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#4699 - 06/17/05 01:42 AM Please don't go.
RangerJ19 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 42
Loc: North Woods
A member here has asked me to leave, and said that they would stop coming otherwise.

Please, don't go.

It is more important to me that you stay. You have more right to be here than I do.

I will not post here again.

Thank you all for your time.

_________________________
Life is worth living.
'Cause of legal issues and the fact i'm still trying to get better, I don't PM or chat w/ minors.

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#4700 - 06/17/05 02:12 AM Re: Please don't go.
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
If it is member I am thinking of, who I just talk with, he is already left for while, and is not just because of you.

I will say, although I have not responded to your posts (I have not been here to respond to much recently), I have read them, and I think you are a decent-seeming man. Of course, so does my abuser, in public, so perhaps I am not best judge of character. But, you made a huge mistake, you come here and admit it openly, you have paid for it socially. I do respect your owning up to things. There have been people here who have subtly (and sometime more overtly) abused other members here who never own up to it.

You are a survivor. You are a perpetrator also, and I think it could be difficult for people to decide with which eyes and mind you are speaking here.

I just wish to say, I think you have been ok here.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#4701 - 06/17/05 02:17 PM Re: Please don't go.
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Ranger,

Truthfully, if you're a survivor as well as a perp, then you need this site. I admit myself that I'm very unnerved by your admissions, and since they remind me in a lot of ways of the person who abused me, I really feel no trust for you. I also feel that there's a great deal of work you STILL have to do for yourself before you should be so open.

On the other hand, the fact that you're admitting what you've done, and are taking responsibility for your actions tell me that you're trying to heal, trying to make amends for what you've done.

As long as you're monitored, as long as there are people watching you so you don't backslide into a dangerous situation for yourself or others, I have no problem with you working on your own abuse issues. Just, please, for my sake and the sake of other survivors here, restrict your de>
_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#4702 - 06/17/05 03:02 PM Re: Please don't go.
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Ranger,

I will admit that when I first saw who you were I was shocked and full of conflicting emotions. But the fact remains that you are a survivor as well.

Another thing I thought of was that you could easily have just come here as a survivor and deceived everyone about the other problems you have. Thanks for your honesty and for providing the whole picture.

I suppose the bottom line is that this situation is uneasy for everyone. It must have been a tough call for the mods/BoD. But they have made their decision, based on what I am sure is a careful review of everything, and this is their decision. The group as a whole now has to work with that. A community can't survive if its members claim the right of personal veto on every issue that affects them deeply.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#4703 - 06/17/05 06:19 PM Re: Please don't go.
Maynard Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 49


_________________________
"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning." Mahatma Gandhi

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#4704 - 06/17/05 10:08 PM Re: Please don't go.
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
This was originally sent to ranger as a PM but, seeing the other responses, I felt I wanted to share my position on this as well:
__________________________________________________

Ranger - After having read some of your posts, most jarringly your first post here on May 2nd, I posted publicly to the message board. I was outraged that you were allowed to post here. I no longer felt safe. I no longer felt I could be here and share with the others. For all I knew, you could be one of my abusers, the last people on earth that I want sharing in my recovery.

My post was promptly removed by one of the moderators who PM'd me to advise me that he had removed it. I felt further outrage that I, a survivor, not an offender, was being censored for attempting to alert those who may not have been aware that an abuser was in our midst.

I requested that the moderators keep you from the site or I would no longer be able to utilize this support system, or, more importantly, be able to come here to offer help to those who are in their early stages of recovery. I have been waiting since Tuesday for them to make a decision, all the while, using a great deal of strength in an effort not to contact you directly or make another public post.

I feel a deep sense of responsibility to protect others from predators. And, while you have disclosed who you are as an offender, I do not trust that you have been completely upfront. I do not trust sexual abusers anyway, in any form. You yourself stated in a thread to puppy that once an offender has crossed that line, he is forever at risk to do it again. For all you or I know, your victim may come here to get support. You and he do not belong in the same place together, despite the anonymity we are afforded.

I tell you all of this because I don't know if my request came to you from an indirect source or if another member has also requested that you be barred from the site. I like to be understood and want others to know that my motives are genuine. I support and encourage your offer to leave.

That said, I would not feel right if you were to leave without some sort of alternative to this site. You claim that you are not only an offender, you are a survivor. Most offenders are. All of us need help. Me to heal from what was done to me. You so that you will no longer hurt yourself or anyone else. I have found a list of resources that may be better geared to someone in your position and hope that you will find the help and support you need there. The list is posted below. I am going to copy this message to the moderator that I have been corresponding with so that I am on the up and up and so that you will know that I intend nothing covert or malicious.

Information and Referrals for Adults
The Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers (ATSA)
4900 S.W. Griffith Drive, Suite 274, Beaverton, OR 97005
Office: (503) 643-1023 Fax: (503) 643-5084
Email: atsa@atsa.com
http://www.atsa.com

ATSA was founded to foster research, facilitate information exchange, further professional education, and provide advancement of professional standards and practices in the field of sex offender evaluation and treatment. ATSA provides referrals for affiliated sex offender treatment providers throughout the United States.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Council on Sexual Addiction and Compulsivity (NCSAC)
The National Office, PO Box 725544, Atlanta, GA 31139
Office: (770) 541-9912
Email: ncsac@mindspring.com
http://www.ncsac.org
NCSAC promotes public and professional recognition, awareness and understanding of sexual addiction, sexual compulsivity and sexual offending. NCSAC provides public and professional access to education, information and referral resources for those who specialize in the treatment of sex addiction.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Safer Society Foundation, Inc. (SSFI)
PO Box 340, Brandon, VT 05733-0340
Office: (802) 247-3132 Fax: (802) 247-4233
http://www.safersociety.org
SSFI is a national research, advocacy and referral center dedicated to the prevention and treatment of sexual abuse. They offer a variety of services including, sex offender treatment referrals, responses to research requests, and training and consultation. The Safer Society Press offers publications for treatment providers, child & adult offenders, survivors and mandated reporters. A free catalog is available.
Sexual Abuser Treatment Referral Line is a national referral service operated by SSFI for anyone interested in locating a treatment provider for an individual with sexual behavior problems.
Office: (802) 247-3132 (Monday through Friday, 9AM-4:30PM, EST) To fax request: (802) 247-4233
To email request: tammyk@sover.net.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sex Abuse Treatment Alliance (SATA)
PO Box 1191, Okemos, MI 48805-1191
Office: (517) 482-2085 or (517) 372-8207
Email: help@satasort.org
http://www.satasort.org

SATA is a non-profit organization to prevent sexual abuse by: educating the public, supporting and working with those who have abused and who have been abused; sharing resources and referrals for those abused, the abusers and treatment providers; and promoting research about sex offender treatment. SATA provides a network of support for abusers who are currently in treatment and to those in prison.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stop It Now!
351 Pleasant Street, Suite B319, Northampton, MA 01060
Office: (413) 587-3500 Fax: (413) 587-3505
Helpline: 1-888-PREVENT (1-888-773-8368)
Email: info@stopitnow.org
http://www.stopitnow.org
Stop It Now! is a national, public health based organization working to prevent child sexual abuse. They educate adults including people at risk for abusing and their families and friends about the ways to prevent child sexual abuse and promote the policy changes at the local and national level to support prevention strategies.
Stop It Now! Helpline is a toll-free number for adults who are at risk for sexually abusing a child, for friends and family members of sexual abusers and/or victims, and for parents of children with sexual behavior problems. This helpline service is confidential, available Monday through Friday, 9:00AM-5:00PM (EST) at 1-888-PREVENT (1-888-773-8368).


Information and Referrals for Juveniles
The Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers (ATSA)
4900 S.W. Griffith Drive, Suite 274, Beaverton, OR 97005
Office: (503) 643-1023 Fax: (503) 643-5084
Email: atsa@atsa.com
http://www.atsa.com

ATSA was founded to foster research, facilitate information exchange, further professional education, and provide advancement of professional standards and practices in the field of sex offender evaluation and treatment. ATSA provides referrals for affiliated sex offender treatment providers throughout the United States.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Adolescent Perpetration Network (NAPN)
Kempe Children's Center, 1825 Marion Street, Denver, CO 80218 Office: (303) 864-5192 Fax: (303) 837-2791
Email: Ryan.Gail@tchden.org
http://www.kempecenter.org/about.htm
NAPN is a cooperative network of professionals working with sexually abusive youth. NAPN provides information and referrals, publishes a biannual newsletter, hosts annual national conferences, and encourages the development of regional networks. Individuals seeking treatment can contact Gail Ryan for information or referrals.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Safer Society Foundation, Inc. (SSFI)
PO Box 340, Brandon, VT 05733-0340
Office: (802) 247-3132 Fax: (802) 247-4233
http://www.safersociety.org
SSFI is a national research, advocacy and referral center dedicated to the prevention and treatment of sexual abuse. They offer a variety of services including, sex offender treatment referrals, responses to research requests, and training and consultation. The Safer Society Press offers publications for treatment providers, child & adult offenders, survivors and mandated reporters. A free catalog is available.
Sexual Abuser Treatment Referral Line is a national referral service operated by SSFI for anyone interested in locating a treatment provider for an individual with sexual behavior problems.
Office: (802) 247-3132 (Monday through Friday, 9AM-4:30PM, EST) To fax request: (802) 247-4233
To email request: tammyk@sover.net.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stop It Now!
351 Pleasant Street, Suite B319, Northampton, MA 01060
Office: (413) 587-3500 Fax: (413) 587-3505
Helpline: 1-888-PREVENT (1-888-773-8368)
Email: info@stopitnow.org
http://www.stopitnow.org
Stop It Now! is a national, public health based organization working to prevent child sexual abuse. They educate adults including people at risk for abusing and their families and friends about the ways to prevent child sexual abuse and promote the policy changes at the local and national level to support prevention strategies.
Stop It Now! Helpline is a toll-free number for adults who are at risk for sexually abusing a child, for friends and family members of sexual abusers and/or victims, and for parents of children with sexual behavior problems. This helpline service is confidential, available Monday through Friday, 9:00AM-5:00PM (EST) at 1-888-PREVENT (1-888-773-8368).


Self-help for Sexual Addictions
Sex Addicts Anonymous (SAA)
ISO of SAA, PO Box 70949, Houston, TX 77270
Office: 713-869-4902 Toll free: 1-800-477-8191
Email: info@saa-recovery.org
http://www.saa-recovery.org

SAA is not a therapy group, but a 12-step fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other so that they may overcome their sexual addiction and help others recover. A list of SAA meetings can be obtained by calling or checking online.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sexaholics Anonymous (SA)
PO Box 111910, Nashville, TN 37222
Office: (615) 331-6230 Fax: (615) 331-6901
Email: saico@sa.org
http://www.sa.org
SA is a 12-step fellowship of men and women whose lust has become an addiction and wish to become sexually sober. SA also has a program that allows prisoners to receive information and be put in touch with other sexaholics in prison. Publications, manuals, and brochures on SA are available.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sexual Compulsives Anonymous (SCA)
PO Box 1585, Old Chelsea Station, New York, NY 10011
Office: (212) 439-1123
Toll free: 1-800-977-HEAL (1-800-977-4325)
Email: info@sca-recovery.org
Anonymous email: enter website, click on "how to contact us" click on "email" and then click on anon.twwells.com.
http://www.sca-recovery.org
SCA is a 12-Step fellowship of men and women having difficulties with sexual compulsion. SCA has state chapters, a newsletter, a support oriented chat room and an online bookstore. A list of SCA meetings can be obtained by calling or checking online.


Online Resources
Cybersexualaddiction.com
http://www.cybersexualaddiction.com

A resource and referral information website for individuals seeking help with addictive or compulsive computer-based sexual activity. The site, designed and maintained by experts in the sexual addiction and recovery field, provides a variety of articles, books, self-tests and links to counseling for addicts and their family members.


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#4705 - 06/17/05 10:41 PM Re: Please don't go.
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Ranger, I promised not to post to you and I dont want any response to my reply.

It goes like this.

I know that you come here after being maybe abused in life, and for that fact then I absolve you of some of the hurt you may be going thru as an abuse survivor.

Hurt in abuse is so damaging, and it beyond imagination of how kids fathom out their lives beyond that point, or that is how it is for me in past experiences.

At 51yo, I suppose, that I never really got beyond the point of looking back on a childhood of despair, and it affected everything that I could ever even dream about in life.

It hurts today, not so much as the trauma that followed what I went through when I was violently r*ped and the ensuing consequences, including being on perp radar through most of my child life.

My childhood was a fight, an internal fight, that nobody could figure, so it left me in a state of perpetual blame, which i of course blame on myself.

I blame it on myself for thinking that I am small and not able to be who I was meant to really be in this crazy World.

I have no way of really changing past events, they happened, but i have to say they hurt, and they hurt so much it changed everything in my life.

I know that trauma got me to nearly take my life twice, and it nearly went my way when I was a child when I could not stand the mental hurt, but I got rescued by well meaning people.

Maybe nobody got to know my hurt, but at least you admit to what you do and I can never disgrace you for it, and I think that if you need help then you maybe post stuff in at risk forum.

I ask anyone who has been abused to be aware of peoples' feelings in a public forum, the gravity can be enormous, and it is I suppose, an obvious thing to say, but just try and keep other people safe here.

This place is built on safety,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#4707 - 06/18/05 01:44 AM Re: Please don't go.
RockyMtJoe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 97
Loc: East of Pueblo, Colorado
Dear Ranger,

I am imposing a ban on my posting for say two months.

I will message Jasper and give him an email
for me, so J Man, I can not walk out.

I support your staying with whatever conditions,
I Lost it: not due to my sex abuse but over the
way.

I am sorry, I allowed Vietnam PTSD to creap in my post. I am "ok" with the CSA but Vietnam never goes away.

You are also a "brother" as much as that may cause folks a problem, so be it. I but for being
a skinny fairy may have done as much.

Jasper, I feel I let you down and I am ashamed.


Hey, I may be a nut but I am an honest one.

I should have offered Ranger support, instead I tossed out harsh words.

Mea Cupa


Joe


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#4708 - 06/18/05 10:02 AM Re: Please don't go.
sophiesdad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 462
Loc: Florida


_________________________
There are no unresolved issues - they just didn't resolve themselves the way we would have liked. "Grinder and Bandler - Neuro-Linguistic Programming"

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#4709 - 06/18/05 10:45 AM Re: Please don't go.
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
In fear of becoming like all that have posted hear I will only say ONE THING I AM EXTREAMLY DISAPOINTED IN THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE AND I AM BLOWN AWAY THAT ANYONE OF US COULD TREAT ANOTHER IN THIS WAY CONSIDERING WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH. There have been a couple of times now that I have had this disapointment arise and I wish there was something I could do to make these kind of responces stop. We are all hear for support not more criticisim. We have all made mistakes and we do not need harm we need love and nurishment. It is respoces like this that will make all of the world stay the same that it is. Ranger my friend and fellow brother not only do I support you to stay but I beg you to. People need to get to know you and realize that you are not this monster that they all seem to want you to be. Just as much as it is importent for myself and all of them to have a voice getting that voice is important for you as well. Please dont leave help us all to learn the lesson that you were a victim as well and that you have feelings and most importantly deserve just as much love as we do. Help us all get to the place where the entire world needs to be in order to stop what we all hate most, (the despair of the act of child sexual abuse.) Help us understand that the only way to stop it is to treat all that is involved with love and compation. Help us all understand that love is the only house for all the pain in the world. Help us realize we will never get anywhere where without that healing love that I speak of. Please God don't leave. I will beg for all it is worth. I care about you and want to help you as much as I can just as much as I want to help everyone else. You are more than welcome in my eyes. To me you are just as important as everyone else.

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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#4710 - 06/18/05 09:42 PM Re: Please don't go.
iansMe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 6
Loc: NC
Ranger,

I agree with "Sinking" that this is NOT the best site for you. In "Sinking's" post he made an excellent comment that I think is worth repeating: What happens if the survior of your abuse shows up here for support? Please be sensitive and respectful to his needs. Therefore, I think you should leave.

Can anyone tell me what the moderators have concluded about this issue? Thanks


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#4711 - 06/19/05 01:22 AM Re: Please don't go.
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by Malidin41:
In fear of becoming like all that have posted hear I will only say ONE THING I AM EXTREAMLY DISAPOINTED IN THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE AND I AM BLOWN AWAY THAT ANYONE OF US COULD TREAT ANOTHER IN THIS WAY CONSIDERING WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH.
'All that have posted here'??? Have you not read the responses? Can you truly not see that many of them show support, compassion and SOME attempt to understand how another, fellow abuse survivor has gone on to abuse someone else, but perhaps still has maintained his humanity?

There is SO much I want to say right now. But will reign myself in somewhat. I will attempt to maintain some maturity and civility.

However. Did you read 'the' post that had most members here so trigered, where this man (after having been asked, yes) posted graphic details of how he sexually abused another person? It is not longer here, it has been removed. Unless you read THAT post, I would suggest that you are quite hasty with your negative judgement of the members here and of this site in general. And if you had read that post, and are this negatively judging of the members who were legitamitely upset and triggered by it, well, what is it of the pot and the kettle?

If you did not interpret it as such, my response to Ranger was an attempt at support and understanding. I will say also, here, that I reached out to him in PM and offered to remain as someone he can contact if he does leave here, even though we had not spoken before. Do not judge ME by what you THINK you read. I think Ranger could be quite a good resource here, however, in limited quantities. It would seem some people think he could be some 'Perpetrator Yoda', who has all the answers to the 'Why' questions so many of us ask. Perhaps he can answer those questions. About HIMSELF. He is not my abuser. He is nothing like my abuser, from what I have read. Only MY abuser can tell me 'WHY'. Only Scot's can tell him. Only Jasper's, and Sophiesdad's and Ste's can tell them. Ranger does NOT have the answers for me, for you, or anyone else here that HE DID NOT ABUSE. He can explain his thinking, his mindset, etc. That will give us more insight into HIM. Not into abusers and perpetrators in general.

Malidin, I would like to know. Would you invite YOUR abuser here, to share in your healing process, to promote better understanding? The person or persons responsible for you feeling the need to find this kind of site? Would you want them reading about your triggers, your flashbacks, your nightmares, your addictions, negative coping, cutting, drinking, suicidal thoughts, poor social skills, fears, loss of job opportunities, loss of relationships, psychiatric diagnoses and long term physical and mental affects of what was done to you? Would you like him, or them, to know all that about you, and know that THEY caused it? Do you truly think your abuser or abusers would feel sorry they did that? Or would they get some kind of little 'kick' out of knowing their power far outlasted the actual acts of abuse? Honestly, I would like to know, because if so, if that would not bother you, you are a FAR better and bigger man then me. Perhaps your abuse was different from mine. No two people are the same. But I would totaly freak if I suspected my abuser was here, reading what I say about it's affects on me, because he would truly enjoy the shit out of it. I know him.

Somethings I think are sad about this situation. A few decent, GOOD, genuine giving and loving people have left here because of this. Including one who personally reached out to this man in attempts to understand better and NOT be negatively judging. Many others are staying on the member forums, where they feel it is safer. Meanwhile, new people and hurting people here, on the public side, their thoughts and words are being ignored, when they most are needing responses. I have not been here much, and usually when I do come here, I start with reading the member side. Perhaps I need to reverse that right now. Because greater then 90% of persons here have not offended upon another, and are here only in one 'way', without the other negative possibility. THEY deserve help. No one here is 'more' deserving of being here then others, who is a survivor. But the newer and more vulnerable here, they deserve for this site to be safe, not a place of animosity and uproar.

I wish you well. But I question my ability to ever be so 'healed' as you appear.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#4712 - 06/19/05 01:42 AM Re: Please don't go.
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I have read posts where victims/survivors have forgiven their abuser/s.

I now read posts where the abuser is 'sorry' for the victim.

Only the victim/survivor can give forgiveness - it is no one else's right to demand that forgiveness.

It is good to read that an abuser realises that what they did was wrong (assuming that they are genuine).

Each of us can only really decide whether or not we can forgive our abuser/s.

My abuser is still in denial - I have tortured myself since Sept 1969 because of his actions. I complained about him to the police 17th Oct last year (2004) - he has denied everything. There is a Crown Court case pending - I don't think that I can ever forgive him now, because he is intent on extending the torture that he has imposed on me. He is not a man - he will not admit what he did...he can rot!!!

Ranger, if you are genuine, then I hope that you never abuse again. I don't know that I have an opinion on whether you post here or not, all I can think of is:

If I read your posts when I first came here, would I have stayed? Would I have recovered, or would I still be out in the wilderness seeking something that I would never find?

My honest answer is that you should maybe read what is written here, but do not seek forgiveness from those that are trying to find answers.

Best wishes again to everyone...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#4713 - 06/19/05 07:15 AM Re: Please don't go.
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
The Shark and the Turtle

The Shark once asked the turtle for a ride across the sea

The Turtle said, "I'm sorry, I can't, it would be the end of me. You are, as you know, a shark," he said, "My Father told me of your kind. He said to stay away from your type, and his words still come to mind."

The Shark replied, "I'm different, I'm your brother, and a friend. Besides, you're keen with wisdom, not like the rest of them. Take me across the sea," he said, "and you'll see how fine I am. Before I'd hurt you, I'd cut out my heart and bury it in the sand."

The Turtle said, "okay, my friend, my brother, lets begin." But no sooner had they left the shore when the demon prepared to sin. As they advanced on through the waves the Turtle was struck by pain. The shark then took another bite, and said, "My, what a shame."

Before the turtle died he heard the shark's voice harsh and shrill.
"Why, never trust a shark, for it's his nature, and he'll kill."
Thomas Flynn - 1959 San Quentin


.....Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#4714 - 06/19/05 03:40 PM Re: Please don't go.
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
The ratio of supportive responses to the perpetrator versus the supportive responses to the innocent victims who never used their past to abuse others is about 7 to 3. That figure does not account for my own post, which, by the way, was amazingly compassionate by offering alternative resources for ranger.

Watching this unfold over the last several days, I have been astounded by the support given to an admitted abuser. So many are concerned with his feelings, with treating him with compassion and understanding. Few have shown the same concern for what I or others are feeling, we who have not abused children, we who have been abused by others and, most certainly, have lived a lifetime of agony because of what those abusers did to us.

I agree that ranger has 'seemed' genuine. He seemed genuine when he was offering solace to the father of a boy who was recently sexually abused in the Family and Friends forum. He can't imagine what the father is facing since he himself is not a father. But he knows of another father/son who faced something similar and, guess what? The father and son are now closer than ever before because they faced it together. The sexual abuse actually had a positive impact in the end. This is the reasoning of an offender. And it literally makes me feel sick to my stomach. And most of you want him to stay. And the silence of the moderators is deafening!!!

To his credit, ranger has kept his word and not posted since he announced that he would no longer post. If you are reading this ranger, please continue to keep your word.

And to those who have not spoken yet on this issue, please do. I think it is tremendously important that survivors feel safe here. If support continues to go the way of the perps, I will have to leave, although that seems to be of little importance to many of you. If, as I think it should be, perps are barred from this formerly safe haven, I will continue to come here to learn, to ask for support and to provide whatever help I can to those who need it. Please keep this site safe for me and for the victims/survivors of all the perps out there...keep them out there!!!


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#4715 - 06/19/05 06:40 PM Re: Please don't go.
delta.tetra Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Netherlands
OK as Sinking asked for input from people who remained silent so far.
'Rangerj9' should stay away from this forum - forever.

1. I hope the Administrators delete the abuser user account, and ban his
IP address to stop him even lurking here, if that is possible.

2. Saying a perp needs this site is rubbish. Doesn't media etc say, "90
percent of perpetrators of abuse were themselves once victims of CSA"?
If that is true then any support system for perpetrators is
automatically by definition a support system for people who were once
abused. Therefore there can be no need whatsoever for a CSA perpetrator
abuser to come to a non-abusing-survivor site for CSA support.

3. I'm shocked by the list of thirteen 'support for perverts and
abusers' organisations Sinking posted above. THERE AREN'T THAT MANY
PLACES FOR SURVIVORS!

4. Perps out! I hope that site policy here would be that any known, self-
confessed CSA perpetrators get thrown out of this website, and banned
forever by the admin.

5. I wrote most the same things yesterday and the day before but didn't
post, thinking it was better to stay out.

6. It is complete rubbish to suggest that I might learn anything about
the abuse done to me, by there being some random self-confessed abuser
posting poison here.

7. If child abusers are going to be allowed to stay or even welcomed,
for any reason, I'll certainly just forget this place.

8. What happened to the man this thread was adressed to? Nobody asks
about that. Did he stay or did he go?


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#4716 - 06/19/05 07:09 PM Re: Please don't go.
sabooka Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 209
Loc: I would like to know also
I have been torn about this for awhile and to be honest I do not feel as safe here as I did when I first arrived.

After reading most of what was written about this subject I have come to the following conclusions.

1.This site is meant to be a safe place for CSA survivers to heal. Not all CSA survivers feel comfortable with perps here.

2. We are all responsible for our own actions as adults. Our lives as adults reflect both our past (childhood) and our choices in life (adulthood). Considering that the choice to abuse someone happens in adulthood, therefore is a choice, would put the perp aspect of the person ahead of the CSA aspect of the person.

***this is not dimminishing the responsiblity of those who abused others as children but the issues are different. ***

3. There exist a larger number of resources for perps that do not exist for male CSA.

With those things said I think it is also important that when someone is trying to heal them selves they are helped.

After seeing all the resources for perps I think that it would be better for all conserned if this site was perp free.

I realize that this must be very difficult for the Mod's and the Board because on the one hand there is the safety of the members and on the other hand there is being accesible to all who need help.


This disscusion is taking away from the real reason for us being here and that is to help each other heal. I hope that in the outcome of this there are some clearer rules about membership and safety.

That is what I think.
Jonathan

_________________________
My happiness is not dependant on other people's misery.

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#4717 - 06/19/05 07:49 PM Re: Please don't go.
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
I think my thoughts on this subject are pretty clear over on the Members side, but will post here for those who are not members.

To suggest that survivors are insensitive to the needs of a perp who himself was abused is the height of arrogance, in my opinion. I have no sympathy WHATSOEVER for any perp, abused or not. If it sounds like there's a big chip on my shoulder, then it's bacause there is. And for his supporters to talk condescendingly to victims here who feel this way is hypocritical (since they are now the ones intolerant of our views). Remember who the victims are here - we didn't "ask for it", as much as the perps would like you to believe that.

On Wednesday, I had resolved to leave MS in the turmoil of this. Upon reflection, I am resolved to stay until the moderators announce the changes they plan to implement. I refuse to let a perp further control me through my healing.

I have no desire whatsoever to learn about what made Ranger like he is. It is totally irrelevant to the abuse that occurred to me. I have made suggestions to the mods as to how perps can exist here, but be segregated from the rest of the victim population through separate forums. If we must exist together here at MS, then my hope is that there will be places of safety away from perps altogether where victims can heal in safety.

_________________________
Eddie

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#4719 - 06/19/05 09:13 PM Re: Please don't go.
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
In response to item #8 on delta-tetra's list, I believe I am the first to have said I would leave if ranger did not. I had been corresponding with one of the mods who removed my original post in which I expressed my outrage at the presence of an abuser on this site. That was last Tuesday, I have been repeatedly told that the mods and the board are working very hard on this. Tomorrow marks a week since they have been working on it but they have yet to make any public announcements about where they stand.

I have decided to stay until this is brought to a conclusion. I have decided to stand up and face the abuser, something none of us were able to do when we were being abused. I can now and intend to fight to make this place as safe as it was when I first came here a year and a half ago. But, if the board and the mods decide that it is okay for perps to be here, to post their 'insights' and to, literally, put survivors at risk, I will have no choice but to leave.

That said, what a relief to finally see the voices of support that are speaking up. My wife and I have been confounded all week long by the support given to the abuser vs. the lack of support for my position. Thank you guys for speaking up. Together we can and must save this site. It is for us, not for perps. And, like delta said above, the statistics say 80% of abusers were themselves abused. Where then would MS.org draw the line. I say it should be drawn at zero. Zero perps should be allowed in here and no more than that. Keep them out!!


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#4720 - 06/19/05 09:42 PM Re: Please don't go.
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
After 41 years of living in silence, of CSA, and sometimes torturing not only my mind but also my body, then I suppose I cannot wonder why it had such a profound psychological effect of my life.

I forgave my perps when I was still a kid, and hurting.

Why did I do it? Because I was carrying too much of their guilt that I could not hold so much anger within me, and it got to a point where I had to forgive. It is not easy, but it is easier than feeling anger and massive rage over what happened.

None of us can change the past, but we can make it easier in the present.

Triggers!!

I was violently abused, and feared for my life, and sometimes it flashes back to me, like a slow motion movie.

I remember also how easy he could have been caught at the scene, and it is all these things that are not my guilt, but that of him.

He terrorised every corner of my psyche, but I got through it, even though it is tough.

I was brought up to forgive people for bad things they do to me, and sometimes it shows that you can be so much stronger in doing so.

This does not mean it is right, I would love to live in a World that my childhood taught me, that of wonder and caring for all, but society can never be the way God wants it to happen.

I am glad that the mods delete that post, but I cannot read it, because it was not good for me to read it.

Some other posters here are also causing damage here, not many but maybe just a couple, and their so called positive thoughts have also been deleted by the mods.

Hey, the mods do a good job under really excruciating conditions, and I never envy them, but maybe they find recognition for their efforts sometime.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#4721 - 06/19/05 09:43 PM Re: Please don't go.
Maynard Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 49
I, like Jasper, have had a change of opinion to my original post on this subject. Like I said above I am new here and I am still very confused about my own SA. The main thing I fealt is that I wanted Ranger to get the help he needs, and still do, but have come to the conclusion that this is not the place. I believe sinking has giving more then enough resources for Ranger to find help. The thought of losing a victim over a perp is just flat out not right, even if he was SA. This site is for us and not them, and I believe that is the bottom line. This posts is taking too much time and energy away from people that need help.

_________________________
"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning." Mahatma Gandhi

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#4722 - 06/19/05 10:50 PM Re: Please don't go.
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
I, too, have been communicating about MS safety issues with the mods, admins & BOD, plus an ordinary MS member who has become a buddy. He pointed out to me that the MS management is spread across 3,000 miles and 4 time zones, and I remember how tough that was to deal with when I worked for a company with a similar geographical spread.

So, I think the management is diligently working to do the right thing, which takes *time* given their circumstances.

Also, IMO, no offender has any place here.

Over many years, women friends who were active in feminist politics have taught me the *need* for them to have separate, secure, Women-Only spaces, free off men. The 19 years of my sobriety have made me profoundly grateful for AA-Only spaces, free of non-alcoholics, and I would not be alive today if it were not for Gay-Only spaces, free of straights. Consequently, I think MS needs to be free of perpetrators.

(Edited to correst a spelling error)


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#4723 - 06/20/05 12:23 AM Re: Please don't go.
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by delta.tetra:


8. What happened to the man this thread was adressed to? Nobody asks
about that. Did he stay or did he go?
The person I know of remains away from here for now.

I originally posted this in a thread on the member side last week. As it is my own words, I am reposting it here. I am trying to maintain a personal balance for myself. Inside, 100%, I feel that no offender belongs here. But, I am trying to not generalize all perpetrators simply because of what I know of my own. Some truly do have remorse, possibly. That is why my words perhaps seem some 'middle of road'.

_________________________________________________

Part of response may trigger.


I have been reading, but 'staying out' of things, as I just have major issues my own right now, which I choose to not bring here, for reasons my own. But, there is few things I want to say, respectful as possible.

First, I do not think there is anyone who do not appreaciate the moderators here, the hard work they do, the fact it is only voluntary, and that they are all survivors also with their own issues and triggers. Roland, Dave, any other moderators, honestly I think no one is attacking you and your hard work. If they do, I am sure it is out of fear, anger and frustration. That do not make personal attacks right.

Personal? I think the whole issue could have been avoided a month and half ago when this person first come here and post that they have offended against someone also. It was very honest and courageous to do that. But it seems it would have been much easier, then, to say 'We are sorry you are a survivor. But also, you are a perpetrator, and as such, we can not have you here. Our sympathies, here are some resources, good luck'. But, because he is a seemingly remorseful person, he is allowed here to post of free will, and seemingly until yesterday, was quite appropriate-seeming in those posts. We as a site have set a precedent by allowing him to remain. Now that members are upset with his presence (Yes, some were previously, I am aware), it is 'sticky' to take care of.

Yes, he is a survivor. But he is also a perpetrator. I am willing to say that at least 90% of the other survivors here, no matter how insecure or how much hatred they have had for themself, no matter how out of control and crazy they feel, they have NOT perpetrated upon another person. That is a big difference between 'him' and most of the rest of 'us'. And no matter how decent, honorable, and well-intentioned this person may seem, he still is also one of 'them', one of the people responsible for the other 2500 people to be at this site. It is difficult to feel that he is not here 'as' a perpetrator as well as survivor. That he is not 'getting' something from people being hurt and triggered. And we'll never know that is not the case.

I realy have not had problem with his presence here. Better the perp you know then the perp you don't, I guess is how I feel.

However, I do worry that to allow him to remain here, it can set a difficult precedent. Because, it is a fact that majority of 'perps' have been abused themself. That would qualify them to be here, as survivors. However, we know that not all perpetrators have remorse. Not all perpetrators turn themselves in, and willingly confess to their crimes. Who is to say the next perpetrator/survivor here does not have such noble intentions as to just heal from what is done to them? Now no, someone who is here to try to 'hook up' with some vulnerable member is not likely to admit openly to having been a perp. But it is similar thought process. Allow one survivor/offender here, allow them all, then ban them one by one as they misbehave here.

I am not going to threaten to leave or leave, although I have great respect for the members that I know of who have made that choice. It can feel unsafe here right now. It can feel that the 'perp' is protected while the legitimate survivors and victims are not. And this is a difficult week to be feeling that.

I trust that the right decision will be made, and I am sure it is a difficult one. My sympathy and support to the administrators and moderating staff, and I am grateful the decision is not mine.

I wish everyone well.

Leosha
_________________________________________________

By the way, someone who leave here, I am hoping temporarily, due in part to this situation, is someone extremely close to me, who I care very much about. Probably the person here I am closest to, not to diminish anyone else here. So I DO feel the significance of this specific issue, trust me. I just am attempting to keep my words and thoughts civil, because I have been quite blunt, to the point of rudeness, at times, and am attempting to not be like that. I am sorry if how I speak does not seem supportive to the majority here. But truly I am.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#4724 - 06/22/05 02:12 AM Re: Please don't go.
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5773
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Just a quick note to let you know that I've drafted a response to this controversy and I'm waiting for feedback from the mods and administrators before posting it.

This is a difficult position and although some feel it may be a "no brainer", it is a bit more complicated than merely making a policy of "no perps".

Although I will probably catch some flak with the response, please bear in mind that this has been a difficult discussion and we want our members to feel safe here.

Should be posted Wed some time.

Ken


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#4725 - 06/22/05 03:02 AM Re: Please don't go.
Soccer Kid Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Missouri


_________________________
~Zach~
Deviant of Many Talents

"Reality is just an illusion."

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#4726 - 06/22/05 06:00 AM Re: Please don't go.
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Quote:
Soccer Kid wrote ~ I haven't had the time to read all of the posts in this discussion ...
If you had, you'd know that member "Sinking" posted a detailed list of eleven resources for perpetrators, so it's not like we're taking away Ranger's *only* support. Since we survivors have spent our entire lives in the shadow of our perpetrators, it is essential we have ONE place we can call our own.


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#4727 - 06/22/05 06:41 AM Re: Please don't go.
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 796
Loc: North Texas
Hi all,
1. First let me say that Rangers last message was all about saying good bye to the people on this board. So all the debate is wasted!

2. The only reason Ranger went into detail was because someone asked him to. The only reason he made it public was he thought more than one person wanted to know what he did to the boy. He was right, I at least wanted to know what he did to the boy.

As far as I can see Ranger only made two mistakes. One he went into more detail than we wanted to know. Not only did he tell us what happened, but he gave us what distorted ideas of love he had at the time. I think this is what TRIGGERED everyone, who had been in a similar SA experience.
The other thing he did that was wrong was where he posted it. He posted it in the Male Survivors forum. It was then moved to the unmoderated forum, which in my opinion was still the wrong place for it. In my opinion the only correct place for the post is attached to his survivor story in the Survivors stories forum.

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#4728 - 06/22/05 03:37 PM Re: Please don't go.
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Maybe MS.org should post a link for perp resources on the home page. Obviously they need help too, if for no other reason than to protect their potential victims from themselves. A list of links to organizations such as Stop It Now might help steer perps away from this site and would offer them resources they need as well.

I must say I am uncomfortable with the decision that has been made. When I was in the early stages of recovery and my PTSD was acting up all the time, perps were everywhere, in my head, following me in my car, even hiding behind the shower curtains in my home. I felt safe then that there were no perps in my therapist's office (although I was cautious of my therapist at first) and there were no perps here. Apparently that will not be the case anymore. And though I will still visit this site for the time being, I will be much more guarded with what I say and to whom I say it. Up come the defenses.....


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#4729 - 06/22/05 08:08 PM Re: Please don't go.
PiePro Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Montreal
Please I need a safe place.

Zero tolerance for perps, please.


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#4730 - 06/23/05 12:20 AM Re: Please don't go.
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I'd just like to make a couple of points.

Ranger isn't the first self confessed offender that has used MS openly, and I know of one offender / survivor that used MS without disclosing his offending. ( He's long gone )

It's been a very difficult issue to resolve,and the Admin and Mod's have spent a great deal of time and effort on this.
The main reason for taking so much time is that the discussion has gone on for a long time on the forums, and we've received so many PM's, that we needed to take everyones views into account.

It is a very emotive subject, and one that has been discussed with a great deal of sympathy and understanding from both sides.

Thank you all for the support that you've shown the Moderators during this difficult time.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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