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#46049 - 06/26/03 11:20 PM THEY don't want to talk about it...........
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Fellows,

I need your wisdom tonight. I have been thinking a lot over the past several days about "stuff", same as you, to be sure. The stuff I've been thinking about is how my family has refused to deal with the truth of their first born being a serial molester.

When he, the perp, first died in 1975, I couldn't hold it in and shortly after his death spilled the beans. No one, not even those siblings who were also abused wanted to discuss it. I had a recollection how about 8 years later, when I tried to bring it up again, my one brother through my mother, threatened physical harm to me.

Now I am beginning ever so clearly to see that the silence has a purpose, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

It is now coming so clear to me that my family has avoided me all these years. Here I thought I was avoiding them. Not surprisingly, I talked with my mother very briefly on the phone yesterday [lives inPA, me in MN] and when she asked me what was new, I told her about how I found this really great organization that supports male survivors of sexual victimization. After I said that, she had a million things to do and couldn' wait to get off the phone. It hit me like a 2x4 across the gut, that this is part of a pattern.

I got the heebie jeebies, cause then the next thing I knew I was thinking, what the hell do these people have to hide? I mean if there was no culpability, then wouldn't a parent who was innocent want to help? I know if my children were in pain, any kind, I would do everything in my powere to reduce it.

What is really making this difficult on top of everything else, I have been seeing how some of you guys speak about your parents as if they were saints. Something in me dies when I hear that, because I gave up on the "perfect parent" expectation long ago. Maybe a lot of the new pain I am feeling today has to do with, finally for the first time, being able to mourn the death of my parents who abandoned me, no.......aborted me, at the time in my life when I needed them the most.

Something is not right here, I feel. I trust your judgments brothers; Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#46050 - 06/26/03 11:37 PM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I do not have a saint parent for father! That much is certain. As of my mother, she is wonderful person, she work two jobs to bring me up in world, and takes care of her mother also, we all lived together in one room for many years. But it is of bother to me. Does she not know what this man does at me all these years? When I leave him, she is not want me to go, because he is a good reputation as coach and she fear I do not succeed so much with another, and she know I love my sport. And I finally tell her of the physical and emotional abuse he do, and it shocks her much, that she never knows that. And I love her so much, and was to try to protect her, but I think, what is this? How in hell you do not know he hurts me? I come home every day with new bruises, some bleeding some time, and what, she thinks this is just from sport? I am sorry, this post is of you, not me. And certain, your family is much different of mine. It is so hard, that your siblings, those who are abused also, that they do not support you of it. It is the silence, I think, more than the hurt and threats, the silence of otherly good people, who give such things as this so much power. I do now know that you will find out of your family, why they are like this. But I am sorry you do not get the verificatioin you need. Please be well, I think of peace of mind for you.

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#46051 - 06/27/03 09:14 AM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
Now I am beginning ever so clearly to see that the silence has a purpose, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
The purpose of the silence is to avoid facing & dealing with the obvious. It is tragically obvious
that your family, Ron, is quite desperate to avoid
it. It's hard to understand how it can be so much easier for even our own family members to just sweep our abuse under the rug. It sure isn't easier for us!

Why are they so desperate?

Perhaps becuz even for family members who were not direct perps themselves, they somehow feel like they enabled the abuse & the abusers; in some cases they did. So they don't want to face that guilt.

Maybe they were abused themselves and facing your abuse means facing theirs and they can't bear to do that.

Sometimes I suspect it's a case of just plain selfish individualistic look out for #1, even to the point of mental illness. Case in point: my mother definitely has NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) of some kind. Of course she was also my prime perp. \:\(

Quote:
What is really making this difficult on top of everything else, I have been seeing how some of you guys speak about your parents as if they were saints. Something in me dies when I hear that, because I gave up on the "perfect parent" expectation long ago. Maybe a lot of the new pain I am feeling today has to do with, finally for the first time, being able to mourn the death of my parents who abandoned me, no.......aborted me, at the time in my life when I needed them the most.
Ron, having been incested and also physically abused by both parents, I empathize with what you're saying & the pain out of which you say it.

Mourning the death of the parents who abandoned & aborted us, who even abused us, is a very painful
thing to do but also very therapeutic, it can help us get the poison out of our systems. We must be sure to have plenty of support to help us in so doing.

Giving up expectations of the "perfect parents" is also a painful reality check. But in our recovery and in our support systems, perhaps we can more properly reparent our own inner children.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#46052 - 06/27/03 10:54 AM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Ron,
This topic is especially sensitive to me. I've struggled so much with these issues.

First, I have to say that I am guilty of talking as though my parents are saints. When growing up in a very conventional home isn't it only to be expected that you would view your parents as saints? They usually are the ones who have all the answers and in a way they are the devine. But I think growing up means that you do have to drop all these notions.

Now, I feel like I've had a hulluva hard time growing up. In in a very difficult way I've retained those old notions of my parents. I still want them to fix me and make me better just like they use to when I was little.

The only problem is that now they seem completely uncapable of extending that help. Maybe the problem is that, while they could meet all my physical needs, they've never been able to meet my emotional needs. For them, it's easier to not deal with an emotional problem. That requires them to be emotional in the first place and that is something they have never been able to do.

When I finally disclosed that I was in a lot of distress I was hurt by their response. It's not that they aren't loving, but they cannot deal with emotional issues. So they nearly avoided the issue of my emotional problems. Like I said, it hurt really bad.

But I'm finally coming around (growing up) to the fact that my parents are not saints and that I have to take care of myself. It's not easy, trust me.

Quote:
I know if my children were in pain, any kind, I would do everything in my powere to reduce it.
I'm glad to hear that you aren't the type to avoid problems and to deal with reality head on. And for that I think you are a saint. Just a thought.
Mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#46053 - 06/27/03 11:12 AM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
i grew up with mixed blessings:

father was compassionate, gentle, quiet, strong....

mother was unbalanced, inconsistent, did the best she could...

my father was absent (to work) and pretty much turned over the raising of the family (seven children) to my mother...

i am quite certain my mother knew i was raped and knew i was beng abused by my brother..but in my house you did not talk about those things.

i do not blame either of my parents for anything...they did the best they could and i was a secretive child...my hypochronriac brother was the squeaky wheel and got all the attention he wanted...i could have done the same, but did not...

my relationship with my parents has improved a great deal now that i am older, but i confess though i love them, communication remains strained and i have always (and probably always will) feel like the blackrabbit of the family...

i have given my mother every excuse in the book for not dealing with the fact of my abuse....and in fact, i believe she was a victim of incest from her father as well...the cycle does perpetuate...

i do not hold any grudges against her and i do not plan on ever broaching the subject...it would only cause more pain...i long ago made the decision to permit her to believe i was healthy and doing well, than torment her into thinking she was a bd mother...i think she went through enough already and i do not need her along for the ride in my own healing...

for me personally, dealing with the things i cannot change is not of value to me...i set boundaries with my family, i visit them, i love them, i pray for them...i do not allow them to hang over me...

i do not know if any of this is useful...i know people think differently about what they need to resolve their feelings of hurt and anger or disappointment and resentment...

~ rabbit


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#46054 - 06/27/03 05:51 PM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
ecb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 205
Ron,

I don't think any of us have the "perfect parents," though I'm sure it doesn't seem that way to someone who is severely lacking parental love and affection.

My mother, for as great as she is and as much as she loves me, is pretty damn far from perfect. She drinks heavily and smokes pot in large quantities. I spent a fair amount of my childhood evenings in bars because I was too young to be left alone. Once I was deemed old enough to be left alone, I would spend many of the nights alone at home instead. I know I talk my mother up a lot here because in spite of her failings she worked hard to raise my brother and I.

I am so incredibly sorry that your parents are not or cannot be more supportive of you. Perhaps they feel too guilty at not stopping your brother. Perhaps it is simply more painful to imagaine that one of thier children would hurt another in such a way.

I suppose my point, long and rambling as usual, is that none of our parents are perfect, in spite of how we may present them. You just got stuck with some on the on the worse end of the spectrum I guess.

Probably not very helpful or inspiraional, but there's my thoughts.

Eric


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#46055 - 06/27/03 07:27 PM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Friends,

I want to thank everyone who was able to share their ideas here. Every one of you havegiven me a powerful message. Even though I have not been able to find resolution for this at this point, I am willing to remain open and listen.

Quote:
It is the silence..... more than the hurt and threats, who give such things as this so much power.
Leosha, I totally agree, and it makes me wonder who I have in this world to truly trust; where can I invest my heart if not in the anticipation of the support of my own flesh & blood?

Quote:
they somehow feel like they enabled the abuse & the abusers; in some cases they did. So they don't want to face that guilt.
Victor, reading this really does soften the blow a little. It seems that right now, gravity wants me to conclude that there was complicity somewhere along the way; however, that would not be fair because at this point I really don't have proof of that. I am able to overlook a lot seen through the lens of empathy and compassion though and you reminded me of that.

Quote:
It's not that they aren't loving, but they cannot deal with emotional issues. So they nearly avoided the issue of my emotional problems. Like I said, it hurt really bad.
Mike, I know this in the back of my mind, but since the wound has been open afresh due to my involvment in this forum lately, I just can't bring myself to talk about the weather anymore. There is so much more to me and my story, and I need to have a deeper relationship with these, my parents, who seem to have stopped growing emotionally. In a way it's like they are already dead, but i keep them propped at the kitchen table just so I can pretend. Maybe this is part of the never-ending road to recovery

Quote:
dealing with the things i cannot change is not of value to me
godsrabbit, having been in recovery for the last 20 years, I know this one well, and thank you for reminding me of it in this circumstance. Maybe I need to pray that I would be able to just keep it as something as simple as a matter of accepting that it is something that I simply cannot change, then perhaps it would be easier to take. Still, the other part of me just doesn't want to lie anymore. Yes acceptance is a big part of it.

Quote:
I don't think any of us have the "perfect parents," though I'm sure it doesn't seem that way to someone who is severely lacking parental love and affection. ...........Perhaps it is simply more painful to imagaine that one of thier children would hurt another in such a way.
Eric, I am sad to say I never remember feeling love, and affection was always found at the back of a hand. Our life was so regimented growing up, that there was no time for fluff. Also, your last statement is very helpful, because it enables me, ultimately, to allow them their humanity, and think better of them.

There has always been so much pain and tragedy in my immediate family because of this. I guess it would just help to be able to know they care enough to try to understand. But like rabbit said, sometimes it is just a matter of accepting that this cannot be changed. May god give me the strength to grow up and through this gracefully, and not start any wars .............

Gratefully,

Ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
#46056 - 06/28/03 01:15 AM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Hello, Ron,

Boy it's amazing to see how we get the help we need when we are willing to ask.

Ain't it great that WE (you, I and all of us hairy creatures) are willing to talk about it?

It's a fucking miracle to me.

I am really impressed by the manner in which you express your dilemna and then remain open to all sorts of different solutions.

I firmly believe that we as human beings will always find A solution---not always very good ones and some very destructive ones--but we always find a way to cope. Some even believe that much mental illness is a form of coping mechanism.

It is beautiful to see how it is possible to find solutions that lead to serenity, healing, growth and self respect. And cause no harm to ourselves and others.

Those are solutions that we can live with--and not die from.

Thanks for letting me see how this process works again. I forget quick and learn slow so need lots of reminders.

Finding solutions that lead to healing; Wow, what a great place we have here.

Glad you're a part of us.

Your friend,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#46057 - 06/28/03 03:39 AM Re: THEY don't want to talk about it...........
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
...... CAUTION - COULD BE TRIGGERING !!!

I've come to the conclusion that my mother molested her little brother.

I have no proof, but here are my deductions.
____________________________________________________________________
She took me to bed with her from the age of about 13, until about 6 months before I went into the Navy at 17 y.o.. I was her "special" Bobby. I was her romancer, her confidant. Only I "understood" her. Her sun rose and set in me (over my two brothers). Although my little brother replaced me in her bed when I left for the Navy. ( his addiction was control and religion and he always did deminish the significance of what she did)

When I married I moved 1,000 miles from where I grew up, to get away from/divorce/sever from my family of origin even though she had already died by then. I am an addict (sex, rage-mostly against myself).
____________________________________________________________________

When I watched her talk about her little brother I could see that the sun rose and set in him. It was a "special" relationship too.

When he left the Navy (before I was born)he married and he moved 1,000 miles away with little or no contact with anyone in his family of origin. (at 15 I met him for the first time.) He died an addict (alchohol, rage.) He beat his wife and daughters.
_____________________________________________________________________

When I was about 40 yrs old (now 57) I told my aunt what my mother had done. She seemed to believe me. I asked her if anything like that had ever happened in the family before, and she said "No."

I was in a purge and tell everyone mode at that time, and I had an opportunity to speak separately to my cousin/her daughter,. When I told her what her mother had said she responded with shock," What?... Her own grandfather molested her (my aunt.)" She could hardly believe her mother told such a boldface lie about this.


THE PIECES FIT!!!


When I saw my aunt a year later, I asked her if she still believed what I had told her about what her sister had done. She said bluntly,"No." ........I didn't push it anymore.

I felt very dirty and it was a struggle to let go of that feeling and not own it. It was not mine to own. It was her ...lie.

My older brother had already molested me before my mother began to do her creepy things to me. I can only say I witnessed her seductive behavior toward him, such as insisting he wash her back while she was in the bathtub (as she covered her very ample breasts with her arms and knees)when he was about 14 yrs old as he bitterly complained about having to do it.

I thought he was being unreasonable. Obviously I had already been well groomed for her needs.

I don't need any more "real" proof that she molested her little brother, because in my heart I beleave I know the truth about the unhealed pain my uncle took to his grave.

I also know the unhealed pain my little brother took to his grave .

My older brother is an alchoholic, and I believe in denial about everything and depressed. I believe he will take his unhealed pain to his grave too.

I've been through decades of healing from my inconsolable pain. I've finally learned to console my pain far better as time and work around these issues have acumulated. I've even learned to accept the love of those around me....most of the time. And I can even laugh at myself when I start to defend myself from their love. I understand how frail we all are as human beings. Some days are just better than others...

....be gentle with yourself...


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