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#458607 - 01/14/14 06:49 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 856
Loc: Kc,Mo
God does not condone rape of any sort . The very example of Davids sons and the rape of Tamar is a perfect example. There is always a consequence for sin . Your judgment and Gods judgment are not even in the same realm sense God has a righteous judgement and a perfect and Holy judgement so any idea of what judgement looks like here on earth is a feeble attempt to know the mind of God.

The thing i thinks is being missed is that God is going to have a righteous judgment that Intel's the best possible result for everyone that includes future aspects that we can not even see or consider. God is not going to let these things go without punishment he never has he never will it is impossible because he is righteous.
You may not even see the results or punishment in your lifetime or even agree with his judgment if you are lucky enough to see it handed down.
But make not mistake about it there will be punishment. The hell and chaos that Davids house endured because of his own sin is down right crazy. The inescapable consequences for the rape of Tamar were undeniable.




2 Samuel 13

New Living Translation (NLT)
The Rape of Tamar

13 Now David’s son Absalom had a beautiful sister named Tamar. And Amnon, her half brother, fell desperately in love with her. 2 Amnon became so obsessed with Tamar that he became ill. She was a virgin, and Amnon thought he could never have her.

3 But Amnon had a very crafty friend—his cousin Jonadab. He was the son of David’s brother Shimea.[a] 4 One day Jonadab said to Amnon, “What’s the trouble? Why should the son of a king look so dejected morning after morning?”

So Amnon told him, “I am in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”

5 “Well,” Jonadab said, “I’ll tell you what to do. Go back to bed and pretend you are ill. When your father comes to see you, ask him to let Tamar come and prepare some food for you. Tell him you’ll feel better if she prepares it as you watch and feeds you with her own hands.”

6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be sick. And when the king came to see him, Amnon asked him, “Please let my sister Tamar come and cook my favorite dish[b] as I watch. Then I can eat it from her own hands.” 7 So David agreed and sent Tamar to Amnon’s house to prepare some food for him.

8 When Tamar arrived at Amnon’s house, she went to the place where he was lying down so he could watch her mix some dough. Then she baked his favorite dish for him. 9 But when she set the serving tray before him, he refused to eat. “Everyone get out of here,” Amnon told his servants. So they all left.

10 Then he said to Tamar, “Now bring the food into my bedroom and feed it to me here.” So Tamar took his favorite dish to him. 11 But as she was feeding him, he grabbed her and demanded, “Come to bed with me, my darling sister.”

12 “No, my brother!” she cried. “Don’t be foolish! Don’t do this to me! Such wicked things aren’t done in Israel. 13 Where could I go in my shame? And you would be called one of the greatest fools in Israel. Please, just speak to the king about it, and he will let you marry me.”

14 But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he raped her. 15 Then suddenly Amnon’s love turned to hate, and he hated her even more than he had loved her. “Get out of here!” he snarled at her.

16 “No, no!” Tamar cried. “Sending me away now is worse than what you’ve already done to me.”

But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her. 17 He shouted for his servant and demanded, “Throw this woman out, and lock the door behind her!”

18 So the servant put her out and locked the door behind her. She was wearing a long, beautiful robe,[c] as was the custom in those days for the king’s virgin daughters. 19 But now Tamar tore her robe and put ashes on her head. And then, with her face in her hands, she went away crying.

20 Her brother Absalom saw her and asked, “Is it true that Amnon has been with you? Well, my sister, keep quiet for now, since he’s your brother. Don’t you worry about it.” So Tamar lived as a desolate woman in her brother Absalom’s house.

21 When King David heard what had happened, he was very angry.[d] 22 And though Absalom never spoke to Amnon about this, he hated Amnon deeply because of what he had done to his sister.

You can not rationalize God or put him a box. God did not have to send his son to die . What other King leaves his thrown ? To come down as a servant to show us all how to live as Christ. The gift is in fact Free maintaining it by working the gifts talents and abilities he has given us. Just as you give a gift it would still have to be maintained . The working out your salvation with fear and trembling is to enable us to continue in the faith . Because the enemy is always trying to get us to doubt it and to turn from our faith in Christ and the gift he in fact freely gave us when he went to the cross to atone for All sin.

You can not just take one scripture and make it fit what you are trying to relate. You must read above and below to understand the MEANING of said Context.

Quote:
it leads one to believe that it was fully endorsed since not a peep even pretends to rebuke it.


Highly speculative and with out merit. It should read it leads YOU to believe.
Quote:
If it was a gift, then why were there two different groups to begin with? God is not a respecter of persons. A gift is a gift is a gift. If salvation is a gift, then nobody really needs to do anything.

But, salvation is not the gift... grace is the gift or the vehicle by which one is awarded salvation.



You can ask the question but just because you do not have the answer or the answer has not been revealed to you by God does not mean you can just insert your own assumption

It is a gift so no one can say they did this or that to obtain it .

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 5:15 , "But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." Here, the free gift of salvation is contrasted with human sin. Our own efforts cannot earn us God's gift of salvation. It is given only by faith in His Son Jesus Christ
How is salvation a gift? First, it cannot be earned. It is received by faith. Second, the result of salvation is wonderful—eternal life! John 3:16 promises, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Romans 6:23 adds, "the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."


Edited by nltsaved (01/14/14 06:50 PM)
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#458612 - 01/14/14 08:21 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I believe NLT has very poignantly pointed out the reason there are two groups.

To make it a little simpler thbough, just because someone offers you a gift, does not mean you have to take it. Ultimately the gift that is available (as Jacob pointed out) is knowing Jesus, and more specifically knowing God.

In order to know, truly know someone you have to be in a relationship with them.

That is what has been offered.

The work of Jesus cleared the barriers to a relationship with God. It's paid for our sin, the thing that separated us from God in the first place.

So now the way is open, however God will not force you into a relationship with Him. That is the choice one makes when they put their faith in Christ.

At the end, the two groups are simply those who were reconciled to God, and those who were not. Those who entered into a relationship with God, and those who said, "no thanks.".

Just because God doesn't step in right when we think He should and deliver justice and punishment, doesn't mean He's never going to do it. Those who choose to reject the Grace God has offered as a gift, will have to answer for it them self someday.

No sin goes unpunished. It either will be counted punished through the suffering and shed blood of Jesus, or a person will have to deal with it them self.

Back to the "rewarded for what they have done." Those who are reconciled to God through the Christ, will be rewarded for what they did or didn't do in service to God. Those who choose to deal with their sin them self, will be "rewarded" for their sinful actions.


Edited by JustScott (01/14/14 09:33 PM)

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#458614 - 01/14/14 09:00 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3601
Loc: O Kanada
amen
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#458622 - 01/14/14 10:15 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: nltsaved]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
Originally Posted By: nltsaved
God does not condone rape of any sort .


Well, not quite.
Judges 21:10-24 (forced marriage IS rape)
Numbers 31:18 "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
Deut 20:10-14
Deut 21:10-14 "if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house . . . if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom . . . since she was married to you under compulsion."

and the punishment for rape is death for the victim if she does not cry out (Deutoronomy 22:23-24). Knowing what we know about how many of us were silent during our assault, by OT law many people on this site would be condemned to death if they were women (though actually any of us who were abused by a male would be condemned to death regardless of consent because Mosaic law doesn't seem to recognize the possibility of male-on-male rape).


Edited by Jacob S (01/14/14 10:25 PM)
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#458623 - 01/14/14 10:22 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
Originally Posted By: JustScott


Back to the "rewarded for what they have done." Those who are reconciled to God through the Christ, will be rewarded for what they did or didn't do in service to God. Those who choose to deal with their sin them self, will be "rewarded" for their sinful actions.


I think that is one explanation, though I'm not sure that isn't adding some extra-textual synthesis onto the discrepancy. Matthew 24, I John 3, James 2 and like Rich said Rev 22 advocate for a works-based eternal reward. Reconciling it with the grace passages only makes sense if we start with the assumption that all the NT authors must agree with each other. If we simply look at the different texts themselves, the notion that they are in fact disagreeing with each other is a valid conclusion.
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#458629 - 01/14/14 11:32 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: nltsaved
God does not condone rape of any sort . The very example of Davids sons and the rape of Tamar is a perfect example. There is always a consequence for sin . Your judgment and Gods judgment are not even in the same realm sense God has a righteous judgement and a perfect and Holy judgement so any idea of what judgement looks like here on earth is a feeble attempt to know the mind of God.

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - Numbers 31:17-18

A bunch of war weary soldiers coming home brimming with testosterone, dividing the women up like cattle... what do you think they would do with a bunch of nubile virgins? By law, it was forbidden to marry a Midian, and even if they could, why would they cooperate after just watching them slaughter their families?

A similar occurance is listed in Judges 21, wherein the tribe of Benjamin is instructed to lie in wait to kidnap women to be their wives.

Nowhere in scripture is this ever denounced, but it goes out of its way to deliver instant death for the human error of tripping when carrying the ark of the covenant. Silence about it IS the condonation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grace is the gift, not salvation. Grace leads to salvation. There are many requirements for salvation beyond simple grace, therefore it is not a gift but, indeed, earned.

“Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved.” - Proverbs 28:18

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” - Mark 16:16

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” - James2:24

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:13

In some cases, you don't even need to believe. Just be around people who do...

“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” - Acts 16:31

“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.” - I Corinthians 7:14

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” - Matthew 16.27
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A perfect god creates an imperfect man then blames his own imperfect creation for being imperfect. If he was perfect to begin with, his perfect integrity would not allow him to do such shoddy work.

… unless that was the plan all along. Since it's all predestined anyway, the very concept of salvation is moot...

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” - Ephesians 1:4-5

“I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” - Isaiah 45:6-7

“The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” - Proverbs 16:4

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” - Romans 9:18

You've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk? crazy

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#458632 - 01/15/14 12:53 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3601
Loc: O Kanada
thank god i'm not god.
i don't make the rules.
i have a hard enough time following and figuring them out.


p.s. i am loving all this scripture.
plenty of study for me.
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#458638 - 01/15/14 03:50 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: victor-victim]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
thank god i'm not god.
i don't make the rules.
i have a hard enough time following and figuring them out.


p.s. i am loving all this scripture.
plenty of study for me.


“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.” - Luke 18:17

A grown man cannot figure it out, yet we are supposed to have faith as a little child.

But then again, we are admonished...

“Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.” - I Corinthians 14:20

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” - I Thessalonians 5:21

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:” - Isaiah 1:18

Reason is the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought (what would a human being be without it?). To understand is to have a comprehensible grasp of knowledge. Since there is no proof that heaven or hell exist, there is no logical, rational, or analytical reason to believe them. Therefore, the only way to believe them is to purposely abandon reason.

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#458646 - 01/15/14 11:40 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3601
Loc: O Kanada
unfortunately, i can't know everything,
and the more i learn, the less i understand.
reason and faith help me connect the dots and fill in the gaps between the facts.

i have faith in my reason,
and reason behind my faith.
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#458768 - 01/16/14 10:57 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Rich918]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 856
Loc: Kc,Mo

Quote:
A grown man cannot figure it out, yet we are supposed to have faith as a little child.


Well i am a grown man and i have figured it out and apparently many around the world have to.

Reason is the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought (what would a human being be without it?). To understand is to have a comprehensible grasp of knowledge. Since there is no proof that heaven or hell exist, there is no logical, rational, or analytical reason to believe them. Therefore, the only way to believe them is to purposely abandon reason.


You do not have to abandon reason to believe, you are trying to come at this being wise in your own eyes thinking you can exalt you wisdom above the most high. Your wisdom and your logic can not even come close to the wisdom of God and instead of taking scripture completely out of context with one sentence or one verse with out the context to support it I will give you the context and the scripture to back up what i am talking about.

1 Corinthians
A Church Divided Over Leaders

10I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,a in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasb ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
c

20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”


Your Scriptures are out of context from which they come and it seems as if you have not studied the scripture but do a nice copy and paste job to try to support your answers.

Yet those who are believers and continue to read the scriptures are seeking to know the meaning and to understand the will of God not trying to refute the meaning and the will of God
So this puts us in a different mindset.
So to go back and fourth on the grounds as one group trying to understand God and seeking the will of God and the another trying to refute it undermined and undo it
is well frankly unproductive.

We could go on for ever but seeing how this is all Foolishness to you , I ask what is the point ? what is your objective? For the Gospel to believers is Power and the objective behind trying to share it is to bring hope and power to those who know not of it . Where as your goal seems to bring DISSENSION and factions “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause division and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good works and fair speeches, DECEIVE the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.” (Rom 16:17-20)




Edited by nltsaved (01/16/14 11:07 PM)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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