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#458347 - 01/09/14 03:38 PM Female on Male rape in the Bible
JustScott Offline
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Quote:
Genesis 19:30-38

Lot and His Daughters

30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said to the younger, ďOur father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.Ē 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, ďBehold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.Ē 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.[a] He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.[b] He is the father of the Ammonites to this day.


Emphasis mine.

I've known this story for a LONG time and yet, not until recently did it occur to me that this constituted rape. They got him drunk, and while he was passed out used him in order to become pregnant. Aside from their getting pregnant, he never knew it had occurred.

Thoughts?

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#458352 - 01/09/14 04:07 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3362
Loc: O Kanada
my thoughts are,
this reminds me of when i did not study the bible.
i knew of this story and thought that the bible promoted incest.
i don't see where jhvh condones or rewards or commands this particular incident to happen.
i don't see where it is punished either.
i do know that incest is condemned and forbidden by god, but generations later, in the time of Moses.
i believe Abraham was married to his half-sister Sarah, but again, that was chronologically centuries prior to the prohibitions.

Leviticus 18:6Ė18
6 ďNone of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the Lord.
7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your fatherís wife; it is your fatherís nakedness.
9 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your fatherís daughter or your motherís daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home.
10 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sonís daughter or of your daughterís daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness.
11 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your fatherís wifeís daughter, brought up in your fatherís family, since she is your sister.
12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your fatherís sister; she is your fatherís relative.
13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your motherís sister, for she is your motherís relative.
14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your fatherís brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt.
15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your sonís wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brotherís wife; it is your brotherís nakedness.
17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her sonís daughter or her daughterís daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are relatives; it is depravity.
18 And you shall not take a woman as a a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

bottom line,
yes, in my opinion, the daughters sexually abused the father.
but hardly any person would let the man off the hook.
can you imagine me telling people, it's not my fault i impregnated my daughters, i was drunk.
but in their defense, these people were living in a cave after surviving a severe trauma.
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#458358 - 01/09/14 04:30 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Interestingly enough God eventually declares judgement on the Moabites and Ammonites in Zephaniah 2:8-9

"Therefore, as I live," declares the Lord of hosts, The God of Israel, "Surely Moab will be like Sodom. And the sons of Ammon like Gomorrahó A place possessed by nettles and salt pits, And a perpetual desolation. The remnant of My people will plunder them And the remainder of My nation will inherit them."

I find it interesting that in their judgement God references the cities that were destroyed that led to their very existence.

Lot's daughters were surely wicked, but then Lot really wasn't that good a fellow either, he had offered these same daughter's to the crowds that had wished to rape the visitor's he was hiding.

Sadly when men are raped no one ever lets them off the hook no matter if they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol or not.

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#458359 - 01/09/14 04:37 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3362
Loc: O Kanada
when i am reading the old testament,
i have to keep reminding myself,
none of these people are followers of jesus the messiah.

when i am reading the new testament,
i have to keep reminding myself,
none of these people had the new testament.
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#458369 - 01/09/14 07:55 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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How very true. However the Jews did have what God had revealed up to that point. Although it did not make them better or fix anything. Just the opposite, it made them more accountable because they had the Law to show them.

Jesus came and showed the Spirit of the Law, that being Love, while the Jews had gotten hung up on the letter of the Law.

Good points to keep in mind.

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#458392 - 01/10/14 03:31 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3362
Loc: O Kanada
i can see that we agree.

one of the reasons why my sins bother me more, now than before, is because i learned the laws and commandments.

to me, sins of rebellion seem worse than sins of ignorance.

i can claim i didn't know any better,
since i was unaware of the rules at that time,
but i still believed i carried some innate sense of right and wrong.
i was wrong, though smile


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#458550 - 01/13/14 09:55 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
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Sure, I believe we all do carry that sense of right and wrong. I believe it is God given, but in our fallen state we can "override" or wipe it out if you will. Although I think deep down no matter what lies we tell ourselves, we know it isn't right.

I agree, rebellion is worse than ignorance. One is willful, and one is unintentional. I love studying the writings of Paul. He's so real and open with his struggle. I just started teaching on 1 Timothy, and this part stuck out to me:
Quote:
12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.Amen.


Interesting to note, that the "judging faithful and appointing" too place WHILE Paul (then Saul) was still openly persecuting the church. Christ showed up and literally said... Hey, I've chosen YOU to take my message to the gentiles.... Paul had done NOTHING at that point. Hence the Grace and Mercy that Paul points out.

I also like the section just before this one where Paul points out the that Law is good if used lawfully and that it is not for the Just, but for the lawless and disobedient. IE: The Law is for those who do not belong to God. Sadly the church has used it wrongly for so long, as a standard to try to force people to live by (same as the Jews were doing, we really are no different than they). Literally it's a standard for those who live apart from God. God made a better way, but if we want to live our own way, there's the guidelines.

The better way really is love. God demonstrated that love for us through Jesus. Unconditional, undeserved love. Grace and Mercy. Yet why do we keep running back to the letter and not the Spirit?

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#458563 - 01/14/14 02:27 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 605
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It's an interesting passage from a psychological point of view. According to Lot, both of his daughters were virgins (19:8). So the implications is that the daughters chose to have their first sexual experience with their father. Of course, Lot had previously shown that he considered the sexuality of his daughters to be completely under his control (again 19:8) including offering them up to gang rape. Such an offer would have made anyone feel invalidated and powerless. If a parent says "your body belongs to me, I can force you to have sex with whoever I want," then it is not really surprising that the child has an incorrect view of what is and isn't acceptable. It is also not surprising that if they are taught the sexuality is about power that they would want to take back that power from the one who took it from them. Lot taught his children that sex didn't require consent, and that "lesson" ended up coming back to bite him. I don't believe rape is ever an acceptable punishment of course, but there is a certain amount of "you reap what you sow" in the story.
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#458567 - 01/14/14 03:34 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3362
Loc: O Kanada
the daughters must have thought that what they were doing was wrong because they conspired and contrived a plot which involved deception and alcohol. were the act not verboten or at least inappropriate, this ruse would not have been necessary.
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#458573 - 01/14/14 06:47 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: victor-victim]
Jacob S Offline
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Originally Posted By: victor-victim
the daughters must have thought that what they were doing was wrong because they conspired and contrived a plot which involved deception and alcohol. were the act not verboten or at least inappropriate, this ruse would not have been necessary.



Or one could say they knew what they were doing was making their father powerless and he wouldn't like that. When sex is about power, then it is also about deception. They'd been reared in an environment where sex could be forced on someone so its not surprising that they continued the cycle. The alcohol and deception was the means they had to turn the tables and retake control of their sexuality.


Edited by Jacob S (01/14/14 06:49 AM)
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