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#48792 - 12/22/04 05:24 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Aden a truly well thought out response. Your arguement is quite eloquent. In my case I guess I think the best of people's intentions and sometines I err. It hurts me to see so many in pain for whatever reason. And I agree. Who am I to relegate someone's opinion to the trash heap. If it happened to me I know what it could do.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#48793 - 12/22/04 07:30 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
I think at this point there is no way to restore confidence and trust.

Can the moderators police/control the discussion boards at a level that can guarantee that reprehensible characters, such as have recently wreaked havoc on honesty and decency at this site, don't post here?

No.

Can these characters come back under new and reincarnated identites?

Yes.

Trust and confidence is gone.

Jimmer


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#48794 - 12/22/04 08:43 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
BT Offline


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Chicago IL
I have been watching this discussion and doing my best to keep up with the current problem.

At this point this is simply some questions I would like some opinions on. Please do not take this as a solution of mine, the board, the moderators or anyone else. It is what it is, my questions.

My question is what are your expectations of issues such as trust, confidentiality, etc...on the public forums vs. the member forums?

We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?

I very much want everyone coming to this site to be able to express their views, feelings, and get the support from each other that makes this site so good. And if we are going to do that successfully we must come up with a viable solution to insure as much confidence in this site as possible.

Doing what is necessary to communicate to everyone using and visiting this site that there is a public forum that is succeptible to malicious predatory attack, despite our best efforts to stop this behavior, and a member section that is only accessible to those people whose identities are known to MS, and thus is less likely to have unwanted behavior seems to me a possible solution.

I do understand there will likely be pros and cons in this discussion and already recognize many, but would like to see your discussion rather than my opinions.

With that said, I would very much appreciate your thoughts...

Thank you,
Brent.

_________________________
"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is not my job to change their mind." Dali Lama

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#48795 - 12/22/04 08:48 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Kenn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Toronto, Canada


_________________________
"This above all; to thine own self be true."

William Shakespeare, Hamlet

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#48796 - 12/22/04 09:05 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Kenn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Toronto, Canada
--Edited by Kenn because I quoted back Brent's entire message without posting my response :rolleyes:

--Given what has taken place I now see a much more clear distinction between public and member forums.

We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?

--This, to me, seems like a good idea (yet another advantage to membership). The public forums can be, unfortunately, used like 'spam' to a greater degree or - in this case - to abuse trust.

I very much want everyone coming to this site to be able to express their views, feelings, and get the support from each other that makes this site so good. And if we are going to do that successfully we must come up with a viable solution to insure as much confidence in this site as possible.

--I think some deliberate, well-thought-out disclaimers and warnings - expressing our hopes for the safest possible experience - are already visible but, perhaps, get overlooked.

Doing what is necessary to communicate to everyone using and visiting this site that there is a public forum that is succeptible to malicious predatory attack, despite our best efforts to stop this behavior, and a member section that is only accessible to those people whose identities are known to MS, and thus is less likely to have unwanted behavior seems to me a possible solution.

--Agreed.

--Kenn

_________________________
"This above all; to thine own self be true."

William Shakespeare, Hamlet

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#48797 - 12/22/04 10:28 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Quote:
I agree that a short, factual note of why a post was deleted or edited by the moderator would help greatly in smoothing any suspicious feelings.
Quote:
Would it be possible to put in at the botom of the moved post 'moved to Moderators Forum for review' - just so that people would know without question what had happened to the post - and then after it's moved it should be a private email matter between the Moderators and the offending person to resolve the problem contained within the post
I agree 100%, and it hasn't always happened in the past, we'll try and do better.

Quote:
But I would add that the quarantine forum be a good place as mentioned above. That way the permanent removal would be approved by more than one person so no personal dislikes would influence the decision.
This is something that we nearly always do, we move a 'suspect' post to the Moderators forum for discussion. Again, it's something we need to do every time

Quote:
Editing??? - Best left to the person who originaly wrote the post - To edit someones 'feelings' is a job that no Moderator can possibly do perfectly - if something is in question that you think needs editing it should be brought to the attention of the moderators who should PM the poster and between them privatly a solution should be agreed upon (often it is as simple as just changeing a few words or adding a line or two to further explain the feelings of why something was said in the fashion in which it was said)
We do act as a team, and a very good one I believe.
You're absolutely right that none of us should impose our own personal standards on someones post, and discussions with the poster are desireable at the very minimum.

Quote:
Deleting??? - should only be reserved for outright malicious personal attacks (Mods need to explain to the poster the reasons for which the post was deleted and give consequences for such further actions)(I have seen other sites do a 1,2,3 policy in banning people who maliciously attack others - not sure what the standard is here before someone is banned) -
Personal attacks on another person will always result in action from the mod team.
And we do operate a 'three strikes and you're out' policy. It's not rigid, and we do make every effort to keep people here rather than ban them.
Very few people have been banned, and equally few have had a suspension.

Quote:
- dissagreementas are part of the learning process of life - we just need to make sure that there are policies in place to keep dissagreements from escalating into malicious 'word fights'
Quote:
But I am all for moderators taking more control here right NOW. Because I think tighter control is required right now. I do agree that we are adults here and should be able to behave as such. But at times, there will be to much emotion involved to be so rational as we should be
Totaly true! we are a bunch of emotionally injured people, that's why we're ALL here.
CSA is an emotional subject, and anger is a big part of our lives, but it's something we should also be doing our best to control.
And it's also why we have a set of guidelines and rules.

Quote:
Who among us has the righteousness to censure our earnest brethren? Is there a Moderator with intentions so pure that they could without accountability delete an others heart felt thoughts? Of course! And that is a presumptuousness which is the danger to your plan.
Quote:

Being told what I thought and how I felt “didn’t matter” was the deepest offense. Peace at all costs and justice be damned.
Which is why we must act as a team and involve the person whose post / thoughts are the subject of discussion.
I would be the first to admit we haven't always got it exactly right in the past, but I think we're getting better as the mod team develop together.
Will dubious judgements be made in the future? The answer has to be "yes" for two reasons.
The mod's are volunteers from the membership, all survivors I believe. And our skills are learned the hard way.
The second point is that in every dispute / discussion somebody is bound to feel that they have been hard done to, even with the best compromise possible.
Ans compromises must be achieved sometimes, not least because we have to consider the majority over the individual.

Quote:
So, I guess this is my real question; can you deal fairly with the abuses that occur here? Not blindly, blithely or with insensitivity, but with an eye for rational justice. Can you forgo the desire to impose a perfect peace for the sake of fairness?
We can only try.
But sometimes what starts as a small issue escalates into a riot out of all proportion to the the original issue.
And when that happens something has to give.
We have had instances where we have bent over backwards to reach an amicable compromise and had it thrown back in our faces. What do we do then?
If the mods work as a team then the discussion does become more rational from our side. We have a little moan and vent on our forum and the rest of the team bring us back down to earth.
But sometimes each side ends up in a position where sensible talk is impossible, and that has happened a few times.
The bottom line is, "we try our best".

Quote:
In my case I guess I think the best of people's intentions and sometines I err. It hurts me to see so many in pain for whatever reason. And I agree. Who am I to relegate someone's opinion to the trash heap. If it happened to me I know what it could do.
And this comment is from Mike, one of our mod's.
Which shows that if we do "moan and vent on our forum" someone always comes along with a voice of reason and compassion.

Quote:
Can the moderators police/control the discussion boards at a level that can guarantee that reprehensible characters, such as have recently wreaked havoc on honesty and decency at this site, don't post here?
The poster here answers his own question "No"
And he's right, because as he points out they can return under another identity.
We're getting better at recognising 'dodgy' posts that seem to be deliberately mis-spelled and disguised, but it's the very nature of any site such as this that we don't have total control.
The only practical method of controlling something like this is to make MS a pay site and get credit card details, and that's not 100% foolproof.
The bottom line is, be very careful. It's up to the individual to take a large degree of responsibility for their own safety.
If you want to remain safe then don't give telephone numbers, home address, email address etc to other people. If you do then that's your responsibility, not ours.

Quote:
We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?
( I had to go offline here, and the quotes are now in "-" )

"We obviously can control access much better in the member forums, so should we do such things as make stronger more obvious statements in the public forum areas about risks and explain access and control of access in the member vs public forums?"

The member forums are a bit safer because we do recieve payment and therefore have some better idea of who's who.
The main safety aspect is that it isn't public.
The predators and pervs aren't going to take the risk of being identified by paying up and then using the forums for whatever it is they want.
Please be aware that we have had predators here in the past, and we act decisively when we find them. But never forget how slimy they can be.

"I very much want everyone coming to this site to be able to express their views, feelings, and get the support from each other that makes this site so good. And if we are going to do that successfully we must come up with a viable solution to insure as much confidence in this site as possible. "

This is our common goal, and why I'm doing my best to reply to everyone here. Keep the thoughts and ideas coming guys, this site is all about 'us' - the mod's included.

Dave ( I'm exhausted after that \:D )

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#48798 - 12/23/04 12:06 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Brent asks a very important question:

"My question is what are your expectations of issues such as trust, confidentiality, etc...on the public forums vs. the member forums?"

I think at a very basic level, individuals who come here should feel some basic trust and confidence in much the same way that they would if they went to another discussion group open to the public on Yahoo or MSN Groups. What makes this site a little different is the nature of why we are here. As I think I've said in another post, we are and were victims of abuse that caused a loss of trust and confidence in other people.

When something happens on the magnitude of what has happened here, where trust is broken, I don't think it can be made to majically come back, given the nature of the loss of trust here (multiple identities compounded by reminders that today's technology allows him to continue to lurk under a new cloak).

I now realize that there isn't much that can be done and because of that I am concerned about any newcomer accessing this board and becoming yet another victim.

For me personally, yes I can go to the member's forum and post there and I feel a little more safe and have a small amount of trust.

For those who are not members and who've been here a long time and contributed greatly, there's not much choice and I know a handful of them have made their choices already: they won't be back.

Jimmer


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#48799 - 12/23/04 08:19 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Raphael Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 67
Dear moderators,

I have been away from MS for a few days and when I came back I saw all those posts about lack of trust, anger, people using info from the site inappropriately, Marc being banned, etc. As I do not know exactly what happened, it makes the situation even more confusing for me - and I believe for others as well, who are getting on board right now. I wonder if it would be possible for the moderators to post a message explaining what happened and what decisions were made since then (I understand you are still in the process of making those decisions) so that it will kind of put an end to this issue and we will all see the "lessons learned" from it.

If I can make another suggestion, perhaps some of those posts related to this chaotic situation could be deleted from the site, specially the ones in the unmoderated forum, (the ones full of anger, deleted messages, etc). I believe all users here often go to different forums and try to read posts from the past to learn from the accumulated knowledge that MS provides. Then wasting time with those confused posts that don't do us any good and may even trigger negative emotions is not helpful at all

I take this opportunity to thank you for the wonderful job you do, for your love and patience with all of us. It is a great bounty to have a place like MS to come to.

Raphael


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#48800 - 12/23/04 03:33 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Well, I think that we're getting down to some wisdom. Brent brought up the difference between our membership side of this site and the public side. For those of us who seek the maximum safety of this place, I would suggest the membership forums.
Suggesting that we post disclaimers about the difference of both sides is an excellent idea, right along with the "Suicide" posts in each forum.
I don't think anyone here is going to censor out another's idea, unless that idea is a statement along the lines of telling someone to jump in the lake...softened to avoid triggering anyone.
But sarcasm, name calling and belittling will push my delete buttons.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why folks would even want to be here if not for an earnest attempt at seeking information and encouragement and maybe giving some in return.
If folks are going to deceive for nefarious reasons...read, perpetrate...they can expect the boot.
I've been here since March '03 and I'm amazed at the incredible amount of love and caring that goes on here. I haven't lost my trust, confidence or love of this place. It's going to take more than a couple of smart asses and folks running around pretending to be someone or something else to get me to turn tail and leave.
This is the greatest site of its kind and I'm eternally grateful for all of you who have made and kept it that way.
I think that we have some answers as to what we can do to make this site even better, and the mods will be making some decisions shortly.
Thank you all for responding, in what I would call, a lively, "family," discussion.
Here's to you, "raising my glass in salute to the incredible members of Male Survivor," and wishes for an even more incredible year in 2005.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#48801 - 12/23/04 06:00 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Quote:
Originally posted by Ivanhoe:
I've been here since March '03 and I'm amazed at the incredible amount of love and caring that goes on here. I haven't lost my trust, confidence or love of this place. It's going to take more than a couple of smart asses and folks running around pretending to be someone or something else to get me to turn tail and leave.
This is the greatest site of its kind and I'm eternally grateful for all of you who have made and kept it that way.
This is the greatest site there is, in my honest opinion. It is a place of peace and calm, even in the moments of turmoil.
I've been a member since June 2003, one of the best things I have ever done for myself. My confidence in and awe of this site strengthens every day.

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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