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#469484 - 08/29/14 09:11 AM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 93
Kevin I hope your children do get help now. I can tell them the longer they wait the more painful it will be for them. They will miss out on so much in life. My doctor told me this problem in families is more common and is kept silent.

The doctor and I talked to my counselor about this. I learned in marriage when a wife or husband puts their parents and sisters and brother before the wife or husband and children it will surely break up a marriage. Also was told the children feel like they are lesser than the grandparents and aunts and uncles to the mother or father. This starts so much trouble. The parent who put their parents, sisters and brothers before their wife or husband and children feels left out of the children's life as well as the spouses. Somehow, I am not sure why, that parent uses the children, sort of brainwashes them to love them and dislike and hurt the other parent.

The child does not realize this is happening and I do not think the parent realizes how mean this is. The doctor says it gets worse over time and the children become screwed up. My family had the alcoholism, my sister could not keep friends for a long time because she was depressed and allowed to sleep all day, my brother never had a friend and did not even go to social activities, I struggled never trusting anyone. We all had one thing in common, to hurt Dad so Mama would smile and tell us she loves us and would be there for us. She always told us the bad things about Dad and somehow convinced us to hate him. Mama told us things only a husband and wife should know. Dad was always the bad guy. The doctor said Mama never put Dad first in her life. She was too controlled by her parents and sisters and brothers. The doctor said Mama did not have a healthy relationship with her sisters, brothers and mother. It was all talk of love, and there was love and their own need to be loved and to control each other. The doctor said this happens in many families.

My sister was the smart one, she got help and tried to tell me what Mama had done. I was stupid even as an adult to believe no damage came from Mama treating Dad the way he was treated. The abuse and the family crap really screwed me up. I now know Mama never treated Dad right and her mother, sisters and brothers were more important to her than Dad and even us. We were the pawns in Mama's family game of chess.

Please find a way for your children to get help. The anger and violence, and yes it happened in our house and Mama saw no wrong because it was directed at Dad. Your lawyer's question had implosion begun is a good one. I would say it has and they do not even know it. I did not know it and did not listen to my sister and wife who knew we were bitter and destructive for no good reason other than having been brainwashed by Mama.

I can tell you my wife saved me from being far worse off. She always put me first and then our children. She balanced what she needed to do for her mother and father with her sisters and brother. All shared so not to overburden one child. Now her parents did it right and Mama and her family did not know this way. I hope you find a way to get your children help. Can you talk to their mother and explain how the children need help. I know their mother may not want to admit what happened but if she loves the children she will do the right thing. Mama said the other day, she wished she knew what she knew today becaus she would never have done or allowed the things that hurt Dad and us so badly. She even said she would have told her mother and sisters and brothers that Dad and us were her priority and she would not have left us like she did. She cried and asked how could I leave my children when their father was still recovering from a heart attack. She said she had to be the worse wife ever to do this to her husband. She even admitted she did not have to go but everyone expected her to be there.

I guess we have plenty of company in this world of screwed up families because children are used against the other parent. It makes me sad. I am glad I did not marry a woman like my mother and I thought I would have because Mama put herself on the petestal of the perfect mother. I could scream. Do not let your children suffer like we have.

I only can hope you get through to the children and maybe their mother that they all need help. Let me know how things turn out.

P

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#469495 - 08/29/14 06:34 PM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1745
P

Thank you and I am glad to see you are not using sorryson. A good sign.

I hold little hope that I can persuade the children to get help. They are so ingrained with misinformation and I highly doubt they can face the truth. I had to make a long list of what happened in the home as part of my therapy--and when I look at the list I am in disbelief. But it seems I am the only one who finds the acts to be abnormal. They believe these behaviors would not impact someone struggling with the past, CSA, PTSD, dissociation and everything else that comes with the abuse. To others, they see individuals crying for help, those doing the acts and those laughing and encouraging such acts. I accept what may have happened during the dissociation but I am still troubled about the lost time and lack of memories that come with the lost time. I know what the triggers were that put me into these states. I know this impacts the children. I believe their denial is as strong as my denial was about the abuse. I know what denial and keeping the secret did to me and I see what their denial is doing to them.

I do not know how to get the point across and we do not speak. For me, the doctors and T thought it would be best to distance my self from and not attempt to reconnect. I was told rejection is part of their control and their attacks was preventing me from healing. I am happy not being subject to attacks and to be honest, I have been able to heal being away from the environment that triggered and reminded me of the abuse in the cellar. You once said your sister told your father knew he needed to distance himself from his children. I can only guess it was the only way he could heal and not be subject to the verbal abuse that reminded him of his own childhood sexual abuse.

Victims need to find the right environment to heal, one that offers support and compassion but with boundaries.

If you father had tried to encouraged you to seek help, how would you have reacted? What could he have done or said that would have let you see what was happening in your house was not "normal" and help was needed. You sat on the other side, could you just give me some direction. I do not want the children to continue without the opportunity to live life to the fullest. This weekend my friend is back for a few days, so I will have a sounding board to bounce some ideas. She has a good sense about people.

Thank you and I appreciate your support.

Kevin

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#469507 - 08/30/14 09:31 AM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: KMCINVA]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 93
Kevin I am not sure how to answer your questions. I thought about what would have made me go get help. I noticed you did not mention their mother. I thought about that too. Mama could not have been a source of help because she fed off what her sisters and brothers were saying about Dad. They also told us to hate Dad that he was no good and he hurt Mama. Now maybe the were the pot calling the kettle black. They were the ones who hurt Mama, Dad and us. I only realized this when Dad died and my brother was nearly lost. None asked why Dad was doing what he was supposedly doing. Now we know because of the hospital reports, doctors, professionals and from my sister talking with Dad. So Mama was out because those siblings would have done whatever they could to maake others look bad, when they were the bad ones.

I do not know who could have made me see what was right. I was stuck on keeping Mama happy I could not see the truth or did not know the truth then. I asked my sister your questions. She said it took her years of wasting her life. She spent 8 years in Chicago trying to find out why Mama was so happy there. She said these 8 years destroyed her by trying to recapture why Mama left us for Chicago. She said if someone had shaken us maybe she would have woken up. I asked her who could have done this. She said Dadís family tried to talk to us but Mama would always put them down. Maybe a teacher, a doctor, or someone outside. We both then concluded it would have taken Mama to tell us the truth why she left and made us feel we needed to hate Dad. I guess there is no one else that we can suggest. I know Mama would have denied. I do not know what to tell you. My doctor and counselor have said when a child is taught to alienate a parent it is hard to undo the damage. They both said sometimes the damage is so great the child never recovers and their life is full of bitterness and hate. Mama had that bitterness and hate in her heart. She was brought up in a family that found the bad in everything and everyone.

I think their mother is the answer. Does she want them to be like my family and other families I met in a support group, does she want her children not to find the life they should have, does she want the children to be isolated and without long term friends, does she need to be the center of their universe. If the answer is yes, then the children will never be happy and fulfilled. Find someone who can get through to her. I think there was one brother, the college professor, who could have helped but he would have had to go against all of them. He was the blacksheep of the family. He found the good in everyone and would not laugh at others troubles. He does not see himself as perfect like therest of them. Does their mother have someone like this in her life?

I will keep thinking because I look at my brother and see how he was almost gone because of what your children and you had to live. Please find a way to save them. There are support groups out there to help, there are doctors and counselors. It sounds like they do not have friends which I now know is a sign of troubled children. Friends can be great support but you have to have them. My brother and sister did not have friends. My sister had friends for short periods than her laziness and need to constantly sleep drove them away. Today she has a wonderful circle of real friends because she faced what had happened to her. I had a few friends but none like she has today. You may have to talk to their mother and go through the list of what was done to you, talk about the childrens lives, their lack of friends, lack of activities and need to find help. I cry when I think of my lost childhood and much of my adult life all because of selfish adults. I do not want to see others cry like I have.


Edited by sorryson (08/30/14 09:53 AM)

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#469837 - 09/08/14 10:11 PM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 93
My visit to the home of my Dadís wife was truly more that I had expected. I only had met her twice in my life, first at my sisterís wedding renewal on her 15th anniversary and at my Dadís funeral. I was standoffish to her on both occasions. She invited my sister and her husband and my wife and I. My sister and her husband knew her well. We arrived and I was taken back on how she made us feel so at ease. She had a great wit, beautiful smile and a soothing voice. We talked and talked.

She asked how my mother was doing as well as my brother. You could see she had concern for them and their wellbeing. I asked her did Dad ever tell her why he totally turned from us. She said he loved each and every one of you. He was sad when he was not included in events but knew it was for the best. She said he wanted to help and once many years ago he called your mother. He said he wanted to help with your brotherís training costs. He said he would only do this if my brother went for help about the relationship and his personal issues. Your mother told your father he was the only one with issues. My sister and I looked at each other and laughed. I said look at us today, we are a mess. My Dadís wife said do not be harsh on yourself or judge your mother. Dadís wife told us her story. She came from a very similar family. Her mother was kind and good but for some reason she could not let her parents or siblings go. She told us she remembers as a child her mother always spoke of her sisters and brothers with such reverence, espousing how wonderful they were as people. She never spoke of her father this way and never allowed him to complete a story about his life and travels. He had lead an interesting life and she only learned of it after he passed. She told us her motherís sisters and brothers were the apples of her eye, they did no wrong. They were allowed to correct us, make plans for us even if they conflicting with my fatherís plans and would hijack every event with outlandish gifts or a pre party celebration even though my parents had planned a wonderful event for our birthday, communion, graduation or other personal event. My father would be upset and my mother would say, what can I do? My sister and I once again looked at each other and nodded our heads. She also told us her mother was away for long periods of time to take care of her mother. She told us her father had a blood disease and was limited in his activities. He always made sure we had clean clothes and dinner on the table. Her mother like your mother did not need to spend as much time there as she did. It was the same story. Dadís wife also told us she was the oldest and some of the burden fell on her.

Dadís wife told us she went off to college and was sad because the friends she made were the first true ones she had in life. She told us she had never been to sleep overs, did not have a best friend that she confided in as a child. She said her sisters also did not have real friends as a child. They had friends but not close friends. She told us she studied psychology in college and then became a psychologist. She said she learned parents need to understand boundaries. She said her mother did not nor did her sisters and brothers understand boundaries. She had to put boundaries in place when she married her first husband (who had died before she married Dad). She told her sisters and brothers they were not to butt into how they were raising their children, they were not to schedule events or activities for the children unless both she and her husband approved and to remember her husband and her were the childrenís parents. She said her family was at first mad and finally accepted it. She said her children knew she and her husband stood together and neitherís family was going to come between them. She said they had their problems but worked it out together as a husband and wife should.

It became difficult when her mother became ill. She lived in Philadelphia. She had two sisters and a brother and she told them she would help as needed. They lived very close to the mother and father. She went the first time and ended up spending almost 5 weeks there. She said she realized her sisters and brothers went to work, went to an anniversary party, out to dinner, to their childrenís plays, basketball and tennis. She said enough of this. She put her foot down and told them she would come for one week every five or six weeks. She said they were angry and complained they could not do it all. She told us she let them have it. She went through everything they did while she stayed with mother and was away from her husband and children. She said things were frosty. Shortly before her mother passed the mother told her, I admire the courage you had to stand up to your sisters and brother, because I could not have done it. She told me she was sorry about leaving me to take care of her mother and leaving her to help care for your Dad, sisters and brothers. She told me it was wrong of her and I made a better marriage for my husband than she had because she let her family tell her what to do. One of my sisters heard this and said to me, you fooled mother. I let her have it and told her I have been here every four or five weeks for 7 to 10 days. You slept with your husband, you went home to your children, went to their school events, basketball games. I did not see my children nor did I sleep with my husband while I was here. I babysat your children. Do not tell me I did not do anything or sacrifice. I told her my husband and children sacrificed, did yours? She shut up and began to cry. She said she was jealous that I was able to put my husband first and still help others. She said she let her husband down. My sister and I told her I wish our Mama had done what you had done.

She said from her education and practice she knew how important family boundaries are in sustaining a healthy relationship. My sister and I have learned we were a family without boundaries. Mama and more correctly her family controlled our lives. They took Mama from us and Dad was always the scapegoat. We told Dadís wife this is how we felt. She said do not judge her, she was only reacting to what she knew, how she grew up. She told us children learn the rules quite young and some are fortunate to escape and learn the rules were founded on love but can deprive the child of an ability to grow and flourish. She said no parent or sibling should ever expect a child to compromise their time, love and presence with their husband and own children. If they do, the boundaries are once again broken. She told us our mother loved us and love for her was defined by what she learned as a child and how her siblings treated her.

She said she was sorry for digressing but this relates to why your father then choose not to give financial support. He learned from counseling and his psychiatrist he needed to set boundaries. He had tried to reconnect with you but there was never a response. He learned ignoring someone is a method of control and you were trying to control him. He knew he could not be under the control of those that hurt him. I am sorry but that is how he felt. My sister and I both said we understood and realize what we did to him was abusive. She said the professionals working with your father also told him that he must not become an enabler to future harm. If your father had given money, it would have been a short term fix because the dysfunction that existed in the family and the relationships was not addressed. Once the ďfixĒ wore off there would have been more abuse and expectation for more ďfixesĒ. He knew he needed to establish boundaries. My sister and I both told her we have heard the same in our sessions and totally understand. I said I asked the question because I was afraid he stopped giving because he did not love us. She said he loved you dearly.

She stood up and went into the other room. She came back with three books. She handed on to me and one to my sister. I opened it and saw pictures and newspaper clippings. The clippings were of activities, awards and promotions for both me, my wife and children. The pictures I did not expect to see. The first was from my wedding. She told us my Dad and her dressed up as being part of the church cleaning crew. Your Dad had on a gray wig and moustache. He staid to the side. He snapped that picture when you said I do. Then the picture of our first dance. She told us he gave the chef in the kitchen a few dollars and he let us stand at the door. When you started your first dance he quickly snapped a picture. I asked my wife, did she know he had been there. She said he never told her. Dadís wife said he hoped one day to be able to tell you directly and that is why he kept it a secret. She said to my sister he did the same at your wedding. But my sister already knew. Dadís wife said I can tell you he was sad he did not walk you down the aisle. He was over the moon when you asked him to walk you down the aisle on your 15th renewal. There were pictures of the childrenís baseball game, dance recitals graduations and other activities. My wife said she knew he had been to some of these activities but not all. Dadís wife told us he became a master of disguise. He would sneak in and she would tag along to watch from afar so as not to be noticed. My sister was more fortunate, Dad was able to be out in the open with her family. I was so moved by this book, I could feel his love and believed he did love me despite what I did. The third book was for my brother. She said it may not be the right time to give it to him. She gave it to my sister and told her she would know when the time was right.

She told us, remember this was your fatherís home and you are welcome anytime. She asked if I wanted to walk around the house. I said yes, I looked at pictures, there were some of us that were in the books. His wife said he was said he did not have any pictures of you when you were young. I asked why and she said I gather they were not available to him. He had asked but was told he was not part of the childrenís lives. He did not want to start a fight. He was hurt.

Looking at the pictures of him with his wifeís children and grandchildren made me realize what I missed out on. Ironically I felt my Dadís love and presence for the first time in decades. I guess he never really left me even though I left him. Knowing his love was always there, removes a burden from my heart. My doctor and counselor said I am now ready to move beyond Dad and face the sexual abuse. I guess Dadís passing was his way to help me live and move ahead. Thank you Dad and I am sorry I was not there for you and thank you for being here for me. Dad I promise I will get over the abuse like you did and build a life you did after us.

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#469842 - 09/08/14 11:40 PM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
tbkkfile Offline


Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 266
Loc: Surrey, United Kingdom
Dear sorryson your post has made me cry, it has reminded me of my own Mother and Father in some of the things that you have written and some of things that they did.

Wishing you peace, happiness and healing

David
_________________________
To look up and not down,
To look forward and not back,
To look out and not in

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#469853 - 09/09/14 06:48 AM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1745
Wonderful post. I am glad you found your father's love. Your father's wife sounds as though she is a wise and kind person and I hope she brought your father happiness. She seems to understand the importance of spouse and children first. Your father was a true father, did everything in silence expecting little in return, even when he was outside your life. Cherish the book and remember he was part of your life and the love he had for you.

Now you can focus on your next step in healing, the CSA. Good luck and heal well. I also hope your brother finds peace along with your mother.

Kevin

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#469898 - 09/10/14 09:27 PM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 93
Yesterday I did something and I do not know where I found the courage to do it. I called my Dadís wife and asked if I could come over and talk to her. Since we were at her home a few days ago I had this nagging question, how did Dad handle his childhood sexual abuse and how did he overcome the pain and what we did to him.

My wife drove me over. We went inside and Dadís wife was so welcoming once again. My wife excused herself so we could talk. I said she should stay and she no it was time for me to learn about my Dad. I told her I wanted to know about Dadís abuse. She told me when I had my nervous breakdown several years ago, my Dad wanted to talk with me and share what he had been through. I know he called and talked to my wife and I wanted nothing to do with him. His wife said he understood your feelings and would not push you. She started to tell me about Dad and his abuse. She said she had met my Dad 24 years ago. He was suffering in silence and one day he disappeared. I could not find him nor could anyone else. After almost two weeks he calls. He tells me he is in the hospital 70 miles from here and had no idea how he got there. He told me he was found wandering the streets and somehow he must have passed out. They had him under observation for a week and he finally was able to call. He asked if I could come and see him. I said yes, my heart was pounding what happened to this poor man. When I arrived I was met by his doctor. He said your father gave permission for the doctors to speak to me. The doctors told me he had some type of amnesia. He had no memory of what happened for several days. They examined him for physical trauma and there was none. The psychiatrist spent time with him and believed he was hiding something, a dark secret and this secret was hurting him. You must remember this was 24 years ago and trauma was only beginning to be studied. The psychiatrist said this secret was causing him to have the memory lapses, your Dad was trying to escape the pain. I asked, what was the secret? They said they have limited information and it would be up to your father to tell me. I saw your father, he looked so different, so lost. I went in and held his hand. He said I looked great. We talked very little and I just asked him how he was feeling.

He was transferred to a local hospital and I would visit him every day. Some people thought I was crazy to be involved with him. I just knew there was something good about him. He had wonderful doctors and a psychiatrist who was on the cutting edge. He worked with your Dad even after he was an outpatient. Your Dad respected this man and eventually opened up and told him the whole story. It was at least nine months before he told me what happened with the Brother at his school. He cried and I held him. He did not give any details but for someone to hurt a child broke my heart. We went to a few joint sessions so I could learn about the impact the abuse had on his life. Being a psychologist I could understand but trauma was something I knew so little about. I learned so much from them. Your father then told me about his memory loss and what he supposedly did during those times. He said he does not remember anything and that is not who he was. He also opened up about what was happening in the home. He told me he remembers one time hot oatmeal being thrown on him and then not having any memory of what happened for about an hour or two. There was the times he was locked out of the house, in the garage. He said he felt trapped, even though the garages doors could be opened, he believed they were sealed tight, like he did when Bro. would take into the cloak room and abuse him. I spoke with his doctors and other psychiatrists and learned they believed he was telling the truth. They said with what people had done to him in his home were traumatic and somehow the acts would remind him of the abuse he suffered as a child. They called it a flashback. The past was so painful for him that he somehow lost memory of who he was. Some of my family were skeptics. I did not let them dissuade me. I am so glad I did not give in. They all came to love him and realized what happened to him could have killed him. Several began to read about the abuse and after the sexual abuse scandals in the church broke and most came to understand he was telling the truth about the loss of memory. I had 21 years of wonderful wedded bliss. We had a strong emotional and physical relationship. I am so glad I had him in my life. My children would laugh at his disguises to see his grandchildren, they admired how he gave to help the children at the advocacy center, they admired that he was always up and about helping others, he was the only grandfather my grandchildren knew. He wanted to do many things for you. He couldnít because he would be enabling you to bring more hurt and harm to him. That was his biggest regret in life.

She said over the years we learned so much about trauma and how it affected your father. We learned about dissociation, depersonalization, PTSD and neuroplasticity (I asked her to explain this one to me). She shared everything she knew. She told me my years with my Dad were an adventure and journey. He wanted so much to know why he acted the way he did so many years ago, why he have states of amnesia and most importantly he wanted to help children who were abused escape the long term consequences by receiving help at a young age. I would go with him to the center, to fundraisers and he would play Santa at the Center every year. He loved to see the smile on the childrenís faces. She said her children started bringing the grandchildren. It was so good for the young children to see not all children have a good life. It helped shape them and most of them still do volunteer work. He left them a legacy of giving to others in need or help or in despair. I was so proud at that moment to say I was this manís son. She smiled and said you are. I hear your concern for your brother and mother, your father would be proud of you for wanting to support and help them. You have him in you.

She also told me my Dad was very insecure when we were first married. Everytime my family called he had this fear I would leave. I told him over and over he was my main man, my main person in life. Over time he realized he was important to me. This was important to your Dad. He had been left so many times, when he was recovering from a heart attack to hearing what he did was not sufficient in others absences. She told me my Dad knew when it was necessary and essential and not by guilt to allow others to be with their families. He was a good man, a man I admired and cannot believe he survived everything he experienced. I could tell she truly loved him.

Dadís wife was honest. She said Dad knows what he supposedly did while he was trying to come to terms with the abuse hurt those around him. He also learned over the years much of it was triggered from the environment that was created in the home. Today, she said people understand an abusive environment can be destructive to a person who was sexually abused as a child. She apologized but there is no other way of saying it. I told her I understood and we were wrong and only now I realized it was abuse. My sister accepted it long ago and said Dad held no grudges. She said my Dad did not blame the children because they were only following the adults and he knew his children were still struggling with having been left by their mother for long periods of time. He wanted you to get help but did not have support from the other adults.

I told her I was in counseling trying to get over by own abuse. She said that was wonderful and I had a strong partner who would be there for me. Your Dad would be so proud of you she told me. I asked her some questions about the abuse, how long did it go on for, did he ever see his abuser again and did he ever tell anyone about it before he broke down? She answered every question and if she did not know she would say so. I asked did Dad ever tell you what he would have said if I had let him visit during my breakdown. She said he would have held you and let you know he understood your pain. I was sad. Once again he was a good man that I threw out of my life for the wrong reasons. Anyone here, if you are estranged from someone you love, get over it and talk before it is too late. At least try so you have no regrets. Remember why you are estanged, it is not always so black and white. I did not try to meet him halfway and I will carry this regret for the rest of my life. At least I am learning and sensing my Dad loved me.

I have this need to know more about him. His wife said anytime I wanted to talk she was here for me. I have so many questions. She asked about Mama and my brother. She said they are in her prayers. I believe she is sincere. Dad got a good one.

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#469943 - 09/12/14 10:37 AM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1745
I am glad you are finding the needed support. Sounds like your stepmother is helping you connect with your father. It is great to have someone like her in your corner. Good luck and thank you for sharing.

Kevin

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#469985 - 09/13/14 08:08 AM Re: Brother Hospitalized [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 93
Kevin I never thought to call Dad's wife my stepmother until you used the word in your post. I received a private message and someone wrote this about her, sounds like a great person wish there were more people like that in the world. That person is right, she talks from the heart and not the mouth. I wish Mama and her family knew the difference. I realize I was always so sick of hearing them talk about doing something for someone. I would hear over and over how the made dinner for a family who was sick or where someone was dying or how they gave so much time to this or that and blah blah blah and no one appreciated what they did. They expected an award and if no one acknowledged they had done something they talked about it over and over. I now realize they just wanted others to say how good they were and how they gave to everyone. They did not give they only wanted to receive praise. They talked from the mouth and not the heart.

I regret not having let Dad and his wife into my heart years ago. I know she would have made a wonderful stepmother. She may have taught my brother and I the true virtues of kindness and goodness. I know she will be there to help me. I need this now.

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