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#49462 - 03/29/06 08:57 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by ak:
To me, 'forgive' is to not excuse from legal consequences. Forgive was for me to take control of my emotions of the situation. Even persons who 'forgive' can still do things to protect other children.

Andrei
See, this is the concept I can't get my mind around. I don't see how I could on the one hand say "I forgive your for what you did to me", and on the next haul the same person to court to testify against him - for what he did to me. It's too paradoxical; it's prima facie evidence that I do not, in fact, forgive him. People are using some intensely nonstandard definitions of "forgiveness" here. I always took "forgive" to mean "absolve of responsibility"; in other words, to forgive someone for abusing you is to no longer hold him responsible for your abuse. If one truly forgives somebody, how could one press charges at the same time while remaining intellectually honest?

Perhaps it's a perceptual issue. I don't think "not liking your abuser" is a case of the abuser controlling you. Therefore, I don't see my wanting an abuser in jail, or just generally disliking pedophiles, as some sort of demon that needs to be exorcised in order to find peace. There'll always be someone or something we dislike - a politician, or a celebrity, or a certain type of weather or food. There will be some things that we dislike intensely. Normal people who have not been abused harbor anger and hatred for things. So, if I were to guage my healing, as it were, by how closely my emotional state resembles that of the average "control group" calm not-abused person, I don't think it's fair on myself to demand that I no longer feel anger or dislike for people who have done me wrong, because "normal" people are fully allowed to experience such emotions.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#49464 - 03/29/06 09:58 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Never mind. It is obvious, I can not say what I think properly for anyone to understand. So I give it up.

Andrei


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#49465 - 03/29/06 10:38 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Forgiving is not defined in the dictionary as regards this thread which has seen a load of animation to it.

It is about little boys who were hurt at a young age and how they perceived keeping their minds safe in their world.

The whole issue of forgiving to me, was like acid in my veins, it was about deep hatred for myself in not being able to save other kids from a monster.

I should have been just like other boys who laughed and played in innocence.
It was just a life of totally beating myself up for his guilt, "not mine".

I was forced to "forgive", there was no other way of dealing with it.

It is never how we choose to "forgive" it is because we had to, there was no other way out of this dark tunnel,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49466 - 03/29/06 10:50 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Andrei,

I thought your presentation of your ideas on forgiveness were clear and lucid. At least, I am sure I got exactly what you mean. I also like your view that even if one forgives an abuser personally, and in the way you describe, that does not release him from facing society and the consequences for his acts as prescribed in law. You are saying that forgiving an abuser doesn't mean you release him from responsibility for what he has done.

Thanks for this perspective. I am going to have to go away and think about this one! Thanks for bringing it up.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49467 - 03/29/06 10:22 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
This really is my last comment!

Instead of suggesting/preaching to me that I should forgive, let's try another angle.

I can give you James Fowler's address. I can take you to where he shops. I can show you where he gambles. I can show you the sites where I was abused! I can show you locations where he identified children to suit his purposes.

I have forgiven myself, and that is why I can argue my point here! That is why I can speak directly to the two known victims that were abused after me (and there are more). That is why I forgive the people that I know were abused before me! There is only one person at fault!

What I suggest, is that anyone that wants me to forgive him, first goes to his house and asks him if he wants to repent his sins!

If you receive an answer at all, it will be "What sins"?

Why on earth would anyone here want me to forgive him?

We also have a section here: Spirituality and Survivors - I suggest that all preaching is done on that part of the site! I don't mind anyone loving their religion, I just don't want it rammed down my throat!

New people arriving here may take our discussion at face value! If I had been preached to when I arrived here, I would have been off like a shot - James Fowler would not have been stopped & I would probably have gone completely mad or worse!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49468 - 03/29/06 10:49 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Not quite:

Quote:
"Right now the majority seems to be in favour of not forgiving for one reason or another, my fear is that a new survivor might buy into it, get stuck. The majority is out there, who have forgiven and moved on from this site, or this issue."

If you are a new survivor here, and you think from this posting, that your first task here is to forgive a perpetrator that defiled you?? I can ensure you that it is not!

Who can qualify the statement "The majority is out there who have forgiven" Sorry but that is theoretical bullshit!

To all survivors here new/ young / old / whatever - forgive yourself for it is you that is important! The perpetrators feelings mean absolutely nothing!

*I will point out at this juncture, that I am aware that at least one person here DOES work with abusers. Does try to change their actions and lifestyle. I commend this work most highly! That is an amazing task to take on, and I do not disrespect that action in any way. I believe that person is working with people that want to change, that admit that what they have done is wrong! That is the difference.

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49470 - 04/02/06 01:20 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
This may be my last comment? Depends what follows?

I have sat here and read the whole of this post tonight, just to ensure that I have taken in all perspectives!

It appears that there are few that wish to forgive (and that is my own personal perspective)!

My question: Unless you are 110% sure that the person that abused you, is not abusing anyone else....why on earth would you even want to consider forgiving them?

My perspective here is adult v child!

Best wishes ...Rik.

*I am wondering right now, who is monitoring James Fowler at this moment? At some point on Saturday, did some child enter his house to play with guns? Will some child on Sunday enter his house to "play with guns"?

Remeber - I took the ******* to court & I'm still concerned at what he may be doing!

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#49471 - 04/02/06 03:37 AM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Rik,

I am surprised he is still in the area, but they will be monitoring him and also the neighbours will also.

Forgiveness is never to really forgive, but to forgive ones self of the hurt they did, and maybe to have them locked away so they cannot hurt others.

I never think that a court appearance is going to stop his life of abuse, it will just make him be more wary of being caught.

Unfortunately judges cannot consceivably see the harm that they do to kids, they just cannot grasp it,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#49472 - 04/02/06 02:51 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Rik,

Quote:
My question: Unless you are 110% sure that the person that abused you, is not abusing anyone else....why on earth would you even want to consider forgiving them?
I would agree with that, and as you know my own perspective is very much against forgiving abusers. But part of that view rests, I think, on my inability to figure out how forgiving an abuser could ever help me.

I have seen talk about how to forgive the abuser is also to forgive myself. Huh? Why do I need forgiveness if nothing that happened was ever my fault?

I'm not arguing here, just expressing my inability to follow this argument.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#49473 - 04/02/06 03:15 PM Re: Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
As I go on reading I find myself hiding more and more within myself because I feel I can not be true and share everything that I feel on this board. Which I guess is why I left for so long and for so many times. Maybe I should just leave and not return I am not sure. Somehow I have a hope deep down inside of me that there are people on this board that can help which I must add that I have met some and I do cherish them. Anyways again for fear of what will happen I just want to say what ever works for you is the best thing you should do..........

malidin41

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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