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#458575 - 01/14/14 08:22 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I see both ends and views here. The girls were definitely raised in an environment where sexual activity (such as throwing your daughters to the wolves and gang raping visitors) was an every day occurrence.

So yes they seem to have thought little of this activity.

However that being said, I don't believe what they did was an act of revenge or getting back at anyone. They wanted to have have children and believed no man would have them or possibly the destruction was so bad they thought there were no other men perhaps (I've heard both views)? I believe they knew full well their father would never agree, so they conspired to get him drunk in order to get what they wanted.

I find it interesting that God spared Lot, considering he was a man who would throw his own daughters out to a mob to be gang raped when the whole premise before we get to this event is a dialog with Abraham pleading for the cities if only 10 righteous men could be found..... Which apparently in that city wasn't the case, as those that did survive certainly didn't seem to fall into that category. It was almost as if God was showing grace and mercy on behalf of Lot being Abraham's Nephew. Yet if we look at his action, he was trying to protect the visitors... But what a tangled web is woven when we would allow one crime in place of preventing another. Such is the way of sin.

Interestingly enough though, come up to Deuteronomy and we see God commanding the Hebrews not to harass or attack either the Moabites or Ammonites (descendents of these two daughters and Lot) as God had chosen to give part of the land as a possession to Lot's descendents. So God didn't just bless Lot in his lifetime, but also blessed his descendents, regardless of how they came to be. Grace yet again.

Then come up again to 2 Peter 2:7 and we find him indeed described as a righteous man who was grieved over the evil going on around him, yet he chose to stay for some reason we're not privy to.

So then perhaps we need to ask a different question... because by actions alone can we call him Righteous? Peter does... So what then makes a man Righteous in the eyes of God?

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#458578 - 01/14/14 09:03 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Jacob S]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: Jacob S
It's an interesting passage from a psychological point of view. According to Lot, both of his daughters were virgins (19:8). So the implications is that the daughters chose to have their first sexual experience with their father. Of course, Lot had previously shown that he considered the sexuality of his daughters to be completely under his control (again 19:8) including offering them up to gang rape. Such an offer would have made anyone feel invalidated and powerless. If a parent says "your body belongs to me, I can force you to have sex with whoever I want," then it is not really surprising that the child has an incorrect view of what is and isn't acceptable. It is also not surprising that if they are taught the sexuality is about power that they would want to take back that power from the one who took it from them. Lot taught his children that sex didn't require consent, and that "lesson" ended up coming back to bite him. I don't believe rape is ever an acceptable punishment of course, but there is a certain amount of "you reap what you sow" in the story.

Lot was lying to begin with. His daughters were not virgins. Traditional Hebrew law requires sex of the bride and groom as part of the wedding ceremony itself. The charge to "be fruitful and multiply" was taken seriously. If they didn't have sex, they weren't married. As part of the ceremony, the couple would enter a room to consummate the marriage whilst the wedding party waited outside celebrating. The groom then handed over a bloodied "proof of virginity cloth" to a witness. It was then that the actual ceremony was over and the rest was party and celebration.

Quote:
“Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man ; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes:” Genesis 19:8

Quote:
“And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters , and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.” - Genesis 19:14

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#458579 - 01/14/14 09:34 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
Originally Posted By: JustScott

So then perhaps we need to ask a different question... because by actions alone can we call him Righteous? Peter does... So what then makes a man Righteous in the eyes of God?


Well we can use that same chapter to see what righteousness means to Peter at least. He spends a large part of 2 Peter 2 describing the unrighteous, placing Noah and Lot as figures that contrast an unrighteous world. In v. 20-21, he says "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them." We can therefore gather that to Peter righteousness is "knowing the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and "following the sacred command that was passed on to them." Knowing and following. Now Lot wouldn't have been aware of Jesus, so is Peter is being anachronistic? Maybe, but he also says Lot "was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard." So to Peter's mind, righteousness is defined not by righteous action per se but by having a soul that shrinks from wicked actions . . . a desire Lot felt but that could only be fulfilled (in Peter's view) by Jesus Christ -- who, Peter argues in his earlier letter, conveyed righteous on the segment of the unrighteous who were willing to accept Christ as their soul's "shepherd and overseer" (1 Peter 2:21-25).

Peter's examples in 2 Peter 2 are Lot and Noah. In Genesis 9:18-27, there's a story that has some parallels to the story of Lot and his daughter. It's not by any means an exact replica but there are enough elements (following a disaster, patriarch gets drunk, gets naked, children have a decision to make about how to deal with it) that it is interesting. Both cases reveal the human frailty of the men and touch on issues of familial boundaries.
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#458580 - 01/14/14 09:42 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Rich918]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
Originally Posted By: Rich918
Lot was lying to begin with. His daughters were not virgins. Traditional Hebrew law requires sex of the bride and groom as part of the wedding ceremony itself.


You could be right. Lot was a contemporary of Abraham, so "traditional Hebrew law" didn't exist yet. Speaking of traditional Hebrew, the traditional explanation for this conundrum is that some of Lot's daughters were married and some were not. The daughters he offered were virgins, but then he goes and talks to his older daughters' husbands. One point in support of that is that in most ancient societies, a father had control of a daughter only until she was married. He would not have had the "right" to offer his married daughters for sex... their husbands would have had the final say.
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#458585 - 01/14/14 11:34 AM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
Very true, this is indeed Pre-Hebrew Tradition. Although Hebrew history does support the notion that Lot had 4 daughters, 2 married and 2 unmarried. Rich is correct though in that in Hebrew custom the marriage involved consummation. Although this wasn't strictly a Hebrew custom either, if we look to Jacob and Esau (Isaac's Sons) Jacob went into who he "thought" was the woman he wanted but was deceived and in the darkness consummated a marriage with the older sister of the woman he wanted to marry.... then was forced to work 7 more years to actually get the woman he wanted.

I agree with your assessment of "Righteousness", which of course is supported elsewhere. Paul even talks about Abraham being declared righteous when he "believed" IE: Trusted in God and not through actions or works. Even though we know that after said declaration, Abraham did things that we wouldn't consider righteous, which goes back to the understanding that it isn't of works, but of faith.

Which of course takes us to our assessment of Lot. Lot believes in God obviously, and the sin around him grieved his heart... but his choice to live among though most definitely affected him and His family for sure.

Ultimately no man is righteous apart from the work of Jesus. By Grace, through Faith. OT people, like Lot, Abraham, Noah, and others had Faith in God. As it is today. Christ's Blood is what paid for and covered the sin of the world, Past, Present, and Future.

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#458589 - 01/14/14 01:02 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
I'm not sure the entire NT is consistent on that. I think an argument can be made that the letters of John and James (as well as parts of the gospels) differ with Paul and Peter on the role grace plays. I'm not saying that I am sure about that (I do understand that there is also the interpretation that the John/James focus on works is simply talking about the fruit of righteousness rather than the heart of it), but I think there is room for doubt about whether or not pauline grace is really a consistent message across all new testament authors.
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#458593 - 01/14/14 01:38 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Revelations rewards "every man according as his work." (22:12)

"Any "father" that hands over their own kin (whether they are virgin or not; whether they are married or not) for the very purpose of being raped is no father at all... And no amount of "faith", "grace" or "works" can justify it. Every developed nation on earth now recognizes it as an abomination against human rights no matter what excuse is given.

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#458594 - 01/14/14 02:38 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: Rich918]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
Let me clarify that, at least for my part, I was simply trying to parse out Peter's argument as it pertained to the question Scott asked. Whether the argument holds up under scrutiny is of course a different matter.
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#458596 - 01/14/14 03:21 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I don't believe his actions were anywhere condoned, or justified in any way. It was a horrible action, period.

Yes, Revelation does say "12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

But when you look deeper, you find there are two different groups at the judgement. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life, and Those who are not. Not matter which you fall into, you will be rewarded according to your work. That Reward is not a determination of Salvation or Damnation. For Salvation is not a Reward, it is a gift, one that cannot be earned or bought.

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#458599 - 01/14/14 05:25 PM Re: Female on Male rape in the Bible [Re: JustScott]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: JustScott
I don't believe his actions were anywhere condoned, or justified in any way.

Nor were they ever criticized; instead, they were all glazed over when praising him as a just and righteous man. After all....

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: “ - II Timothy 3:16

Not some scripture, but all scripture. Therefore, it leads one to believe that it was fully endorsed since not a peep even pretends to rebuke it.

Originally Posted By: JustScott
For Salvation is not a Reward, it is a gift, one that cannot be earned or bought.

If it was a gift, then why were there two different groups to begin with? God is not a respecter of persons. A gift is a gift is a gift. If salvation is a gift, then nobody really needs to do anything.

But, salvation is not the gift... grace is the gift or the vehicle by which one is awarded salvation.

“For by grace are ye saved (salvation) through faith.” - Ephesians 2:8

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” - Philippians 2:12

“And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work , pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:” - I Peter 1:17

Without respect of persons means that grace, faith, obedience... none of that can even apply. No matter who you are or what you believe, judgement is based upon what you have done. If there is no respect of persons, that is the only basis upon which to judge.

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