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#464917 - 05/03/14 05:09 PM Informed consent, and recreational drug use.
BigV Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 63
Hi there, I wanted to pass this by you all, and get your perspectives on it, because, quite frankly, I'm not sure anymore how to interpret some things that have happened in my adult life.

Years ago, I use to be something of a "psychonaut", and I regularly used substances recreationally. Needless to say, my experimental phase is behind me, and quite frankly, I experimented so much, I became bored with it, and I probably wouldn't have done any of it if I wasn't getting it for free. Anyway, it's not so much my reasons or motivations for having done so at the time, as it is with how it effected my judgment at one particular point.

I was at a party with some new friends of mine, and they had ketamine, and they let me try some. So I did, voluntarily, and I got high. This was after most of the guests had led the party. Eventually, it was just me, and my two new friends, a couple who I had met a few weeks earlier. The couple invited me to join them for a threesome, and so I did... but I still high.

Eventually, we moved into a place together, and were roommates for a few years. I never did anything sexual with either of them ever again. I lived with the women a few years after the man had left, after they parted ways. Again, we never did anything sexual ever again. She's since moved out, and since, our friendship has gone completely south. She became belligerent with me, emotionally abusive, and so fourth. While I moved on from our days of heavy drug use, she continued on into a downward spiral with her cocaine addiction, which was eventually replaced with an amphetamine addiction, etc. All the while, I played the nice guy/ yes man/ enabler to her increasingly toxic personality and behavior. Currently, I still have her things stored at my place, while she was footloose, living in her van in southern California.

But she's back, for one reason or another, and wants her things back, and I'd be more than happy for her to get her stuff, and get lost, because, quite frankly, I'm done being the perpetual push over, and putting up with her abusiveness. She is quite possibly the most belligerent person I have ever known. She's a human wrecking ball, I use to stand by and watch as she destroyed men's reputations after dating and dumping them... in a small town, where she was a relative new comer. I stood by, watched, enabled, even encouraged her destructiveness. So, yeah, as a friend, I played my part by not calling her on her bs, her self-destructiveness, nor did I just walk away. I fully acknowledge that, now. But she is an adult, and she's therefore responsible for her own behavior, and all the resulting consequences.

But now she's coming back to get her stuff, and I'm accommodating her by letting her come onto the property to pick it up. We had an agreement about her storing her things here, and so I'm holding up my end of the agreement.

The thing is, is that I really, really, really dread having to be around her. And it isn't just because I let myself get sucked into a codependent friendship with her (witch, to me, sounds ridiculous for a grown man to say), there's something more, something much, much deeper. Well, today, after seeing a friends post on facebook related to male survivors of sexual assault, it occurred to me... whenever I think back to that time I slept with her and her partner, I don't think of it fondly... I've never felt good about it. I've never really felt quite right about it, and it just occurred to me today that I feel this way, after having had sex with someone while under the influence of drugs. Drugs they knew I was on, although they were high at the time as well.

The problem is, is I can't figure out if I was in fact able to give consent, or if they were able to receive it. Was I assaulted? For that matter, were they (they were just as high as I was)? Was it all completely voluntary? Why do I dread being around this women so much, this person who I use to consider one of my closest friends, and even lived and worked with for years? Perhaps I'm still in shock from how emotionally abusive she has become... but this is bothering me for some reason. I've realized that I regret that night, and that I was under the influence, and that I did something I wouldn't have done if I wasn't high.

I'm not really interested in pointing fingers, and laying blame. We were all playing with fire. I just feel like I've hit upon something that I really need to sort out in my head, and, well, I kind of need to check in with you guys, and get some other perspectives on this. Was I assaulted, or did I make my own bed, and now I have to lie in it? It's complicated, yet I can't help but connect my sense of dread to her and to that night.

And just to contextualize this; I do believe that I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I'm fairly certain my abuser was a grown women, and quite possibly a doctor, or some other medical personnel. My memories around this are rather confusing, as I remember it as a witness, and not so much a participant. But the images of it have always been their, in my memory, from since about the age of four. But I suffer frequent bouts of disassociation, and I often feel alienated or distanced from my own memories... even as an adult, I feel detached from memories that should illicit all kinds of old feelings, but they don't. It doesn't help that I was raised by extremely emotionally invalidating parents, who even invalidated my memories of things, and perception of situations... so now I've come to internalize that invalidation. I'm not sure how to verify and validate these feelings and memories, and that's kind of why I'm here.

btw, I realize people here have their own opinions about mind altering substances, and non-traditional sexual activity and relationships... but that's not what I'm here to discuss. I'm not interested in being judged on secular or religious grounds for my past or current lifestyle choices. I'm here for sober thought and reflection, that's all. I'm sure there's people who would disapprove of my home brewing and love of craft beers. To each their own.

Any helpful insight, support, and/or perspectives would really be appreciated. Thanks guys.


Edited by BigV (05/03/14 05:13 PM)

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#464977 - 05/05/14 02:45 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 165
Hi there. These threads tend to get blocked up here. Soi am going to try and answer honestly yet politely.

If you want a hard yes or no... its sounds like you had a good guage of your limits with chemical exploration/. You werent like too messed up to function and yended up living w some of these people so there was at least on some levels a connection?

Abusive, id say not necessarily (though you need to look within you). I would say that she sounds dangerous.

If you really want to set a firm irrefutable boundary. Hold yourself to your word but be firm? You can contact a sherrif officer to be present hen she takes her stuff back and then send her on her way.

Coercive and manipulative and reputation destroying people are abusive in their own way.

Thats my twocents FIW
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#464980 - 05/05/14 04:31 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
BigV Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 63
Thank you, Tyr. I suppose all I can do is learn from my, and other people's mistakes, rather than trying to set clear definitions and boundaries on everything. Perhaps I just have to accept that it will never be clear to me... perhaps it doesn't need to be. But I am accepting my feelings around it with awareness, which I haven't done, until now.

As for having cops present, I'd rather have that as the last resort. My current roommate, as it turns out, also suffers from some mental health issues. Apparently this stems from having been beaten up by a couple of officers when he was a teenager. So I rather not have him triggered, which is guaranteed to make the situation worse.

And just to clarify, I no loner do illegal drugs. After dealing with my ex-roommate, who a recovering coke addict, I'm pretty much completely turned off of such things. I've even quit smoking, and don't smoke pot. Home made beer is my last vice, if you could call it that. Other than that, trail running, and mountain biking, and wild-crafting are my big highs. They're addictive, make me feel good, and they're healthy. Can't go wrong with that.

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#464997 - 05/05/14 11:35 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
genedebs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
Dear Big V

Simply put, you were aware of the choice you made even though you were high. Whether they took advantage of you is difficult to say, but basically you were of the age of consent and were aware you were making decisions while you were high and not making the best judgements.

You obviously do not need to make the same mistake again. And you are no longer putting yourself in such a compromising situation.

Giving her access to your space to get her things is part of your
agreement. If she becomes abusive, you must be willing to protect yourself and throw her out. You do not have to put up with her while she gets her stuff.

If she still has stuff at your place after she has demonstrated
her beligerence tell her where and when you will put her stuff in
the street. That is the end of it. She has no legal rights to anything anyway.

We all live with bad decisions. It is only when there are no options but bad decisions to choose from that we really did not
have a real choice.

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#465055 - 05/07/14 05:48 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
honorableman Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 25
Loc: United States
Big V,
I believe you were purposefully given the drugs to weaken your defenses and then the couple came on to you with THEIR idea of a 3 some. It wasn't your idea.

Same scenario happened to me, basically, being hit on by my female boss and lied to to get me into a bedroom situation where her husband surprised me and they began their grooming.

I'm free and so should you be. They had a plan and took advantage of you. Not guilty.

PM me if you ever want to talk. Stand tall Big V.

Regards,

Honor

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#465153 - 05/09/14 04:37 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
BigV Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 63
Thanks, Honor.

I still don't feel it was quite that clear... I don't think anyone thought "let's give this guy some drugs and then get him to have to have sex with us." The threesome was definitely spontaneous... and the use of drugs was just considered a par for the course of having a good party... no expectations... sober, non-drinking/non-drug users did frequent our parties, and their desire to not use mind altering substances were always respected.

My feeling is that, just as I should have known better... they should have known better. It was at her house, she was five years my senior (I was in my late twenties), it was her party, and they were her drugs. So, yeah, the ownness was on both of us... but me owning up to my own mistakes, does not excuse her from her own.

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#465156 - 05/09/14 05:37 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
BigV Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 63
Thanks, Honor.

I still don't feel it was quite that clear... I don't think anyone thought "let's give this guy some drugs and then get him to have to have sex with us." The threesome was definitely spontaneous... and the use of drugs was just considered a par for the course of having a good party... no expectations... sober, non-drinking/non-drug users did frequent our parties, and their desire to not use mind altering substances were always respected.

My feeling is that, just as I should have known better... they should have known better. It was at her house, she was five years my senior (I was in my late twenties), it was her party, and they were her drugs. So, yeah, the ownness was on both of us... but me owning up to my own mistakes, does not excuse her from her own.

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#465162 - 05/09/14 08:10 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
honorableman Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 25
Loc: United States
I understand Big V. I was projecting my own stuff on to your situation.

You know in life we make mistakes don't we. We start thinking with our little heads smile.

I have a small magnet that I hide in my desk that says "Another fine mess my penis got me into."

We have to take responsibility for our actions but also understand that sometimes we are not completely in control of our "sexual instincts".

Take responsibility and we can then forgive ourselves.

We all make mistakes, bro. I did the same thing you did, so don't beat yourself up anymore. OK?

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#465265 - 05/12/14 05:29 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
BigV Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 63
I gotchya, Honor. I think we're all seeing things from our own perspectives, so a little projection is bound to happen... thanks for your in put, it was helpful.

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#465534 - 05/20/14 12:27 PM Re: Informed consent, and recreational drug use. [Re: BigV]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 935
Loc: southern California
BigV,
Your question and dilemma are clear and simple, but I believe the answer is complex and layered.

We all share the trait of mixing conscious memories, subconscious memories, self-guilt, regret, shame, etc.

Overall you sound like many of us, with a question that probably can only be truly answered by yourself.

You're doing the right thing though, trying to look at the situation from different perspectives.

I've not experienced being high or drunk, sorry I'm not helpful there. A news item this morning reported that a drunken man was arrested for stripping in a public bar and humping an arcade game machine and a wooden picnic table; so I assume anything is possible under the influence of anything mind-altering.

It's an important point your question brings up, though. How do male survivors of sexual assault by adults define the differences between, "inebriated and seduced" vs. "groomed and assaulted," especially when both seem to carry shame and self-guilt in the aftermath?
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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