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#462897 - 03/20/14 02:39 PM Fred Phelps is Dead
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fred-phelps-sr-westboro-baptist-churchs-fiery-founder-dies-at-84/

...Led by Phelps, church members thanked God for roadside explosive devices and prayed for thousands more casualties...

I just know there has to be a parade in New Orleans' French Quarter...
_________________________



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#462909 - 03/20/14 07:17 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
BraveFalcon Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/25/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: The ATL
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fred-phelps-sr-westboro-baptist-churchs-fiery-founder-dies-at-84/

...Led by Phelps, church members thanked God for roadside explosive devices and prayed for thousands more casualties...

I just know there has to be a parade in New Orleans' French Quarter...


Ding-dong, the mean old douche is dead! Ha ha! Normally I would never hope for or celebrate the demise of another human being but..... F*** THIS GUY!!!! Seriously.

Ken

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#462911 - 03/20/14 07:22 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Rusty563 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 200
Loc: Anywhere, USA
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!
_________________________
There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you - Maya Angelous
Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed - Martin Luther King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qF_qbaWt3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOkMSf-F14

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#462920 - 03/21/14 12:28 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1536
Loc: New England
Unfortunatley, his views will not die with him. Westboro Baptist Church has not renounced his hatefull message. I take only small comfort in knowing that they are a relatively small organization, and their bizzare "God Hates You" campaign only serves to make homophobia appear uglier and more disreputable.
_________________________
Well, I won't back down
No I won't back down
You can stand me up at the gates of hell
But I won't back down.
Tom Petty

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#462929 - 03/21/14 10:20 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
ShortedDiode Offline


Registered: 11/26/11
Posts: 99
Loc: Hamilton, ON Canada
Good riddance to that nasty piece of work.
_________________________
If it's a choice between laughing or crying, I'd rather laugh.

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#462930 - 03/21/14 11:02 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
traveler Offline
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Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3420
Loc: somewhere in Africa
if there is a heaven and hell, as he believed, i am sure that he has been surprised to find himself where he ended up.
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#462935 - 03/21/14 01:39 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Jude]
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
Originally Posted By: Jude
Unfortunatley, his views will not die with him. Westboro Baptist Church has not renounced his hatefull message. I take only small comfort in knowing that they are a relatively small organization, and their bizzare "God Hates You" campaign only serves to make homophobia appear uglier and more disreputable.

While true that his views do not die with him, the group remains at the fringes of any acceptable social behavior. That gives me comfort. The Westboro Baptist Church has served to show us the logical extension of similar vitriol that is spewed perhaps a bit less caustically from the less tolerant among us. In that sense, they have advanced the very causes against which they have fought simply by demonstrating who they are.

I am totally down with letting them hang themselves with their own hateful rhetoric. If my existence serves as the rope, so be it.
_________________________



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#462943 - 03/21/14 03:16 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 407
Loc: west coast
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/03/14/exc...s-might-be-gay/

He was the worst kind of self hater turning it outward. I wanna puke. This is from the article written by a former member of the "church"

Drain went on to say that she thought his reaction to being asked by the media if he was gay himself was suspicious, in that it was particularly extreme.
“I never understood why, when [he was asked by the press], ‘Why are you so against the homosexuals? Did you have a homosexual experience? Do you have homosexual tendencies?’ And he would get so mad, he would shut down. And he’d be like, ‘I can’t talk to this person anymore, they’re stupid.’
“His reaction to that was stronger than any other question you can ask him. So I always wondered that — why does he get so mad? If I’m not gay, I’ll just say I’m not gay.”
She went on to say that speculating on the matter was all she could do, as she didn’t know the true reason for his reaction to those questions.
She said: “But something happened, and something made him change his mind about the military, and in turn have kind of a crusade against sexual immorality and homosexuals.”


It must suck when your whole life is made up of nothing but the "wrath". This is why I am so anti religion. He was following an ultra Calvinistic crusade that was clearly a rejection of his own unwanted homosexual feelings.

When asked "can you preach the bible without preaching the hatred of God?" his answer was "absolutely not!". If you read the bible, he is Correct. To say otherwise is to cherry pick. Its all in there. The King James bible is considered the cornerstone of modern english language christianity. Yet he himself was a devout homosexual.
http://etb-history-theology.blogspot.ca/2012/03/king-james-was-gay.html

From the many self flagellating saints, to markus bachman, Exodus, Ted Haggard, oh the list is way too long and repugnant, Self hating homo's lead the battle against themselves. We are not fooled.

Somehow when all the sins are listed and it is determined that homosexuality is the WORST one responsible for floods, fires, school shootings and gives impetus and rationale for groups like WBC to Gleefully pronounce "GOD HATES FAGS" then as Shakespeare so astutely observed:
He " doth protest too much"
!!!!
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#462955 - 03/21/14 06:10 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
ThisMan Offline
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Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
And we all should say only nice things about the dead.
Phelps is dead.
How nice….
(pulled from a cnn article I just read- couldn't resist.)

And wouldn't it be nice if this obsessive hatred that has permeated 21st century society in the U.S. were also dead. But, it isn't.
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#462966 - 03/21/14 11:29 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Rustam Offline
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Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 470
Loc: UK
His message was horrible and he seemed like an arrogant angry idiot but he did study scripture and could back up his anger and hate with biblical scholarship. Phelps had as much reason as any other preacher or man of god to proclaim what he sincerely believed. His fellow church members are no different to anyone else who follow the faith they grew up in, they have as much evidence as anyone that they are preaching the word of god. He might have embarrassed more moderate christians but his interpretation of scripture has as much legitimacy as that of anyone else.

I watched the Louis Theroux programme on his church, I felt very sad for the children being forced to go on the pickets and putting up with the hatred from the public. Sure the children are brainwashed but their parents are only teaching their children what they believe, all people of faith hope to pass on their faith to their children. The church is small and mostly family but if it does grow like other faiths have, how many churches does it need to have before it is respected like any other.

Phelps and his congregation are people of faith, obeying gods law and whether we like the message or not, they are doing what they believe to be right, we have to respect Phelps and his congregation if we are expected to respect the faith of others. Yes his message is more disturbing than most types of christianity but he was as sincere a christian and man of god as anyone can claim to be.

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#462969 - 03/22/14 06:07 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
don64 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 703
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Rustam,

I always become extremely concerned when anyone tells me what obeying God's Law is. It seems to me that the Bible and God's law are continuously re-interpreted by human beings.

I do agree that tolerance and respect is a healthy way to live, and I do my best to translate tolerance and respect in every aspect of my life. But you, Rustam, make statements about "all people of faith," "obeying gods law." And, you also make mention of Phelp's "interpretation of scripture." My experience is people and religions interpret scripture quite differently. The point of this to me is this is a forum devoted specifically to Gay, Bi, Trans issues, and it feels insensitive to me that you are preaching here about respecting the perspective of a man who has spread terrible hatred for me as a gay man. Maybe you believe hatred has something to do with God, but I don't. And, I don't believe that makes either of us right or wrong. It's how I am experiencing myself at this time. I grow, change, evolve. My perspective changes as I mature.

Saying "he was as sincere a christian and man of god as anyone can claim to be" feels to me as if you are making decisions about who is a sincere man of god and christian and implying that the posters in this forum need to learn to think as you do. I understand that you are the only one who can bring into focus your beliefs and understandings about yourself, but to make proclamations about how other people need to think and believe is rather scary to me. It implies that you have some special right to dispense truth. I think the way I think. Period. It would never occur to me to tell you how to think.

For me, your comments are appropriate in the Spirituality forum, and in that forum I would not give this a second thought. But, here, it feels extremely insensitive.

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

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#462972 - 03/22/14 10:37 AM -a poem about the preacher of persecution [Re: Chase Eric]
WriterKeith Offline
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 951
Loc: southern California
Poor Mean Fred.
Fred is dead.
Like H.H. Holmes, he made his bed.

He hated everyone alike,
From soldiers and veterans of the Middle East strike,
To Christians, homosexuals, reporters, Jews,
Or any subculture one could choose;

They did not like Fred in the North
Where he would picket back and forth;

They did not like Fred in the South
Where he would run his nasty mouth;

They did not like him in the East
They did not like him in the least;

Fred was not welcome in the West
Where he would hold his hate protest;

Will mean Fred be in Heaven fair?”
‘Cause Fred’s not welcome anywhere.

St. Peter, shut the gates and shout,
“Mean Fred, you’re a soul we ALL can do without!”
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#462977 - 03/22/14 01:23 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Rustam]
ThisMan Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
I also appreciate your comments, Rustam. I was going to respond yesterday, but thought I would give some time to think about some of your comments. And in the process, I read some more articles regarding Phelps.

I will just use my experience as my base, that way all will understand it is my perspective and nothing else. No judgement, no argument, just me. …cool? Cool.

When a group of people put out press releases or gather on the street to celebrate the death of soldiers and the death of children (as they did with the Arizona shootings and the Sandy Hook shootings) all we can gather from that is that they are a small hate group. (I intentionally left out their celebrations of the death of gays).

When they use vile language (profanity on both their placards and their lips), they are speaking in a manner God does not condone. I could go on but I won't. There are others who can speak more deliberately than me and I easily concede to them.

But as far as giving legitimacy to such hate filled beliefs- no. It has happened so many times in so many places throughout the world that to give such credence is to condone the mass murders and genocide of yesteryear and today. And make no doubt, if the articles and information are true, Phelps would have been the first to place the noose around a gay man's neck (that's my neck-). He wanted death for gay people. So, wishing death on someone who is no different than you (other than they privately love or sleep with someone of the same sex- or not-) is not biblical. It just isn't.

His "church" should not even be considered a church. It is a part of a dysfunctional family's compound with approximately 20 members at the present time. Most sociologists consider it equivalent to a "clan family", in that they function within their own small, small world of twisted reality. At times venturing out to spew their hatred just to make themselves that much more righteous than the rest of us and to declare that they are the only church.

I would definitely hesitate to consider him a sincere Christian and man of God. At least by Biblical standards.

Anyway, to show that this line of thought causes death to many innocent people, we only need to think of the Salem Witch Trials of 1692-93. Same wonderful principle of biblical scholarship and self-righteousness and hate still applies.

You know a man by the fruit he bears. What fruit did Phelps offer to help feed a hungry world? He is dead. The world is hopefully a far better place for not only gay people but for the families of dead soldiers, dead children, tornado victims and so it goes.

Maybe the family compound will disappear into the earth as the family cottage did in the movie "Carrie". Just maybe.

And mods- this response can be deleted at anytime if deemed inappropriate. I just needed to say hate is hate is hate. And innocent people are harmed and die from such.



Edited by ThisMan (03/22/14 01:28 PM)
Edit Reason: to clarify thoughts
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#462978 - 03/22/14 02:00 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 470
Loc: UK
I am sorry guys, I am a gay atheist, I completely failed to make my point. The point I was trying to make is that his horrific theology is as legitimate as that of anyone else, yes it is horrific but it is based on his faith and his interpretation of the bible. He may be an embarrassment to more enlightened christians but a christian he was, I watched enough of him to know he knew his bible inside out. He had the same right as anyone else to his version of gods work as he saw it. There is no objective evidence to say his theology is less reasonable or legitimate than that of any religious leader of any faith. An ideology based on a book believed to be the word of god can lead anywhere. If faith based morality deserves respect, there is as much evidence for his version of gods will as there is for any ayatollah, rabbi, pope, pastor or anyone else who through faith and a holy book decides what gods will is. Respect for faith has to cover all faiths however mad, bad or repulsive they are.
Hope I have made myself clear now, I am really sorry for being so clumsy, I wrote this in a hurry to try and clear up my mistake.

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#462979 - 03/22/14 02:39 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
Hi, Rustam -

There is room for open-minded thought on this. I appreciate your perspectives, and respect your attempts at a reasoned discussion. You are gay, yet can speak with eloquence about a group that would hate you. You are an atheist, yet speak respectfully of biblical scholars. So you have a remarkable potential for unbiased, balanced thought. However, I believe the precepts of your arguments are fundamentally flawed. Have you looked carefully at Westboro?

Calling parishioners in the Westboro Baptist Church just another religion is like calling Nazis in a 1940's Munich beer hall just another political party, or like calling the guy who molested me my first boyfriend. Hate groups and criminals often are wolves in sheep's clothing. As far as I know, Westboro has never been accepted as a denomination of any established church. It has, however, been identified as a hate group by established civil rights organizations.

Please visit GodHatesFags.com and look carefully. Go to the other linked Westboro sites, many of which have "hate" in the url. Look at the picture galleries of church members holding signs saying things like "Pray for More Dead Soldiers." Then explain how a biblical scholar can build a church on "hate" when the bible carries the word "love" ten times more.
_________________________



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#462980 - 03/22/14 03:12 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
Quote:
If faith based morality deserves respect


And what if it doesn't?

Anybody can believe anything, so you should only respect people based on their behavior - "Faith without works is dead."

Or as a great speechwriter once put it: "We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before."


Matt
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#462981 - 03/22/14 03:18 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Rusty563 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 200
Loc: Anywhere, USA
Hi guys,

I wanna chime in. My father is a Baptist preacher whom I do respect as a "man of God" only because I never witnessed him abuse scripture to suit his own agenda. That said, our relationship sucked unless I was singin' for Jesus. Long story there and contradictory to being Christ-like.

Anyway, he once made a point about Christians who cherry pick scripture and how you can use it to create a whole religious movement. To paraphrase, he said "Judas hung himself" and "go thou and do likewise." Two different scriptures contorted and used out of context to suit a demented religious campaign.

I've seen so much hate and vile abuse hurled at people under the banner of God (remember Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority?) that my own heart has changed towards those who have been made the targets of God's alleged wrath. My love and compassion has deepened. I believe that people who call themselves Christians and ignore Christ's first call are liars. There is a scripture that says (paraphrased), "if you say you love God and hate your brother then you are a liar and the truth is not in you."

Okay, Sunday School lesson over. Turn to to page 444 in your hymnal and sing along!

Love, Rusty
_________________________
There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you - Maya Angelous
Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed - Martin Luther King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qF_qbaWt3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOkMSf-F14

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#462982 - 03/22/14 03:37 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Rusty563]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
@Rusty -

+1 - thanks for sharing that. I think your father's perspective is a wise one. I am a very secular person, and never go to services or read the bible. My partner doesn't go to services either, but does read the bible. He once had me - a Jewish boy - read the Gospels, and I was at points in tears with it's beauty and simplicity. Seeing the heartbreaking actions at Westboro also bring me to tears - but more like dirty socks would do.

@Rustam -

It is important to say that we are all here for each other, and there is room for disagreement. I take no offense with what you say and am happy you can feel safe enough here to express your perspectives. I respect them, but I question them never-the-less.
_________________________



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#462992 - 03/22/14 10:34 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1536
Loc: New England
Okay, so we've pushed two of our hottest buttons: sexuality and religion, both of which are very personal, and for many, self-defining. Tempers flared and now seem to have calmed. Now we can agree on just a few things we can share.
  • Gratitude to live in a country where the right to express even the most vile, hateful views are protected.
  • Gratitude to live in a country where the right to express our spiituality (or not) as we see fit is protected.
  • Gratitude to live in a country that is finally begining to accept variances in sexuality that were once deemed unacceptable.
  • Gratitude that while there will always be evil in the world, as long as good people do not stay silent, the evil will not prevail


Be well,

Jude
_________________________
Well, I won't back down
No I won't back down
You can stand me up at the gates of hell
But I won't back down.
Tom Petty

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#462996 - 03/22/14 11:44 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Jude]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
@Jude - Amen. I thought I would add, however, that I did not perceive much in the way of flaring tempers. Strong opinions, perhaps, but I thought it was a civil discussion on a hot topic, and congratulate everyone here for keeping it balanced. I learned a lot reading the comments here.

I even learned something from Fred Phelps - in his extremes of hatred, he showed where darkness leads. We all have darkness to some extent. And while it must have been rough to be on the receiving end of his vitriol, I cannot imagine the torture of being him and living a life pickled in hatred. But he's gone now, and I should probably heed the advice of Thomas Jefferson: When the Lord puts His hand on a man's shoulder, I take mine off. If there was any final judgment on old Fred Phelps, I suspect it has been done.

And maybe Keith can put this in Seussian prose similar to his great post here, but if there is reincarnation, maybe Fred will come back as a gentle house cat.
_________________________



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#463000 - 03/23/14 12:23 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1536
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
... I thought it was a civil discussion on a hot topic, and congratulate everyone here for keeping it balanced.
I stand corrected. Perhaps I've just come to expect tempers to flare around these subjects. You guys are evolving so fast, I can't keep up!

Be well,

Jude
_________________________
Well, I won't back down
No I won't back down
You can stand me up at the gates of hell
But I won't back down.
Tom Petty

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#463002 - 03/23/14 12:46 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
I feel if there's anywhere on Earth where this topic is to be brought up, it should be here.

Trigger warning for severe child abuse (attempted murder?) by one Fred Phelps:

http://www.blank.org/addict

Quote:
Mark Phelps feels nauseated whenever he remembers that night. He was hit over 60 times and his brother, Nate, over 200 with a mattock handle. Nate went into shock. Mark didn't. A boy who became a compulsive counter to handle the stress, Mark counted every stroke. His and Nate's. While their father screamed obscenities and his brother screamed in pain. Every 20 strokes, their mother wiped their faces off in the tub. Nate passed out anyway. That was Christmas Day.

Though he believes he should be the next governor of Kansas, Pastor Phelps has never believed in Christmas. A mattock is a pick-hoe using a wooden handle heavier than a bat. Fred swung it with both hands like a ballplayer and with all his might. "The first blow stunned your whole body," says Mark. "By the third blow, your backside was so tender, even the lightest strike was agonizing, but he'd still hit you like he wanted to put it over the fence. By 20, though, you'd have grown numb with pain. That was when my father would quit and start on my brother. Later, when the feeling had returned and it hurt worse than before, he'd do it again. "After 40 strokes, I was weak and nauseous and very pale. My body hurt terribly. Then it was Nate's turn. He got 40 each time. "I staggered to the bathtub where my mom was wetting a towel to swab my face. Behind me, I could hear the mattock and my brother was choking and moaning. He was crying and he wouldn't stop." The voice in the phone halts. After an awkward moment, clearing of throats, it continues: "Then I heard my father shouting my name. My mom was right there, but she wouldn't help me. It hurt so badly during the third beating that I kept wanting to drop so he would hit me in the head. I was hoping I'd be knocked out, or killed...anything to end the pain. "After that...it was waiting that was terrible. You didn't know if, when he was done with Nate, he'd hurt you again. I was shaking in a cold panic. Twenty-five years since it happened, and the same sick feeling in my stomach comes back now..." Did he? Come back to you?

"No. He just kept beating Nate. It went on and on and on. I remember the sharp sound of the blows and how finally my brother stopped screaming... "It was very quiet. All I could think of was would he do that to me now. I could see my brother lying there in shock, and I knew in a moment it would be my turn. "I can't describe the basic animal fear you have in your gut at a time like that. Where someone has complete power over you. And they're hurting you. And there is no escape. No way out. If your mom couldn't help you...I can't explain it to anyone except perhaps a survivor from a POW camp."
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#463018 - 03/23/14 09:54 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Rustam]
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
Rustam- my friend, we need no apology. I understood exactly where you were coming from with your statements. I agree with you that there is really no standard for determining who is sincere in their religious beliefs and who is not, or any belief as far as that is concerned.

Phelps believed as strongly in his convictions evidently as I have become in mine, and even my spiritual beliefs differ with my others here on MS.

Matt,- I read the excerpt of the interview with Phelp's son you posted. Stories of this nature seldom cause the emotional response I experienced when I read his words.

Perhaps it was because we are all aware of how cruel his father was and the fact that we have seen his hate unfold for all the world. I teared up and felt this man's heartbreak. A mother who was so afraid she wouldn't stop the abuse or take the children out harm's way, and a father who so hated his own offspring that he was willing to take them to death's door. Who can help but cry?
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#463024 - 03/23/14 01:03 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Rusty563 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 200
Loc: Anywhere, USA
I just read the story about Nate and Mark Phelps, and, as a preacher's son, not to mention a survivor of sexual abuse (not by my father), my heart breaks for them because though my father became a Christian when my brother and I were young, his violent physical abuse never changed. Most of his abuse was heaped on me than my brother (in a moment of repentance he confessed that he just didn't like me).

Consequently, I grew up desperate for male love and attention and THAT made me an easy mark for the monsters that saw my vulnerability and either attempted or succeeded in violating me.

My point being is this: alleged Christians that abuse innocents are the most ungodly people to walk this earth and turn more people away from the possibility in believing that there is a loving God, than setting His example.

Who can deny that Mother Theresa was one of the most beautiful examples of the love of Christ. Billy Graham? A preacher who never brow beat people into believe and trust (btw - did you know that he kept himself guarded from ever being caught alone with a woman?). And then there's that hateful, violent, ungodly, and his ilk, Phelps.

Oh, my brothers, my belief and disbelief is my own business, but I'm speaking out from the perspective of a man who, from the age of 9, was immersed in Christian life and have seen the worst and best of that community. Albeit it has left me a bit jaded and cynical but I care so much for you that I'm will to risk your understanding or admonishment.

(((you)))

Love, Rusty
_________________________
There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you - Maya Angelous
Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed - Martin Luther King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qF_qbaWt3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOkMSf-F14

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#463032 - 03/23/14 02:18 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
(((Rusty)))

Our stories aren't all that different. Like the phrase, "my belief and disbelief is my own business".... cause it is.
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#463060 - 03/24/14 04:28 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 407
Loc: west coast
I will try this again

One of my very best friends is a minister. perhaps the kindest guy i know. I respect him as a man, as a friend and i respect his right to believe whatever he wishes and practice whatever faith he feels calls him. I respect everyones right to express their opinion on this site but just as i don't agree with all the perspectives, i also do not agree that someone's faith should be respected cart blanche.

The whole point of Phelps life and death is the he was Right!

Right and entirely justified to spew his hate with full scriptural references chapter and verse. He followed his faith to the max! God in the bible is about hate and jealously with a love caveat in only for those willing to suspend rationality and "believe". You can be a child rapist and accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and saviour and bobs ur uncle you get past St. Peter at the gates. Live a righteous life in the service of others without Christ and your SOL. How is this morality. How is Phelps wrong?

Trigger warning:
Like a survivor who is told " this is how I show love"," this is how men show men to be men". "This is the rod of god" as the priest rapes my fellow survivor who was six year old, it's coercion at its most evil. Threatening a child with the possibility of eternal damnation with the only crime of not believing seems nothing less than cruel. There is no question there are messages of love for your fellow man, but this is in no way unconditional. Survivors compartmentalize the abuse and the effects for self protection , the faithful compartmentalize their religious beliefs from any real sense of rationality.

The bible , Koran , Book of Mormon , bagavadgita and watchtower are all equal in their complete and utter lack of a grasp of reality. There is no way they cannot be mutually exclusive. So either one is right, which is not possible to determine or all are wrong which is entirely more likely.

As I told my children , teach one religion you indoctrinate , teach many you in innoculate !
So you can pull this verse or that to justify whatever viewpoint you want but they all share no basis in reality or rationality. None!

It's not that religious people aren't intelligent cuz of course they are. Their religion is almost always based on where they were borne and what denomination their parents follow, trying being a muslim in utah or a jew in mecca. They have been made to swallow so much fallacy as survivors were made to swallow the concept that just because if may have felt good, it was ok . Both are child abuse both are adult abuse.

So I respect men for who they are based on what their actions are, not their rhetoric. I have a childhood friend who is a wealthy mennonite. He contributes $50 G's a year to a mexican orphanage, he never told me, i found out through a mutual friend. That is a class move worthy of respect.

The big fallacy Phelps and frankly any religion peddles is the promise of eternal life which is entirely based on a fear of death. Living in Fear is mostly what survivors strive to get over. The fear of what others think of you, the fear of openly and honestly expressing your sexuality without having to feel shame, the fear of if they know who you really were deep down they would hate you. Fear of just being accepted for who we are. All this fear is paralyzing. How many of us lived frozen lives for so many years? The reality , the true reality is all we have is TODAY. Fred phelps wasted his today's using scripture to justify his fag self hate. Moreover, Fred phelps expected that we should respect his myopic world view. That is ludicrous.

I will never respect something people are expected to believe without evidence , common sense or reason. Religious apologists will justify slavery (it was indentured survitude or the spoils of war " , or anything else that makes them squirm to push the square peg into the round hole. Slavery and many other things scripture is used to justify is wrong when its wrong. period.

Phelps' sad corpse is now a sorry addition to the scrapheap of self haters that use religion to justify their vitriol. He joins the likes of the exodus crew, ted haggard, markus bachman and so many more self flagellates stretching back to the point in time where being just who you were was no longer acceptable because of a "better way".

Halley didn't discover Halley's comet but he used Isaac Newton's mathematical principles to predict the return of the comet, at the exact time several years after his death and at the precise moment in the sky where it would appear. Has any religion, prophet, seer made such predictions since the bronze age? Were any talking snakes, burning bushes, desert Jinns, or spontaneous conversion into salt pillars, transubstantiations or any other so called miracle of any type anywhere able to be corroborated and shown to be anything other and either a myth or natural forces? Before Newton, the heavens were said to move by the direct hand of a force greater than ourselves in a way past our ability to understand. The great watchmaker in the ski. Then came the law of gravity and the great unknown became as all things are, natural forces moving inanimate objects. Then again , it could just be about the pickets marching up and down across from the funerals of fallen heroes.

As a survivor, the need for factual , objective information on how to deal with a wounded psyche is so important. One can begin to understand that the compartmentalization of those experiences and feelings was incredibly detrimental to our development as men. We can chose to keep it that way or begin to slowly understand, what we once thought was "just the way we are" was part of the shame we felt for what we went through. Its the same process for the Fred Phelps's severe biblically based hatred. It is part of the mental gymnastics we primitive humans still do. When asked how he explains his devoutly religious beliefs in the face of being the so-called father of the human genome project, Francis Collins just simply says he doesn't think about those two things at the same time.

One of the most self evident things i have come to discover on this road to recovery is that compartmentalization of any kind is not conducive to an easier route, it just isn't.

To paraphrase Shakespeare i just have to add that All those WBC placards, signs and posters are perhaps the greatest example of
"HE DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH" the world has ever witnessed.


Edited by 1lifenow (03/24/14 04:32 AM)
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#463067 - 03/24/14 08:15 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 703
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Well, I will try this again, too.

The point of my original response to Rustam was that this is not set up to be a spiritual or religious forum, but gay/bi/trans issues. However, it has turned into a total religious discussion. 1Lifenow, I agree totally with your post, however it does not reflect who I am spiritually. And, I'm not interested in pursuing that here. The reason I am hesitant about religious discussions is they cannot comply with any logic because they have totally to do with what cannot be seen, but implied.

I am a very spiritual person, remain connected with divine energy most of the time, and spirituality is a major part of my life. Not religion. However, everyone has their own take on it, and religions have centuries of beliefs poured into their congregants. So, I don't see any way to have easy conversations around religions. I personally have great difficulty with religions. They all pretty much require a conduit for a connection to divine energy--pastor, priest, rabbi... I don't buy it.

So, given that everyone is speaking a different language, communication is difficult. I would like to just say that energy of hatred is something I find horrifying to institutionalize. I grew up the son of a Southern Baptist Preacher/retired marine, and was horrified at the hatred and damnation that spewed from the pulpit. Both my parents also sexually abused me, physically abused me, and tortured me.

Now, I don't judge them any more. The were/are very, very damaged people, and could only work with who they are/were based on their own experiences.

Whenever religion comes into the picture, it seems the conversation always somehow devolves into good and evil. Good and evil is simplistic for me. I choose a model of illness and health. Illness and health can leave out the emotionalism and judgment central to religions and focus on what actually can promote health and love in the world, IMHO.

So, I have to put my two cents in because if I don't, I imply that I don't have feelings on the issues here, when I do. I have no investment in anyone seeing the world as I do, and I do not judge in any way how anyone else views the world, creation, religions, etc. But, I do intend to make space for ME in the world.

Sending you all love and good will,

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

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#463075 - 03/24/14 11:19 AM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: don64]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
I find strong points of agreement with both 1LifeNow and Don. While I am not religious in the sense that I do not participate or affiliate with an organized effort, I respect others who do - sometimes very deeply. To me, just because I don't "believe" does not define others as wrong or misled. A truly devout person is only following a different journey to the heart than I am.

I think that Don asks a valid question about why we are discussing religious issues here. My answer would be that nothing exists in a bubble. The WBSCC (Westboro Baptist So-Called "Church") is a good example. They seem to exist solely to condemn the effects of a "fag nation" along the lines of their interpretation of the scriptures. I think the conversation is worth having, because I suspect the religious community and the gay/bi/trans community share the common struggle of fighting for understanding and acceptance.

Railing against religion in a general way to me is dangerously close to the kind of persecutions we as gays and lesbians often endure - the lack of any effort to exercise deeper insights, the summary dismissal of another's journey through the ineloquence of rash, superficial judgments. They come out as hurtful soundbites with little intellectual depth. I see it on both sides of the fence, and the paradox is that it seems that each side is blind to anything other than their own sensitivities. Maybe that's what happens when one is embattled and defensive. The great challenge to either community is to reach outside their own limited perspectives. The native American proverb Do not judge another until you have journeyed for two moons in his moccasins is simple and true.

I would argue that is precisely where Fred Phelps failed. He railed against gays indiscriminately, for whatever reason, unable to listen to any other perspective than his own. If anyone deserved equal treatment right back, it would certainly be easy to argue that case for Mr. Phelps. But a better statement is to act from the heart. There are good and bad people in the Church. And there are good and bad people in the gay community. When we focus on the bad ones and let them define our perspectives, we neglect the good people. That's just another form of abuse. What others say about us does not define us - it is what we say back to them that does...

.............

If we were reincarnated after death and Fred Phelps showed up at my doorstep as a skinny cat, I would take him in. I'm such a sucker for redemption.

Eirik

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#463082 - 03/24/14 01:24 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 703
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Eirik,

I love your post. "What others say about us does not define us - it is what we say back to them that does..." is a level of maturity I aspire to.

Thanks,

Don


Edited by don64 (03/24/14 01:25 PM)
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

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#463084 - 03/24/14 01:46 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
Rusty563 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 200
Loc: Anywhere, USA
Possible triggers -

I tried to come up with so many ways to put my 2 cents in again but everything I thought of to say started a trigger so I may drop from this thread but suffice it to say that I confided to a close pastor friend of mine and my wife's what happened to me and, because I went willingly with the teacher that raped me and the john that paid me for a bj, I had sinned. I was devastated. But! According to him, I didn't commit a sin with the priest that raped me.

I believe that if there is God in heaven that thinks my rapes were sinful acts like Fred Phelps, then He is not a God that I wish to worship. Where was He when I was being groomed? Where was He when I was seeking answers about my sexuality? Where was He when I was made into somebody's bitch? Hmmmm?

I've agonized for years about my sexuality. I begged and pleaded with God to forgive my "sin" and I never felt any peace. I did get married but It wasn't until 4 years ago, after decades of depression, rage, attempted suicides, hospitalizations, addiction, and misdiagnosis' that I found out that I was a victim of SA and NOT a sinner and that I have PTSD because of the abuse.

I don't know if this disclosure is on point or not. It was just as much as I could say without bottoming out. Luckily I have an appointment with my therapist in an hour or so.

Rusty


Edited by Rusty563 (03/24/14 01:47 PM)
_________________________
There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you - Maya Angelous
Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed - Martin Luther King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qF_qbaWt3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOkMSf-F14

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#463576 - 04/02/14 08:12 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Rustam]
On The Fringe Offline


Registered: 09/21/13
Posts: 326
Loc: Southeast USA
He still used his faith as a club to beat people.

There has to be a balance. Hate the sin and love the sinner. He missed that. I think the vast space most bible reading people gave him is a testimony to his strange weaving of fragments of scriptures into a tapestry of hate.
_________________________
I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here.

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#464025 - 04/12/14 11:30 PM Re: Fred Phelps is Dead [Re: Chase Eric]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1204
Loc: New York

So much hate in one person. Just short of actually killing and torturing people I would rank him up there with other megalomaniacs such as hitler and stalin. The hate that came forth from that person and who led a few high level haters in his cabinet and spewed down hate to a generation of followers just as hitler brought up a generation of haters through his youth programs, this hateful, vile person tried to do the same thing and we are so lucky he was not able to succeed.

I think it is very hard to compare someone to the atrocities of people like Hitler and Stalin but I am not trying to compare the atrocities but the hate behind them. It is very possible to compare the hate that spewed from all their mouths.

With the help of politicians, activists, most Americans and the Patriot Guard Riders he was basically shut down and with it I hope his cult followers also follow suit. I do not wish anyone of them dead but their existence is really worthless, unacceptable to civilized populations and totally irrelevant.

There is no love loss of love for this kind of trash. I think this quote sums up my feelings.

Originally Posted By: Eirik

.............


Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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