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#458347 - 01/09/14 03:38 PM Female on Male rape in the Bible
JustScott Offline
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Quote:
Genesis 19:30-38

Lot and His Daughters

30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.[a] He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.[b] He is the father of the Ammonites to this day.


Emphasis mine.

I've known this story for a LONG time and yet, not until recently did it occur to me that this constituted rape. They got him drunk, and while he was passed out used him in order to become pregnant. Aside from their getting pregnant, he never knew it had occurred.

Thoughts?

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#458352 - 01/09/14 04:07 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
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my thoughts are,
this reminds me of when i did not study the bible.
i knew of this story and thought that the bible promoted incest.
i don't see where jhvh condones or rewards or commands this particular incident to happen.
i don't see where it is punished either.
i do know that incest is condemned and forbidden by god, but generations later, in the time of Moses.
i believe Abraham was married to his half-sister Sarah, but again, that was chronologically centuries prior to the prohibitions.

Leviticus 18:6–18
6 “None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the Lord.
7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness.
9 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home.
10 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son’s daughter or of your daughter’s daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness.
11 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, brought up in your father’s family, since she is your sister.
12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is your father’s relative.
13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is your mother’s relative.
14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt.
15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son’s wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness.
17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are relatives; it is depravity.
18 And you shall not take a woman as a a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

bottom line,
yes, in my opinion, the daughters sexually abused the father.
but hardly any person would let the man off the hook.
can you imagine me telling people, it's not my fault i impregnated my daughters, i was drunk.
but in their defense, these people were living in a cave after surviving a severe trauma.
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#458358 - 01/09/14 04:30 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Interestingly enough God eventually declares judgement on the Moabites and Ammonites in Zephaniah 2:8-9

"Therefore, as I live," declares the Lord of hosts, The God of Israel, "Surely Moab will be like Sodom. And the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah— A place possessed by nettles and salt pits, And a perpetual desolation. The remnant of My people will plunder them And the remainder of My nation will inherit them."

I find it interesting that in their judgement God references the cities that were destroyed that led to their very existence.

Lot's daughters were surely wicked, but then Lot really wasn't that good a fellow either, he had offered these same daughter's to the crowds that had wished to rape the visitor's he was hiding.

Sadly when men are raped no one ever lets them off the hook no matter if they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol or not.

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#458359 - 01/09/14 04:37 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
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when i am reading the old testament,
i have to keep reminding myself,
none of these people are followers of jesus the messiah.

when i am reading the new testament,
i have to keep reminding myself,
none of these people had the new testament.
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#458369 - 01/09/14 07:55 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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How very true. However the Jews did have what God had revealed up to that point. Although it did not make them better or fix anything. Just the opposite, it made them more accountable because they had the Law to show them.

Jesus came and showed the Spirit of the Law, that being Love, while the Jews had gotten hung up on the letter of the Law.

Good points to keep in mind.

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#458392 - 01/10/14 03:31 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
i can see that we agree.

one of the reasons why my sins bother me more, now than before, is because i learned the laws and commandments.

to me, sins of rebellion seem worse than sins of ignorance.

i can claim i didn't know any better,
since i was unaware of the rules at that time,
but i still believed i carried some innate sense of right and wrong.
i was wrong, though smile


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#458550 - 01/13/14 09:55 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Sure, I believe we all do carry that sense of right and wrong. I believe it is God given, but in our fallen state we can "override" or wipe it out if you will. Although I think deep down no matter what lies we tell ourselves, we know it isn't right.

I agree, rebellion is worse than ignorance. One is willful, and one is unintentional. I love studying the writings of Paul. He's so real and open with his struggle. I just started teaching on 1 Timothy, and this part stuck out to me:
Quote:
12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.Amen.


Interesting to note, that the "judging faithful and appointing" too place WHILE Paul (then Saul) was still openly persecuting the church. Christ showed up and literally said... Hey, I've chosen YOU to take my message to the gentiles.... Paul had done NOTHING at that point. Hence the Grace and Mercy that Paul points out.

I also like the section just before this one where Paul points out the that Law is good if used lawfully and that it is not for the Just, but for the lawless and disobedient. IE: The Law is for those who do not belong to God. Sadly the church has used it wrongly for so long, as a standard to try to force people to live by (same as the Jews were doing, we really are no different than they). Literally it's a standard for those who live apart from God. God made a better way, but if we want to live our own way, there's the guidelines.

The better way really is love. God demonstrated that love for us through Jesus. Unconditional, undeserved love. Grace and Mercy. Yet why do we keep running back to the letter and not the Spirit?

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#458563 - 01/14/14 02:27 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
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It's an interesting passage from a psychological point of view. According to Lot, both of his daughters were virgins (19:8). So the implications is that the daughters chose to have their first sexual experience with their father. Of course, Lot had previously shown that he considered the sexuality of his daughters to be completely under his control (again 19:8) including offering them up to gang rape. Such an offer would have made anyone feel invalidated and powerless. If a parent says "your body belongs to me, I can force you to have sex with whoever I want," then it is not really surprising that the child has an incorrect view of what is and isn't acceptable. It is also not surprising that if they are taught the sexuality is about power that they would want to take back that power from the one who took it from them. Lot taught his children that sex didn't require consent, and that "lesson" ended up coming back to bite him. I don't believe rape is ever an acceptable punishment of course, but there is a certain amount of "you reap what you sow" in the story.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#458567 - 01/14/14 03:34 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
the daughters must have thought that what they were doing was wrong because they conspired and contrived a plot which involved deception and alcohol. were the act not verboten or at least inappropriate, this ruse would not have been necessary.
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#458573 - 01/14/14 06:47 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: victor-victim]
Jacob S Offline
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Originally Posted By: victor-victim
the daughters must have thought that what they were doing was wrong because they conspired and contrived a plot which involved deception and alcohol. were the act not verboten or at least inappropriate, this ruse would not have been necessary.



Or one could say they knew what they were doing was making their father powerless and he wouldn't like that. When sex is about power, then it is also about deception. They'd been reared in an environment where sex could be forced on someone so its not surprising that they continued the cycle. The alcohol and deception was the means they had to turn the tables and retake control of their sexuality.


Edited by Jacob S (01/14/14 06:49 AM)
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#458575 - 01/14/14 08:22 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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I see both ends and views here. The girls were definitely raised in an environment where sexual activity (such as throwing your daughters to the wolves and gang raping visitors) was an every day occurrence.

So yes they seem to have thought little of this activity.

However that being said, I don't believe what they did was an act of revenge or getting back at anyone. They wanted to have have children and believed no man would have them or possibly the destruction was so bad they thought there were no other men perhaps (I've heard both views)? I believe they knew full well their father would never agree, so they conspired to get him drunk in order to get what they wanted.

I find it interesting that God spared Lot, considering he was a man who would throw his own daughters out to a mob to be gang raped when the whole premise before we get to this event is a dialog with Abraham pleading for the cities if only 10 righteous men could be found..... Which apparently in that city wasn't the case, as those that did survive certainly didn't seem to fall into that category. It was almost as if God was showing grace and mercy on behalf of Lot being Abraham's Nephew. Yet if we look at his action, he was trying to protect the visitors... But what a tangled web is woven when we would allow one crime in place of preventing another. Such is the way of sin.

Interestingly enough though, come up to Deuteronomy and we see God commanding the Hebrews not to harass or attack either the Moabites or Ammonites (descendents of these two daughters and Lot) as God had chosen to give part of the land as a possession to Lot's descendents. So God didn't just bless Lot in his lifetime, but also blessed his descendents, regardless of how they came to be. Grace yet again.

Then come up again to 2 Peter 2:7 and we find him indeed described as a righteous man who was grieved over the evil going on around him, yet he chose to stay for some reason we're not privy to.

So then perhaps we need to ask a different question... because by actions alone can we call him Righteous? Peter does... So what then makes a man Righteous in the eyes of God?

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#458578 - 01/14/14 09:03 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Jacob S]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: Jacob S
It's an interesting passage from a psychological point of view. According to Lot, both of his daughters were virgins (19:8). So the implications is that the daughters chose to have their first sexual experience with their father. Of course, Lot had previously shown that he considered the sexuality of his daughters to be completely under his control (again 19:8) including offering them up to gang rape. Such an offer would have made anyone feel invalidated and powerless. If a parent says "your body belongs to me, I can force you to have sex with whoever I want," then it is not really surprising that the child has an incorrect view of what is and isn't acceptable. It is also not surprising that if they are taught the sexuality is about power that they would want to take back that power from the one who took it from them. Lot taught his children that sex didn't require consent, and that "lesson" ended up coming back to bite him. I don't believe rape is ever an acceptable punishment of course, but there is a certain amount of "you reap what you sow" in the story.

Lot was lying to begin with. His daughters were not virgins. Traditional Hebrew law requires sex of the bride and groom as part of the wedding ceremony itself. The charge to "be fruitful and multiply" was taken seriously. If they didn't have sex, they weren't married. As part of the ceremony, the couple would enter a room to consummate the marriage whilst the wedding party waited outside celebrating. The groom then handed over a bloodied "proof of virginity cloth" to a witness. It was then that the actual ceremony was over and the rest was party and celebration.

Quote:
“Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man ; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes:” Genesis 19:8

Quote:
“And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters , and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.” - Genesis 19:14

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#458579 - 01/14/14 09:34 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
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Originally Posted By: JustScott

So then perhaps we need to ask a different question... because by actions alone can we call him Righteous? Peter does... So what then makes a man Righteous in the eyes of God?


Well we can use that same chapter to see what righteousness means to Peter at least. He spends a large part of 2 Peter 2 describing the unrighteous, placing Noah and Lot as figures that contrast an unrighteous world. In v. 20-21, he says "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them." We can therefore gather that to Peter righteousness is "knowing the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and "following the sacred command that was passed on to them." Knowing and following. Now Lot wouldn't have been aware of Jesus, so is Peter is being anachronistic? Maybe, but he also says Lot "was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard." So to Peter's mind, righteousness is defined not by righteous action per se but by having a soul that shrinks from wicked actions . . . a desire Lot felt but that could only be fulfilled (in Peter's view) by Jesus Christ -- who, Peter argues in his earlier letter, conveyed righteous on the segment of the unrighteous who were willing to accept Christ as their soul's "shepherd and overseer" (1 Peter 2:21-25).

Peter's examples in 2 Peter 2 are Lot and Noah. In Genesis 9:18-27, there's a story that has some parallels to the story of Lot and his daughter. It's not by any means an exact replica but there are enough elements (following a disaster, patriarch gets drunk, gets naked, children have a decision to make about how to deal with it) that it is interesting. Both cases reveal the human frailty of the men and touch on issues of familial boundaries.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#458580 - 01/14/14 09:42 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Rich918]
Jacob S Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rich918
Lot was lying to begin with. His daughters were not virgins. Traditional Hebrew law requires sex of the bride and groom as part of the wedding ceremony itself.


You could be right. Lot was a contemporary of Abraham, so "traditional Hebrew law" didn't exist yet. Speaking of traditional Hebrew, the traditional explanation for this conundrum is that some of Lot's daughters were married and some were not. The daughters he offered were virgins, but then he goes and talks to his older daughters' husbands. One point in support of that is that in most ancient societies, a father had control of a daughter only until she was married. He would not have had the "right" to offer his married daughters for sex... their husbands would have had the final say.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

Top
#458585 - 01/14/14 11:34 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Very true, this is indeed Pre-Hebrew Tradition. Although Hebrew history does support the notion that Lot had 4 daughters, 2 married and 2 unmarried. Rich is correct though in that in Hebrew custom the marriage involved consummation. Although this wasn't strictly a Hebrew custom either, if we look to Jacob and Esau (Isaac's Sons) Jacob went into who he "thought" was the woman he wanted but was deceived and in the darkness consummated a marriage with the older sister of the woman he wanted to marry.... then was forced to work 7 more years to actually get the woman he wanted.

I agree with your assessment of "Righteousness", which of course is supported elsewhere. Paul even talks about Abraham being declared righteous when he "believed" IE: Trusted in God and not through actions or works. Even though we know that after said declaration, Abraham did things that we wouldn't consider righteous, which goes back to the understanding that it isn't of works, but of faith.

Which of course takes us to our assessment of Lot. Lot believes in God obviously, and the sin around him grieved his heart... but his choice to live among though most definitely affected him and His family for sure.

Ultimately no man is righteous apart from the work of Jesus. By Grace, through Faith. OT people, like Lot, Abraham, Noah, and others had Faith in God. As it is today. Christ's Blood is what paid for and covered the sin of the world, Past, Present, and Future.

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#458589 - 01/14/14 01:02 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
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I'm not sure the entire NT is consistent on that. I think an argument can be made that the letters of John and James (as well as parts of the gospels) differ with Paul and Peter on the role grace plays. I'm not saying that I am sure about that (I do understand that there is also the interpretation that the John/James focus on works is simply talking about the fruit of righteousness rather than the heart of it), but I think there is room for doubt about whether or not pauline grace is really a consistent message across all new testament authors.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

Top
#458593 - 01/14/14 01:38 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Revelations rewards "every man according as his work." (22:12)

"Any "father" that hands over their own kin (whether they are virgin or not; whether they are married or not) for the very purpose of being raped is no father at all... And no amount of "faith", "grace" or "works" can justify it. Every developed nation on earth now recognizes it as an abomination against human rights no matter what excuse is given.

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#458594 - 01/14/14 02:38 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Rich918]
Jacob S Offline
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Let me clarify that, at least for my part, I was simply trying to parse out Peter's argument as it pertained to the question Scott asked. Whether the argument holds up under scrutiny is of course a different matter.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

Top
#458596 - 01/14/14 03:21 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
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I don't believe his actions were anywhere condoned, or justified in any way. It was a horrible action, period.

Yes, Revelation does say "12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

But when you look deeper, you find there are two different groups at the judgement. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life, and Those who are not. Not matter which you fall into, you will be rewarded according to your work. That Reward is not a determination of Salvation or Damnation. For Salvation is not a Reward, it is a gift, one that cannot be earned or bought.

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#458599 - 01/14/14 05:25 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: JustScott
I don't believe his actions were anywhere condoned, or justified in any way.

Nor were they ever criticized; instead, they were all glazed over when praising him as a just and righteous man. After all....

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: “ - II Timothy 3:16

Not some scripture, but all scripture. Therefore, it leads one to believe that it was fully endorsed since not a peep even pretends to rebuke it.

Originally Posted By: JustScott
For Salvation is not a Reward, it is a gift, one that cannot be earned or bought.

If it was a gift, then why were there two different groups to begin with? God is not a respecter of persons. A gift is a gift is a gift. If salvation is a gift, then nobody really needs to do anything.

But, salvation is not the gift... grace is the gift or the vehicle by which one is awarded salvation.

“For by grace are ye saved (salvation) through faith.” - Ephesians 2:8

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” - Philippians 2:12

“And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work , pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:” - I Peter 1:17

Without respect of persons means that grace, faith, obedience... none of that can even apply. No matter who you are or what you believe, judgement is based upon what you have done. If there is no respect of persons, that is the only basis upon which to judge.

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#458607 - 01/14/14 06:49 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
God does not condone rape of any sort . The very example of Davids sons and the rape of Tamar is a perfect example. There is always a consequence for sin . Your judgment and Gods judgment are not even in the same realm sense God has a righteous judgement and a perfect and Holy judgement so any idea of what judgement looks like here on earth is a feeble attempt to know the mind of God.

The thing i thinks is being missed is that God is going to have a righteous judgment that Intel's the best possible result for everyone that includes future aspects that we can not even see or consider. God is not going to let these things go without punishment he never has he never will it is impossible because he is righteous.
You may not even see the results or punishment in your lifetime or even agree with his judgment if you are lucky enough to see it handed down.
But make not mistake about it there will be punishment. The hell and chaos that Davids house endured because of his own sin is down right crazy. The inescapable consequences for the rape of Tamar were undeniable.




2 Samuel 13

New Living Translation (NLT)
The Rape of Tamar

13 Now David’s son Absalom had a beautiful sister named Tamar. And Amnon, her half brother, fell desperately in love with her. 2 Amnon became so obsessed with Tamar that he became ill. She was a virgin, and Amnon thought he could never have her.

3 But Amnon had a very crafty friend—his cousin Jonadab. He was the son of David’s brother Shimea.[a] 4 One day Jonadab said to Amnon, “What’s the trouble? Why should the son of a king look so dejected morning after morning?”

So Amnon told him, “I am in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”

5 “Well,” Jonadab said, “I’ll tell you what to do. Go back to bed and pretend you are ill. When your father comes to see you, ask him to let Tamar come and prepare some food for you. Tell him you’ll feel better if she prepares it as you watch and feeds you with her own hands.”

6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be sick. And when the king came to see him, Amnon asked him, “Please let my sister Tamar come and cook my favorite dish[b] as I watch. Then I can eat it from her own hands.” 7 So David agreed and sent Tamar to Amnon’s house to prepare some food for him.

8 When Tamar arrived at Amnon’s house, she went to the place where he was lying down so he could watch her mix some dough. Then she baked his favorite dish for him. 9 But when she set the serving tray before him, he refused to eat. “Everyone get out of here,” Amnon told his servants. So they all left.

10 Then he said to Tamar, “Now bring the food into my bedroom and feed it to me here.” So Tamar took his favorite dish to him. 11 But as she was feeding him, he grabbed her and demanded, “Come to bed with me, my darling sister.”

12 “No, my brother!” she cried. “Don’t be foolish! Don’t do this to me! Such wicked things aren’t done in Israel. 13 Where could I go in my shame? And you would be called one of the greatest fools in Israel. Please, just speak to the king about it, and he will let you marry me.”

14 But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he raped her. 15 Then suddenly Amnon’s love turned to hate, and he hated her even more than he had loved her. “Get out of here!” he snarled at her.

16 “No, no!” Tamar cried. “Sending me away now is worse than what you’ve already done to me.”

But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her. 17 He shouted for his servant and demanded, “Throw this woman out, and lock the door behind her!”

18 So the servant put her out and locked the door behind her. She was wearing a long, beautiful robe,[c] as was the custom in those days for the king’s virgin daughters. 19 But now Tamar tore her robe and put ashes on her head. And then, with her face in her hands, she went away crying.

20 Her brother Absalom saw her and asked, “Is it true that Amnon has been with you? Well, my sister, keep quiet for now, since he’s your brother. Don’t you worry about it.” So Tamar lived as a desolate woman in her brother Absalom’s house.

21 When King David heard what had happened, he was very angry.[d] 22 And though Absalom never spoke to Amnon about this, he hated Amnon deeply because of what he had done to his sister.

You can not rationalize God or put him a box. God did not have to send his son to die . What other King leaves his thrown ? To come down as a servant to show us all how to live as Christ. The gift is in fact Free maintaining it by working the gifts talents and abilities he has given us. Just as you give a gift it would still have to be maintained . The working out your salvation with fear and trembling is to enable us to continue in the faith . Because the enemy is always trying to get us to doubt it and to turn from our faith in Christ and the gift he in fact freely gave us when he went to the cross to atone for All sin.

You can not just take one scripture and make it fit what you are trying to relate. You must read above and below to understand the MEANING of said Context.

Quote:
it leads one to believe that it was fully endorsed since not a peep even pretends to rebuke it.


Highly speculative and with out merit. It should read it leads YOU to believe.
Quote:
If it was a gift, then why were there two different groups to begin with? God is not a respecter of persons. A gift is a gift is a gift. If salvation is a gift, then nobody really needs to do anything.

But, salvation is not the gift... grace is the gift or the vehicle by which one is awarded salvation.



You can ask the question but just because you do not have the answer or the answer has not been revealed to you by God does not mean you can just insert your own assumption

It is a gift so no one can say they did this or that to obtain it .

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 5:15 , "But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." Here, the free gift of salvation is contrasted with human sin. Our own efforts cannot earn us God's gift of salvation. It is given only by faith in His Son Jesus Christ
How is salvation a gift? First, it cannot be earned. It is received by faith. Second, the result of salvation is wonderful—eternal life! John 3:16 promises, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Romans 6:23 adds, "the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."


Edited by nltsaved (01/14/14 06:50 PM)
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http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
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#458612 - 01/14/14 08:21 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2575
I believe NLT has very poignantly pointed out the reason there are two groups.

To make it a little simpler thbough, just because someone offers you a gift, does not mean you have to take it. Ultimately the gift that is available (as Jacob pointed out) is knowing Jesus, and more specifically knowing God.

In order to know, truly know someone you have to be in a relationship with them.

That is what has been offered.

The work of Jesus cleared the barriers to a relationship with God. It's paid for our sin, the thing that separated us from God in the first place.

So now the way is open, however God will not force you into a relationship with Him. That is the choice one makes when they put their faith in Christ.

At the end, the two groups are simply those who were reconciled to God, and those who were not. Those who entered into a relationship with God, and those who said, "no thanks.".

Just because God doesn't step in right when we think He should and deliver justice and punishment, doesn't mean He's never going to do it. Those who choose to reject the Grace God has offered as a gift, will have to answer for it them self someday.

No sin goes unpunished. It either will be counted punished through the suffering and shed blood of Jesus, or a person will have to deal with it them self.

Back to the "rewarded for what they have done." Those who are reconciled to God through the Christ, will be rewarded for what they did or didn't do in service to God. Those who choose to deal with their sin them self, will be "rewarded" for their sinful actions.


Edited by JustScott (01/14/14 09:33 PM)

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#458614 - 01/14/14 09:00 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
amen
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#458622 - 01/14/14 10:15 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: nltsaved]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 594
Originally Posted By: nltsaved
God does not condone rape of any sort .


Well, not quite.
Judges 21:10-24 (forced marriage IS rape)
Numbers 31:18 "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
Deut 20:10-14
Deut 21:10-14 "if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house . . . if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom . . . since she was married to you under compulsion."

and the punishment for rape is death for the victim if she does not cry out (Deutoronomy 22:23-24). Knowing what we know about how many of us were silent during our assault, by OT law many people on this site would be condemned to death if they were women (though actually any of us who were abused by a male would be condemned to death regardless of consent because Mosaic law doesn't seem to recognize the possibility of male-on-male rape).


Edited by Jacob S (01/14/14 10:25 PM)
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#458623 - 01/14/14 10:22 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 594
Originally Posted By: JustScott


Back to the "rewarded for what they have done." Those who are reconciled to God through the Christ, will be rewarded for what they did or didn't do in service to God. Those who choose to deal with their sin them self, will be "rewarded" for their sinful actions.


I think that is one explanation, though I'm not sure that isn't adding some extra-textual synthesis onto the discrepancy. Matthew 24, I John 3, James 2 and like Rich said Rev 22 advocate for a works-based eternal reward. Reconciling it with the grace passages only makes sense if we start with the assumption that all the NT authors must agree with each other. If we simply look at the different texts themselves, the notion that they are in fact disagreeing with each other is a valid conclusion.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#458629 - 01/14/14 11:32 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: nltsaved
God does not condone rape of any sort . The very example of Davids sons and the rape of Tamar is a perfect example. There is always a consequence for sin . Your judgment and Gods judgment are not even in the same realm sense God has a righteous judgement and a perfect and Holy judgement so any idea of what judgement looks like here on earth is a feeble attempt to know the mind of God.

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - Numbers 31:17-18

A bunch of war weary soldiers coming home brimming with testosterone, dividing the women up like cattle... what do you think they would do with a bunch of nubile virgins? By law, it was forbidden to marry a Midian, and even if they could, why would they cooperate after just watching them slaughter their families?

A similar occurance is listed in Judges 21, wherein the tribe of Benjamin is instructed to lie in wait to kidnap women to be their wives.

Nowhere in scripture is this ever denounced, but it goes out of its way to deliver instant death for the human error of tripping when carrying the ark of the covenant. Silence about it IS the condonation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grace is the gift, not salvation. Grace leads to salvation. There are many requirements for salvation beyond simple grace, therefore it is not a gift but, indeed, earned.

“Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved.” - Proverbs 28:18

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” - Mark 16:16

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” - James2:24

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:13

In some cases, you don't even need to believe. Just be around people who do...

“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” - Acts 16:31

“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.” - I Corinthians 7:14

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” - Matthew 16.27
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A perfect god creates an imperfect man then blames his own imperfect creation for being imperfect. If he was perfect to begin with, his perfect integrity would not allow him to do such shoddy work.

… unless that was the plan all along. Since it's all predestined anyway, the very concept of salvation is moot...

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” - Ephesians 1:4-5

“I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” - Isaiah 45:6-7

“The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” - Proverbs 16:4

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” - Romans 9:18

You've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk? crazy

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#458632 - 01/15/14 12:53 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
thank god i'm not god.
i don't make the rules.
i have a hard enough time following and figuring them out.


p.s. i am loving all this scripture.
plenty of study for me.
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#458638 - 01/15/14 03:50 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: victor-victim]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
thank god i'm not god.
i don't make the rules.
i have a hard enough time following and figuring them out.


p.s. i am loving all this scripture.
plenty of study for me.


“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.” - Luke 18:17

A grown man cannot figure it out, yet we are supposed to have faith as a little child.

But then again, we are admonished...

“Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.” - I Corinthians 14:20

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” - I Thessalonians 5:21

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:” - Isaiah 1:18

Reason is the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought (what would a human being be without it?). To understand is to have a comprehensible grasp of knowledge. Since there is no proof that heaven or hell exist, there is no logical, rational, or analytical reason to believe them. Therefore, the only way to believe them is to purposely abandon reason.

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#458646 - 01/15/14 11:40 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
unfortunately, i can't know everything,
and the more i learn, the less i understand.
reason and faith help me connect the dots and fill in the gaps between the facts.

i have faith in my reason,
and reason behind my faith.
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#458768 - 01/16/14 10:57 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Rich918]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo

Quote:
A grown man cannot figure it out, yet we are supposed to have faith as a little child.


Well i am a grown man and i have figured it out and apparently many around the world have to.

Reason is the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought (what would a human being be without it?). To understand is to have a comprehensible grasp of knowledge. Since there is no proof that heaven or hell exist, there is no logical, rational, or analytical reason to believe them. Therefore, the only way to believe them is to purposely abandon reason.


You do not have to abandon reason to believe, you are trying to come at this being wise in your own eyes thinking you can exalt you wisdom above the most high. Your wisdom and your logic can not even come close to the wisdom of God and instead of taking scripture completely out of context with one sentence or one verse with out the context to support it I will give you the context and the scripture to back up what i am talking about.

1 Corinthians
A Church Divided Over Leaders

10I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,a in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasb ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
c

20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”


Your Scriptures are out of context from which they come and it seems as if you have not studied the scripture but do a nice copy and paste job to try to support your answers.

Yet those who are believers and continue to read the scriptures are seeking to know the meaning and to understand the will of God not trying to refute the meaning and the will of God
So this puts us in a different mindset.
So to go back and fourth on the grounds as one group trying to understand God and seeking the will of God and the another trying to refute it undermined and undo it
is well frankly unproductive.

We could go on for ever but seeing how this is all Foolishness to you , I ask what is the point ? what is your objective? For the Gospel to believers is Power and the objective behind trying to share it is to bring hope and power to those who know not of it . Where as your goal seems to bring DISSENSION and factions “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause division and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good works and fair speeches, DECEIVE the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.” (Rom 16:17-20)




Edited by nltsaved (01/16/14 11:07 PM)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#458781 - 01/17/14 01:52 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: nltsaved

Quote:
A grown man cannot figure it out, yet we are supposed to have faith as a little child.

Well i am a grown man and i have figured it out and apparently many around the world have to.

Quote:
Reason is the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought (what would a human being be without it?). To understand is to have a comprehensible grasp of knowledge. Since there is no proof that heaven or hell exist, there is no logical, rational, or analytical reason to believe them. Therefore, the only way to believe them is to purposely abandon reason.

You do not have to abandon reason to believe, you are trying to come at this being wise in your own eyes thinking you can exalt you wisdom above the most high. Your wisdom and your logic can not even come close to the wisdom of God and instead of taking scripture completely out of context with one sentence or one verse with out the context to support it I will give you the context and the scripture to back up what i am talking about.


Religion claims authority simply by saying so. (“Its in the [insert religious writ of choice here] so it must be so.”) Based upon literature of a book written in the Bronze Age, it supports only the contents of that same book. It is nowhere evident in the real world in which we actually live. Since there is no proof (you can cite none whatsoever), then of course, you must abondon reason, for there is no reasoning to be grasped.

The Bible itself has laid down the criteria for proving whether a "god" is real (in I Kings 18:19-39), and then demonstrated the punishment for those who teach about false gods. The "god" in question has to prove its existence through demonstrable actions in our world (yes, the real world in which we actually live). The reason that Ahab's people were supposed to believe in God rather than Baal is because, on command, God proved his existence. Baal did nothing. The fact that Baal did nothing proved that he did not exist. What happened to the prophets of the false god Baal? Predictably, they were slaughtered in verse 40.

The Bible that we have is provably incorrect and is obviously the work of primitive men rather than a god. God has never left any physical evidence of his existence on earth anywhere, ever. None of Jesus' "miracles" left any physical evidence on earth anywhere, ever. And there is no more reason to believe it than there is to believe that a hobbit helped to slay a dragon. Even by the Bible's own criteria, God fails to be God.

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” - I Thessalonians 5:21

If you believe in God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today. It is quite likely that you rejected these other gods without ever looking into their religions or reading their books. You simply absorbed the dominant faith in your home or in the society you grew up in. You, too, are atheist... toward Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Baal, et al.

"I contend that we are both atheist. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts

Religion, with all its tenets, rules and absolutes, seeks to retain only the status quo. Religion does not seek understanding; it seeks the control of understanding. Religion does not seek conscience; it seeks dictation. Just 25 years ago, physicians believed that talking about sexual abuse could do more harm to the victim than good. Where would any of us be if this was rigidly upheld? Where would this site be?

Religion cannot change lest it loses its self-claimed "authority" on truth. Changes in knowledge and understanding make the evolution of values necessary. Spirituality seeks growth of understanding. Outdated notions and irrelevant laws do not promote the growth of understanding anything.

Religion is dependent upon hierarchal authority in its structure, dependent upon subservience and obedience, regardless of the personalities of kindly old men or aggressive dictators. Church is a political body, thats why its capitalized. No one speaks of separation of spirituality and State because spirituality does not seek (nor does it need) to create a State.

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#458788 - 01/17/14 04:20 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
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Dear gents,
I'd like to kindly ask and firmly demand from all of you to keep focus on original topic and theme.

Also it seems that there is a need to remind you for our policy for posting in this part. Considering recent developments we are particularly concerned for situations where couple of sides are bringing here arguments about the validity of one's religious beliefs. No matter on our differences ton must remain respectful to other's beliefs and opinions.
It is prerequisite of personal healing and recovery to be open toward other brothers survivors and their opinions.

If some of you have unresolved issues please try to discuss and resolve it in more private environment.

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#458803 - 01/17/14 10:15 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
Thank you for your efforts. I am sure it is difficult to moderate these forrums. I admit have gotten out of character and have gotten away from my integrity . I apologize for any and all offences I know I have caused. I will get back to doing what I do best and that is encourage uplift and be here for those who seek answers that pertain to the things I am knowledgeable in . Thank you
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#458893 - 01/18/14 02:42 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
the topic is Female on Male rape in the Bible

here is the original post so we can get back on topic.

Originally Posted By: JustScott
Quote:
Genesis 19:30-38

Lot and His Daughters

30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.[a] He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.[b] He is the father of the Ammonites to this day.


Emphasis mine.

I've known this story for a LONG time and yet, not until recently did it occur to me that this constituted rape. They got him drunk, and while he was passed out used him in order to become pregnant. Aside from their getting pregnant, he never knew it had occurred.

Thoughts?


what i find fascinating is how the bible does not coverup the sins and crimes and mistakes of it's most holy and righteous people. they are imperfect and flawed. they are human.



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#458922 - 01/18/14 11:28 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Vedder32 Offline


Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 22
Loc: Kentucky,U..S.A
I remember coming across this passage several times in my life and thinking...wow their crazy. Than several years ago I attended a sermon with my aunt just for the simple reason I could spend time with my aunt.

My relationship with the preacher and the congregation can be best described as non existent. I can remember when my aunt started attending this "cult" that my relationship with her started to change and so did my life.No longer did I receive any emotional support from her but rather a scolding and put downs on how to be a "Man."

Not to mention the man who abused me attended his congregation one day. So I decided to intervene and make sure the perp didn't touch another child. The preacher just used this opportunity to magnify himself as a "man".

The odd thing is, the sermon centered around this passage and it dawned on me...this was well orchestrated by my aunt and her preacher to pin the abuse on me. For the simple fact, I've never testified of the lord jesus christ and how great god is ever since my sexual abuse but the perp did that day in church.

I find that people who follow one way are destined to live one way and it's a toxic cycle of abuse. The sad thing is, I am sure that god has some good followers but I haven't met one in my whole life time.

P.S. Your absolutely correct on the bible not covering up the sins and mistakes of it's most holy and righteous people.

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#459923 - 02/01/14 11:25 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Vedder32]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: Vedder32
P.S. Your absolutely correct on the bible not covering up the sins and mistakes of it's most holy and righteous people.


amen.

even jesus had his moments.

anger, fear, pain.

and it is all recorded.
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