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#45950 - 08/10/02 08:05 PM fantasy - or humiliation ?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
This post is long and graphic and deals with my fantasies, so please be careful. I don't want to trigger things for you. Lloydy.

What I want to do is deconstruct my fantasies, they're about the only thing left that really bother me any more. The flashbacks I can deal with, depressive days can be caused by other things, not neccesarily my abuse. I still have problems, but I mostly deal with them now
The fantasies however linger on, and give me trouble. They are, I think, the reason I shy away from making love with my wife. It's hard to make love when the image I have in my mind is giving oral sex to strangers, or recieving anal sex. And it's got to go.

I did both things regularly from the age of 11 to 15 with many older boys and a teacher, I know what it's like. Perhaps that's part of the problem, if they are such bad things to do then why do so many gay men choose to do them ? Both have their pleasures, it can't be denied - but I guess the gay men and the straight ones will agree that sex, in whatever form, is better when there's some degree of affection and love involved. Even promiscuous people who have one night stands generally go through the motions of sharing caress', sharing the pleasure, knowing the name of the person they are having sex with.
To just go down on a strange man because he's standing in a public toilet flashing his hard on at you doesn't have any of that. That's all about humiliation. A big part of that for me was the risk of being caught, I probably didn't want to actually get caught, but the risk was a hugh kick, especially on top of the adreniline induced rush I could create in the lead up to my acting out. Thinking about being caught often came into the fantasy, the ultimate humiliation ?

So why is the fantasy still so active, even if I believe that acting out will never happen again, why do I masturbate to it so often ?
It's still so ingrained in my sub concious that I dream about it, I can wake up and it's the first thought in my mind, It comes on less during the day now, but it's still lurking and if I'm alone and pissed off with my job it comes on strong. So strong that I have to masturbate to release myself from it, sometimes in the back of my van................. It's so desparate.
And all the time it's happening I recognise the shame and humiliation that is the root of it, I know what's going on......why can't I find the point to break the cycle ?

If it was pleasurable to me surely I would go out and find someone who I could share the pleasure with ? But that's not part of the deal, the fantasy doesn't go there at all. All I see in the fantasy is the cock in front of me, I have never constructed a fantasy around any man I know, have seen, or imagined. Race, colour, age or any features don't come into it - only the cock. When looking at gay porn I avoided the pictures of whole men in favour of the torso of one man and the face of the other, I could relate to that, project my face onto the picture of the blow job.
In my fantasy how we meet is at best perfunctory, but the sequence of events IS important. The stranger makes it known he's available then I take over and make all the moves after that, I say " let me suck you off" or something similar. But I do the talking, I make the decisions. I take control, but also take the "humiliating" role. I guess it's a master / slave type of thing, although a very mixed up one. I want to be the slave- on MY terms !! It's probably a way of reclaiming the power I lost doing these same things as a boy. I was certainly groomed to say these kind of things to my abusers. When they happened to bump into me in the corridor and say "what are you doing after dinner ?" my reply was " Let's go and fuck" or whatever.......
I was trained to do that, it made me the instigator and relieved them of blame. The fact that I was beaten and gang raped by six of them very early on in a show of force led me to the easy option of doing what they wanted.

Like many abused boys I did participate, apparently willingly, in the sex. I got erections, I came, I had sex with some of them. I was taught to believe I enjoyed it. Perhaps I did ?
Perhaps that is still there, the guilt at having enjoyed some of it. Also, my memories have remained with me since the time it happened, and I have vivid memories of suggesting different positions and asking if I was doing things just right. Not the sort of thing a boy should be doing.

Years of fantasy evolved, inevitably, into acting out. And it was horrid; disgusting toilets and equally disgusting strangers. The sex wasn't the pleasure I anticipated, it was clumsy fumbling about.
And the rigid fantasy was never fulfilled, the stranger would say the wrong thing, "suck this !" and that wasn't the way I planned it, I wasn't in control anymore. Realistically, it would never be the way I planned it- life doesn't work that way.
It was nothing more than total dissapointment, but is that a close relation of humiliation ? Probably.

So I guess the question I have to ask myself is "why do I feel the need to humiliate myself ?"

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#45951 - 08/10/02 11:00 PM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
hi Llody,
Sounds like you are dealing with several things here. It seems that you might have a sexual addiction that takes charge of you. Getting to a point where you can chose to not masturbate would be important.
You also mentioned that there is a certain rush to the danger of it all. So many times I have had prostitutes that I work with tell me that they need that danger--they felt bored to death in recovery. They definitely liked the rush of wondering if they would get caught, could they steal from the john, would he try to get rough etc. I believe that this need for the rush of danger is something that is becoming seen as a distinct pathology, but I am not certain. We reffered our women to a clinical social worker to discuss that as a separate issue from their chemical addiction.
Sometimes we need to admit that we are powerless--but then again we need to know that we have to do what we can to stay out of the slippery places--physically or mentally.
Keep working on it--you deserve real peace and serenity.
Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#45952 - 08/11/02 12:24 AM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
Eddie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/31/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Hey Lloydy,
Not saying much lately because of my stress..but, for someone who has been through the 11 to 14 suck and get fucked to live type thing..I will say something to you and everyone... that is very FRANK and very GRAPHIC !!! I think and my therapist agrees... that if a guy had lots of sex with guys from 11 to 14...his mind is fucked up to the point of that he has deep needs of "acting it out" for all the reasons that you have stated!

I will cut all the bullshit and say you got fucked a lot...why not give your mouth a rest and start letting your wife fist you! Sounds hard to everyone, but it's very clean and not hard if done right....couldn't dream of a bigger cock to get fucked by...how else can you really act it out with her...dildos are nothing like something real in you...after awhile (at least for me) the fantasy of guys went away and it's just my wife!!! AND...Fisting is so heavy..it fills all of the requirements...lots of guys have their wives do it to them...you got control and you don't... at the same time...and you feel good afterwards...it's your wife not some strange guy. May take some time to get her into it but once you do..she and you will feel a closeness that you never felt before! I say screw all of the people not addicted to sex and can't understand..and go for it...safe acting out and lots of fun!!!! Want to know more..just ask! And Lloydy please be a little nicer to yourself and have some sexual fun...GOOD LUCK!

Eddie


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#45953 - 08/11/02 12:53 AM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
Broken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Huntingtun Beach, CA, US
eddie, you need to stop with this shit. Your out of line, and if you expect anyone to show you any support, you need to start thinking before you type here. I dont know what the hell your problem is, but that is NOT appropriate.

Many of your posts are unsupportive and sometimes hurtfull. Whatever abuse you may have suffered, you dont have the right to re-traumatise others because you are either too insensitive or maybe too angry to know how what your saying will effect others. Sometimes i wonder if you are a perpatrator who is lurking and using our pain to get off on. You never seem to have anything good to say and seem to have made no real progress. If you are an other survivor then you need to take responsibility for what you say. People here have suffered unimaginable pain, and if you can not respect that, then you should not be here.


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#45954 - 08/11/02 01:19 AM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
Broken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Huntingtun Beach, CA, US
I have had a relapse too. I guess it started when i was thinking about how nothing i was thnking could ever be real. I locked myself in my room yesterday, today i went out and actually did something, but i didnt do much. It hurts so bad i wont let myself feel it.

It is getting better slowly. The more i feel like i accomplish and get in touch with my what i think of as my Yin, the less pressure there is to do these things. I think the only way out of this is to redefine yourself in your mind. You have to recreate your self image from who you are, instead of who you have been conditioned to believe you are. I am not weak, sissy is a word for frightened children pretending to be grown men. No matter what i have done to myself or what imagine myself as, it doesnt change who i am.

The darkness is the constrast to the light, without it your not whole. Shape yourself into who you want to be, and these fantasies of yours and mine will be a part fo who we were, instead of who we are. It is slow, and it hurts real bad, but if we learn to live with the pain, we wont need to inflict it upon ourselves anymore.

I sometimes tell myself when i am down and out into my own mind, that i may not be able to stop myself today. I may not be able to stop a week from today. But one day, i WILL stop. That is how i get through it.

I know there is no real sense of comfort in the darkness you are in, but i still hope what i say finds you somehow, and i want you to know that i do not believe you are weak, i do not believe you deserve this pain and humliation. If i can not believe that the same is true for me right now, then i will believe it in you.

Maybe there are less dramtic ways of saying things, but i dont really care. I hope we can both get over this, and I know that as i look out for you, your looking out for me, the same as everyone here. Be kind and forgiving to yourself, you will be free of this one day.


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#45955 - 08/11/02 03:08 AM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
babs Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/01
Posts: 59
Loc: Cub Hill, MD
Broken,

I'm Babs and I've been married to Eddie for almost 23 years.

I'm sorry that you were SHOCKED by the very FRANK and very GRAPHIC comments, but he stated that at the very beginning of the post.

As I see things you appear to be one who is out of line by making those horrible accusations about Eddie. In fact I think you owe him an apology. Lloydy and Eddie were both abused as pre-pubescent boys. They are now older married SA survivors that are trying desperately to deal with their sexual addictions and stay with their wives.

Being supportive sometimes comes in the form of personal insights or discussions of how one survivor deals with his issues. Responding to every post with soothing, placating and stroking staments like "I don't think you are weak" are not the only answer to everything.

Eddie knows how Lloydy feels about being tortured by his own "unwanted "fantasies. He has made a tremendous amount of "healthy" progress in his recovery. I pray you are as fortunate as he has been.

Babs


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#45956 - 08/11/02 07:41 AM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Just a quick reply here,
I appreciate ALL the replies here so far and I will read and respond to them later tonight maybe.

Eddie, you cracked me up -with laughter man !
I don't think fisting is for me to be honest, it's never even entered my fantasies. But I do take your point, if it feels good - do it. But make it safe and with someone you love.
Thanks for that.

Broken, thanks for your defense. I do appreciate that you think about what you write, and you do have a point that something as blunt as Eddies post could upset some people. But we go through life being upset about all kinds of shit, if we come here I would say we have to expect it sometimes. But thanks for your genuine concern, especially your second post.

Babs
Quote:
Being supportive sometimes comes in the form of personal insights or discussions of how one survivor deals with his issues. Responding to every post with soothing, placating and stroking staments like "I don't think you are weak" are not the only answer to everything.
I believe this has to be the way, if we don't face it up front, we don't face it at all.
Thanks Bab's

So - carry on, I thought this might get interesting, It's already given me stuff to think about...........
Thanks Lloydy \:\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#45957 - 08/11/02 10:18 AM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
Broken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Huntingtun Beach, CA, US
No, wait a minute Lloyd, this is not appropriate, even as a joke. In fact, i recall eddie posting something similiar when a confused survivor was questioning his sexual identity, telling him he "might be gay!" and refering to this as fist-therapy. There were no half assed warning labels then about warning, graphic. Maybe you and i are a bit thick skinned, but others who have just begun there journeys are not.

section edited by Lloydy

I have remained silent up until now, but to be honest some of your replies have been infuriating to me. There is a callous disregard for others pain in your remarks, and you have never shown one shred of what i believe is genuine empathy for anyone here.

section edited by Lloydy


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#45958 - 08/11/02 07:01 PM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Oh dear........
This wasn't exactly what I was looking for, so I will try and stick my oar in before a riot breaks out.
Broken, I do see your point, and as you rightly say some of us are thick skinned and just gloss over or laugh about Eddie's suggestion, but I agree that some might get upset about it, even if his comments were aimed at me.
I would hope that Eddie is just making the point that he and Bab's have incorporated aspects of Eddies acting out into their lives, although Eddies blunt style does sometimes imply that fisting is also a cure for the common cold ! ;\)

Abuse is an angry subject, some people release their anger in ways different to our own, some of us hold it in and end up releasing it suddenly to the detriment of those about us, some of us hold it in until it festers inside us.
It's difficult to deal with anger when we aren't face to face, and I hope this thread doen't end up as an outlet for peoples anger.

I'm certain everyone has posted with the best intentions, and personaly I hope nobody throw their toys out of the pram over this.
It would only hurt us all.

Thanks, be cool.
Lloydy

PS.
Since putting this post on I have decided to put on the moderators hat and edit some of Brokens post.
I didn't do it lightly, in fact it took a long while to decide what to do and some of you will undoubtedly have read what was there. I hope you deal with it in an appropriate manner to avoid rumours etc.

I have sent messages to all concerned and I hope this will sort it out amicably.
Lloydy ( with moderators hat on \:\) )

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#45959 - 08/11/02 11:06 PM Re: fantasy - or humiliation ?
SoCalJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Los Angeles, California
i read brokens post before it was edited, not sure why you felt you had to edit it.

I myself wonder why eddie's wife has to come and post here in his defense, is he not capable of speaking for himself?, he seems quite outspoken on many topics and quite frankly i agree with broken, some of his posts dont show much in the line of compassion or understanding, some of them in my opinion are just out of line, period.

This is supposed to be a male survivors only section, and for a non male, non survivor to come here and post what amounts to a personal attack on one of our members just rubs me the wrong way.

Kinda pisses me off.

Enough said by me on this thread.

John

_________________________
I asked him about this law he spoke of, he said,,, *watch* he then asked the others to share about their lives,,, the others talked of how things were for them, how things worked in their lives,,, and as they believed, it was so.

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