with that phrase either.

MORNING STAR POSTED

"Forgiveness IS the doorway to freedom "


I do not agree with this eitheri do not belive that the "F" word has to come into play in order for a door of freedom to be opened to the survivor.

Further more "The F WORD" I have to say not on your last dying breathe.

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

Top
#49414 - 03/23/06 08:33 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
BFREE Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 15
Loc: CA
Yes Melliferal, I guess my standpoint is that I don't really care about the perp either way. In a fantasy world if I were approached and asked for forgiveness I would grant it. Not for the perps sake or for my own sake. More out of obedience to my Savior and my personal spiritual convictions.

Right now, I'm too wore down to hate anyone including the people who have harmed me. However, this is all new to me and I suspect there is a healthy amount of rage lurking beneath the pain.


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#49416 - 03/24/06 01:39 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
BFREE Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 15
Loc: CA
Amen Bro. Zen, I felt empowered by your post.


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#49417 - 03/24/06 01:56 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I have forgiven myself!

How do I ever forgive a multiple abuser that still tries to deny what he has done!

Why should I even consider it, when he is described in court, as an elderly gentleman answering for indiscretions that took place over 30 years ago?

It's bollocks, and I hope his drop off!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49418 - 03/24/06 07:00 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
God judges no one, for him there is no difference between a sex offender or a saint, so why am I so reluctant in forgiving the offender, because then I get to take the moral high ground, I get to be the right one, and that is an awful lot of power to relinquish.

Yes we all pay for our karma, but who says I had not been a criminal in a previous life, or would be in next one.

Ever wondered why God is so non-judgemental? That is because he knows that what we did does not define who we are.

That I believe is what makes forgiveness so difficult, because once you have forgiven you dont get to be the better one, you know that in Gods eyes we are just the same.

So my higher moral ground is just a bubble, I am living in, and the sooner I allow it to burst the better.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49419 - 03/24/06 07:22 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
I am a firm believer in the theory of Karma, so that way what I am going thru right now, is what my previous karma have created for me.

So if I want to live better in future, I can always create better.

Life is a just a means to learn that.

But when we get out of the sense of right or wrong, good or the bad we also get to step out of the cycle of karma and of birth and death.

No wonder, it takes us many many life times to learn that. Then again, Gods time is eternity.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49420 - 03/24/06 12:59 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
The "F" word has nothing to do with your so called god,if god was really in existence things like what we all suffered would never have been allowed.There is no god because if there were I would not have to live with the after effects of my abuse the rest of my life.You are going to have to prove there is a god but do not tie in the "F" word just stirs things up for those that do not want to hear or see references to your so called god.

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#49421 - 03/24/06 01:51 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Wow. This thread has really spread into a lot of areas since I last checked in on it. This will reiterate a bit of what I have said before.

I am not willing to forgive the man who abused me, not now and probably not ever, though I of course don't know how I will feel years from now. It isn't because I am full of hate and anger at him. I am past that and I am trying to focus on my own healing. My unwillingness to forgive him is based on my reasoning that in order to do that I would have to devote emotional resources to him - I would have to allow him some meaning and role in my life and decide what place in my life forgiving him would give to him. Why should I do that? I never meant anything to him.

What works for me is to see him as what he was - a cruel vicious predator whose life was devoid of positive meaning. I say that now just as a statement of fact, without hate or anger. I have no time for him; he's nothing to me. I will work on the issues he bequeathed to me, yes, but he himself will get nothing from me.

On forgetting, Morning Star, in my own view that would be a negative step. To forget is to say it didn't matter. It did matter! My life was forever changed by abuse. I also don't want to forget because I think that survivors can and should play an active role working for change. Evil should be challenged wherever it appears, and we can take up that challenge without allowing it to define us. We can do that and still recover and lead joyful fulfilling lives in which the legacy of abuse no longer harms us.

I would like to close by saying that this is a highly charged topic and some might be triggered or provoked by the views of others. I would just say that this is a powerful topic that we will face each in our own way, and I honor and respect views that disagree with mine. This is just how I see it.

In this context, Andrew, I would say that I understand the power and extent of your feelings. I am not trying to convince you that your view is wrong or needs to change. That's for you to decide. I would just ask you this: Does it help you to devote so much rage and hatred to the abuser? Does it lead you forward or hold you back? Does it give him a hold on you even now, which he otherwise would not have. Just some ideas, my friend.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49422 - 03/24/06 02:24 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
what if after 10 years i had forgiven my abuser? he would still be out there hurting kids ,my anger and my hate put him back in prison where he belongs . if i had not kept my anger he would be hurting the 15 year old boy that he got caught with as we speak shadow

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49423 - 03/24/06 03:40 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Grunty1967b Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 826
Loc: Australia
Well, here’s perhaps a different spin again from me.

I believe I have worked through a level of forgiveness towards my abuser, but now and then I feel intense anger and feelings of hatred (towards him or what he did to me?). That shows me perhaps there are levels of forgiveness I still need to work through.

It has been my personal choice to choose to forgive. It certainly doesn’t mean to me that I’m saying it’s all ok now and it was all ok back then (as far as what happened). It was wrong then and will always be and should never have happened and he should never have done what he did to me.

It also doesn’t mean I’ve gone along the lines of “forgive and forget”. How can I forget? I have daily reminders by the ways in which my life has been messed up.

My decision to forgive has come out of me knowing that if I harbour ‘unforgiveness’ in my heart it takes up my time, energy, thoughts etc so, unlike Larry (Roadrunner) I don’t see it as giving the abuser my time my choosing to try the whole forgiveness thing. On the contrary, he’s got my time and thoughts if I don’t. It’s now one less thing I have to carry around and that’s gotta be helping me.

My final disclaimer: this is what’s right for me. You all have the right to form your own views and ways of dealing with all this. I wish you all well on your own personal choices.


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#49424 - 03/24/06 09:38 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Shadow,

Quote:
what if after 10 years i had forgiven my abuser? he would still be out there hurting kids ,my anger and my hate put him back in prison where he belongs . if i had not kept my anger he would be hurting the 15 year old boy that he got caught with as we speak.
Good point, and you would know your own case best. But can I suggest that anger and hate don't achieve anything positive, except by coincidence? The road of hate and fury would be something like the "baseball bat solution" that Markgreyblue once talked about here. What if what you achieved was attained by a tenacious determination to see justice done. What if you are just pure and simple a good and resolute individual? Should you deny yourself that victory?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49425 - 03/25/06 03:16 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Forgiveness helps us forget the pain and the trauma we went thru, so that each time we think of our abuse or the abuser, we no longer loose our peace, serenity and composure. That has been the gift of forgiveness for me, having said that let me add that this doesn't mean that I have 'forgotten' the experience itself, NO, that is my guide now, and not my tormentor. I have taken away the power from it, infact I'm taking power from it, it reminds me of what not to be, by respecting all power in life, my own and those of others.

But of course it is our personal choice whether we want to forgive or believe in God for that matter. I dont have to convert anyone, life does that for us. We just have to live the best life we can, right now.

The only challenge is to see life as a benevolent companion. That itself takes away the sting away from life, and makes it painless, and I for one would definitely want that for me.

And after spending a lifetime in darkness and pain I wonder why did I take so long to reach here, and then something reminds me it all happens in Gods time.

And that is my prayer, May we all find the happiness and peace we all deserve.

What I am most glad about here is that I have finally found some people who talk about forgiveness after walking the path and after receiving all its gifts.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49427 - 03/26/06 08:13 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
MORNING STAR

Quote:
_________________________________________________
Forgiveness helps us forget the pain and the trauma we went thru
_________________________________________________

Sometimes forgiveness does not take the pain nor the trauma alone sometimes it follows us the rest of our lives no matter what we do as a survivor whether we go to a shrink and sit on the couch and pay the therapist 300.00 to 500.00 a session and open the bottle of pain and trauma or if we find our own way of dealing with the pain and trauma without professional help.

See for some of us we have physical damage and scars that will never go away from the abuse and no matter if we forgive or not those scars and the damage will carry over from the abuse for the rest of our lives and we will have to be reminded of the abuse and what the abuser did to us daily every time we look at ourselves in the mirror or every time others look at us.Forgiveness cannot take that pain or trauma away it only gets worse by the day and many times that is why we see survivors take themselves out of this world and out of the abuse and away from the life they once lived sometimes it would be better for those people to no longer have to suffer and no matter what anyone says my personal belief is those survivors that the pain and trauma cannot be taken away from those survivors should be allowed to end their pain and suffering as they need to no matter how they so choose to end their pain and end the living day in and day out of constantly seeing the trauma on their physical body.

MORNING STAR
Quoted:
_________________________________________________
And after spending a lifetime in darkness and pain I wonder why did I take so long to reach here, and then something reminds me it all happens in Gods time.
_________________________________________________

I do not concur with this statement that it happens in "G'S" time,i do not belive that it take a lifetime to be in darkness and pain.

Sometimes it is the survivors own choosing to remain in places where they feel comfortable even if that means living in suppresion land and not dealing with the most obvious thing that should be dealt with which is, the healing from the abuse so the person can move from victim to survivor hopefully in a much better way instead of just calling themselves a survivor without actually dealing with the abuse.

My hope is that all of us as survivors can find healing,comfort and peace as we heal and as well talk to those survivors that have gone before us that offer their hand of assistance to help us along the path of healing and survivorship.

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#49428 - 03/27/06 03:32 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16268
OK. I've watched this thread ebb and flow for weeks now and am going to put in my $0.02 worth.

The word "Forgive" implies that someone has asked for forgiveness. One cannot forgive if no request has been made for that action. One can let it go, refuse to harbor bad feelings, etc., but it takes two individuals to bring about the act of forgiveness.

Perhaps I'm just superimposing my own definition on the word, but that's the way I see it.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49429 - 03/27/06 05:16 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Obviously my observations are only meant for fellow beings you are willing to forgive and use that path, but then if you are not willing to right now, feel free to skip it. ;\)

Like most victims I too spent a lifetime justifying non forgiveness, till the day I realied that if I am non forgiving,I am non-forgiving towards myself as well.

So take you pick man its your life afterall, but chill!

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49430 - 03/27/06 05:50 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Don-NY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 546
Loc: Long Island, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by walkingsouth:
OK. I've watched this thread ebb and flow for weeks now and am going to put in my $0.02 worth.

The word "Forgive" implies that someone has asked for forgiveness. One cannot forgive if no request has been made for that action. One can let it go, refuse to harbor bad feelings, etc., but it takes two individuals to bring about the act of forgiveness.

Perhaps I'm just superimposing my own definition on the word, but that's the way I see it.

Lots of love,

John
John,

This is a very important point. If someone hasn't asked for forgiveness, then it is possible that they don't think they need it.

Then again, there is the idea that those who don't ask for forgiveness are those who need it most. But such arguments are for the theologians and philosophers.

You can consider "true" forgiveness to be a two way street, but I don't think it is anything different if or when we forgive someone without their asking.

Is it something less? I don't think so. In fact I think that we forgive all sorts of things, all the time, without ever being asked. It's almost a staple of modern life.

I am inclined to believe that forgiving without being asked is an expression of the strength, trust and faith in ourselves that we develop.

Or it is a choice we make because we believe that it will be a healing, positive action for ourselves.

I think your definition is too limiting. And, I admit that your words "feel" like they are negating and minimizing choices I (and others here) have made with respect to forgiveness, so I wanted to be sure to let you know how I view and use forgiveness - at least the type not preceeded by a request.

Donald

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

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#49431 - 03/27/06 05:51 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
time2heal Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 46
There is a continuity between all of the posts here. It is about releasing the pain of abuse. Everyones path is different. The end result is the same to be right within yourself. Right now I cannot put my abuser in jail. So I still must release my pain. If my abuser were to abuse again or it was 15 years ago I think he would be going to jail. I have a choice now and that is wether to expose him or not. If I expose I hurt and he hurts. If I do not expose and give "Forgiveness" I take away the rage and pain from myself. I do not know my path yet but I am seeking it. If I am mistaken guys tell me.


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#49432 - 03/27/06 12:59 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I think John (WalkingSouth) is onto something important here, and I would, if I may, rephrase it slightly to get to the point I want to raise.

John suggests that forgiveness is an act of communication. I seek forgiveness by taking some action myself: admitting guilt, expressing regret, making compensation, whatever. I do this by way of seeking a response from the person I have wronged. I want him to say he "forgives" me.

Donald sees this as too limiting and feels that "forgiving without being asked is an expression of the strength, trust and faith in ourselves that we develop". Or perhaps it's "a choice we make because we believe that it will be a healing, positive action for ourselves".

Andrew76, however, speaks of the "F word" and is entirely opposed to the possibility of ever forgiving the abuser of a child.

But could I ask here: "What IS forgiveness?" What am I saying if I tell someone "I forgive you"? Perhaps we disagree here because we have different assumptions about what it is we are talking about giving.

For me, a definition that sees forgiveness as having something to do with a decision to move forward and just not allow the abuser's past deeds to harm me anymore has nothing to do with forgiveness at all. That's my determination to heal, not my willingness to forgive.

Also, the man who abused me is dead. Can I forgive the dead, assuming I would want to?

I'm not sure I have my definition yet, but I will admit that right now I am not in a place to give this much attention. Whatever forgiveness is, I doubt that I would ever be willing to give it. But I have changed in many ways over the past year, and perhaps I will change on this one as well.

This is really a valuable and thought-provoking thread. It's great that such a delicate and potentially triggering subject can be discussed so calmly here among us.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49433 - 03/27/06 02:10 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
for me the defination of forgivness ,means saying somehow i understand the abusers actions ,that i can rationalize what he did ,that there is some excuse that takes the blame away. its like saying ok what happened wasnt that bad and i can forget it.but can we forget it? no! how can you forgive if you cant forget? forgivness is not something i have within me.not for an abuser anyway shadow

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#49434 - 03/27/06 02:48 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16268
I looked up the definition. Most of the items identified "forgive" in words similar to the following.
Quote:
to refrain from imposing punishment on an offender or demanding satisfaction for an offense
So by that definition, I would never forgive someone like taxi guy even if he asked because to do so would put others at risk. Such a course would be irresponsible.

I can let it go, refuse to harbor bad feelings about him, learn to even feel sorry for him, I can visit him in jail and tell him these things, I can perhaps become his friend, but I cannot forgive by that definition.

Now I've shared a total of $0.04 so I've overstayed my welcome on this topic.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49435 - 03/27/06 05:45 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

I looked up the definition as well, and it astonished me to find NOTHING that I could remotely relate to in the context of what I think of as "forgiveness".

Refraining from imposing punishment or demanding satisfaction? That's forgiveness?

I seems to me we really ARE talking an idea that can mean many things to many people. So again, what do we think forgiveness really is? Don't we need to agree what we are talking about before we discuss whether we can do it?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49436 - 03/27/06 07:49 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
A new view of forgiveness is something i have been thinking of which is a person on death row going to be executed for a crime that caused the most unbearable pain and abuse a human being could ever suffer and as the death row inmate looks over as he is being strapped down and the order is given and the inmate asks for forgiveness for his crime i have seen others forgive the person as they die as they can no longer harm another human being.What about the abuser still walking the street after being released from prison or one that has not gone to prison but the both of these subjects are still abusing other human beings and children do they deserve our forgiveness if they are offending others even after they ask for our forgiveness for the abuse we incured but then the abuser turns right around and abuses someone else and if we had thoughts that the abuser would re-offend and we forgive the abuser but someone else gets harmed then we as a survivor sometimes are pulled into a case where the police and the prosecuters try to get all the victims of the offender together should all those survivors and victims forgive the person this is something to ponder.

As well i am not saying that i never could forgive just at this point in my journey I do not see my self forgiving my abuser maybe later on down the road it may happen but I also am not saying that I will ever forget what abuse I had to suffer at the hands of my abuser.Sometimes what we go thru makes us a stronger person if we allow ourselves to learn from the experience and if we take a step back and think about things from other perspectives and from others points of view like what is taking place with this thread which is a great thing we all are bringing good points to the table to be pondered on and checking others points of view so we can draw what the word "Forgiveness really is and the definition of the word as well.

Thank you for the other points of view here it makes me sit back and think of what the other person has gone thru or how they view and feel about certain aspects of the healing from our abuse.

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

Top
#49437 - 03/27/06 08:47 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I forgive people that absent mindedly do me an injustice!

I will not forgive someone that intentionally set out to repeatedly do me harm, with the intent of gratifying their own perverted needs.

I will not forgive someone that intentionally met those needs with other innocents both before and after meeting those needs with myself!

I will not forgive someone that denied ever doing anything, until he thought it would save his own skin to do so! I will not forgive someone who then tried again to deny that he had done anything.

There are people in this world that deserve my support and energy. That pervert does not and never will. I am offended that anyone should even suggest that I should forgive that pervert anything!

Remember - he never did any of it!

That pervert had an opportunity to admit guilt back in October 2004 - he never took it! I deny him any right to absolution!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49438 - 03/28/06 01:09 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16268
Larry,

Quote:
Don't we need to agree what we are talking about before we discuss whether we can do it?
Yup. I think you've hit on an important point.

Who gets to start? Frankly I don't like the definition I came up with. Anyone want to submit a definition so we can all vote? \:\)

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49439 - 03/28/06 02:58 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

My feelings on this are so tangled up right now with personal issues...wow. Clearly we have to think of what "forgiveness" in general is, and THEN see what we think of that in an abuse context.

I don't have a definition yet, but the idea of compassion must be in there somehow, right?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#49440 - 03/28/06 05:15 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
True forgiveness is always from the heart, but if you cant you might want to ask yourself, what is it really that I am getting by not forgiving? Because we dont do anything unless we are gaining something from it.

Once you find that things would be easy.

Now that people are taking turns in defining forgiveness let me add mine...

Forgiveness means giving yourself another chance, a fresh start.

Each experience that we go through in the present is culmination of a vast realm of experiences in the past and choices we have made there in. So to mend all of them would be difficult unless we are willing to accept their creation unconditionally - the present.

We can do that by saying, yes I accept this incident and what ever I have been thru as my own creation. Because when we do that, we are changing them as well, we are saying that ok I forgive my self and now I am willing to start again. So forgiveness is never about forgiving the other, it is immaterial for me as it really means yes I am ready to start anew.

Experiences come in all kind, some we can handle and some we cannot, some are supposed to rattle us and some are supposed to shatter us so that the new or better version of us can rise from its ashes.

Because even after a 9/11 what remains unshattered in a nation is the spirit of its people, they rise again to fight back but most of all to recreate, but what we recreate remains our choice, a memorial or a new realm. Then why cant a new realm be the memorial, that reminds us consistently that when we get destroyed we dont finish we only get better.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49441 - 03/28/06 05:24 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Continuing with the metaphor of 9/11, the choice really is what we do after it, do we stand up, brush our clothes and rebuild what is lost or do we go out to foreign land and hunt down our perp, it remains an individual choice afterall, as to how do we want to use our forces.

What is important for us, rebuilding or retribution, then why cant rebuilding be a retribution.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49444 - 03/28/06 07:35 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
This morning I got up early with my wife and fixed us some turkish coffee before she went off to work. It's quiet and cosy in the house and it's our 25th wedding anniversary. I am really happy today and grateful for so many things: on this day especially for the wonderful woman in my life. I am planning what I will prepare for dinner tonight and looking forward to celebrating the continuing love and caring that we share.

What does this have to do with forgiveness of the abuser? Nothing maybe, and perhaps everything, depending on how I look at it. All these things I am doing today, all the feelings of fulfillment and joy I have right now, I have without the abuser in the picture in any way. I think the course I have chosen, without thinking of it in this way, is something like what what JapanZen suggests:

Quote:
I don't have to forgive my abuser, nor do I have to NOT forgive him.
In other words, I think what I have done is just to refuse to get into that dynamic at all. I want the abuser entirely out of my life, so I refuse even to consider whether I should or should not forgive him.

I don't think of this as mere verbal acrobatics. To me it looks like a good option, the one that empowers ME because it leave the abuser where I want him - nowhere. I don't say this out of rage, though I understand the rage of others and don't deny them that right. I see it as a conscious reasoned choice. It allows me to focus entirely on the work that I need to do.

If I devote any resources to the forgiveness question, aren't I allowing the abuser back into my life in some sense? Aren't I then obliged to decide what to "do" with him within the framework of my recovery?

For me this is all about making the choice that suits ME. I don't have to choose between forgiving or not forgiving. I can also choose not to even get into that question, and that spares me the need to deal with all the imponderable and futile questions concerning abusers and why they do what they do.

This works for me because the man who abused me is dead now. Were he alive I doubt that I would follow this road. I would probably want to pursue the path that Rik and Kirk have chosen, that young Adam has followed, and that teenager Bill is just embarking on. But even here I think my target would not be the abuser himself, but the selfish cruelty and evil he stands for. Exposing and pursuing him would be a way of exposing and pursuing child abuse itself. THAT would be a target I would have been most willing to draw aim on.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49445 - 03/28/06 11:24 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
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Posts: 1124
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When it comes to life, there is no middle ground you can escape to, either you make a choice or you dont, either way you ARE making a choice.

Similarly, either you forgive or you dont, because not forgiving is also a choice, that you have to take consequences for.

Your relationship with your abuser is also part of your growth you can't run away from it. Either you are at peace with him or not, there are no middle grounds.

And yes, hiding behind semantics doesn't work in real life. Or choosing a path of least resistance, where you dont get to do anything just talk how hurt you were, or how angry you are, we all have to work out our wounds and anger, staying angry is the power I was urging to relinquish, that is what keeps a victim trapped in the unforgiven state. Because once you let go of your anger, you can no longer feel better off than anyone.

The abuser has done his karma and move on, while you are still stuck there karmically, because you haven't worked it out, either forgiven or accepted.

Even if you are a non believer, the best judge is your own conscience, if you continue to feel hurt by the experience, then it is not over.

So, either you are doing something about, or not, your CHOICE.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49446 - 03/28/06 12:34 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Morning Star,

I would say, yes, if I refuse even to think about forgiveness, then I come to the same result as I would if I consider all the options and then DECIDE not to forgive.

But I would say that if the result is the same for the abuser (no forgiveness) it isn't the same for me. If I decline even to consider the problem, I spare myself a lot of agonizing over who the abuser is, what his problems or background might be, why he abused me, why he never showed remorse, why he exulted in his ability to shame and humiliate me, and so on. I feel I can let go of my anger and move on in recovery without that detour. I can leave him exactly where he deserves to be - rejected as having led a life devoid of any positive meaning. I feel I can do that objectively (if not serenely), without any bitterness or hate.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49448 - 03/28/06 01:27 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Just a note about this from JapanZen:

Quote:
Forgiveness is an abstract concept and therefore can not be a straight "yes" or "no" (forgive or not) there are also other options.
I would just add that for me "forgiveness", whatever that proves to mean, lies at the end of a process of thinking and deciding about a lot of things. My choice is to decline to get into that process, though I understand that it might be important for other survivors.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49449 - 03/28/06 02:27 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Japan, your comments about blinkers and Christianity are a nasty and disrespectful. Please refrain from them in future, and not turn this lively discussion into a personal battle field as it would defeat the entire purpose of this forum.

Further, if my obeservations are troubling you, you need to ask yourself why, as they have no harm meant.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49450 - 03/28/06 02:36 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Larry, if your 'detour' takes you to place where you are completely at peace with your abuser, and have no hurtful feeling residual from your abuse, then I am completely at peace with your stance. But if that is because you want to bypass the painful process of all the whys you have mentioned, then I fear these will come up again, sooner or later in life, just be aware.

Again, I am not adamant just because I want to, I am so because I want the best for my friend.

Love,

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49453 - 03/28/06 08:50 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
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Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I refuse to waste any more energy on this topic! The abusers are nasty perverts - the only energy we should be wasting on them is getting them jailed!

There are millions of people on this planet that deserve further energy from myself.

WE SIMPLY DO'NT HAVE TO FORGIVE THEM. I WILL NOT EVER.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I HAVE BAD KARMA, OR BAD ANYTHING ELSE!

Some of the posts on this topic imply that it is important to forgive those perverts. Remember that many people visit here and post nothing. Many people here find it difficult to forgive themselves.

I think that we should be spending more time supporting them, rather than wondering about forgiving perverts.

I won't see any responses that my final post receives on this topic, as it is starting to get annoying!

Best wishes...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49454 - 03/28/06 10:39 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Rik,

I know you said you will not reply to this thread no more.

Take a step back, a big step back, get it in control.
Only the victims of abuse can ever see how much hurt abusers do.

I know you are thinking!
How is he still able to walk the streets without being locked away.
It must be massive on your mind right now.

You have though scored a victory, he will be known as a child abuser for the rest of his life in that area.

The evidence that you guys put before the court, and the fact that he still had boys visiting his home should have warranted a jail term.

When we talk about forgiveness, we are not talking really about totally forgiving them.
We are talking about forgiving to help us survive beating ourselves up.

I forgave because I had to do it, otherwise it could have turned pretty bad in his mind.
To lessen our own hurt is to forgive, but it is not to forgive what they have done.

It is to lessen the impact of not getting the desired outcome.
If we forgive then we are not totally going ballistic within our own minds on retribution.

You know who he is, but I guess he has fled from the area to another place.
I hope he has for your peace of mind.

My abuser never got caught, but my mind was blanked out to his appearance anyhow, that is how good a job he did on me, I could never recognize him, but maybe I could if he had not threatened my family and myself.

It is not really forgiving the abuser, but forgiving yourself for being abused, and there is a difference.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49455 - 03/28/06 11:55 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I would just note here that the topic of the thread is explosive - we have all known that from the beginning. It touches each and every one of us to our very soul.

Let's acknowledge the variety of ways we cope with this issue, just as we acknowledge the different ways we have coped with abuse itself. It is to our credit as survivors that we can even talk about it at all.

None of us means to hurt another, of that I am very sure. I for one have learned so much, and especially from those who challenge me with a different point of view. That's what dialogue is all about.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49456 - 03/29/06 02:16 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
We seem to be getting hung up over "forgiveness for ourselves vs. forgiveness for our abuser". The conversation was regarding the latter. And I don't believe that the two are the same thing.

Consider, for instance, what there is to gain by forgiving the abuser. Morning Star says that we stand to gain a whole lot by doing this. I disagree - I believe that forgiveness, or denial of forgiveness, for my abusers will not make a whit of difference in the Universe, because 1) my abusers aren't around to know whether or not I forgive them, 2) I have no evidence which shows that my abusers even want forgiveness (some, like Rick, indeed have evidence that their abusers specifically do not want forgiveness, in fact what they want is everybody to think they never did anything at all), and 3) whether or not it is indeed my place to actually forgive anyone besides myself for anything whatsoever is a philisophical argument I've not seen a satisfactory resolution for. Thus, for me to write or say "I forgive my abuser" is to say something empty and meaningless. I could say the words over and over again, every morning in the mirror, and my attitude toward my abusers, and CSA in general, will simply not change, positively or negatively. Not one iota.

Next, it is entirely possible to simply not have an opinion on the matter. By analogy, try asking someone who's never tasted calamari whether he likes or dislikes it. He cannot answer, because he has no frame of reference. Someone, like me, who does not fully understand the implications and particulars behind "forgiving" the people who used and abused him simply cannot make the decision. Morning Star has tried to clarify those particulars(a decent effort, I might add), but it is still not enough because he is trying to explain it within the context of his own personal belief system, which features some things, such as Karma, that I'm not entirely sure I subscribe to or believe in. I have my own singular beliefs, and those beliefs draw certain lines regarding what I can and cannot allow myself to do.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#49457 - 03/29/06 04:43 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
I think what is happening out here is very dangerous for some new survivor, might walk in and take our discussion on its face value.

Right now the majority seems to be in favour of not forgiving for one reason or another, my fear is that a new survivor might buy into it, get stuck. The majority is out there, who have forgiven and moved on from this site, or this issue.

So I may recommend to all new survivors here, Please keep this discussion for your T only, as you would get confused here. He would introduce you to it when you are ready.

I can see many here were not ready for it, and got so worked up.

Take your time my friends, there is no hurry or need to justify it to me, I am out of it. Now it is up to you, if my arguments appeal to you apply them, if they dont, then so be it.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49458 - 03/29/06 04:49 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Japan,
I would recommend you too keep this issue for your T or a Zen master.

all the best

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#49459 - 03/29/06 07:51 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I disagree, again. I started this topic because once I'd considered it, I had a feeling there would be many takes on it - a feeling which has been borne out by the response. It's obvious that some people have very strong opinions about it. But that doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, discuss it. It just means that we need to stay civil as we discuss it. If one doesn't feel he could handle the discussion, then he should leave - the way Rick did.

Now, back to the discussion. Morning Star, you said

Quote:
True forgiveness is always from the heart, but if you cant you might want to ask yourself, what is it really that I am getting by not forgiving? Because we dont do anything unless we are gaining something from it.
I think the answer is somewhat obvious.

Because Kirk Wayne did not forgive, his perpetrators, and their sick "friends", have been tried and sentenced by a court of law. They will never be allowed near kids again.

Because Rick did not forgive, his perpetrator has also been tried and sentenced. Because he did not forgive, the lives of the children seen leaving the perp's residence when the cops came to question him will be spared a lifetime of misery.

Because the new user Bill_h_pike has chosen to not forgive, his local DA office will be filing charges against his perpetrator, a youth group leader, who has access to who knows how many potential victims.

Because hundreds of parishoners have chosen to not forgive, the old chain of transferring known or suspected pedophile priests to other jurisdictions to keep things quiet has been broken, and some of these men are being brought to justice, and seperated from those they want to abuse.

What does one get from not forgiving? The knowledge that lives have been saved. The comfort of knowing that many more people will never have to visit this forum, because one person decided that his abuser deserved justice, not forgiveness. Perhaps some refuse forgiveness not for selfish reasons, but rather out of selflessness.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#49460 - 03/29/06 07:58 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
ak Offline
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Just because there is certain dictionery definition of 'forgiveness' does not mean it is what *I* mean when I say I forgave one my abusers.

When I offered 'forgiveness', it was more of me then of him, because he never ask for it, and I do not know ever he will. It was not act of 'excusing' what he done, but accepting it, that it happened and I have no control of that; what I have control of is my perception of it. Not having forgiven him, I had much fear of him, and felt more not in control of situation. My being able to tell him that 'I release you of what you done to me, because I would much rather live as myself then as you', that was me telling that to MYSELF, and taking back control of the situation, and my relationship with my abuser (I do not mean 'relationship' in that there is one, like friendship or anything; I mean 'relationship' as my perceptions of him and what happened, and my feelings of the memories and leftovers it gives to me).

I believe very much of God, and I want very much to be a good person. Not just to not disappoint God. But to not disappoint myself, my family, my friends. I did not 'forgive' because it is what I think God would want me to do. There is one my abusers, I would never forgive him, in life or in my mind even, and never would think of it. And it do not bother me. I do what *I* feel I need and want to do, for ME, NOT for them.

Lot of this issue is become personal insults between grown adults. That is not productive, respectful, or appropriate here. If there is personal disagreements, perhaps it should be dealt with in more personal (private) way.

If someone want to think me foolish or stupid for what or how I think, that is their right. Perhaps they are correct. But I still feel as I do, and have no regret of it.

Andrei


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#49461 - 03/29/06 08:01 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
ak Offline
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Quote:
Originally posted by melliferal:

Because Kirk Wayne did not forgive, his perpetrators, and their sick "friends", have been tried and sentenced by a court of law. They will never be allowed near kids again.

Because Rick did not forgive, his perpetrator has also been tried and sentenced. Because he did not forgive, the lives of the children seen leaving the perp's residence when the cops came to question him will be spared a lifetime of misery.

Because the new user Bill_h_pike has chosen to not forgive, his local DA office will be filing charges against his perpetrator, a youth group leader, who has access to who knows how many potential victims.

Just, I wanted to add. One of my abusers is dead. One is in prison for life, for abusing, but also for murdering three boys. Another has lost his job. Another has been fined and greatly limited in his job abilities. To me, 'forgive' is to not excuse from legal consequences. Forgive was for me to take control of my emotions of the situation. Even persons who 'forgive' can still do things to protect other children.

Andrei


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#49462 - 03/29/06 08:57 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by ak:
To me, 'forgive' is to not excuse from legal consequences. Forgive was for me to take control of my emotions of the situation. Even persons who 'forgive' can still do things to protect other children.

Andrei
See, this is the concept I can't get my mind around. I don't see how I could on the one hand say "I forgive your for what you did to me", and on the next haul the same person to court to testify against him - for what he did to me. It's too paradoxical; it's prima facie evidence that I do not, in fact, forgive him. People are using some intensely nonstandard definitions of "forgiveness" here. I always took "forgive" to mean "absolve of responsibility"; in other words, to forgive someone for abusing you is to no longer hold him responsible for your abuse. If one truly forgives somebody, how could one press charges at the same time while remaining intellectually honest?

Perhaps it's a perceptual issue. I don't think "not liking your abuser" is a case of the abuser controlling you. Therefore, I don't see my wanting an abuser in jail, or just generally disliking pedophiles, as some sort of demon that needs to be exorcised in order to find peace. There'll always be someone or something we dislike - a politician, or a celebrity, or a certain type of weather or food. There will be some things that we dislike intensely. Normal people who have not been abused harbor anger and hatred for things. So, if I were to guage my healing, as it were, by how closely my emotional state resembles that of the average "control group" calm not-abused person, I don't think it's fair on myself to demand that I no longer feel anger or dislike for people who have done me wrong, because "normal" people are fully allowed to experience such emotions.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#49464 - 03/29/06 09:58 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
ak Offline
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Never mind. It is obvious, I can not say what I think properly for anyone to understand. So I give it up.

Andrei


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#49465 - 03/29/06 10:38 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Forgiving is not defined in the dictionary as regards this thread which has seen a load of animation to it.

It is about little boys who were hurt at a young age and how they perceived keeping their minds safe in their world.

The whole issue of forgiving to me, was like acid in my veins, it was about deep hatred for myself in not being able to save other kids from a monster.

I should have been just like other boys who laughed and played in innocence.
It was just a life of totally beating myself up for his guilt, "not mine".

I was forced to "forgive", there was no other way of dealing with it.

It is never how we choose to "forgive" it is because we had to, there was no other way out of this dark tunnel,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49466 - 03/29/06 10:50 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Andrei,

I thought your presentation of your ideas on forgiveness were clear and lucid. At least, I am sure I got exactly what you mean. I also like your view that even if one forgives an abuser personally, and in the way you describe, that does not release him from facing society and the consequences for his acts as prescribed in law. You are saying that forgiving an abuser doesn't mean you release him from responsibility for what he has done.

Thanks for this perspective. I am going to have to go away and think about this one! Thanks for bringing it up.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49467 - 03/29/06 10:22 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
This really is my last comment!

Instead of suggesting/preaching to me that I should forgive, let's try another angle.

I can give you James Fowler's address. I can take you to where he shops. I can show you where he gambles. I can show you the sites where I was abused! I can show you locations where he identified children to suit his purposes.

I have forgiven myself, and that is why I can argue my point here! That is why I can speak directly to the two known victims that were abused after me (and there are more). That is why I forgive the people that I know were abused before me! There is only one person at fault!

What I suggest, is that anyone that wants me to forgive him, first goes to his house and asks him if he wants to repent his sins!

If you receive an answer at all, it will be "What sins"?

Why on earth would anyone here want me to forgive him?

We also have a section here: Spirituality and Survivors - I suggest that all preaching is done on that part of the site! I don't mind anyone loving their religion, I just don't want it rammed down my throat!

New people arriving here may take our discussion at face value! If I had been preached to when I arrived here, I would have been off like a shot - James Fowler would not have been stopped & I would probably have gone completely mad or worse!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49468 - 03/29/06 10:49 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
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Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Not quite:

Quote:
"Right now the majority seems to be in favour of not forgiving for one reason or another, my fear is that a new survivor might buy into it, get stuck. The majority is out there, who have forgiven and moved on from this site, or this issue."

If you are a new survivor here, and you think from this posting, that your first task here is to forgive a perpetrator that defiled you?? I can ensure you that it is not!

Who can qualify the statement "The majority is out there who have forgiven" Sorry but that is theoretical bullshit!

To all survivors here new/ young / old / whatever - forgive yourself for it is you that is important! The perpetrators feelings mean absolutely nothing!

*I will point out at this juncture, that I am aware that at least one person here DOES work with abusers. Does try to change their actions and lifestyle. I commend this work most highly! That is an amazing task to take on, and I do not disrespect that action in any way. I believe that person is working with people that want to change, that admit that what they have done is wrong! That is the difference.

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49470 - 04/02/06 01:20 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
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Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
This may be my last comment? Depends what follows?

I have sat here and read the whole of this post tonight, just to ensure that I have taken in all perspectives!

It appears that there are few that wish to forgive (and that is my own personal perspective)!

My question: Unless you are 110% sure that the person that abused you, is not abusing anyone else....why on earth would you even want to consider forgiving them?

My perspective here is adult v child!

Best wishes ...Rik.

*I am wondering right now, who is monitoring James Fowler at this moment? At some point on Saturday, did some child enter his house to play with guns? Will some child on Sunday enter his house to "play with guns"?

Remeber - I took the ******* to court & I'm still concerned at what he may be doing!

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49471 - 04/02/06 03:37 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Rik,

I am surprised he is still in the area, but they will be monitoring him and also the neighbours will also.

Forgiveness is never to really forgive, but to forgive ones self of the hurt they did, and maybe to have them locked away so they cannot hurt others.

I never think that a court appearance is going to stop his life of abuse, it will just make him be more wary of being caught.

Unfortunately judges cannot consceivably see the harm that they do to kids, they just cannot grasp it,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49472 - 04/02/06 02:51 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Rik,

Quote:
My question: Unless you are 110% sure that the person that abused you, is not abusing anyone else....why on earth would you even want to consider forgiving them?
I would agree with that, and as you know my own perspective is very much against forgiving abusers. But part of that view rests, I think, on my inability to figure out how forgiving an abuser could ever help me.

I have seen talk about how to forgive the abuser is also to forgive myself. Huh? Why do I need forgiveness if nothing that happened was ever my fault?

I'm not arguing here, just expressing my inability to follow this argument.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49473 - 04/02/06 03:15 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
As I go on reading I find myself hiding more and more within myself because I feel I can not be true and share everything that I feel on this board. Which I guess is why I left for so long and for so many times. Maybe I should just leave and not return I am not sure. Somehow I have a hope deep down inside of me that there are people on this board that can help which I must add that I have met some and I do cherish them. Anyways again for fear of what will happen I just want to say what ever works for you is the best thing you should do..........

malidin41

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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#49474 - 04/02/06 10:53 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
Malidin,

Do not feel pressured into opening up on the board when ever you are ready it is up to you to feel safe when you share and the men on this board understand more then other people around any of us that have never been in our shoes.The general public just does not understand what we as survivors have been thru and the hell we have had to endure.I would say this just because of this one topic don't let that drive you away from the very thing you are looking for which is someone that you can talk to that will be true and will listen to you and help you when you are ready and willing to share.

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#49475 - 04/02/06 11:38 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
Forgiveness for some of us here may be something that has to happen in order for us to truely heal but,for others here forgiveness is just like the death row inmate just getting ready to meet his maker and he asks for forgiveness from whom ever he offended and those individuals forgive this offender and as some of us have witnessed it puts that offender at rest prior to meeting his maker.....my view is why would one want to put his offender at rest i personally would rather see the offender in agony and being torchered but that is my view what is the saying...."What goes around comes around" this is how i feel.Some say forgiveness is a choice and i would agree however,we all have our own timing and methods in how and when we forgive if we forgive at all.

I would say this though it helps to take in other opinions of other survivors as sometimes we need a different perspective even if we don't want to listen right then things sink in after awhile and maybe what someone else says may make a difference in someone elses life.

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#49476 - 04/03/06 05:22 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16268
I will leave the decision of what path one should take through this area of their recovery up to the individual who has to make that choice. They need to have the freedom of making that decision in a time, place, and method which meets their needs at the time. It would be somewhat arrogant and abusive of me to try to make that decision for anyone else here.

I can use black and white thinking on myself if I want to. It is wrong of me to impose it on anyone else in regards to the matter of forgiving anyone for anything.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#49477 - 04/03/06 11:53 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

I really like this approach:

Quote:
I will leave the decision of what path one should take through this area of their recovery up to the individual who has to make that choice. They need to have the freedom of making that decision in a time, place, and method which meets their needs at the time.
This point is something that really needs to be stressed here.

This thread hits a lot of hot buttons, and I hope everyone will read it just as ideas offered from a lot of different perspectives. There isn't any absolutely right or wrong way to deal with this one, I think. There is only "my way", which each of us has to figure out in terms of what we think is best for ourselves and for our recovery.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49478 - 04/03/06 01:33 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
"Sorry"!

How many times have I/You, used that same word.
It is a simple act of forgiveness borne out of guilt.

How many sorrys' do each and every one of us dish out in a lifetime, sometimes when we are really hurt by others?

The vicious circle of guilt from eternally forgiving or fighting when we need not have had to feel that way.

Forgiveness is simply an act of walking away from a situation rather than let it constantly hurt us.
Dont get messed up in this vicious circle, dont let it constantly hurt.

If somebody chopped my hand off, and I forgive them it is to lessen the pain, if they said sorry, it would not lessen the pain.

Forgiveness simply stops further hurt, but it is not going to much lessen the impact of abuse.
There simply is no other way out.
Anger and frustration have never solved anything that I ever remember.

That is my 0.02 cents,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49479 - 04/05/06 08:50 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
VN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 723
I think it is very importent that no one here put on another person here how they must deal of this and heal. As it is said in other post, what work for us, it do not work always for others. Whether you 'should' forgive or not, it is your choice, not mine or no one else. We all have had enough forced on us in past. We do not need it here too. I have not forgiven anyone who abuse me. I do not feel need to. Maybe some day I will. But right now, I do not feel I need to to heal, or to feel I am good or complete person. Anyone who tell me I must, I have no respect for.

VN


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#49480 - 04/12/06 11:54 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
I am adding to this, because few times, I have tried to explain it, what I mean of 'forgiveness', and why I make the choice. Never I think I speak it properly.

But in a PM to someone, I said it I think right finally.

Forgiveness is not for the other person. It is for us. For me, to forgive, it was not to erase what was done to me. It was to allow me to be the person I am, and am meant to be. That is all.

Andrei


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#49481 - 04/12/06 05:39 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
relaxingpiano Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 53
Loc: Miami FL
I believe forgiveness is a personal thing and when we are ready to look at it, we will. But until then it is a very difficult topic.

For years, I heard people tell me to forgive my abusers and there was no way that I could. The pain of what happened was still far too real to my heart. My heart had been torn apart and there was no way I could even think about forgiveness until my heart had mended a little.

Recently in a healing session, we did some work with forgiveness and I was quite shocked at myself because I never ever ever ever thought I'd see that day. But then it finally dawned on me that I wasn't doing this for my abusers... I was doing it for myself and to release myself from their shame, hurt and betrayal. Of course that is my process and where I'm at. It took me a long long time to get to this particular point in my own healing.

Forgiveness isn't an act that someone just does all at once. It is a process and it most likely comes when a person is ready for it. Everyone has different views on it and I believe they are all valid.

The more important point to focus on I believe is healing your life and being open to where ever that takes you. The rest is only mile markers on that journey.

Don

_________________________
Relaxing Piano Music from the Heart

http://www.donshetterly.com

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#49482 - 04/13/06 11:26 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
So forgive yourselves! **** the abusers - do they count for anything?

TRIGGER...TRIGGER...TRIGGER

I need the opportunity to stand in front of the paedophile that sexualised me and stole my formative years! I need to stand in front of his face and ask him why he wanted to remove my clothes and play with my body on several occassions! I want to know why he pretended to be my best friend (a replacement uncle/grandfather) prior to abusing my body and mind!!??

I know that he would deny everything, as he has on numerous occassions in a legal setting! Only once pleading guilty, then trying to withdraw that plea!

Do not fool yourselves...forgiving yourself is one thing...attempting to give a reason for forgiving these vile excuses for human beings is another! Please do not confuse the two.

Make exuces for them if you wish...is that forgiveness. I believe that really forgiving, means self forgiveness....let them plead their own forgiveness....James Fowler has never asked my forgiveness! He admitted 4 specimen crimes against myself, and 1 specimen crime against another....then tried to withdraw the guilty plea.

I end, where I came in.... **** the abusers!

Best wishes...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#441131 - 07/17/13 05:42 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers? [Re: melliferal]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5532
Loc: O Kanada
i would like to share my own story of forgiveness with you.
it worked for me.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=432551#Post432551

hope you find something in there that makes sense to you.

much love.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#447646 - 09/19/13 02:42 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers? [Re: melliferal]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5532
Loc: O Kanada

_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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