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#48771 - 12/21/04 10:34 AM Would this restore confidence, trust?
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
What follows is an idea that I've posted in the mod area for getting us out of this quadmire. Please offer any suggestions that you think would help us to avoid these disagreements.
*********************


"I think that we as mods are for the most part reasonable people of good judgement.
I am therefore recommending that we have or use our power of the delete key, to delete any, I repeat, any post that we think is offensive or inappropriate. I think that we should have a disclaimer that in the interest of safety and good order, we retain the right to remove any post, at any time. If someone wants to complain about that, publicly, that post may also be deleted. It should be announced that men come here to tell their stories and be heard and believed. We offer the wisdom and support of the accummulated thought of the best men this site has to offer. If someone comes here for support, or to lend support and encouragement, then the door is open. If, however, someone comes here to sharp shoot, pontificate or otherwise make an ass out of themselves, they risk having their post(s) deleted. It's not a matter of whether we agree or disagree with what has been posted, it is a matter of support and encouragement.
Frankly, I think that we need to take the bull by the horns and let folks know that this is not a democracy or a playground for the abusive; it is, or has been, one of the finest sites on the web and we plan to keep it that way.

Our playground, our ball, if they can't live with that, then they can play somewhere else."
**************************

Too harsh, not harsh enough? What do you think?

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#48772 - 12/21/04 11:04 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
David, I agree 100 percent.

I would add this: The representations of some number of individuals via multiple identities on this site recently has created chaos. It could have been prevented.

Most of the men and boys who come here have lived with some form of chaos all of their lives. Chaos cannot rule in a forum such as this without having the effect of destroying all levels of credibility.

I sugggest that not just the moderators but in fact the board of directors and the President of MaleSurvivor take the bull by the horns and stop the chaos.

Jim


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#48773 - 12/21/04 04:34 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
David I support this action and I also think that Jim has added something that should be too. I think that the President of MaleSurvivor should come here and tell it too.

Trust is so big in our lives that it needs to be protected and nurtured. My humble take on all this. We are all here to journey together.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#48774 - 12/21/04 05:56 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
Although I agree with the sentiment %100, I think we may be asking for trouble.

What is the standard for offensive? I have watched folks post things in the Male Survivor forum get bent out of shape when posts are moved to a more appropriate topic area (a move that depends on a moderators opinion), so I hate to think what would happen if posts were censored or disappeared altogether.

I agree that we should not have to witness attacks that go back and forth, and no one should suffer an attack by any means, but I do not know if censorship is the solution simply because of the widely varying degrees of human opinion on what should be censored.

I wish I could think of a good solution, I want this to be safe for everyone as well. And, again, I know you guys behind the scenes must be pulling your hair out, and we do appreciate all that you do.

Hang in there.


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#48775 - 12/21/04 05:57 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 473
Loc: UK
David

I think that a more active deleting policy would be good and I think what you say is about right. Any post that is about conflict between members should be deleted. It’s a waste of everyone’s time getting drawn into conflicts. Anything disruptive or inappropriate or abusive is better deleted. The focus should remain solely on healing for each other and for ourselves.

I also think that anyone who is acting out in a destructive way on the boards could be protected from themselves, with their posts deleted and a brief explanation given people would have a clearer understanding about what is and is not acceptable in posting.

It may mean more work for you moderators, but I think we would have a healthier environment.

Rustam.


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#48776 - 12/21/04 06:28 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
This is an online group therapy for us. If we were in a face to face group therapy and one of the members started to show there butts they would be asked to leave in order to keep the rest of the group safe. So why not have something close to this here? I think it's a good idea.

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#48777 - 12/21/04 07:35 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi David, I think that Mods should have the power to move a post, or thread from one forum to another. I recommend that a new quarantine forum be created, the only ones that have access to it would be the mods and any one that oversees the mods. A mod could move a post or a whole thread to the quarantine forum. If a post is moved the mod has to add why he moved it. If I as a mere member complain that my post has been put there unfairly, whoever monitors the mods can look at the post or thread and come up with a decision on whether to restore the post or not. Also by keeping the post you can keep track of any bad apples that may turn up. About editing of posts. A member should only be given about 15 min. to edit a post, that is long enough to catch simple spelling grammar errors. I really like how investorshub.com is set up. You can get some more ideas reading their FAQ, http://www.investorshub.com/boards/faq.asp and user agreement http://www.investorshub.com/boards/complex_terms.asp . They also have a jail house forum for people who cause trouble on the site. I have to run but that will help get you started.

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#48778 - 12/21/04 08:21 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
David,

Something that Jim said above really struck me when I read it:

Quote:

Most of the men and boys who come here have lived with some form of chaos all of their lives. Chaos cannot rule in a forum such as this without having the effect of destroying all levels of credibility.
I think that really goes to the heart of it. If the forum is allowed to be disrupted and become a place of chaos, then we all suffer, just as we did all those years ago in our childhood. We lived in chaos, we survived chaos, and we moved our lives on beyond the chaos. Having it revisited here is very unhealthy for all of us, more so than it would be for the un-abused person. Some might say that having lived and survived the chaos of our childhoods would make us better equipped to handle this type of disruption. Maybe so, but I still think it is very triggering in a way, reminding all of us of the type of crappy, chaotic life we're trying to leave behind and move beyond.

I see any forum as being the home of the owner, and if I enter into their home, I expect to be treated honestly and civily by the other guests. If I'm not, I expect the host to ask the disruptive guest to leave. This forum is MS's home, and we are all guests here. True, the gathering here is to talk about painful subjects for us all, but that doesn't give other guests the right to use us, manipulate us, or intentionally hurt us. The moderators here are first rate in my opinion, and I so very much appreciate all you do. If you need to delete posts, remove guests, etc., to make everyone feel safe, then I believe you have every right and obligation to do so.

[edited to clarify and correct spelling]

_________________________
Eddie

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#48779 - 12/21/04 08:59 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
David, while I think that censorship and editing would be a short term solution, I am against changing a format and formula that has worked for so long at MS. We have survived and grown from similar incidents in the past and will do so again. Sanitizing MS is not the answer. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#48780 - 12/21/04 09:32 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
TeeJayUU Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 262
Loc: MidWest
The question of what is offensive and should be deleted is a very good question, the standard, the measuring tool, et cetera.

However, as it is said, I may not be able to describe offensive (obscene), but I know it when I see it...

My feelings, the Mods have been placed in their position for a reason. I think that they have this position due to background, committment, and so on. I think they should be given this tool.

However, maybe there needs to be a way of letting the "Powers That Be" if we disagree with a deletion. If too many issues are applied to one moderator for being "delete happy", then the powers that be could take a look or have a discusson with that mod. Just a thought.

This is a WONDERFUL place, and I trust and will abide by the mods!

Thank you for all of your hard work and support!

TJ

_________________________
"There is a plan for me, God has a Purpose, I know there is a reason that I'm ALIVE!" Cherish Grace
PEACE HOPE LOVE

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#48781 - 12/21/04 11:23 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
My view is that we ( the mods ) should not become the 'thought police'

I am against editing or moving a post unless it is offensive towards another person or disruptive to MS.

We already do as LostCowboy suggests, we move posts to the 'Moderators Forum' where we as a team make a decision on it, and I hope we always inform the poster about what we're doing and why.

Is the decision always going to be right one? possibly not, but we're always open to discussion. And we are here to HELP, not control.

Given the subject we're discussing there is always going to be sexual discussion, and this can also give us problems.
What 'language' do we use to describe what happened to us?
Sometimes clinical language doesn't convey what we feel about the act, 'anal sex' tells it like is, but if someone is angry about it does 'fucked' fit the bill better?
I think that is best left to the poster, and if it's graphic then post a 'trigger warning' at the head of the post.

I don't want to see lively discussion stifled here, and as long as we remember that everyone is entitled to an opinion that might not be the same as ours then we'll get along just fine.

Out there in the 'real world' we face disagreement and arguments all the time, and we have to deal with it.
If we resort to name calling and threats then we stand a chance of getting hit or arrested, maybe both.
But neither can happen here, so arguments quickly degenerate into vicous name calling and either a suspension or an outright ban.

My personal view is that TOLERANCE should be our goal. We should learn to walk away from our computer for a short while, go make a cup of coffee, BEFORE we respond in anger to something that upsets us.

If that doesn't work tell a Mod, don't throw all the toys out of the pram, tell us what grieves you and we will hopefully be able to sort it.
There might be compromises to be made, but that's got to be better than fighting.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#48782 - 12/21/04 11:42 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
unknownsoldier Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Northwest
I am in a hurry, so if someting here seems blunt, I'm sorry.

I understand that there needs to be a level of safety, and if most of the men who come here want these changes I will abide by them.

But... I would prefer more tranparency to the deleting process, leaving an indicator that something was deleted, or a note of explanation, something like that.

I personally would rather be responsible for letting the mods know that a post is objectinable, rather than having everything filtered for me. Something in me objects to being monitored so strictly. Making posts just vanish doesn't really teach the poster anything. Safety that's enforced by censorship isn't really a safety that I want. If I post something that is offensive, or maybe that someone misunderstands, I would want a chance to hear why and either apologize and or clarify what I was trying to say. I know that there's so many emotions about these topics, but we still have to have our own, adult selves deciding what we are going to say.

As for editing our own posts, I would rather have that right, and maybe have the standard should be to leave a note saying why. Maybe people should be encouraged to, instead fo deleting, make another post about why they wanted to delete it, or how their opinion or perspective has changed.

I definitely respect the mods and think they do a great job of smoothing over the bumps. I just don't want it to be too smooth. The bumps are part oft eh learning process for exercising different skills.

take care.


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#48783 - 12/21/04 11:52 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think the deleting of posts should have a marker.

For instance, if I post something and can't find it, I wondererd whether I did post it in the first place!!!

Confusion can certainly set in here, I'm sure I responded to that! Hmmmmmmmmm, meant to, but maybe I didn't = GRrrrrrrrrr.....

Not knowing is sometimes HELL!

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#48784 - 12/22/04 12:27 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
I was not going to come back here. At all. And I do not trust right now. It is unfair to anyone new here, I know, and that is my guilt. But I will not trust any new names here for a long time, and any new names if I am in chat room, I will be checking the IP addresses. Due to the 'friendship' I thought I have with this person, this whole thing of lies, threats and improper finding and using of personal information have me scared, upset and angry even some. But I am awake now, to manipulation and abuse he did to me while he try to control me. And I realize, it is not most people who do these things.

I have been coming to this site for almost a year. In that year, I have seen major situation like this three times. One was a woman who come here in beginning of year, to try to understand her past boyfriend. She come into chat room, disrespect many people there, then post in the friend and family forum of how these angry men must be possible abusers themself because they become angry with her. She was sent away of here and I do not think been back. Then, in March I think, there was a writer who come here pretending to be a young teenage boy. That person also post as the boys parents few times. That was much more difficult situation, when it is show to be lies, because a younger child get more at the hearts of people here, and they 'invest' quickly. Now is this one, and this one is quite difficult because it involves a person who have been member here for 8 or 9 months (he come near end of the situation in March, I think), and people feel they should know him better then this. So people feel more betrayed, because again, they been more invested. (I should say, this just is how I am seeing it, not to say how people should feel or how they are feel of it).

It is harder for me to be not emotional with this, because it is something that affect me more then I will say here. But I do learn from it, very much. And to this, much as I respect David, I do not know that sensering posts is answer. As I say, there only three situations here in last year that I think were this big, and first one was over in two, three days. There have been few other situations with impact, as they were were of members arguing with each other, that cause some disruption, but not so crazy as this one.

Most the people who post here are smart, are polite and decent with each other. Most are 'real' people, not the 'sock puppets' mentioned in other thread. Most are mature enough to ignore someone or respond in a more polite manner if someone disagree with them. We are all adults here, we have no one posting here that is less then 18 years age right now. I just think that we should be responsible to behave appropriate, and we should be responsible for our actions here.

And also, to see such behavior of someone, it due definitely show the true character of that person. Because this person, even after I am hurt by them, I give second chance, because I had to feel good within myself, and how I deal with it. But to give third chance just will make me be idiot. And that will not happen. Because I seen the true character now. And it is character that disgust me.

I do think that a time limit on editing posts is a good idea. Although the person who most would do that, edit posts to make others look stupid, is gone now. But whoever say that a few minutes is long enough to read again the post and see if it is what we want to say is enough. It take me so long to write out a post, normaly I will have it right in spelling, or so close as I will get. If we want to add something to a post, we can just post something else to it.

Don't moderators already have ability to delete our posts? I think that is safe. I just do not know I would feel safer here if they are doing it more often. We all here have been hurt, and have all had things bad in our lives. But I do think we need to be responsible for how we behave here.

I am sorry, I know this is long post, and it say a lot and not maybe make it in sense so much. But I am having hard time with how I am feeling on all this.

andrei


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#48785 - 12/22/04 12:58 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
In reality the Mods delete or edit very little here, and I know they do try and notify the poster when we do, sometimes we will also put an explanation on the edited post.
It's something that we will try and do everytime from now on.

Most edited posts are done by the poster themselves, often with no explanation at all, which can lead to a lot of misunderstanding.

At the bottom of the edited post you should see "Message edited by Lloydy" or whoever it was that did the editing.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#48786 - 12/22/04 01:03 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Yes I have been here for about 3 years and the mod's really do not edit or delete post. And I have been part of some that sould probley been in the least locked, but they let us vent even when that vent was directed at the powers to be here.

So to the Mod's, Thank you!

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#48787 - 12/22/04 01:06 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
I agree that a short, factual note of why a post was deleted or edited by the moderator would help greatly in smoothing any suspicious feelings.

I'm an infrequent poster on a hobby forum and posted there one day after an absence of some months. Came back later and my post was gone. I thought it strange so posted again. Came back later and post was gone. Posted again, and finally got an e-mail from the mod saying he had deleted the posts because they did not include my name in the signature line (a requirement of that forum). It would have been nice if they had at least simply informed me after the first faux pas that I needed to correct it. Things like that on a forum like MS could quickly spiral out of control due to the already suspicious nature many of us have as abuse survivors. Open communication about issues and what it being done and why will help greatly dispell any fears or angers over editing or deleting of posts.

Thanks again, Dave, for all y'all do here.

_________________________
Eddie

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#48789 - 12/22/04 04:33 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3391
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
I have been a member of this forum for less than one year - but I have been a member on a few other abuse survivor forums for over 3 years now - on all of these forums I have seen fights between members - no site is perfect - most of the fights escalated out of control because of misunderstandings between the people involved and a lack of policys in place to control such problems from escallating out of control.

How to solve the problem??? - well, that really is a very difficult question...(I'll only add my opinion of what has worked at other sites) - I think it is good that the Mod's here already move posts that are questionable to the 'Moderators Forum' for further review - Would it be possible to put in at the botom of the moved post 'moved to Moderators Forum for review' - just so that people would know without question what had happened to the post - and then after it's moved it should be a private email matter between the Moderators and the offending person to resolve the problem contained within the post

Editing??? - Best left to the person who originaly wrote the post - To edit someones 'feelings' is a job that no Moderator can possibly do perfectly - if something is in question that you think needs editing it should be brought to the attention of the moderators who should PM the poster and between them privatly a solution should be agreed upon (often it is as simple as just changeing a few words or adding a line or two to further explain the feelings of why something was said in the fashion in which it was said)

Deleting??? - should only be reserved for outright malicious personal attacks (Mods need to explain to the poster the reasons for which the post was deleted and give consequences for such further actions)(I have seen other sites do a 1,2,3 policy in banning people who maliciously attack others - not sure what the standard is here before someone is banned) - feelings do need to be expressed - it's all part of the healing journey that we are all on - dissagreements will happen (just stop and think for a minute about all of the disagreements that you've had with others outside of this forum in the past week) - dissagreementas are part of the learning process of life - we just need to make sure that there are policies in place to keep dissagreements from escalating into malicious 'word fights'

Being a Moderator of any forum is not an easy job - and to be a moderator of a forum of such a delicate topic makes the job 100% harder - My hats off to the Mod's here for the good job that they do...

Just my nickles worth...

TJ jeff

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#48790 - 12/22/04 05:38 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronco:

Though I am fairly new here, I think this whole foolishness could have been avoided had such a policy been in place.

Bronc
Begging pardon here, but this 'whole foolishness' could have been avoided had stupid people not come here lying their ass off.

I trust the moderators here. They are intelligent men (and one lady, pardon) who make good decisions under difficult situations. They already have power to do their best to keep here safe, and they do that the best they can. I do not know that more 'policing' and deleting will really keep this site safe. I think many situations have shown that censorship is only that.

But I am all for moderators taking more control here right NOW. Because I think tighter control is required right now. I do agree that we are adults here and should be able to behave as such. But at times, there will be to much emotion involved to be so rational as we should be. I know I have been quite guilty of that, and I do apologize.

I guess I just put my trust right now in the moderators, and whatever decision they make, I will trust it to be right.

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#48791 - 12/22/04 04:15 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
There seems to be only one person who has the right to pontificate. Unfortunately, even he is not infallible. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could find a source of indisputable truth?

Who among us has the righteousness to censure our earnest brethren? Is there a Moderator with intentions so pure that they could without accountability delete an others heart felt thoughts? Of course! And that is a presumptuousness which is the danger to your plan.

Man! I can pontificate with the best of them. Does that mean I have nothing worth saying? What is the standard to be? Who would you suppress and for what reason? I have seen the arrogance of certain Moderators in their quest for equilibrium.

Being told what I thought and how I felt “didn’t matter” was the deepest offense. Peace at all costs and justice be damned.

You are correct that this should be a place for healing and that petty bickering should have no part of it. Yet for those of us who have been abused, to act openly in self defense is a necessary lesson in the healing process. My own problem here began not with Moderators deleting posts but from an individual deleting and editing his own post to draw me into a discussion and cause me to appear foolish and ill willed. It looked like I was screaming curses in the wind against the most beloved of blessed souls. The general consensus among Moderators and multiple personalities was that I should just shut up and go away.

I didn’t go away. But I got a lot quieter, offering less help and seeking none. Mostly I just became a lurker, watching and waiting.

So, I guess this is my real question; can you deal fairly with the abuses that occur here? Not blindly, blithely or with insensitivity, but with an eye for rational justice. Can you forgo the desire to impose a perfect peace for the sake of fairness?


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#48792 - 12/22/04 05:24 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Aden a truly well thought out response. Your arguement is quite eloquent. In my case I guess I think the best of people's intentions and sometines I err. It hurts me to see so many in pain for whatever reason. And I agree. Who am I to relegate someone's opinion to the trash heap. If it happened to me I know what it could do.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#48793 - 12/22/04 07:30 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
I think at this point there is no way to restore confidence and trust.

Can the moderators police/control the discussion boards at a level that can guarantee that reprehensible characters, such as have recently wreaked havoc on honesty and decency at this site, don't post here?

No.

Can these characters come back under new and reincarnated identites?

Yes.

Trust and confidence is gone.

Jimmer


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#48794 - 12/22/04 08:43 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
BT Offline


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Chicago IL
I have been watching this discussion and doing my best to keep up with the current problem.

At this point this is simply some questions I would like some opinions on. Please do not take this as a solution of mine, the board, the moderators or anyone else. It is what it is, my questions.

My question is what are your expectations of issues such as trust, confidentiality, etc...on the public forums vs. the member forums?

We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?

I very much want everyone coming to this site to be able to express their views, feelings, and get the support from each other that makes this site so good. And if we are going to do that successfully we must come up with a viable solution to insure as much confidence in this site as possible.

Doing what is necessary to communicate to everyone using and visiting this site that there is a public forum that is succeptible to malicious predatory attack, despite our best efforts to stop this behavior, and a member section that is only accessible to those people whose identities are known to MS, and thus is less likely to have unwanted behavior seems to me a possible solution.

I do understand there will likely be pros and cons in this discussion and already recognize many, but would like to see your discussion rather than my opinions.

With that said, I would very much appreciate your thoughts...

Thank you,
Brent.

_________________________
"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is not my job to change their mind." Dali Lama

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#48795 - 12/22/04 08:48 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Kenn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Toronto, Canada


_________________________
"This above all; to thine own self be true."

William Shakespeare, Hamlet

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#48796 - 12/22/04 09:05 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Kenn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Toronto, Canada
--Edited by Kenn because I quoted back Brent's entire message without posting my response :rolleyes:

--Given what has taken place I now see a much more clear distinction between public and member forums.

We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?

--This, to me, seems like a good idea (yet another advantage to membership). The public forums can be, unfortunately, used like 'spam' to a greater degree or - in this case - to abuse trust.

I very much want everyone coming to this site to be able to express their views, feelings, and get the support from each other that makes this site so good. And if we are going to do that successfully we must come up with a viable solution to insure as much confidence in this site as possible.

--I think some deliberate, well-thought-out disclaimers and warnings - expressing our hopes for the safest possible experience - are already visible but, perhaps, get overlooked.

Doing what is necessary to communicate to everyone using and visiting this site that there is a public forum that is succeptible to malicious predatory attack, despite our best efforts to stop this behavior, and a member section that is only accessible to those people whose identities are known to MS, and thus is less likely to have unwanted behavior seems to me a possible solution.

--Agreed.

--Kenn

_________________________
"This above all; to thine own self be true."

William Shakespeare, Hamlet

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#48797 - 12/22/04 10:28 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Quote:
I agree that a short, factual note of why a post was deleted or edited by the moderator would help greatly in smoothing any suspicious feelings.
Quote:
Would it be possible to put in at the botom of the moved post 'moved to Moderators Forum for review' - just so that people would know without question what had happened to the post - and then after it's moved it should be a private email matter between the Moderators and the offending person to resolve the problem contained within the post
I agree 100%, and it hasn't always happened in the past, we'll try and do better.

Quote:
But I would add that the quarantine forum be a good place as mentioned above. That way the permanent removal would be approved by more than one person so no personal dislikes would influence the decision.
This is something that we nearly always do, we move a 'suspect' post to the Moderators forum for discussion. Again, it's something we need to do every time

Quote:
Editing??? - Best left to the person who originaly wrote the post - To edit someones 'feelings' is a job that no Moderator can possibly do perfectly - if something is in question that you think needs editing it should be brought to the attention of the moderators who should PM the poster and between them privatly a solution should be agreed upon (often it is as simple as just changeing a few words or adding a line or two to further explain the feelings of why something was said in the fashion in which it was said)
We do act as a team, and a very good one I believe.
You're absolutely right that none of us should impose our own personal standards on someones post, and discussions with the poster are desireable at the very minimum.

Quote:
Deleting??? - should only be reserved for outright malicious personal attacks (Mods need to explain to the poster the reasons for which the post was deleted and give consequences for such further actions)(I have seen other sites do a 1,2,3 policy in banning people who maliciously attack others - not sure what the standard is here before someone is banned) -
Personal attacks on another person will always result in action from the mod team.
And we do operate a 'three strikes and you're out' policy. It's not rigid, and we do make every effort to keep people here rather than ban them.
Very few people have been banned, and equally few have had a suspension.

Quote:
- dissagreementas are part of the learning process of life - we just need to make sure that there are policies in place to keep dissagreements from escalating into malicious 'word fights'
Quote:
But I am all for moderators taking more control here right NOW. Because I think tighter control is required right now. I do agree that we are adults here and should be able to behave as such. But at times, there will be to much emotion involved to be so rational as we should be
Totaly true! we are a bunch of emotionally injured people, that's why we're ALL here.
CSA is an emotional subject, and anger is a big part of our lives, but it's something we should also be doing our best to control.
And it's also why we have a set of guidelines and rules.

Quote:
Who among us has the righteousness to censure our earnest brethren? Is there a Moderator with intentions so pure that they could without accountability delete an others heart felt thoughts? Of course! And that is a presumptuousness which is the danger to your plan.
Quote:

Being told what I thought and how I felt “didn’t matter” was the deepest offense. Peace at all costs and justice be damned.
Which is why we must act as a team and involve the person whose post / thoughts are the subject of discussion.
I would be the first to admit we haven't always got it exactly right in the past, but I think we're getting better as the mod team develop together.
Will dubious judgements be made in the future? The answer has to be "yes" for two reasons.
The mod's are volunteers from the membership, all survivors I believe. And our skills are learned the hard way.
The second point is that in every dispute / discussion somebody is bound to feel that they have been hard done to, even with the best compromise possible.
Ans compromises must be achieved sometimes, not least because we have to consider the majority over the individual.

Quote:
So, I guess this is my real question; can you deal fairly with the abuses that occur here? Not blindly, blithely or with insensitivity, but with an eye for rational justice. Can you forgo the desire to impose a perfect peace for the sake of fairness?
We can only try.
But sometimes what starts as a small issue escalates into a riot out of all proportion to the the original issue.
And when that happens something has to give.
We have had instances where we have bent over backwards to reach an amicable compromise and had it thrown back in our faces. What do we do then?
If the mods work as a team then the discussion does become more rational from our side. We have a little moan and vent on our forum and the rest of the team bring us back down to earth.
But sometimes each side ends up in a position where sensible talk is impossible, and that has happened a few times.
The bottom line is, "we try our best".

Quote:
In my case I guess I think the best of people's intentions and sometines I err. It hurts me to see so many in pain for whatever reason. And I agree. Who am I to relegate someone's opinion to the trash heap. If it happened to me I know what it could do.
And this comment is from Mike, one of our mod's.
Which shows that if we do "moan and vent on our forum" someone always comes along with a voice of reason and compassion.

Quote:
Can the moderators police/control the discussion boards at a level that can guarantee that reprehensible characters, such as have recently wreaked havoc on honesty and decency at this site, don't post here?
The poster here answers his own question "No"
And he's right, because as he points out they can return under another identity.
We're getting better at recognising 'dodgy' posts that seem to be deliberately mis-spelled and disguised, but it's the very nature of any site such as this that we don't have total control.
The only practical method of controlling something like this is to make MS a pay site and get credit card details, and that's not 100% foolproof.
The bottom line is, be very careful. It's up to the individual to take a large degree of responsibility for their own safety.
If you want to remain safe then don't give telephone numbers, home address, email address etc to other people. If you do then that's your responsibility, not ours.

Quote:
We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?
( I had to go offline here, and the quotes are now in "-" )

"We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?"

The member forums are a bit safer because we do recieve payment and therefore have some better idea of who's who.
The main safety aspect is that it isn't public.
The predators and pervs aren't going to take the risk of being identified by paying up and then using the forums for whatever it is they want.
Please be aware that we have had predators here in the past, and we act decisively when we find them. But never forget how slimy they can be.

"I very much want everyone coming to this site to be able to express their views, feelings, and get the support from each other that makes this site so good. And if we are going to do that successfully we must come up with a viable solution to insure as much confidence in this site as possible. "

This is our common goal, and why I'm doing my best to reply to everyone here. Keep the thoughts and ideas coming guys, this site is all about 'us' - the mod's included.

Dave ( I'm exhausted after that \:D )

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#48798 - 12/23/04 12:06 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Brent asks a very important question:

"My question is what are your expectations of issues such as trust, confidentiality, etc...on the public forums vs. the member forums?"

I think at a very basic level, individuals who come here should feel some basic trust and confidence in much the same way that they would if they went to another discussion group open to the public on Yahoo or MSN Groups. What makes this site a little different is the nature of why we are here. As I think I've said in another post, we are and were victims of abuse that caused a loss of trust and confidence in other people.

When something happens on the magnitude of what has happened here, where trust is broken, I don't think it can be made to majically come back, given the nature of the loss of trust here (multiple identities compounded by reminders that today's technology allows him to continue to lurk under a new cloak).

I now realize that there isn't much that can be done and because of that I am concerned about any newcomer accessing this board and becoming yet another victim.

For me personally, yes I can go to the member's forum and post there and I feel a little more safe and have a small amount of trust.

For those who are not members and who've been here a long time and contributed greatly, there's not much choice and I know a handful of them have made their choices already: they won't be back.

Jimmer


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#48799 - 12/23/04 08:19 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Raphael Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 67
Dear moderators,

I have been away from MS for a few days and when I came back I saw all those posts about lack of trust, anger, people using info from the site inappropriately, Marc being banned, etc. As I do not know exactly what happened, it makes the situation even more confusing for me - and I believe for others as well, who are getting on board right now. I wonder if it would be possible for the moderators to post a message explaining what happened and what decisions were made since then (I understand you are still in the process of making those decisions) so that it will kind of put an end to this issue and we will all see the "lessons learned" from it.

If I can make another suggestion, perhaps some of those posts related to this chaotic situation could be deleted from the site, specially the ones in the unmoderated forum, (the ones full of anger, deleted messages, etc). I believe all users here often go to different forums and try to read posts from the past to learn from the accumulated knowledge that MS provides. Then wasting time with those confused posts that don't do us any good and may even trigger negative emotions is not helpful at all

I take this opportunity to thank you for the wonderful job you do, for your love and patience with all of us. It is a great bounty to have a place like MS to come to.

Raphael


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#48800 - 12/23/04 03:33 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Well, I think that we're getting down to some wisdom. Brent brought up the difference between our membership side of this site and the public side. For those of us who seek the maximum safety of this place, I would suggest the membership forums.
Suggesting that we post disclaimers about the difference of both sides is an excellent idea, right along with the "Suicide" posts in each forum.
I don't think anyone here is going to censor out another's idea, unless that idea is a statement along the lines of telling someone to jump in the lake...softened to avoid triggering anyone.
But sarcasm, name calling and belittling will push my delete buttons.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why folks would even want to be here if not for an earnest attempt at seeking information and encouragement and maybe giving some in return.
If folks are going to deceive for nefarious reasons...read, perpetrate...they can expect the boot.
I've been here since March '03 and I'm amazed at the incredible amount of love and caring that goes on here. I haven't lost my trust, confidence or love of this place. It's going to take more than a couple of smart asses and folks running around pretending to be someone or something else to get me to turn tail and leave.
This is the greatest site of its kind and I'm eternally grateful for all of you who have made and kept it that way.
I think that we have some answers as to what we can do to make this site even better, and the mods will be making some decisions shortly.
Thank you all for responding, in what I would call, a lively, "family," discussion.
Here's to you, "raising my glass in salute to the incredible members of Male Survivor," and wishes for an even more incredible year in 2005.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#48801 - 12/23/04 06:00 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Quote:
Originally posted by Ivanhoe:
I've been here since March '03 and I'm amazed at the incredible amount of love and caring that goes on here. I haven't lost my trust, confidence or love of this place. It's going to take more than a couple of smart asses and folks running around pretending to be someone or something else to get me to turn tail and leave.
This is the greatest site of its kind and I'm eternally grateful for all of you who have made and kept it that way.
This is the greatest site there is, in my honest opinion. It is a place of peace and calm, even in the moments of turmoil.
I've been a member since June 2003, one of the best things I have ever done for myself. My confidence in and awe of this site strengthens every day.

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#48802 - 12/23/04 08:04 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Ive been here a while as well, and I've seen some really vicous fights here in the past.
And many of us remember that we've had imposters, adults posing as young men, and perps. Sometimes they've been all rolled into one!

But we get over it and move on.

Quote:
I wonder if it would be possible for the moderators to post a message explaining what happened and what decisions were made since then (I understand you are still in the process of making those decisions) so that it will kind of put an end to this issue and we will all see the "lessons learned" from it.
Raphael, at the moment this issue is still in the final stages of being sorted, so we have to be cautious about what we say at the moment.
And even when it's all over it might not be entirely appropriate to describe the whole thing in detail.
But an explanation will be given, everyone desrves that.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#48803 - 12/23/04 09:36 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
brokentoys Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/03/04
Posts: 149
Loc: So. California
Well guys, I hate to break this to you, but this is NOT a problem that is specific to this site, abuse sites, support group sites or any other group of people. I have been involved in the computer industry...well let's just say for a VERY long time and was on the internet before it was the internet that our famous polician takes credit for (sorry for the dig, I dislike politicians all equally!). People have always misrepresented themselves. In fact, before the internet I was in printing and used to print junk mailings for people. We were using "marketing strategies" back then and though not exactly misrepresenting the client, certainly putting them in the best possible light! There will always be people who are not what they appear just like there will always be used cars that are lemons. You have to understand what you are dealing with on the internet. You are dealing with someone who is going to follow their own desire to be honest or not, with little to no chance of getting caught, and most likely no penalties if they do. We are anonymous, at least those of us who use the web to it's fullest potential can be as anonymous as we wish to be. Don't give out potentially damaging information to people on-line unless you don't mind it being spread about the entire world. I do not tell all on the internet, even on this site there are some things that are so private I would never tell anyone here unless we had been friends for many years and probably not even then. Some things I don't tell my family! I'm not saying we cannot support each other, certainly we can, but be aware of the potential for your information to be passed on for any reason or no reason at all. By the way I really liked the comment about showing your butt in group. It was a great visual and made me laugh!
Broken

_________________________
It's easier to go down a hill than up it but the view is much better at the top.

Arnold Bennet

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#48805 - 12/23/04 10:52 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Dear Bronco,

Quote:
If he had such concerns, why not alert the proper people? No. Instead he started the finger pointing.
As you so eloquently pointed out. There are proper channels (read moderators) to express concerns. I am confident the administrators and mods will work it all through. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#48806 - 12/24/04 02:08 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
A number of people have had their access to forums and chat disabled already.
There is a possibility more will follow.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#48807 - 12/24/04 06:59 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
This is getting way too long and sliding off point. I suggest a lock and restart back on point. Leaving out individual complaints and contending strictly with issues of moderation, censorship, and conflict resolution.

Aden


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#48808 - 12/25/04 01:23 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
I thought we were, evidently, you see it differently.

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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