Newest Members
ShinTensei, jaklumen, Bennett, 0128, jeremywickers
12505 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Drea (31), gpdno (47), serb guy (49), Thomas8221 (60), UncleClover (43)
Who's Online
6 registered (I Want 2 Thrive, Damian1974, iaccus, 3 invisible), 22 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12505 Members
74 Forums
64198 Topics
447997 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Topic Options
#468438 - 08/03/14 07:20 PM No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 109
Many of you know I am dealing with several issues. My CSA, my family where a sense of abandonment occurred and then an very unhealthy reattachment with Mama, my Dad's death and learning of his CSA, my estrangement from my Dad and other issues.

Today I realized something. I was at my sister's house. We were looking photos on her bookshelves. She had her wedding picture and then a photo of her vow renewal at 15 years. Missing in her wedding picture was my Dad. In her wedding renewal Dad was there walking he down the aisle. I said this is a wonderful picture to have. She said to me, this is the way it should have been at my wedding day. Instead she said my bigoted uncle walked me down the aisle.

We began to talk. We talked about the renewal and how Mama, brother and I ignored Dad. Mama was furious he was there. Why did we hate Dad? We then talked about everything Mama and her family did to us, how they took Mama from us for their selfish reasons, how they always looked down at Dad and made fun of him and how the used Mama as their puppet. I asked why Uncle___, well he was one of Mama’s favorite two brothers. She idolized him. She joked and said in he told her to eat manure she would. He was as bad as the sisters, selfish only thinking about themselves. We talked about how Mama and her family taught us to hate Dad after he started to self destruct. We listened to them and threw him out of our lives. They did not even ask why he was doing what he was doing himself. My sister said it was his sexual abuse and the abuse Mama and we did to Dad that made him self destruct. Mama abandoned him after his heart attack. My sister told me it was only in therapy did she realize Dad was the only one who never left us, Mama left but not Dad. She said we followed Mama’s family and left him. We both cried. We kept asking, why would a person teach someone to hate another person?

Mama walked in, crying. She blurted I was wrong. I should never have so many mean things about your Dad in front of you. I should never have made you choose between me or Dad. I should never have told you about our private life. I should have talked to your Dad in private. I should have given your Dad help when he asked for help instead of listening to my sisters and brothers and sharing it with you. I did not know he had been sexual abused. Why was he afraid to tell me? My sister said he could not tell you, how you always talked to him and always listened to your mother, sisters and brothers. You taught us to hate Dad. Mama said I am so sorry. I should have encouraged you to love him, he was your father. I guess my mother always loved someone else and she told us several times she should have married this other man.

From all this, I realize no one should ever tell anyone who they can love and they should never teach anyone to hate. This has been the reason for so much trouble in my family.

Never tell anyone who they can love.

Top
#468439 - 08/03/14 07:58 PM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
Nothing Man Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 149
Loc: Ohio
Sorryson, thank you for the post. It evoked some memories I have of my own mother who was one of my abusers.

She always disapproved of every girlfriend I ever had. She would always find things to criticize about them and she would not stop. It got bad enough that I finally told her that she would not meet any more of my lady friends until I found the one I would marry -- and then she damned well better treat her right or she, my mother, would never see her grandchildren.

Then we went for about six months without speaking.

At that point I had pushed her sexual abuse out of my mind but she was still hitting me when she would get drunk and angry. The last time she hit me I walked out and did not see her or my father for about a year.

Ironically enough my mother died four months before her first grandchild, my elder daughter, was born. And now that I am actually trying to deal with the CSA she inflicted on me I am not sorry she is dead. My children will never have to deal with that monster.

Top
#468458 - 08/04/14 07:30 AM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 109
Nothing Man I am sorry for everything you went through with your mother. I think with my Mama I still love her, she did many good things. Mama has been sad now that she realizes everything bad that happened because of her family's control over her. She forgot us.

Mama cried when my sister asked why. Mama said I just wanted you to love me like you use to. I saw you go to Dad asking him things you would ask me before. You were so close to him. She said I think I was jealous. I wanted you back like it was so I must have done things I shouldn't. My sister went at her, saying it was you who left and then Dad becomes the bad one. Mama how could you do this to us? Mama said I wanted to be there for you. My sister jumped at her, how could you all you did was sleep, complain and treat Dad like a piece of crap. I do not know why we let you do this to us, we believed you. You should not have told us about yur sex life. It is wrong to bring children into your problems. Look at your children and how they lived. You blamed that on Dad too. This went on and on and all I could see was the teacher in the bathroom in the classroom with me. Doors locked. He would touch me, my pants were at my ankles. He would tell me he liked me and was here for me. He told me my mother left because she wanted to leave. I would say no she had to go. He said there were so many others in Chicago to take care of grandma she did not need to be there. She loved them more than you and he told me he would not leave. I would cry and sometimes he would say how could she leave your sick Dad, he had a heart attack. I would say he is better. Then I would give in and those bad things would happen. He told me I must be enjoying it because I was getting hard. I should have told Dad. The teacher with his priestly garb would say if I told him, Dad would have another heart attack. I did not say anything. I had to leave the room as Mama and my sister went at each other.

I called my wife and she came for me. She held me and I felt calm at last. I guess my Mama needed to hear what my sister felt and in the end my Mama said she was so sorry for everything. She even said she was wrong to let her sisters and brothers tell her what to do when they did not give up their husbands, wives, boyfriends or children. She also told us she needs to help my brother so he can live and not feel he must take care of her. I rolled my eyes, and said to myself we will see.

Last night, I had nightmares of the abuse. The arguing in the home between my sister and Mama must have rustled up the memories. My wife wss there as I was screaming and she held me when I woke up. She did not ask anything, she said try to relax. I am tired today and have to see my counselor this afternoon. I have read here that I need to let the memories out so I can heal. They are frightening and scary. I felt his hands over my body. I do not how because he was not in the room last night.

Top
#468491 - 08/04/14 06:05 PM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1792
Sorry for the bad times you are experiencing. From what you wrote it appears your memories were triggered by the words your mother and sister were exchanging. You will become sensitive to your triggers and the key is to identify any triggering events from words, smells or actions. It took me time to understand triggers-mine were words and actions others did around me and to me. I have been told the visceral feelings of his touch are body memories. Recently science has been exploring and many specialist believe the body and not only the brain store memories. Experts in Ptsd believe this to be real feelings. No he was not there but felt like he was there. I remember those feelings quite well,they are creepy and were more disturbing then the visual memories.

You need to focus on you and try to minimize your involvement in the foray that is going on around you with your brother, sister and mother. It all leads back to your mother's absence and you may be associating her absence as being a cause of the abuse. You said your abuser told you your mother left because she wanted to and not because she had to go. You have said you believe this to be true. If you believe it, hearing it may be triggering the past. A parental absence can be traumatic for children especially when they are young or in need of that parents love. Your doctor and therapist can better explain.

Please take care of yourself.

Take care of yourself. You are working hard and I hope your session went well today.


Edited by KMCINVA (08/04/14 06:10 PM)

Top
#468504 - 08/04/14 09:36 PM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
Bluedogone Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/03/13
Posts: 262
Loc: Southeast US
Hi sorryson,
I'm sorry this trauma of family relationships continues to pull you down. I hope the session with the counselor was productive, and you were able to get out of the ditch and back on the road of recovery. It's a real blessing to have such a loving and understanding wife who is simply THERE when you need to relax and re-group your thoughts.
You certainly have a lot of issues to deal with. My mom often criticized my father and we left him out of so much of our lives, but no where near as severely as you have written about. I can only imagine how heartbreaking it is to realize, too late, things that you regret. And I can only offer hugs {{{{{sorryson}}}}} and best wishes as you deal with what might have been.

CJ
_________________________
Never, never, never, never give up....Winston Churchill

Top
#468511 - 08/04/14 10:37 PM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 109
CJ thank you for sharing with me. My session was good. My counselor called my doctor during our session. I was shocked she was able to take his call. The three of us talked. It was good. She said I am in a difficult situation. She said Mama is trying to face her mother and siblings. She said she is what they taught her and how they treated her is all she expected. The doctor said Mama was trying to be brave and admit her family was wrong. She said my sister wants to hear it all, everything of their need to hurt Mama, Dad and you and your siblings. She knows or believe they did it intentionally. The doctor asked me if I thought so, I had to say yes. She asked why I said yes. I said they were jealous Mama escaped them. I said it was like my uncle, the college professor who left and lived a fun life with his wife and children. He was not tied down into making fun of everyone in their neighborhood or how they were such a wonderful family. He would say things were not always that good. He was the blacksheep. Dad was the only one who was sick and her family expected Mama to leave him. My counselor asked how would I feel if my wife left me when I was sick with my two children to take care of a parent when there were two, three, four or more people who could have done it. I said I would be resentful and realize my wife loved them more than me. She asked how do you think your father felt. I said I get it.

We next talked about what happened when Mama would come back. They both said men generally are more physical in their abuse and woman more psycholical or emotional. Mother's expect to be loved. The doctor said mother's always talk about a mother's love. She said the best mother's never talk about a mother's love but rather just plain love. A mother believes only she can love a child in a special and consuming way. This is wrong, a mother should love a child to grow and flourish, encourage them to fly and seek the best education, trade, or profession that makes them happy. She said mother's expect them to live their lives. She asked what did she expect of me. I said to be near her and live like her brothers and sisters lived. And your sister, to be like her. She said did either of you meet this expectation. I said no. I had my abuse to deal with and my sister her emotional separation, she corrected me abandonment, of my mother and her alcoholism. And your brother. I said she was her companion and never had a life at all. At least I had my wife and children. She said your wife saved you and your sister was saved by her husband.

I realized Mama did not want a husband just children. Dad was doomed from the beginning like grandpa. Grandpa was lucky he lived in a different time and had his brothers and sisters nearby. Dad did not have them nearby.

We finally talked about what happened last night. They said what Kevin said. The words and actions of Mama and my sister triggered the memories of the abuse. They told me I have linked the abuse with Mama's absence as my sister with the abandonment of Mama that was the core of her drinking and then alcoholism.

They told me mother's have more apt to criticize father's in front of the children. They learn to leave them out of their lives. The doctor sited several cultures which this is common, the father is see as being detached, but is detached because of controlling mothers. Mama is part of this cultural background.

I am grateful my wife is not this type of person and my children are living life on their own terms. I see my cousins who are living the same life Mama lived because they all think they are perfect. But their is the uncle, the college professor, whose children are free spirited and the kindest and nicest people you could meet. He is the only aunt or uncle on this side of the family I can say is good and tried to tell Mama to go home to us so many years ago. The rest of them were selfish. I cry for Dad he suffered at their hands and I must say Mama allowed them.

I think talking about it has helped me. My counselor said I need to keep away from those that trigger the memories and put me into a tailspin. It is hard, they are family. I was asked if they, included your Mama, considered your Dad family. I did not want to answer but said Grandpa did, the rest of them probably not.

I have much to think about and accepting Dad is gone. I can never tell him what I now know. I hope he loved me, because now I know I was taught to hate him but really loved him. My relationship with him will never be what it should have been.

Top
#468544 - 08/05/14 09:57 AM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1792
Sorryson

I am glad you are learning about triggers. I was being triggered continuously by people around. Once I learned about triggers, which was during my healing, or should I say once I accepted what was said and being done were triggers I was better able to develop coping mechanisms. Listen to your doctors and therapist. Do not be like me and dismiss what they tell you, I did and it had devastating effects on me.

I am happy progress is being made. I must admit I enjoy reading about your sister, she seems determined to resolve the issues of your childhood so she, you and your brother can have a good life. Keep your distance and work on the CSA, that is a challenge and takes your strength and can be emotionally draining.

You seem like you have a good therapist and doctor. They seem to understand what you are experiencing. I think you need to decide what is family. Because they are blood does not make them family, it is those who are there for you that make them family.

Good luck.

Kevin

Top
#468610 - 08/06/14 08:59 PM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 109
Everyone thank you for the notes and postings. It has been a volatile week for me. The other day Mama called and asked me to come over to my sisters. My wife drove and we both went. My wife is worried about me. She wants me to face the abuse and then what happened with Mama and her family. We went, Mama was somber and while serving lunch she said, I want to let you know I am sorry I left. I heard what you said, that the teacher thought you were lonely because I was gone. What he said to you was right. I felt guilty and thought I had to be there for my mother. Mama said I now realize it did not take all of us to take care of Mama. She said she was the one left behind while they went on with life and then would show up in the evenings complaining how tired they were and all they did for grandma. Mama said she babysat their children, would hear about the dance recitals and plays, the ball games. Mama said your sister was right I missed all that but they did not miss anything. She said you were lonely and your poor Dad, I am so sad what I did to him recovering from a heart attack, I left him and you. The teacher saw you were lonely and when he said I left he was right. I left all of you. She said she never saw it this way until a session with my brother. He said he was made to leave Dad, my sister and me. The counselor explained his feelings. The counselor asked her if she accepted she left them when it was necessary. Mama said she did not answer. She said this is the first time she is answering the question. When she said I left you something in me knew it was how I felt for so long. Mama asked for forgiveness. I said I would try. I asked her why did we have to be so mean to Dad and why when he asked for help did she treat him like a fox in the henhouse. Mama said I justed wanted you to love me like you did before I left. She said Dad had become you and your sisters life. I wanted you back like I had your brother. I liked when your brother said I was pretty or when you would say the boys at school thought I was hot. It made me feel like I was the center of your world. I now understand I was the bully friend and not your mother. She said your sister was right, for years after I returned I slept and complained about everyone. Your sister had so many talents. Your father wanted her to be involved and I told him that was dumb and she needed to sleep. She could have been a great gymnist if she got up in the morning and practiced. She said I wanted to sleep so she let her sleep. She told me you were always involved and was sorry your father was the only one to take you to your activities and help you. When Mama said this i asked her why did you always tell us over and over you did everything. She said because her mother did this and over time she believed it. I thought about Dad and realized then he was the only one at my activities or was the one driving me in the mornig or at night. I told Mama I am sorry I hurt Dad and what you did was to manipulate us with emotional shanigans. I told her I lost a Dad over 25 year ago because of her and her family. I asked how can I forgive her. She cried and said I hope in time.

I know my feelings and I am empty for my Dad and do not know how I feel about Mama. My wife she was brave and it took a lot of strength to tell you this. My wife asked isn't it better to know now instead of wondering when she is gone if she knew she was wrong? I guess my wife is right.

The next day I was very washy. I talked to my doctor and she gave me some things to think about. I think I am better knowing and Mama was right, I was lonely when she was gone and the teacher saw it in me. I know everyone knew Mama should have not been gone like she was for so many months. They all knew she had plenty of family near grandma to take care of her. To hear Mama say she was wrong, and it was probably the first time I heard those words out of mouth, made me think maybe she is human with faults and wrongs.

I think this helps me to see the abuse for what it may have been. I have plenty of work to resolve the abuse.

Top
#468637 - 08/07/14 08:28 AM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
sorryson Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 109
Love is so hard. It should be simple but everyday I am more baffled why people do bad things to others so they can be loved. My sister told me last night Mama went to the doctors after we had lunch with her. Mama is now on medication. My sister said Mama told her she felf so bad about what she did to Dad. She said she did not realize how bad she was in encouraging us to hurt Dad. She also said after Dad refused to help my brother with expenses for school I kept telling your brother Dad was evil and selfish. Mama supposedly told the doctor this today. The doctor asked if someone attacked you over and over would you give them money, a car, a house? Mama said no. The doctor asked her why? She said because I know they would not appreciate it and would be using me. The doctor said right. The doctor asked Mama what should she have told my brother. Mama said she could not answer the doctor but told my sister she should have said would you help someone who locked you out of the house, destroyed work files, threw oatmeal on you and all the horrible words that you screamed. Mama said she did not. My sister is shocked at how honest Mama is becoming. Me, I am baffled how all of a sudden she can see all the wrong that was done.

I wonder if my abuser ever saw the wrong the did. Maybe it all has to happen together. Accepting what Mama did, accepting Dad was thrown out of our lives because of what Mama and Mama's family did and what I, my brother and sister did, accepting as my sister said Dad never stopped loving us even Mama and that he knew everything was like poison with us. I must accept all this with the abuse by the teacher. It seems to be too much. I am trying.

Top
#468638 - 08/07/14 10:40 AM Re: No One Should Tell Us Who We Can Love [Re: sorryson]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1792
Sounds like with age comes wisdom, your father's passing and your sister confronting your Mom seems to have been the perfect storm to look at her life. Unfortunately sometimes it takes a death for people to realize what they have and have not done. I can only say I hope the words from your mother's mouth relieves some of the pain and you can enjoy the future with her. I also hope it gives you the strength to resolve the abuse with the priest because you have started the process and may not realize it.

I wish you the best and keep sharing your story. Sharing and not keeping it a secret allows you to heal. For you, everything seems to be interwoven.

Kevin

Top


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.