Newest Members
rhyoung, Jefferson22, OxfordArms, Anony_mous, Drew6991x
12367 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
gryffindor (67), KevinSweeney (57), latinflavor815 (52), latin_flavor_815 (52), RTMark (33), sabooka (35), southpaw10 (46)
Who's Online
4 registered (Obi, 3 invisible), 17 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12367 Members
74 Forums
63553 Topics
444026 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#461919 - 03/02/14 09:10 PM Handling all this BS from the past.
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
Hey Guys,

I have been on the boards from time to time, nothing special just seeing if I can get a better understanding of everything. I am in therapy, and have seen many great changes which I am proud of. Though, I do see the past coming into play at times too. At a simple high level, I came from a very physical and mentally abusive home. I was sexual abused by more then I care to admit too. The details I don't feel are real important to the board right now. And, on top of all this I am a gay male.

In the big picture of everything I know I have more then enough shame that it could fill a football field, and it is this shame is a demon when it comes to the past and moving forward. You may be asking how I know this. I have done tons of reading and work to becoming more healthily mentally. I recently heard a quote which really opened my eyes greatly! Which made me make some major changes in my life. So much so that I don't have any friends anymore. It is funny people have told me over the years that I give great advice, and you know what I have because I have been doing the work to fix myself. Because of this quote, I noticed that many people where leaning on me. Friends and a business partner who where manipulating spouses, friends or others and acting in a way that I would never because of my past. So, I had many frank conversations with them and told them I could not be part of their lives anymore, because what they are doing today is what I grow up with and I could not be associated with it. I truly learned that I am a people pleasure, I will do what ever I can to have people like me of course with in reason, yet others don't do the same for me.

So the reason for my post, I know I have buried greatly many things that have happened to me. So much so that I can't even be with them to feel the emotions. And this has been the same experience in therapy. I am trying to tap into them, wondering if I write in the 3rd person if that would help. Basically looking at my life as a movie and writing what I feel for that poor child that had these experiences. Has anyone tried doing such?

One thing I do know, is I have TONS of shame for my past, which I know in my mind is not my fault but my body doesn't know that, and also for being gay.

Post by 1lifenow really opened my eyes to it, and today at the gym, I truly fault my body reacting. There where a few people there who I have interest in and clearly they do to in me, but I have this look on my face of stay the hell away from me, I could see it in the mirror and feel it in my body. My heart was racing and I was shaking so much. Totally crazy!

I know that this is going to be part of me until I get past the shame, but I am at a loss on how to do it. Even when I am in therapy and we try to look into, I get this fog, and overwhelming sense of danger which is crazy.

So if anyone has some insight on how they did such, I would be happy to hear. Because this is not living. Christ, I recently adopted a dog(8 months ago), which I have wanted for years yet I feel I don't have a connection to her at all, and it bugs me.

Thanks guys, looking forward to the insight so I can hopefully get past this.

Quote I was referencing -

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ~Albert Einstein

Sorry for any grammar issues, it is really hard for me to put this in black and white.

-

Top
#461926 - 03/02/14 11:21 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
JayBro Offline


Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 250
Loc: Germany
Have you ever read the book The Velvet Rage? It is one of my favourite and tremendously helpful for gay men seeking to improve their approach to life.
_________________________
,,Nun ging es immerzu, weit, weit bis an der Welt Ende."

Top
#461929 - 03/02/14 11:25 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
Jaybro yes I have that is where I learned greatly, all the shame that I am harboring. Finally was able to give a term to it.

Top
#461934 - 03/02/14 11:51 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 406
Loc: west coast
Love your name standing strong!

Sorry to hear the shame keeps you frozen, I understand that prolonged prisoner in chains emotion. Without knowing why, we allow a soul crushing sense of inadequacy to somehow rule us. It doesn't have to.

If it's ok to ask what was the post that "opened your eyes"?

Shame is such bullshit, I am not sure where that sense of danger you feel is coming from as you are working through it. All I can say is that for me it took mostly understanding that I am entitled to feel what I feel without the judgement. Not from any sense of what others will feel about me, or expectations of bullshit societal rules that have no business meddling into my sexuality and what truly makes my heart sing. I didn't "want" to be gay, it's not easy. But in the end it's harder suppressing some that when finally allowed to be unbridled, unflinching and un-apologetic, is so effing fabulous! How can that be shameful?

Lose fear and you lose shame.
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

Top
#461983 - 03/04/14 06:08 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Standingstrong,

My experience at 64 is there is a natural process at work in me all the time. It has taken me decades to understand this, and most of the pain in my life was due to simply not understanding what was going on with myself. So, it takes a great deal of trust in oneself to just trust the process. My system naturally surfaces what is ready to be dealt with when it can be dealt with. I just began remembering sexual abuse from my mother last year at age 63. Some really bad shit went down with me, and it just took until last year for all of me to be ready to handle it.

I understand a lot about working through shame about being gay. What I have to say about it is that it was all learned, and it's not true. Part of living is taking what we have been taught and accepted as true, and examining it with a PERSONAL critical eye. Just because a lot of people say something is true does not make it true. Your truth is something you will come to for yourself.

Sending you love and good will.

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#461985 - 03/04/14 07:16 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
Hey strong

Your eyes are opening- and you are not hiding.

Inspiring.

You are starting to see things clearly and fearlessly- that is the driving engine of recovery and healing.

Separating myself from the shame and messages that were inflicted upon me was liberating. It still is a practice I continue to reap rewards from.

And owning my choices and behavior - however difficult that may be- makes me stronger and helps me do better and make better choices.

All of this honesty helped me see how my choices and behaviors as an adult really reactivated and re- energized the shame about my sexuality and who I thought I was - I had to stop reinflicting this damage and start a new path.

So keep moving forward and shedding the past so you can claim your life.

"I am not who I was. I am becoming who I was meant to be."

The truth WILL set you free- even if it feelsike hell first. wink
_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

Top
#462048 - 03/04/14 11:13 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 470
Loc: UK
I agree with Mountainous B.that your eyes are opening. The start of sanity is surely seeing that what we are doing over and over again is not working and that it is time to try something new.

I have become less of a people pleaser and helper, I am better now at accepting help form others. Growing up in my family I felt shame about my needs as they were mostly ignored or ridiculed so I tried to not have any, meeting the needs of others felt more comfortable, but of course I ended up feeling resentful when my own needs/wants remained unfulfilled.

On the shame, I found that in therapy it gets healed while dealing with the incidents that produced it, shame being the product of humiliation, it is scary going there, sometimes it feels unbearable and I do get either foggy blurred vision or get body freezing dissociation. I can eventually feel the hurt and pain and bring some compassion and love to the hurting child I was and each time I do it the shame gets a bit less.

As for the dog I guess just taking care of her is the start of connection even if you don't yet feel it, the feeling of connectedness will come as you connect more with yourself.

As for feeling ashamed of being gay, in my head I have no shame about it, I have been with my partner many years and love him, when I am with him I know that my gayness is good. But shame can leak out and infect even the good things of life. Being gay is about who we love, who we are intimate with and who we have sex with, the sexual abuse leaves a legacy of shame and fear around intimacy, so it can feed into our feelings about our sexuality making it harder to ignore the crap that gets thrown at us.

Such are my two cents.

Top
#462074 - 03/05/14 10:49 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
Moutions, I could have not said it better myself. My T, has said in order to heal I have to connect the emotions of the past. It is strange I know the "things" happened too me But I have placed them some where I never have to deal with them mentally but clearly my body does. I think the best example would be getting in a bad car accident, yet knowing it happened but not knowing all the details of it. I think this what has kept me safe.

I am very grateful to the point in which I am at today, but I know there is more out there for me. But, I seem to get highjacked because of fear and shame. Thinking basically that all strangers are bullies and going to cause harm.

In my professional life people are amazed that I am a wall flower when it comes to my personal life. And when it comes to emotions I just can't be with them as I feel it shows weakness.

My shame is connected to two things, the items that where done to me, and my sexuality. My mind knows I didn't deserve the things which happened to me, but my buddy still thinks so and it trues to keep me safe. When there is no need for it.

Top
#464912 - 05/03/14 10:37 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
ScottSmith Offline


Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 26
Loc: CA desert
Hi Standingstrong,
I am reading a book right now, by John Bradshaw,, Healing the Shame that Binds.
It is helping me so much… not done, so I won't tell you how it ends.

A dear friend told me, you gotta love yourself first, you gotta forgive yourself.
In therapy thats what i am trying to do. Put all of me back together the way that best defines who i am, who i want to be and who i will become.

I have been single now for over a year, after a 17 year gay relationship. I was not loving my self back then. And possibly not loving him either (sad but true). Luckily, Today i am finding out that I am ok, and loving my self more. Being single and loving myself is a big step for me.

Any work that brings up the inner child is appreciated. Get that kid and you on the same page… Fun, love, spontaneity should prevail. But we unfortunately live in our heads and not in our heart where our inner child resides.

Time to get rid of those old tapes that in the past used to define us (when we were being abused and had to survivor). We are men now, free to roam and be free. But our Past wants to come along and shade the pathway.
Curses be Gone!!!

Standingstronger… keep on getting stronger and each day you will. Love the man you are. You are lovable. You are worthy. And you have a RIght.

Sorry for being all over the place. Just wanted to share what i felt, and at the moment, being all over the place,, sounded appropriate.

Take care and stand Tall
_________________________
Scott
"You can always hear the laughter but seldom hear a tear fall."
Keith Johnstone

Top
#465133 - 05/09/14 12:28 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York

Originally Posted By: standingstrong
....
So the reason for my post, I know I have buried greatly many things that have happened to me. So much so that I can't even be with them to feel the emotions. And this has been the same experience in therapy. I am trying to tap into them, wondering if I write in the 3rd person if that would help. Basically looking at my life as a movie and writing what I feel for that poor child that had these experiences. Has anyone tried doing such?

One thing I do know, is I have TONS of shame for my past, which I know in my mind is not my fault but my body doesn't know that, and also for being gay......
As far as burying your past I hid my past, so much so that I lost track of what I was hiding. I guess I can call that burying. When I finally faced my past after about 40 years of hiding the shame and guilt kicked in. I also know most of it was not my fault and I'm working through it all as best as I can and on top of that I am also gay.

The emotions will come and that's a beginning to healing and not something to be afraid of. Writing in 3rd person will not help because that 3rd person is you and that person should be guilt and shame free. That boy is you and not some 3rd person. on top of that you were a gay boy and are now a gay man.

As you are here you will be able to work through your past. you will see that the boy that is now in 3rd person is you and then the healing can start in full swing. I also saw that boy in me as a replay of the movie I have seen many times. Since my collapse almost 3-1/2 years ago I finally realize that boy is me and not in the movies anymore, not someone else. I wished he wasn't me but the hiding portion of my life is over and now I can get down to working on the guilt and shame and put my past in it's proper place - the past. I am very far from that goal but I am on my way.

I am sorry you had to come here but you will have a bunch of guys who are ready to help in anyway they can. You will heal but your past will be your past and not some movie replaying over and over together with the guilt and shame.

Read the stories of men that came here for the same reason you came and join in. there are plenty of people who can help. In helping them you will heal yourself, join in as much as you are able.

On top of my hiding, guilt and shame I find that I am also gay. That is something to be proud of and not ashamed of, there should be no guilt associated with that fact.

For me all this is still a work in progress.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465180 - 05/10/14 08:47 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
On The Fringe Offline


Registered: 09/21/13
Posts: 326
Loc: Southeast USA
Great share Jeff.

I love the one line.... There should be no guilt associated with the fact.

That attitude has been a key to moving forward in my life.
_________________________
I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here.

Top
#465186 - 05/10/14 10:37 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Hey OTF

Quote:
That attitude has been a key to moving forward in my life.

There are incidents of my abuse that I can say, like you, has been key to moving forward. The problem I have is that I do drag around the guilt with me on most of my abuse. It's like someone telling me to "get over it" or "it's not my fault", not like turning a switch on or off, that's why I call it a work in progress. I unfortunately don't believe that "no guilt" association at the moment but that's what I'm working towards. It's not an easy thing for me to do but I'm trying as much as I possibly can at the moment.

Thanks for the boost.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465193 - 05/10/14 05:56 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: lapchinj]
On The Fringe Offline


Registered: 09/21/13
Posts: 326
Loc: Southeast USA
Originally Posted By: lapchinj
Hey OTF

Quote:
That attitude has been a key to moving forward in my life.

There are incidents of my abuse that I can say, like you, has been key to moving forward. The problem I have is that I do drag around the guilt with me on most of my abuse. It's like someone telling me to "get over it" or "it's not my fault", not like turning a switch on or off, that's why I call it a work in progress. I unfortunately don't believe that "no guilt" association at the moment but that's what I'm working towards. It's not an easy thing for me to do but I'm trying as much as I possibly can at the moment.

Thanks for the boost.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff


Not the incidents that keep me moving forward, you comment and the attitude of it. That is what has helped me.

I was guilty of being a child easily deceived. I was guilty of seeking shelter with a perp. But not like an adult making a choice with full reasoning power.

I own that I physically responded and even enjoyed it. I'm not guilty of anything though.

Enjoy the weekend. Hope you are doing well.
_________________________
I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here.

Top
#465198 - 05/10/14 10:39 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Hey OTF

Quote:
I own that I physically responded and even enjoyed it. I'm not guilty of anything though.

Yes we have to own what we did like you mention but not the guilt that goes along with it.

The work in progress is to lose the guilt while owning what we did. After getting rid of the guilt we can then proceed to forgive ourselves which Dr. Richard Gartner in his book "Beyond Betrayal" defines as “It's letting go of the sense that the past shouldn't have been any different or better”

Sounds simple and straightforward but I'm already 2-1/2 years in therapy and on meds and I just can't get there yet. I cut, drink, smoke weed, flashbacks, nightmares etc.

Then ..........

Quote:
Not the incidents that keep me moving forward, you comment and the attitude of it.

This is very profound statement and it's what keeps me going, otherwise I would be completely engulfed in my own shit with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465208 - 05/11/14 02:09 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: lapchinj]
On The Fringe Offline


Registered: 09/21/13
Posts: 326
Loc: Southeast USA
Originally Posted By: lapchinj
Hey OTF

Quote:
I own that I physically responded and even enjoyed it. I'm not guilty of anything though.

Yes we have to own what we did like you mention but not the guilt that goes along with it.

The work in progress is to lose the guilt while owning what we did. After getting rid of the guilt we can then proceed to forgive ourselves which Dr. Richard Gartner in his book "Beyond Betrayal" defines as “It's letting go of the sense that the past shouldn't have been any different or better”

Sounds simple and straightforward but I'm already 2-1/2 years in therapy and on meds and I just can't get there yet. I cut, drink, smoke weed, flashbacks, nightmares etc.

Then ..........

Quote:
Not the incidents that keep me moving forward, you comment and the attitude of it.

This is very profound statement and it's what keeps me going, otherwise I would be completely engulfed in my own shit with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff


I guess I see you as a fellow human, a person struggling some, suffering some, but also winning some. You share wisdom and comfort. It isn't about sexual preference to me. It is about one person helping another.

Maybe since I functioned on both sides of the fence for a while it just does not seem a big deal to me.

Sorry to hear you need to cut yourself. I did but it was related to religion. Cut a star in my arm. I was on the bad guys team.. Ha! The things we do to fit in. Who ever thought that sucking a disk when you were 7 would mess you up so much. I think there was much more to it than the act. Of course there was.

The discussions here, for me are about the other stuff, not the penis stuck in my body. The betrayal, lies, deception, false guilt a child can feel.

That was a lie. So what do I do with the lie, now that it is exposed? It feels weird but that is just it for me. Yep. I want to lay in the shit some days, and be a victim, but that is where the choice and help of kind friends helps.

I have felt more help and compassion from gay males and straight females though. I think as straight guys it is still to disgusting to talk about.

Be well my friend. Take care of yourself. You are a valuable contributor to life on our planet smile
_________________________
I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here.

Top
#465218 - 05/11/14 08:54 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Quote:
I am in therapy, and have seen many great changes which I am proud of. Though, I do see the past coming into play at times too. At a simple high level, I came from a very physical and mentally abusive home. I was sexual abused by more then I care to admit too.

I've heard it said many times here on the boards, by my T and and EMDR T who all of them mentioned that you have to relive the shit to rewire the brain in order to break the cycle of pain. once you can look at your abuse you can see that the shame and guilt does not come along with it.

Quote:
I truly learned that I am a people pleasure, I will do what ever I can to have people like me of course with in reason, yet others don't do the same for me.

I am also a people pleaser and will do anything that people should not get on my case or find out what I am. Being here on MS has made me more honest with others and myself. I am still a people pleaser outside of MS but I think that I have bumped up to a different level in that I tell people more often to go fuck themselves if they want to take advantage of me. I say it angrily most of the time which is a way of acting out but the next step is trying to cut out the anger and just very politely tell people to piss off.

Of the thousands of pictures taken of me over 9 years I have a couple of them. I look at them every once in a while and gauge my reaction to them. I want to be able one day to say they are disgusting and that the men and women who took them should drop dead without the shame and guilt eating away at me when I first look at them. When my first reaction is not shame and guilt then I know I'm on my way to healing.

I could not go to a gym just because of shame and guilt. I feel I have it written all over my body. I was always the little girl since I didn't even have a hair on my face till 24. I knew guys that shaved with a chainsaw at 12. I was always the hairless girly boy, always picked on and always thought to be gay. Yes I am gay but they didn't know that. It was only because I was hairless as a teen and alway hung out with my boy friends that they called me a faggot. I never had a girlfriend, but they really didn't know that. That shame is now built in that I'm a little girly boy because I'm still basically hairless. So aside from my gay friends I always did the same as you and give the "eye" to piss off. How do you fix that? I know it isn't any switch that you turn off but rather a process of being yourself. You started that by telling the people around you that they can't be part of your life.

Maybe you can't connect with your dog because he is a people pleaser. The day you can connect is the day you know your healing.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465407 - 05/16/14 06:03 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
Wow guys your replies could have not come at a better time. sorry for the delay in replying Since April 12, dealing with this BS, has been going at light-speed experience memories and flashbacks of MANY things I have not recalled. Finally!!! angry as hell, all for because of the past! Sad, for many many missed opportunities of my youth which I would love to have back. But, I know I need to build going forward not backwards.

Scottsmith - All over the place... not at all you nailed it perfectly everything that has been going on, it is actually what I have been feeling "all over the place" for many years. I have finally noticed that I have some authentic friendships and others not so much. I was always looking for something else to complete me, when in fact how can I do such when I don't love and respect myself, and when I say respect myself it is because I have always had walls up because I could ever let anyone know my secret it could be unsafe, either for the sexual abuse or the fact that I am gay. For once I know the two don't go together. I am starting to learn that many don't take advantage of others. I am was blessed with neighbors who are dear friends wanting to get together on the 12th, which really opened my eyes wider. And truly, I have never done anything special just bee a kind person.

Your book recommendation could have not come at a better time. Thanks I read it and it nailed a lot not only for me but the friendship that I have or had.

Another book which slapped me up side the head was Mike Lew - Victims no More! Wow tears upon tears. Not sadness, not happy tears just something I could relate to. My T, has told me all the book had said be before. But, honestly I don't think I believed her, what would she know. smirk Our session are so much different now. As I type this, I finally notice that I have let me walls down with her... again about time.

Also, have read Beyond Betrayal, which I highly recommend.

Lapchinj - You nailed it too!

I will say I have to disagree with owning it and the enjoyment. We where boys not men! People took advantage of our biology of reaction happening to us, just because our bodies reacted, and we are manipulated doesn't mean we enjoyed it. I think woman have it easier, because this is not a visual reaction which plays with your mind. It has taken me a long time to understand this, because of the fact of being gay, and the comments of "you like it" and "wanted it", messes with ones head.

I will say this my T told me it takes time to undo the damage, mine too great to get into the details.

But, what a PITA to get here.

But will say this has been very freeing these last 4 weeks. For once, maybe just a small amount of time for now, I am relaxed. My body is less tense and stressed that my gym workouts have been better.

It is funny, as I sit here and write this tears run down my face, as I am learning to be free and it doesn't mean you always have to stand guard.

Guys, THANKS for all the replies truly means the world to me!







Edited by standingstrong (05/17/14 09:57 AM)

Top
#465414 - 05/16/14 08:45 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Hey Standing

All those 3 books have always been on my reading list and I think most guys here have read them at some point. They don't have to be read like a novel from front to back but just the pieces that pertain to you.

My T told me last week that being gay would have given me a different outlook being molested by a man than a straight guy being molested by a man. The same thing but visa versa with a woman abuser.

I still can't call papasan an abuser because he was like a real father to me. I really thought that sex was part of the family deal as was the trips to museums, etc and real birthday parties. Living with this guy for 7 years my T asked me "that was some of the best sex I ever had?". This took me by surprise because it was but then he added that I have to realize that it was abuse whether I liked it or not. I'm still working on that statement and it is a work in progress, I still can't see the abuser in the guy I loved.

I'm really glad though that your walls are coming down. That is really super great. I had read those three books over time or at least portions of them and my T told me to keep going back and rereading them. I do, and every time I walk away with a new perspective on my past and present.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465426 - 05/17/14 09:26 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
I think one of the best gifts, in the reading especially, with the Shame that Binds Us is that we all as child suffer from some trauma which creatives bad habits as adults, granted not at the same level as us here. I have share this book with a few friends, who I know it can relate too. One person in particular, I know their parents had unhappy marriage and still do today which his not helped, him. But, he has to see that one his own, I can only say so much.

As, I learn more, and have flashbacks more I realize that the brain is a very power muscle in the body, much more then the heart. It protects us very well, possibly too well.

And the Flashbacks are worth it because I learn to undo the negative.


Edited by standingstrong (05/17/14 09:28 AM)

Top
#465428 - 05/17/14 12:27 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: standingstrong
As, I learn more, and have flashbacks more I realize that the brain is a very power muscle in the body, much more then the heart. It protects us very well, possibly too well. And the Flashbacks are worth it because I learn to undo the negative.

It is true that the mind protects us at times from the pain, hurt, guilt and shame but I can do without the flashbacks which for me brings on numerous nightmares. After a flashback it can take hours to come down from the fear I have and the hate towards me, then the nightmares start in playing games with my mind, fear and emotions.

You are very lucky to be able to "undo the negative" from something that itself is so harmful, maybe one day I will also be able to that but right now I just want them to stop. Right now my flashbacks just remind me of just being a slab of meat used to make money with. My flashbacks and nightmares just keep my abuse current unfortunately.

Keep working with whatever works best for you. I hope you will share more of your healing with us.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465430 - 05/17/14 01:16 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
I totally understand what you mean on the flashbacks, before they started I was with my T for 8 years, then with reading Mike Lews book the words just spoke to me the negatives which I have felt for myself for way too long. A simple comment on my eye color or looks I would discount it as negative. Professional gains, would last 5 secs.

The flashbacks and night terrors, started after I been reading it has helped me rewrite the negative that I had. Example my P would always say he loved me, that was not love that was control over a power child. Honestly, the first time I have ever felt such. Yes, my body was wigged out and shaking like crazy because I actually truly understand I was raped and taken advantage of.

Just this morning, a comment I heard all the time "you greedy bastard. Made me know that I am not at all, yet I believed it.

I guess I look at it as being able to relook at the information I received as a child, and process it as an adult to know if that is a true statement or not.

Trust me none of this makes sense for me, best way I can describe it is knowing all this time that 2+2=4 But then you really learn it is 5.

Hope that helps.

Top
#465502 - 05/19/14 01:13 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
I bought all three books on Kindle. Part of me is afraid to read them because it will hurt too much. I know it is not true, but a part of me fears I cannot handle the depth of my sadness. And, I know reading the books will melt the walls around my sadness. There is such deep sadness in me about the lack of connection to myself and others, and I know the depth of the sadness is because of someplace in me that knows how wonderful it can be to be with others in ways I never have, in other words in a healthy way, and even, perhaps, with a special someone.

I'm actually, kinda, looking forward to reading them. But also scared.

Don


Edited by don64 (05/19/14 01:14 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#465505 - 05/19/14 03:16 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Hey Don

Take it slow. If you start getting triggered then put the book down for a few hours or days. Sooner or later you will be able to read those books a little easier. They are usually very good to help you through your own past.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465506 - 05/19/14 05:04 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: don64]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1648
Don

Take a breath and only venture in when ready. Put them away, and not together. When ready take one out and slowly peruse. If you begin to feel triggered, put the book down. You will know when you are ready.

We all move at different paces. Your mind is still processing the depths of the abuse and any overload may not be helpful.

Being scared is natural--we all have faced this emotion on our journey--the first time we told others, the times we did not tell anyone what happened, the times we moved forward and were feeling good and then a setback-scared to move forward again. Little steps each time.

I hope you find the right to read, because the books give great insight on what we have lived--it reminds us we are not alone in this journey.

I wish you well and I know when you do read you will approach with an open mind.

Keep well

Kevin

Top
#465520 - 05/20/14 04:14 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
Don -

I know how you feel, I have felt the same way myself. As, everyone has said venture when you feel you are ready, and if need be you can stop reading if it becomes too much. I have done it myself, my mind gets to overwhelmed, and I just walk away from the reading. I will say Beyond Betrayal helped to give me good base line of insight, that I bought Victims No More, but it wasn't until two years later that I actually took the time to read it, and it just spoke to me so much so that I am looking for more to learn from.

With this over all healing process I have always had "fear" in the back of my mind, that all the blame was going to be placed on me. But, one thing I have learned that it is not my fault. It was the preps negative comments that where built up in a small child's mind that I have carried all these years. Their guilt, created a vail of shame for I which I have learned I don't own.

I have found that reading has helped give me insight, that my T session are better. Her training coupled with my learning about myself while reading helps build the foundation to a better me.

Hope this helps.

Also, just started reading Healing the Child Within by Charles Whitfield.

J

Top
#465521 - 05/20/14 05:25 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Thanks Jeff, Kevin, and J,


That you responded and show caring is blowing the hell out of my belief that I will die if I actually feel caring. I never talked to another survivor until last fall, and have lived a life of my feelings completely dissociated from myself.

That has been slowly and consistently changing with spending a lot of time online with men with similar experiences. I have known for a good while the substantial damage was done to me in infancy and early childhood, and have been working at getting down to the feeling level of my infant self. In the past few weeks I have learned to consciously hold my infant self in love and safety, while at the same time allowing the feelings of my infant self to surface. The process was brutal early on, but gets a little less scary with time.

What I have noticed is as I do this, my thinking is changing. So, while I have spent my life terrified that any real experiencing of my feelings will kill me, my time with other survivors and my work getting back to the scene of the crime has slowly begun a healing process.

I've noticed these books on post for several months now, but never felt any connection to them. Two days ago I realized they had become important to me, and ordered them on Kindle, as I trust my intuition and "knew" it was time to bring them into my life.

At first reading, I could only get through the forward and acknowledgments of "Beyond Betrayal" before I had to put it down. Many hours later I read some of the first chapter, and the writings on trust really helped me put myself in a context that makes sense to me.

What is happening is that as I create space inside myself for my infant self to grow in safety and love, all of me grows. Whereas before I had to keep my feelings at a great distance from reality, I now NEED the power of your words and the words of these books to melt the defensive walls around my heart. And, yes, I will carefully monitor what is comfortable for me and not do ANY more than is comfortable for me.

I have been crying and crying after reading your posts. First because you responded to me, second because your words indicated you care about what happens to me, and third because I am actually feeling the caring. I want you to know your posts to me matter a lot. The part of me that is screaming "they'll hurt me, they'll hurt me" is beginning to melt, and that you responded so sensitively and so kindly says to me I am making room in my life for sensitivity and kindness to come in.

Thank you.

Don


p.s Also just ordered "Healing the Child Within." Feels like having a lot of comfort food around me.


Edited by don64 (05/20/14 05:31 AM)
Edit Reason: add p.s.
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#465552 - 05/20/14 08:15 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Hey Don

Your doing fine, don't push it just take your time. I also had problems with reading Beyond Betrayal, there were just too many cases that some part of them reminded me of going through those horrors.

It's good that you put it down and you see you're able to pick it up later. Reading is very important, it lets you know that you weren't the only one and that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I find that I can talk to survivors about my shit but not to the general public who have no idea what abuse is. I'm able to be more open with people here because we share the same abusive background in one way or another. Don't worry if you can't talk to the public, talk with us since we are all trying to heal from the same type of disease.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465571 - 05/21/14 02:27 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the support. I shut down my ability to feel so early, and shut down my ability to accurately interpret reality, that I had to slowly live through a lot of soft growing edges before I could deal with approaching my original damaged places as I'm beginning to do in recent months.

Hi J,

I need help with posting etiquette here. I am having a lot of memories and material surfacing for me right now, all having to do with 'all the bs from the past,' but I don't want to hi-jack your thread in any way. The stuff I'm dealing with is heavy duty emotional material also having to do with sexual abuse, physical abuse and torture from both parents in infancy and early childhood. I am not in crisis, but just doing hard as hell work releasing this stuff. This also is not my only resource for doing this work. I started a thread in Female abuse about healing the infant self that got no traction. It's hasn't been easy to pull together interest in infant/early child abuse by both parents with being gay. So, I'm asking for honest feedback and guidance here.

Thanks,

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#465576 - 05/21/14 04:51 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
standingstrong Offline


Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 19
Loc: East Coast.. home of the best ...
Hi Don -

No worries about hi-jacking my thread post away my friend. If you feel more comfortable posting here for feedback received so far, then please do.

Sorry, I can't give feedback on healing the infant self, because I have not gone there yet. I have had flashbacks with regards to that stage but I am not connected with the child inside of me on what has happened. For me, it is like each past day has its own container, but I am doing better in getting to a place where you are. By recalling days, from the "present" and working backwards. I do know I am ticked at my egg donor term I use as she doesn't deserve the word mother.

I am truly trying to find the compassion to love myself in stages of my life, just not there yet.

Sorry, I can't be of more help.

Top
#465580 - 05/21/14 08:01 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi J,

I sure haven't healed my infant self, it's just what I have finally figured out I need to do. I have been completely dissociated from any accurate memories of my abuse. I'm sure my father raped me at age 8. But, I have no memory of it.


The way it has worked for me is that I have a totally detached knowledge of things that have happened to me with absolutely no feeling connection. I still don't have feelings connections to much. I had a dream last night, a horrible horrible dream of about age 1. My father was sexually molesting me. At first it was pleasant, but then he started putting his weight on me, and I became hysterical. I know this was the original event where I shut down totally my ability to feel and am lucky to not have moved into severe autism.

I only got the briefest glances of a memory out of the dream interpretation. I have had pieces of the emotional content from this dream for years. Mainly in the awareness of a claustrophobia that I knew had the ability to cause me psychic death. It is only now with learning to consciously hold my infant self in love and safety while feeling the feelings that I am able to work back to the causes of my challenges. Even so, it was a brutal and disturbing 15 minutes after waking to get my conscious adult self in gear to point out the realities of me not being in danger in the present. And, that I have the ability to learn to not let people with that kind of energy into my life.

My mother systematically terrorized me into submission as a sex toy in infancy and early childhood. She was a monster for an infant. Her deception and manipulation made me pretty crazy. I am learning how to work out of it, but it is slow work.

For me, it involves figuring how to get to the feeling level. Nothing changed for me until I started getting there. And, that only happened during the past year at age 64. So, I am very, very respectful of things that are blocked off. For me, I trust that they will surface when it is safe to do so.

I've had flashbacks for 20 years that I didn't understand at the time, and didn't know to call them flashbacks. But, they were all part of a process of unlocking a hidden me that makes sense to me now and is very useful to me now. If I hadn't received the flashbacks, figuring things out would have been impossible and the information would have been too intense to take at one time.

I've been doing a lot of rage work with my mother. Hitting, punching and kicking pillows. Learning to scream with my hand over my mouth so I don't disturb the neighbors, learning to do a low but intense bass rattle that doesn't hurt my throat too much but does spew a lot of venom at her. It can often take me a few days before I figure out I need to do rage work, because my young self believed she may kill me if I make any noise.

I don't know about anyone else, but support is all I need. I don't really need anyone to do anything. It's just that the effects of abuse can result is such isolation, and being with other survivors who are able to show care and are able to share themselves at a feeling level makes me feel part of a brotherhood, and is nourishing for me.

Thanks,

Don


Edited by don64 (05/21/14 08:05 AM)
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#465722 - 05/23/14 11:29 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: don64]
realalphabetmg Offline


Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 3
Loc: Oregon
You are the superhero of you. Rage work.is better than sex work, a feeling with which I warred as she (madre) spoiled me to mask the abuse. I felt sold to whatever she wanted me to pay for, bankrupt and "too precious" to be saved. Abuse is violence, soul murder in policy. How do we shed ourselves of being carnage? It's time!


Edited by realalphabetmg (05/23/14 11:30 PM)

Top
#465731 - 05/24/14 11:42 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Hey Don

I don't know if this helps but you mention that you don't remember certain acts that you are sure that happened as a infant/young child. The only thing that I remember as a child is being chased into the bathroom or my room in an attempt to escape a beating. I remember running out of the house for a while to escape her wrath. I don't remember anything else before the age of 9.

I divorced my parents when I was 12 years old and basically never saw them again (maybe once a year) till 6 years ago (I'm 63) when I brought them up to live with me. I built an addition to my house so they could have their own apartment and I would be able to take care of them. The only thing that I've learned from this act of kindness is that I still hate them and realize why I divorced them when I was 12. I have become extremely angry at them although I am courteous but blunt and try not to see them.

My mother's favorite story is how at 3 years old I used to stand in front of my her telling her that I want to run away from home. Ha, Ha fuck her. Kind of a sick story for her to laugh about. I constantly think what she can see that's so funny that her only child would want to run away from home.

The first 8 years of my life must have been really bad not to remember the house I lived in, my friends or the neighborhood. I remember the day we started unloading the moving truck here 6 years ago at their new apartment when she told me that she didn't want to move here that it was your father's idea. Right then and there I knew I made the biggest mistake in my life by bringing them both back into my life. They were supposed to pay for the addition but I still haven't seen a penny.

While I don't punch pillows I have now become more of an unhappy puppy because of them. I wish everyday that they would move out and curse myself for bringing them up here to spook my kids and grand kids. They haven't said it but I can tell that they would all find it better if my parents didn't live here. I guess now I've gotten to the point of ...
Quote:
Learning to scream with my hand over my mouth so I don't disturb the neighbors, learning to do a low but intense bass rattle that doesn't hurt my throat too much but does spew a lot of venom at her.
I guess that's my rage work in action.

When I do see them I am kind and gentle which makes me want to puke but I couldn't stand the reactions from her if I piss her off. I would rather walk out of the room when she gets too venomous than stay and call her an asshole.

We used to live a safe distance from one another, she in Florida and me in NY and that worked for 40+ years. Please just never make the same mistake I did. Let the rage fly it will subside sooner or later, I know mine will as soon as they both pass and finally give the grim reaper his due headache for leaving them here so long smile

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465733 - 05/24/14 01:39 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Jeff,

Your honesty is refreshing, and learning not to revisit the scene of the crime has been a lifelong difficulty for me. I divorced my complete family of origin 11+ years ago. It was the only healthy choice I could make. I agree that your blank before the age of 9 is a clue about how horrible it was. I started learning a lot about body memory in my 40's and just naturally followed that. It's the only way I've been able to retrieve this stuff, and the only way for me to move through it little by little.

I am so, so sorry for what you endured and the damage it did to you, Jeff. I have some idea of what that level of damage is and how powerful the need to block that amount of terror is. I'm holding you in my thoughts.

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#465736 - 05/24/14 01:45 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
I agree realalphabetmg, it is time. Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#465742 - 05/24/14 06:56 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: don64
...learning not to revisit the scene of the crime has been a lifelong difficulty for me...
Yes, once the break is made never look back thinking that the situation has changed. My T told me when I told him of bringing my parents up from Florida to me "do you really think that my mother and father have changed?". He said that as a rhetorical question.

My father is 99 and still drives and my mother is 94 and still does her own shopping. It is below their dignity for us to help them in any way. I don't wish them any harm but I would just love for them to move back to Florida and/or just leave me and my family alone.

If you divorced you family then don't feel bad in any way shape or form. Don't look back and most of all don't revisit the scene of the crime. These type of people don't change. I'm just sorry that your perps are still part of your life in your mind, I wish you could forget them and concentrate on your healing from the abuse itself. I'm hoping that you'll be able to get the rage out of your system.

Originally Posted By: don64
.... I'm holding you in my thoughts.
Thanks, that's real sweet, I'm also saving a place in my thoughts for you.

My heart goes out to all the abused, I just wish I had the magic to fix it all up.

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465743 - 05/24/14 07:55 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Thanks Jeff. That's sweet of you also to think of me. I'm learning to hold my infant and toddler selves in safety and love myself in my imagination. When all the internalized terror comes up for me, I am getting better at being able to contain a sense of safety and love for all of me while allowing these early pre-cognitive versions of me to feel safety from me AND not get beaten or suffocated for crying.

Last night I was able to do a new thing. I generally sleep in 2-4 hour periods throughout a 24 hour period. No routine to it. Just when I can sleep. Whenever I begin to get tired all hell breaks loose inside me. It usually takes meds, movies, sudoku puzzles, and overeating before I am able to sleep because I just drop.

Last night I realized that getting tired disables my defenses against feeling my early terror, and all my meds, movies, sudoku puzzles, and overeating are just a frantic effort to shut myself down. It does work, eventually, but it's really hard on my body. So, instead of going through my long term terror neutralizing routine last night, I was able to just send waves of love and safety to my early selves, let them know they were safe while letting them scream and cry all they wanted, and then after a few minutes "all of us" went to bed and got 5 good hours of sleep. A major breakthrough for me. This kind of work is very new for me, but early results are that it produces changes in my thinking in all aspects of my life. Learning how to do this was a brutal process at first, but it is getting easier.

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#465744 - 05/24/14 08:47 PM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1196
Loc: New York
Hey Don

That sounds great to be able to do that and I hope you can get into a routine where you have no trouble doing it. I never thought of being tired could also start my mind from going back to those days, it's just that during any down time of after work I get hit by those memories like a train.

I was abused from age 9 until I escaped into the USAF at 18-1/2. I've been running away from that kid who is me for 40+ years. Like you but instead of eating and stuff I've been doing a combo of drugs, drinking and cutting. That has so far been the only way I can get away from myself unfortunately.

I was prostituted starting at the age of 12 and had 2 very loving and close friends who were also in the game along with my judo instructor. I loved my life but hated what I had to do to keep the part of my life I loved. This is the reason why I have to get away from that kid who is me. My childhood as I knew it revolved around sex, torture, beatings, etc. In order to keep my friends and the happy parts of my life I had to do things I am ashamed and guilt filled. Cutting takes the pain away instantly and the drugs and drink take that kid away.

My T and I are trying to get me to the point where I can do like you are now trying to do, love my childhood self. I wish all the magic in the world for all of us here to get to a point of loving your childhood self.

Thanks for that post Don, thanks for the love

Peace, Rainbows, Love, Healing & Hope
<3 XOXO
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

Top
#465757 - 05/25/14 03:00 AM Re: Handling all this BS from the past. [Re: standingstrong]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 684
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Jeff,

You're definitely welcome.

Sending you love and support.

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.