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#460311 - 02/08/14 07:32 AM Re: Woody Allen Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: Jude]
KMCINVA Offline
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Registered: 08/31/11
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#460321 - 02/08/14 11:49 AM Re: Woody Allen Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: Jude]
randombreeze Offline


Registered: 02/03/14
Posts: 43
Loc: WNY
Sorry if anyone's touched on this as I haven't read all the replies yet. I stopped reading Allen's letter after this sentence:

"TWENTY-ONE years ago, when I first heard Mia Farrow had accused me of child molestation, I found the idea so ludicrous I didn’t give it a second thought".

Really? Doesn't this monster have a publicist or proof reader that screened the letter to assure his words at least sounded believable? Who doesn't give allegations of ANY crime, let alone one committed against children, a second thought?

After looking at Soon-Yi's face in that photo I have little doubt the abuse inflicted on her likely started long before their "realtionship" began after Mia left him. Just horrific.
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#460328 - 02/08/14 01:04 PM Re: Woody Allen Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: KMCINVA]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3321
Loc: O Kanada
it is my opinion that even if woody allen was charged and convicted of child abuse, his fans would still stand by him and stick to their stories.
even if he confessed, or was proven guilty beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt...
even if there was a "secret sex video" of the actual event released on the internet...

his talent for film production and his international fame,
will continue to attract followers, like moths to a flame.

i have seen this type of thing over and over again in the entertainment industry.
it is sad, but ultimately the public does not truly understand, nor do they care about the victim.
it has been my unfortunate experience that the average unabused person cannot consciously connect with victims.
even abuse victims who have not disclosed or dealt with their own feelings about their own sexual abuse can and will identify with the perpetrator. hence the perpetuation cycle.

it comes down to perception of power,
the victim is perceived as "weak" or "loser", wheras the predator is perceived as "strong" and "winner".

show business is a weapon of mass distraction.
this is not news.
this is not even new.
this is entertainment.

consider this quote from a roman poet - written about 100 AD.

"Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses."


Originally Posted By: original latin
"iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli / uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim / imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se / continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, / panem et circenses."
- Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81
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#460329 - 02/08/14 01:16 PM Re: Woody Allen Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: KMCINVA]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3321
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: KMCINVA


this hits the nail on the head!

i would urge caution to sensitive readers.
very triggering.

took me a while to get through it, but it carries a powerful message.

i hope the unabused read this.
it sounds like truth.
the truth is not beautiful,
it is blunt and brutal.

-------------------------
BIG TRIGGER WARNING !
-------------------------
Woody Allen Is Not a Monster. He Is a Person. Like My Father.

Last week, an impassioned letter from a sexual abuse survivor surfaced online. Its author had been at the center a scandal that attracted national media attention. The letter's vulnerability, and its bravery, gave me chills.

Dylan Farrow didn't write it. It was the suicide note of Jesse Ryan Loskarn, a Republican congressional aide arrested last year on charges of distributing child pornography. Loskarn wrote it before hanging himself in his parents' basement while awaiting trial. It made no excuses for his decision to view and distribute child pornography, and told his own history of sexual abuse.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=65212&Number=459649

Loskarn's letter is a painful account of life within the hermetically sealed world of a child sexual abuse survivor, as well as a shocking illustration of how most pedophiles reproduce in our culture. In his alienation, Loskarn discovered images that externalized the very memories that he had worked for decades to push out of his consciousness. And then he got hooked, as if the images were some sort of talisman of his fractured self made whole again.

I understand this. I have never viewed child pornography in my life, but I recall telling my therapist several years ago that part of me desperately wanted to see it, not out of any prurience or titillation, but a deep desire to see a world into which I had been forced at a young age.

have extremely disturbing drawings I made as a kindergartner, a story I wrote when I was six years old carefully trying to tell my mother I had been molested, and a clinical history that could have easily been extracted from a child psychology textbook. But the sort of forensic evidence that some strident folks are demanding of Dylan Farrow eludes me, too.

On a clear blue Saturday afternoon in the summer of 2006, I confronted my father for sexually abusing me, and for the years of quiet emotional abuse that followed. I had been staying in my parents' home for several months after breaking up with a girlfriend in New Haven, Connecticut. I like to think that, in the days leading up to my attack, he knew what was about to happen. That he was almost proud of me for having the balls to finally stand up for myself. I pictured him like a man on the lam, peeking through filthy venetian blinds, half-hoping the cops will just hurry up and break down the door.

Earlier that week, I had disclosed my abuse, for the first time in my life, to my therapist. The world didn't end, as I genuinely feared it might. "It's like reality is right where I left it," I told him, intoxicated with the vivid feeling of finally being alive again. I left his office to walk back to my parents' house, and the full vibrancy of the world rushed back to me, like a time lapse of the twenty five years I had largely missed.

There are a number of popular tropes around child sexual abuse inour culture. Two are preeminent: One calls us liars when we come forward, another calls us crazy. There is a notion that we should be skeptical when an adult comes forward and names their abuser, that we should carefully question their motivations lest we be duped by someone who is manufacturing, or at least strategically re-crafting, a story of abuse to shirk responsibility for their own transgressions. There is also the popular notion that "false memories" of child abuse are common.

Those of us who were abused by a family member, or a family friend, have shared banal time and space with the sort of people who molest kids. We have sat in their cars in traffic and gone to diners with them, watched them scarf cheeseburgers or try to quit smoking, need an aspirin. And mostly, they are not utter sociopaths or sadists.

We are in the paradoxical situation of being subject to pure evil and knowing from experience that its representatives are rarely pure evil themselves. No one is. We have almost certainly seen at least a flicker of innocent joy or generosity in their face. We have puzzled over this person who hurt us, and considered the fact that they too were children once. And we know that many of them were also sexually abused as children. At some point in healing, we just know that there will never be, could never be enough jails to contain this – that it would never work anyway.

We are left with a problem: The greater the tenor of condemnation against these perps, the higher the stakes in telling our own stories, and the higher their own stakes in defending themselves.

If Woody Allen is now written into history as a monstrous child molester, child abuse is more likely to continue. Because if we are unable to stomach the fact that Woody is not a monster but a human being who did something monstrous, we will continue to stoke the fires of archetype, perpetuating the notion of the picture-perfect pedophile, the one whose evil shines through like a 100-watt black lightbulb.

I admire Woody for rejecting Hollywood awards culture and consistently churning out reasonably watchable films.

Yet I know too that Dylan Farrow is telling the truth. And it makes me sick to witness the vile double standard by which our society measures abuse survivors – questioning their credibility based on their behavior, when that behavior is likely the result of the trauma they have endured. Who in the world finds it plausible that Dylan was an emotionally disturbed kid who concocted a false memory from her inability to distinguish between fantasy and reality, rather than a kid who had been systematically traumatized within the sanctity of an otherwise reasonably stable home and so could not fully integrate the experience?

We don't really just condemn the sexualization of children. Instead, we condemn the very existence of child abuse altogether. It's as if the crime includes being victimized by it, or responsible for bringing it into the light. We take an ontological roach spray to the whole event, either denying its status in reality altogether, or competing with one another to proclaim the most exquisite forms of torture for the perpetrators. I can't count how many times I've seen the most strident liberal break character to loudly call for the prison rape of perpetrators.

That this darkness is actually woven into and throughout the fabric of our society—that these abusers are among us—is simply too much to bear. So the darkness is ignored except for the most distilled, theatrical, and viscerally repellent cases.

The loudest voices questioning Dylan's veracity sound uncannily like the same bloodthirsty mobs who seek the sadistic annihilation of confirmed, unambiguously guilty perpetrators. As though, were she able to proffer the forensic evidence they demand, they would swap out their moral subroutines and swarm Woody's doorsteps bearing torches.

There is an in-between, and it's where life is lived, for better and worse. The appropriate response toward someone who has molested a kid is not violence. And the primary concern when confronted with allegations of abuse shouldn't be to make sure that they justify the sacred level of condemnation we reserve for those we know for certain, without doubt, are wolves in sheep's clothing. Monsters.

My own father is a reasonably distinguished medical researcher. Neither of us is in the public eye, yet even if we were, there would be little risk of his contributions being marred by any of it. I can't picture a terminal cancer patient refusing an experimental therapy on the grounds that its inventor molested a child.

Years later, my father broke down on the phone, crying, and acknowledged what he had done. That, the simplest truth, was all I ever wanted.

Most of us would sooner discard all parties who have been tainted by this event than we would look at how tenuous the sanctity of children really is, how commonplace abuse is, or see the capacity for the mostly good to do periodic evil. We live in the same universe as those who abuse kids. We walk among them. If we want to end the sexual abuse of children, it will begin with the recognition that we are simply not that different from them.
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#460345 - 02/08/14 07:32 PM Re: Woody Allen Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: victor-victim]
randombreeze Offline


Registered: 02/03/14
Posts: 43
Loc: WNY
Victor,

Thanks for sharing that article. I'm suffering from a bit of overload regarding the sheer volume of stories and articles relating to this case, but this stunning piece by Mr. Warwick brings a refreshing victim's perspective on the issue of CSA. Incredibly eloquent and powerfully written.


Peace & Love, Paul
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#460351 - 02/08/14 09:00 PM Re: Woody Allen Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: Jude]
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
Good links. Fascinating and relevant reads. I also am finding an overload, but each of the links I have clicked on have given me something that I find familiar and I am glad some in the media and in the mental health venues are showing support for the VICTIM.

Earlier, before the thread was started, I had watched an animated, frustrated, and strangely offended Barbara Walters clip in which she defended Allen and became rather ugly with her co hosts from "the View" when they discussed the Dylan Farrow reminder to the world that she had been abused.

I'll see if I can find the link to that clip just to add and support what we are saying here… which is that this is a world in which the victims of sexual abuse and assault have an overwhelmingly difficult time, even when all behaviors of the perpetrator point to predatory behavior. Walters actually declared she was a "good friend" and found it impossible to believe… or something along those lines.

Thanks, Jude, for establishing this thread.



Barbara Walters defends Woody Allen video from "the View"




Edited by ThisMan (02/08/14 09:07 PM)
Edit Reason: video link added
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#460368 - 02/09/14 04:12 AM Allen vs. Farrow custody court documents. [Re: ThisMan]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3321
Loc: O Kanada
i wonder if anyone has actually read the court documents.

i have the pdf document if anyone wants the link i can pm it to you.

i have taken some effort to transcribe some of the more relevant parts into text format.

here are some details.
written by New York State Supreme Court Justice Elliott Wilk

TRIGGER WARNING

Mr. Allen's relationship with Dylan remains unresolved. The evidence suggests that it is unlikely that he could be successfully prosecuted for sexual abuse. I am less certain, however, than is the Yale-New Haven team, that the evidence proves conclusively that there was no sexual abuse.

Both Dr.Coates and Dr.Schultz expressed their opinions that Mr.Allen did not sexually abuse Dylan. Neither Dr.Coates nor Dr.Schultz has expertise in the field of child sexual abuse. I believe that the opinions of Dr.Coates and Dr.Schultz may have colored by their loyalty to Mr.Allen. I also believe that therapists would have a natural reluctance to accept the possibility that an act of sexual abuse occurred on their watch. I have considered their opinions, but do not find their testimony to be persuasive with respect to sexual abuse or visitation.

I have also considered the report of the Yale-New Haven team and the deposition testimony of Dr.John M. Leventhal. The Yale-New Haven investigation was conducted over a six-month period by Dr.Levanthal, a pediatrican; Dr.Julia Hamilton, who has a Ph.D. in social work; and Ms.Jennifer Sawyer, who has a master's degree in social work. Responsibilty for different aspects of the investigation was divided among the team. The notes of the team members were destroyed prior to the issuance of the report, which, presumably, is an amalgamation of their independent impressions and observations. The unavailability of the notes, together with their unwillingness to testify at this trial except through the deposition of Dr.Levanthal, compromised my ability to scrutinize their findings and resulted in a report which was sanitized and, therefore, less credible.

Dr.Stephen Herman, a clinical psychiatrist who has extensive familiarity with child abuse cases, was called as a witness by Ms.Farrow to comment on the Yale-New Haven report. I share his reservations about the reliability of the report.

Dr.Herman faulted the Yale-New Haven team (1) for making visitation recommendations without seeing the parent interact with the child; (2) for failing to support adequately their conclusion that Dylan has a thought disorder; (3) for drawing any conclusions about Satchel, whom they never say; (4) for finding that there was no abuse when the supporting data was inconclusive; and (5) for recommending that Ms.Farrow enter into therapy. In addition, I do not think that is was appropriate for Yale-New Haven, without notice to the parties or their counsel, to exceed its mandate and make observations and recommendations which might have an impact on existing litigation in another jurisdiction.

Unlike Yale-New Haven, I am not persuaded that the videotape of Dylan is the product of leading questions or of the child's fantasy.

Richard Marcus, a retired New York City police officer, called by Mr.Allen, testified that he worked with the police sex crimes unit for six years. He claimed to have a intuitive ability to know if a person is truthful or not. He concluded "based on my experience", that Dylan lacked credibility. I did not find his testimony to be insightful.

I agree with Dr.Herman and Dr.Brodzinsky that we will probably never know what happened on August 4, 1992. The credible testimony of Ms.Farrow, Dr.Coates, Dr.Levanthal and Mr.Allen does, however, prove that Mr.Allen's behavior toward Dylan was grossly inappropriate and that measures must be taken to protect her.

Mr.Allen's request for immediate visitation with Dylan is denied. It is unclear whether Mr.Allen will ever develop the insight and judgment necessary for him to relate to Dylan appropriately. According to Dr.Brodzinsky, even if Dylan was not sexually abused, she feels victimized by her father's relationship with her sister. Dylan has recently begun treatment with a new therapist. Now that this trial is concluded, she is entitled to the time and space necessary to create a protective environment that will promote the therapeutic process. A significant goal of that therapy is to encourage her to fulfill her individual potential, including the resilience to deal with Mr.Allen in a manner which is not injurious to her.

Ms.Farrow, Casey Pascal, Sophie Raven (Dylan's French tutor), and Dr.Coates testified that Mr.Allen focused on Dylan to the exclusion of her siblings, even when Satchel and Moses were present.

Dr.Coates observed: "I understand why she was worried, because it [Mr.Allen's relationship with Dylan] was intense, ... I did not see it as sexual, but I saw it as inappropriately intense because it excluded everybody else, and it placed a demand on the child for a kind of acknowledgment that I felt should not be placed on a child."

On August 4, 1992, Mr.Allen travelled to Ms.Farrow's Connecticut vacation home to spend time with his children. Earlier in the day, Casey Pascal had come for a visit with her three young children and their babysitter, Alison Strickland. Ms.Farrow and Ms.Pascal were shopping when Mr.Allen arrived. Those present were Ms.Pascal's three children; Ms.Strickland; Kristie Groteke, a babysitter employed by Ms.Farrow; Sophie Berge, a French tutor for the children; Dylan; and Satchel.

Ms.Farrow had previously instructed Ms.Groteke that Mr.Allen was not to be left alone with Dylan. For a period of fifteen or twenty minutes during the afternoon, Ms.Groteke was unable to locate Mr.Allen or Dylan. After looking for them in the house, she assumed that they were outside with the others. But neither Ms.Berge nor Ms.Stickland was with Mr.Allen or Dylan. Ms.Groteke made no mention of this to Ms.Farrow on August 4.

During a different portion of the day, Ms.Stickland went to the television room in search of one of Ms.Pascal's children. She observed Mr.Allen kneeling in front of Dylan with his head in her lap, facing her body. Dylan was sitting on the couch staring vacantly in the direction of a television set.

After Ms.Farrow returned home, Ms.Berge noticed that Dylan was not wearing anything under sundress. She told Ms.Farrow, who asked Ms.Groteke to put underpants on Dylan.

Ms.Stickland testified that during the evening of August 4, she told Ms.Pascal, "I had seen something at Mia's that day that was bothering me." She revealed what she had seen in the television room. On August 5, Ms.Pascal telephoned Ms.Farrow to tell her what Ms.Stickland had observed.

Ms.Farrow testified that after she hung up the telephone, she asked Dylan, who was sitting next to her, "whether is was true that daddy had his face in her lap yesterday."

Ms.Farrow testified: "Dylan said yes. And then she said that she didn't like it one bit, no, he was breathing into her, into her legs, she said. And that he was holding her around the waist and I said, why didn't you get up and she said she tried to but that he put his hands underneath her and touched her. And she showed me where... Her behind."

Because she was already uncomfortable with Mr.Allen's inappropriate behavior toward Dylan and because she believed that her concerns were not being taken seriously enough by Dr.Schultz and Dr.Coates, Ms.Farrow videotaped Dylan's statements. Over the next twenty-four hours, Dylan told Ms.Farrow that she had been with Mr.Allen in the attic and that he had touched her privates with his finger.

After Dylan's first comments, Ms.Farrow telephoned her attorney for guidance. She was advised to bring Dylan to her local pediatrician, which she did immediately. Dylan did not repeat the accusation of sexual abuse during this visit and Ms.Farrow was advised to return with Dylan on the following day. On the trip home, she explained to her mother that she did not like talking about her privates. On August 6, when Ms.Farrow went back to Dr.Kavirajan's office, Dylan repeated what she had told her mother on August 5. A medical examination conducted on August 9 showed no physical evidence of sexual abuse.

On December 30, 1992, Dylan was interviewed by a representative of the Connecticut State Police. She told them--at a time Ms.Farrow calculates to be the fall of 1991--that while at Mr.Allen's apartment, she saw him and Soon-Yi having sex. Her reporting was childlike but graphic.

Ten days before Yale-New Haven concluded its investigation, Dylan told Ms.Farrow, for the first time, that in Connecticut, while she was climbing up the ladder to the bunk bed, Mr.Allen put his hands under her shorts and touched her. Ms.Farrow testified that as Dylan said this, "she was illustrating graphically where in the genital area."

findings of New York State Supreme Court Justice Elliott Wilk



please read the entire court document. before you commit to any comments or conclusions.

i was unable to transcribe it all.

this is an official court document which includes the findings and conclusions of an actual Judge.

it also includes witness testimony.
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#460371 - 02/09/14 06:46 AM Re: Dylan Farrow Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: Jude]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3321
Loc: O Kanada


"It is my opinion that Woody Allen is an incestuous pedophile and I believe Dylan Farrow. In general, I am opposed to psychological commentary on stories in the news because one doesn't know the story behind the story. I am certainly opposed to false accusations and often defend people when they are the subject of witch hunts. This too is a serious problem. But in this case I make an exception. Of course I can’t draw this conclusion with absolute certainty because that is not possible. I wasn’t there. But I do conclude that sexual molestation did happen. This had already been my conclusion prior to reading Dylan Farrow’s letter, on the basis of his marriage to Soon-Yi.

We already know that he married a daughter. The idea that Soon-Yi was adopted and this is used to vindicate him is absurd. The explanation that he and Mia did not live together does not change anything. They adopted a number of children together. This was a family, albeit not traditional, but a family. This is not a stretch. This is fact. I have never heard of any father marrying a daughter or daughteroid. But Woody Allen did. America’s celebrity obsession actually rationalized that this was OK. Uhmm, this is not OK. It was disturbing that he got away with this in the first place. What about the poor girl? Is there any possibility that he and Soon-Yi didn’t have sex before marriage? Perhaps she had been the Platonic love of his life?

The reason why I believe its important to take a stand here is because incestuous pedophilia is very, very destructive to the victim. I have treated a number of such patients. I have also treated incestuous abusers. And its almost impossible to prove. And they never admit it. Most of the time the men who commit incestuous pedophilia get away with it and the child is destroyed. And these men do not have as much power, prestige, money and devoted followers, as Woody Allen. He’s a very powerful man.

On the basis of my experience with both victims and victimizers, Dylan Farrow’s letter rings true, as well as the support of the rest of the family. The whole story has the familiar hallmarks that pertained to cases that I have treated. How could Hollywood, his bevy of actresses (who support a very puzzling form of feminism), never mind their personal betrayal of Dylan, and America at large support such a travesty? It makes no difference that he is a successful ‘artist’. As is typical of the rich, celebrity, and famous, he gets a pass.

Why do we idolize and admire actor celebrities who make their living pretending they are other people. I’m not sure that this qualifies them to be our moral guides. And as always, the true victim, this innocent little girl, who he destroyed, is steamrolled by rich male celebrity power. The victims never have a voice. She is vilified and attacked along with the rest of the Farrow family as if they are some kind of sore sports.

An incestuous pedophile is a common criminal. We in the psychiatric, psychological community need to stand up against this evil. To remain silent is to condone it. I love Dylan Farrow’s first and last line “What’s your favorite Woody Allen movie?” This ought to generate disgust.
"

written by Robert A. Berezin
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#460587 - 02/12/14 11:29 PM Re: Dylan Farrow Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: Jude]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1509
Loc: New England
Hey,

I've been thinking about this for the past week. Spoke to my T about it. Been wondering, why am I so drawn to this story? I am not a "celebrity watcher". Don't read People magazine. Don't watch Entertainment Tonight. Don't usually give a shit about who's banging who.

I guess I've realized that this story makes me angry. Angry that a little girl got molested. Angry that the perp got away with it, and kept his reputation intact. Angry that even 20 years later when that girl is a woman and tries to tell her story, she's dismissed as being just a pathetic creature, manipulated into telling a lie by a vindictive mother. Angry that the public is so gullible that they choose buy into this.

But on a personal level, its me who feels abused and dismissed. Its me who finds no justice. Its me who cannot even have the satisfaction of publicly shaming my abuser. Its me who has to live with its effects on me. I feel sympathy for Dylan Farrow, and am proud of her for speaking out. But its me feeling this pain and anger. Dammit, I am so tired of these feelings.
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And I know, baby, just how you feel.
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#460595 - 02/13/14 12:08 AM Re: Dylan Farrow Speaks Out About Sexual Abuse [Re: Jude]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3321
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: Jude
Hey,

I've been thinking about this for the past week. Spoke to my T about it. Been wondering, why am I so drawn to this story? I am not a "celebrity watcher". Don't read People magazine. Don't watch Entertainment Tonight. Don't usually give a shit about who's banging who.

I guess I've realized that this story makes me angry. Angry that a little girl got molested. Angry that the perp got away with it, and kept his reputation intact. Angry that even 20 years later when that girl is a woman and tries to tell her story, she's dismissed as being just a pathetic creature, manipulated into telling a lie by a vindictive mother. Angry that the public is so gullible that they choose buy into this.

But on a personal level, its me who feels abused and dismissed. Its me who finds no justice. Its me who cannot even have the satisfaction of publicly shaming my abuser. Its me who has to live with its effects on me. I feel sympathy for Dylan Farrow, and am proud of her for speaking out. But its me feeling this pain and anger. Dammit, I am so tired of these feelings.


me, too.
the ignorance and hostility toward the victim is astounding, outrageous, and triggering.
i have had to separate myself from it.
truly, it is the, at best dismissive, and at worst abusive, treatment of dylan that is deeply disturbing.
unacceptable. disappointing. etc. etc.
there is no end to the negative feelings.
i just keep reminding myself, this is not about me,
this is not about woody, this is not about the trolls,
this is about a courageous young adult survivor of child abuse speaking out and breaking the silence,
and that is a good thing!
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