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#4710 - 06/18/05 09:42 PM Re: Please don't go.
iansMe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 6
Loc: NC
Ranger,

I agree with "Sinking" that this is NOT the best site for you. In "Sinking's" post he made an excellent comment that I think is worth repeating: What happens if the survior of your abuse shows up here for support? Please be sensitive and respectful to his needs. Therefore, I think you should leave.

Can anyone tell me what the moderators have concluded about this issue? Thanks


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#4711 - 06/19/05 01:22 AM Re: Please don't go.
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by Malidin41:
In fear of becoming like all that have posted hear I will only say ONE THING I AM EXTREAMLY DISAPOINTED IN THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE AND I AM BLOWN AWAY THAT ANYONE OF US COULD TREAT ANOTHER IN THIS WAY CONSIDERING WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH.
'All that have posted here'??? Have you not read the responses? Can you truly not see that many of them show support, compassion and SOME attempt to understand how another, fellow abuse survivor has gone on to abuse someone else, but perhaps still has maintained his humanity?

There is SO much I want to say right now. But will reign myself in somewhat. I will attempt to maintain some maturity and civility.

However. Did you read 'the' post that had most members here so trigered, where this man (after having been asked, yes) posted graphic details of how he sexually abused another person? It is not longer here, it has been removed. Unless you read THAT post, I would suggest that you are quite hasty with your negative judgement of the members here and of this site in general. And if you had read that post, and are this negatively judging of the members who were legitamitely upset and triggered by it, well, what is it of the pot and the kettle?

If you did not interpret it as such, my response to Ranger was an attempt at support and understanding. I will say also, here, that I reached out to him in PM and offered to remain as someone he can contact if he does leave here, even though we had not spoken before. Do not judge ME by what you THINK you read. I think Ranger could be quite a good resource here, however, in limited quantities. It would seem some people think he could be some 'Perpetrator Yoda', who has all the answers to the 'Why' questions so many of us ask. Perhaps he can answer those questions. About HIMSELF. He is not my abuser. He is nothing like my abuser, from what I have read. Only MY abuser can tell me 'WHY'. Only Scot's can tell him. Only Jasper's, and Sophiesdad's and Ste's can tell them. Ranger does NOT have the answers for me, for you, or anyone else here that HE DID NOT ABUSE. He can explain his thinking, his mindset, etc. That will give us more insight into HIM. Not into abusers and perpetrators in general.

Malidin, I would like to know. Would you invite YOUR abuser here, to share in your healing process, to promote better understanding? The person or persons responsible for you feeling the need to find this kind of site? Would you want them reading about your triggers, your flashbacks, your nightmares, your addictions, negative coping, cutting, drinking, suicidal thoughts, poor social skills, fears, loss of job opportunities, loss of relationships, psychiatric diagnoses and long term physical and mental affects of what was done to you? Would you like him, or them, to know all that about you, and know that THEY caused it? Do you truly think your abuser or abusers would feel sorry they did that? Or would they get some kind of little 'kick' out of knowing their power far outlasted the actual acts of abuse? Honestly, I would like to know, because if so, if that would not bother you, you are a FAR better and bigger man then me. Perhaps your abuse was different from mine. No two people are the same. But I would totaly freak if I suspected my abuser was here, reading what I say about it's affects on me, because he would truly enjoy the shit out of it. I know him.

Somethings I think are sad about this situation. A few decent, GOOD, genuine giving and loving people have left here because of this. Including one who personally reached out to this man in attempts to understand better and NOT be negatively judging. Many others are staying on the member forums, where they feel it is safer. Meanwhile, new people and hurting people here, on the public side, their thoughts and words are being ignored, when they most are needing responses. I have not been here much, and usually when I do come here, I start with reading the member side. Perhaps I need to reverse that right now. Because greater then 90% of persons here have not offended upon another, and are here only in one 'way', without the other negative possibility. THEY deserve help. No one here is 'more' deserving of being here then others, who is a survivor. But the newer and more vulnerable here, they deserve for this site to be safe, not a place of animosity and uproar.

I wish you well. But I question my ability to ever be so 'healed' as you appear.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#4712 - 06/19/05 01:42 AM Re: Please don't go.
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I have read posts where victims/survivors have forgiven their abuser/s.

I now read posts where the abuser is 'sorry' for the victim.

Only the victim/survivor can give forgiveness - it is no one else's right to demand that forgiveness.

It is good to read that an abuser realises that what they did was wrong (assuming that they are genuine).

Each of us can only really decide whether or not we can forgive our abuser/s.

My abuser is still in denial - I have tortured myself since Sept 1969 because of his actions. I complained about him to the police 17th Oct last year (2004) - he has denied everything. There is a Crown Court case pending - I don't think that I can ever forgive him now, because he is intent on extending the torture that he has imposed on me. He is not a man - he will not admit what he did...he can rot!!!

Ranger, if you are genuine, then I hope that you never abuse again. I don't know that I have an opinion on whether you post here or not, all I can think of is:

If I read your posts when I first came here, would I have stayed? Would I have recovered, or would I still be out in the wilderness seeking something that I would never find?

My honest answer is that you should maybe read what is written here, but do not seek forgiveness from those that are trying to find answers.

Best wishes again to everyone...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#4713 - 06/19/05 07:15 AM Re: Please don't go.
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
The Shark and the Turtle

The Shark once asked the turtle for a ride across the sea

The Turtle said, "I'm sorry, I can't, it would be the end of me. You are, as you know, a shark," he said, "My Father told me of your kind. He said to stay away from your type, and his words still come to mind."

The Shark replied, "I'm different, I'm your brother, and a friend. Besides, you're keen with wisdom, not like the rest of them. Take me across the sea," he said, "and you'll see how fine I am. Before I'd hurt you, I'd cut out my heart and bury it in the sand."

The Turtle said, "okay, my friend, my brother, lets begin." But no sooner had they left the shore when the demon prepared to sin. As they advanced on through the waves the Turtle was struck by pain. The shark then took another bite, and said, "My, what a shame."

Before the turtle died he heard the shark's voice harsh and shrill.
"Why, never trust a shark, for it's his nature, and he'll kill."
Thomas Flynn - 1959 San Quentin


.....Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#4714 - 06/19/05 03:40 PM Re: Please don't go.
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
The ratio of supportive responses to the perpetrator versus the supportive responses to the innocent victims who never used their past to abuse others is about 7 to 3. That figure does not account for my own post, which, by the way, was amazingly compassionate by offering alternative resources for ranger.

Watching this unfold over the last several days, I have been astounded by the support given to an admitted abuser. So many are concerned with his feelings, with treating him with compassion and understanding. Few have shown the same concern for what I or others are feeling, we who have not abused children, we who have been abused by others and, most certainly, have lived a lifetime of agony because of what those abusers did to us.

I agree that ranger has 'seemed' genuine. He seemed genuine when he was offering solace to the father of a boy who was recently sexually abused in the Family and Friends forum. He can't imagine what the father is facing since he himself is not a father. But he knows of another father/son who faced something similar and, guess what? The father and son are now closer than ever before because they faced it together. The sexual abuse actually had a positive impact in the end. This is the reasoning of an offender. And it literally makes me feel sick to my stomach. And most of you want him to stay. And the silence of the moderators is deafening!!!

To his credit, ranger has kept his word and not posted since he announced that he would no longer post. If you are reading this ranger, please continue to keep your word.

And to those who have not spoken yet on this issue, please do. I think it is tremendously important that survivors feel safe here. If support continues to go the way of the perps, I will have to leave, although that seems to be of little importance to many of you. If, as I think it should be, perps are barred from this formerly safe haven, I will continue to come here to learn, to ask for support and to provide whatever help I can to those who need it. Please keep this site safe for me and for the victims/survivors of all the perps out there...keep them out there!!!


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#4715 - 06/19/05 06:40 PM Re: Please don't go.
delta.tetra Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Netherlands
OK as Sinking asked for input from people who remained silent so far.
'Rangerj9' should stay away from this forum - forever.

1. I hope the Administrators delete the abuser user account, and ban his
IP address to stop him even lurking here, if that is possible.

2. Saying a perp needs this site is rubbish. Doesn't media etc say, "90
percent of perpetrators of abuse were themselves once victims of CSA"?
If that is true then any support system for perpetrators is
automatically by definition a support system for people who were once
abused. Therefore there can be no need whatsoever for a CSA perpetrator
abuser to come to a non-abusing-survivor site for CSA support.

3. I'm shocked by the list of thirteen 'support for perverts and
abusers' organisations Sinking posted above. THERE AREN'T THAT MANY
PLACES FOR SURVIVORS!

4. Perps out! I hope that site policy here would be that any known, self-
confessed CSA perpetrators get thrown out of this website, and banned
forever by the admin.

5. I wrote most the same things yesterday and the day before but didn't
post, thinking it was better to stay out.

6. It is complete rubbish to suggest that I might learn anything about
the abuse done to me, by there being some random self-confessed abuser
posting poison here.

7. If child abusers are going to be allowed to stay or even welcomed,
for any reason, I'll certainly just forget this place.

8. What happened to the man this thread was adressed to? Nobody asks
about that. Did he stay or did he go?


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#4716 - 06/19/05 07:09 PM Re: Please don't go.
sabooka Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 209
Loc: I would like to know also
I have been torn about this for awhile and to be honest I do not feel as safe here as I did when I first arrived.

After reading most of what was written about this subject I have come to the following conclusions.

1.This site is meant to be a safe place for CSA survivers to heal. Not all CSA survivers feel comfortable with perps here.

2. We are all responsible for our own actions as adults. Our lives as adults reflect both our past (childhood) and our choices in life (adulthood). Considering that the choice to abuse someone happens in adulthood, therefore is a choice, would put the perp aspect of the person ahead of the CSA aspect of the person.

***this is not dimminishing the responsiblity of those who abused others as children but the issues are different. ***

3. There exist a larger number of resources for perps that do not exist for male CSA.

With those things said I think it is also important that when someone is trying to heal them selves they are helped.

After seeing all the resources for perps I think that it would be better for all conserned if this site was perp free.

I realize that this must be very difficult for the Mod's and the Board because on the one hand there is the safety of the members and on the other hand there is being accesible to all who need help.


This disscusion is taking away from the real reason for us being here and that is to help each other heal. I hope that in the outcome of this there are some clearer rules about membership and safety.

That is what I think.
Jonathan

_________________________
My happiness is not dependant on other people's misery.

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#4717 - 06/19/05 07:49 PM Re: Please don't go.
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
I think my thoughts on this subject are pretty clear over on the Members side, but will post here for those who are not members.

To suggest that survivors are insensitive to the needs of a perp who himself was abused is the height of arrogance, in my opinion. I have no sympathy WHATSOEVER for any perp, abused or not. If it sounds like there's a big chip on my shoulder, then it's bacause there is. And for his supporters to talk condescendingly to victims here who feel this way is hypocritical (since they are now the ones intolerant of our views). Remember who the victims are here - we didn't "ask for it", as much as the perps would like you to believe that.

On Wednesday, I had resolved to leave MS in the turmoil of this. Upon reflection, I am resolved to stay until the moderators announce the changes they plan to implement. I refuse to let a perp further control me through my healing.

I have no desire whatsoever to learn about what made Ranger like he is. It is totally irrelevant to the abuse that occurred to me. I have made suggestions to the mods as to how perps can exist here, but be segregated from the rest of the victim population through separate forums. If we must exist together here at MS, then my hope is that there will be places of safety away from perps altogether where victims can heal in safety.

_________________________
Eddie

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#4719 - 06/19/05 09:13 PM Re: Please don't go.
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
In response to item #8 on delta-tetra's list, I believe I am the first to have said I would leave if ranger did not. I had been corresponding with one of the mods who removed my original post in which I expressed my outrage at the presence of an abuser on this site. That was last Tuesday, I have been repeatedly told that the mods and the board are working very hard on this. Tomorrow marks a week since they have been working on it but they have yet to make any public announcements about where they stand.

I have decided to stay until this is brought to a conclusion. I have decided to stand up and face the abuser, something none of us were able to do when we were being abused. I can now and intend to fight to make this place as safe as it was when I first came here a year and a half ago. But, if the board and the mods decide that it is okay for perps to be here, to post their 'insights' and to, literally, put survivors at risk, I will have no choice but to leave.

That said, what a relief to finally see the voices of support that are speaking up. My wife and I have been confounded all week long by the support given to the abuser vs. the lack of support for my position. Thank you guys for speaking up. Together we can and must save this site. It is for us, not for perps. And, like delta said above, the statistics say 80% of abusers were themselves abused. Where then would MS.org draw the line. I say it should be drawn at zero. Zero perps should be allowed in here and no more than that. Keep them out!!


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#4720 - 06/19/05 09:42 PM Re: Please don't go.
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
After 41 years of living in silence, of CSA, and sometimes torturing not only my mind but also my body, then I suppose I cannot wonder why it had such a profound psychological effect of my life.

I forgave my perps when I was still a kid, and hurting.

Why did I do it? Because I was carrying too much of their guilt that I could not hold so much anger within me, and it got to a point where I had to forgive. It is not easy, but it is easier than feeling anger and massive rage over what happened.

None of us can change the past, but we can make it easier in the present.

Triggers!!

I was violently abused, and feared for my life, and sometimes it flashes back to me, like a slow motion movie.

I remember also how easy he could have been caught at the scene, and it is all these things that are not my guilt, but that of him.

He terrorised every corner of my psyche, but I got through it, even though it is tough.

I was brought up to forgive people for bad things they do to me, and sometimes it shows that you can be so much stronger in doing so.

This does not mean it is right, I would love to live in a World that my childhood taught me, that of wonder and caring for all, but society can never be the way God wants it to happen.

I am glad that the mods delete that post, but I cannot read it, because it was not good for me to read it.

Some other posters here are also causing damage here, not many but maybe just a couple, and their so called positive thoughts have also been deleted by the mods.

Hey, the mods do a good job under really excruciating conditions, and I never envy them, but maybe they find recognition for their efforts sometime.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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