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#464625 - 04/26/14 10:26 PM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Sven]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1400
Originally Posted By: Sven
ok.. well appereantly im not allowed to have opinions on the matter (unless its yours of course) so i suppose i won't try to explain myself any further

Well I appreciate your perspectives, Sven. The fact is that our opinions will never change whatever the facts are. And - regardless of what really happened in the MJ case - when someone does make false accusations, it is harmful to everyone - most especially to the true victims.

It does not follow that because some victims are falsely characterized as opportunists trying to "cash in" with trumped up charges that no accuser should be questioned about their motives. That "reactionary logic" is fundamentally flawed, in my opinion. To me, healing is about uncovering the truths of my past. Opinions -as convincing as we may find them and as seductive as they are - can be powerful distractions from that mission.
_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#464652 - 04/27/14 03:10 PM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Jude]
GentleSoul Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 236
Loc: Manhattan
who gots the lyrics to this song? the lyrics just basically depict the truth about CSA. who thinks this MJ song is porn?
_________________________
I can finally admit I pretend to say and do nice things so people will think I'm a standout guy.

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#464728 - 04/28/14 08:36 PM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Jude]
Canuck Offline


Registered: 05/26/10
Posts: 57
Loc: CA, United States
It’s always amusing to find that people who have this "progressive” view that we should always assume that the accused is innocent until “proven” otherwise in court, are somehow more altruistic than people who choose to take the accuser at their word. Surely, it would be horrible to be falsely accused, but THAT is a crime too, and can be prosecuted if necessary.

In either case, arguing that *you’re* not being allowed to have an opinion because someone disagrees vehemently with your approach, or accusing people of having “reactionary logic” is just as “fundamentally flawed” as it is to assume that because someone has filed a lawsuit (especially in California, which has severe statutes of limitations) that their motives are “questionable.”

In my first reply to this thread, I talked about criminal statutes of limitations because this statement was made:
“If you really thought he did those things ... Wouldn't you have taken him to court regardless?"

I made the assumption that the poster was meaning wouldn't you have taken him to CRIMINAL court. I made that assumption because the typical ridicule used against victims of child molestation who sue in this state is: “If it really happened, then you should have taken them to CRIMINAL court…”

Now, in re-read, I see that this statement may been asking: “Why did the parents just settle instead of taking the lawsuit all the way to trial.”

Here’s an example of why:

A man who was molested by the same perp who molested me (same California law and statutes of limitations as the MJ cases) DID decide to sue the molester, because the criminal statute of limitations had passed. The lawsuit was an “anonymous” lawsuit – Both the plaintiff and defendant use an assumed name so that the press/public can’t get details.

The victim in this case desperately did not want his family (children) friends, co-workers, etc to find out about what he had gone through.

Statute of limitations for LAWSUITS (California) require that only a few years have passed between the time that you “realized” the damage and you filed the lawsuit. Therefore, the defendant has the RIGHT to ask for proof that you did not “realize” that there was damage prior to a few years before filing date.

So, while the molester was to remain anonymous, here is a VERY PARTIAL list of things that victim was required to turn over if he was to proceed to trial (Keep in mind that the victim was about 8 years old at the time of molestation, so the list that he’s expected to provide is quite lengthy):

*Please produce ANY DOCUMENTS reflecting ANY diagnosis YOU received for a psychological, psychiatric, or emotional condition.

*information related to any military service that Plaintiff may have had. This information could lead to the discovery of admissible evidence related to Plaintiff' s psychological and emotional state because of the physical and psychiatric testing that is typically conducted by the military. Evidence of Plaintiff' s psychological and emotional state at a time that proceeded [claimed molestation] would be directly relevant to determining whether Plaintiff suffered any injuries as a result of the allegations against [Defendant]

*Please produce ANY DIARY that YOU maintained between the date that [claimed molestation occured] until the present.

*Please produce ALL DOCUMENTS CONCERNING ANY COMMUNICATION that YOU ever made complaining of DR. DOE' s [claimed molestation] of YOU. *NOTE there is a very long paragraph defining “communication.”

*[Defendant] attempting to learn whether Plaintiff confided in any of his close friends, roommates, and pastors ( if applicable) about the alleged conduct, so that [Defendant] can examine whether there is other evidence from other people that could support Plaintiff' s allegations. Also, evidence that plaintiff spoke to others about mistreatment by [Defendant] would be directly relevant to proving that Plaintiff' s claims are outside the Statute of Limitations because Plaintiff would have known about the cause of his various claimed injuries before [statute of limitations] had transpired.

There are then several pages of specific lists of who should be included for the defendant to contact to discuss the plaintiff’s molestation including elementary school, high school, college friends, casual acquaintances, girlfriends or boyfriends, Co-workers, SOCIAL MEDIA contacts, church parishioners, etc… Names, phone numbers, addresses, and emails were demanded.

There was also a battery of about 30 very detailed and lengthy psychological tests that the victim was going to be subjected to. (By the way, the molester was a child psychiatrist – so the victim would have preferred to gouge his eyes out with a fork before he spent days in some fool shrink’s office…)

If you think this isn’t a *standard* ploy to show the victim just how much more the defendant will f*ck up their life if they don’t settle, then you’re a fool.

So, when they dangled the settlement check, he took it. I don’t blame him, and frankly, I don’t need to associate with anyone who *does* blame him.

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#464737 - 04/28/14 11:38 PM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Jude]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1567
Loc: New England
Well this thread has gone way beyond what I intended. Cool off guys.

Personally I still find alot to question in the MJ case. Why would a guy like MJ, under constant public scrutiny the world over, continue to invite boys into his bedroom after the first accusations were settled? Why wouldn't he say to himself "Whoa, I don't want to go down this road anymore"? Like there were no extra bedrooms in his mansion to put those kids in? He was either a pedophile, or he was so addled by drugs that he was incapable of making rational decisions.

And now the world is supposed to buy his CD full of old tracks that weren't good enough to release when he was alive? And we are all supposed to say "Aww gee, he couldn't have been guilty, he wrote a song about child abuse".

That being said, I think we all have better things to do than debate the guilt of a dead pop star. There are too many of these pedophile monsters alive and still roaming the streets. Its them we should be going after. Just sayin.

Jude
_________________________
Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine.
Sheryl Crow

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#464743 - 04/29/14 03:27 AM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Jude]
Canuck Offline


Registered: 05/26/10
Posts: 57
Loc: CA, United States
The reason they're alive and still roaming the streets is because *everyone* is too timid and afraid of being the politically incorrect a**hole who calls them out.

The perps are evil because they are evil; But the people who defend them and drop their vigilance because they're afraid someone is going to accuse them of not following "innocent until proven guilty" are evil because they *chose* to look the other way when evil was doing what it always does.

Not up to me to decide who is worse, I suppose, but I'll never again hesitate to call attention to the problem. I've been called plenty of names because of it. Witch hunts are supposed to be a bad thing, I take it... not when the witches are real, I think.


Edited by Canuck (04/29/14 03:28 AM)

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#464751 - 04/29/14 09:49 AM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Canuck]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1400
Originally Posted By: Canuck
The reason they're alive and still roaming the streets is because *everyone* is too timid and afraid of being the politically incorrect a**hole who calls them out.

The perps are evil because they are evil; But the people who defend them and drop their vigilance because they're afraid someone is going to accuse them of not following "innocent until proven guilty" are evil because they *chose* to look the other way when evil was doing what it always does.

Not up to me to decide who is worse, I suppose, but I'll never again hesitate to call attention to the problem. I've been called plenty of names because of it. Witch hunts are supposed to be a bad thing, I take it... not when the witches are real, I think.

Wow. I think I disagree with just about everything you said, but I hope you understand that my disagreement does not translate to a personal judgment about you. I respect your perspectives - if they are like mine or like Sven's or like Jude's or anyone else's, you can respect that we all come from different places. We all have different experiences, and that creates different truths. My truth? My perp wasn't evil. He was defective. The minute I ascribe "evil", I have lumped him into a convenient class - a characature - and in so doing blind myself to any further truth. In my experience, the loud and angry voices that condemn these "monsters" are very often the same ones who - feeling validated in their own indignation - look away. That's precisely what happened in my case. Had the adults looked at the situation without judgement - really looked deeply at what was going on beyond their quick and superficial assessments and labeling, I could have been spared a lot of what brought me here to MS. I was on the front lines of that battlefield, pulling him off little girls every chance I had. I didn't have the time or luxury to indulge in judgement or hate.

Taking it back to Michael Jackson - is it possible he just wanted to be a boy again? That he just wanted to be one of them, not have sex with them? That there was no sexual component - just a pretend world of slumber paries and water gun fights, in which he was a boy again? A true Neverland? More to the point, who are we to judge that without the facts? Like us, he had his childhood stolen, albeit in a different way. Like many of us, his growth as an adult may have been pruned abruptly, and he related more easily to kids than to adults. I did for a while, too. I would never dream of being to those younger friends what my molester was to me and to my baby sister. And I would be devastated to be judged otherwise by anyone who assumed they just knew otherwise - with a lick and a seal - and no evidence beyond their own assumptions. With a blanket dismissal of any other explanation. That transcends truth and becomes arrogance. And I have learned never to trust those arrogant voices.

This quote by Winston Churchill pretty much sums up how I feel about the opinions: The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Having an "opinion" on what MJ may have done is like having an opinion on what the current weather is. The truth resides separately from our beliefs.

I think this is a conversation worth having. But I also think we should tread more gently around the feelings of our fellow survivors.
_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#464752 - 04/29/14 10:19 AM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Jude]
bey Offline


Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 206
Loc: canada
I agree with you Eric, I also don't feel like my perps were evil. They did really terrible things, but I know they were really hurt and sure, they made terrible choices, but they were not evil. I still love them, despite the pain the caused me. I think I see most people who hurt people like that - for me, I think seeing them as evil gives me a pass to not look at the causes of abuse, not focus on the very human reasons people hurt each other. I want to see abusers as human because as much as I hate to admit it, doing shitty things and hurting people is a very human thing to do. Some of us just take that further than others.

As for MJ... did he touch those boys? Yeah, in my opinion, he did. But like Eric I think the cause of it was probably wanting so badly to be a boy again, maybe he explained it and justified it to himself, maybe thinking "well this is what young boys do." In any case, yes, children were hurt, and there is no excuse for ever hurting a child. but there are reasons. I guess everyone has a reason.

And if i was that boy? You'd better believe I would have taken the settlement and ran with it. Can you imagine that court case? I wouldn't have been able to do it.

And as for the song, meh, I guess there is a reason it wasn't released before. If i was MJs publicist, i would have been wary about releasing a song about the evils of abuse when the artist in question is accused of abuse! Its weird, thats for sure. But maybe it shows that he didn't see what he was doing as the same thing as "abuse". I don't think anyone can argue that MJ was a very strange, probably very hurt and unwell, man.

Pheuf, that was a lot of topics to cover...

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#464759 - 04/29/14 03:22 PM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Jude]
Canuck Offline


Registered: 05/26/10
Posts: 57
Loc: CA, United States
Eric, you claim that your "disagreement does not translate to a personal judgment about [me]." and that you "respect [my] perspectives." You claim that you "think we should tread more gently around the feelings of our fellow survivors."

And you offer this up:

"Churchill pretty much sums up how I feel about the opinions: The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is."

And yet you claim that "We all have different experiences, and that creates different truths."

Who is holding the correct truth, and who is attacking truth with malice?



Edited by Canuck (04/29/14 03:23 PM)

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#464803 - 04/30/14 08:45 AM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Canuck]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1400
Quote:
Who is holding the correct truth, and who is attacking truth with malice?

I wish I could answer that for you, Mr. Canuck. You seem to suggest an inconsistency in my words. I'm sorry, but I see none. I expressed my opinion. I respect other opinions that differ. By offering my own perspectives, I am not trying to dissuade you from yours.
_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#464841 - 04/30/14 11:30 PM Re: New MJ Album Includes Song About Child Sex Abuse [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1567
Loc: New England
The question of the existence of evil in the world is never going to be settled in an online forum guys.

I presume we can all agree that the molestation, rape, torture, murder, and use in porn and prostitution, of children are evil acts. But are the perpetrators of these acts evil? That seems to be where we differ. Perhaps it would be wise to defer that debate for another time and place. Evil people or not, these evil acts need to be stopped. Can we just focus on that?

My state implemented a program several years ago that seems to have significantly impacted the rate of reported child abuse of all kinds. Its worth a quick read: What Works: Preventing Child Abuse and Neglect in Your Community

Jude
_________________________
Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine.
Sheryl Crow

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