Newest Members
JohnWC, KKumar, J44, Anura, reynel5
12420 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
MADcHATTER (54), Ready2MoveOn (44)
Who's Online
5 registered (highflight, learning2remember, GT13568, 2 invisible), 34 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12420 Members
74 Forums
63789 Topics
445463 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#410351 - 09/17/12 07:17 AM he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger)
MissHeidi Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 9
Hi
I am new here. Female. Traumatized by relationship with CSA victim. Have looked for the answers I never got from my now ex H through our 12 year relationship (have known him for 17 years). Ruined by the effects of his CSA. It seems so straight forward for an outsider: "deal with the baggage or the baggage will keep ruining your life". I know it is not - but still thinks it is necessary - if anything not to cause pain on others - and self. I have never been able to convince my H.

I have tried to be there for him. But he is in TOTAL denial about the negative impact. He has acted out regularly with prostitutes (male and female), hook-ups, spas, massage parlors, internet obsessions, affairs, gone after every person I have tried to be friends with. He has very manic behaviors (grandiose, binge spending (millions), hyper social) and daily ADHD-behavior. He always get out of it with lies and endless money. He has always refused even the topic of therapy and relied on my co-dependency to handle everything. First 7 years he basically made me feel like shit (better me than him), then I found out about all of the above acting out and tried to support him in working through possible sex addiction or closet gayness. I already there regained some of my self-worth. Shortly there after I found out that he was soliciting male minor (15 and up) to sexual favors for "big bucks". I lost it. Told him that he was a fucking pedophile and would never see his kids again. He then broke down and told me about being raped at age 5 by a non-family member. I do believe the CSA as he had made references to this specific incident and person many times (without the rape part). I believe there is much more CSA possibly including his mother, but I have no knowledge. He only agreed to unlicensed therapy by phone about the SA and he scammed his way though before stopping. He did however give up his life and moved with me to my home country. From major city in US to small village. He tried to change on his terms and only by his own will. That hasn't worked out so well. I have spend the last 5 years waiting for him to start dealing with his issues while working on a plan B, if he didn't. He did try to stop his acting out with internet and prostitutes. I have brought the CSA issue up several times. Often in general terms. But he denies that the CSA are the cause. "He is just who he is" and he can handle it.
Well, plan B has arrived. 3 months ago. I did not feel I could leave before. Had hopes for a better future, wanted to be understanding plus we were not legally married and H is very wealthy. I could not risk loosing the kids, having him alone with them and would not have the money to fight him or find the kids if he left the country. Kids are now 9 and 10 years old and H had 6 months affair with wife of the only family we were close with (neighbors in a small village. Kids best friends with their kids, H best friend with husband of the family and I thought the wife was a friend). I could not co-depend anymore, could not keep cover up for him and his escalating behavior, kids have reached an age where they are aware that we are not the "happy" family, H was bringing his acting out as close to home as can be, I simply would not hide my unhappiness anymore and most importantly the kids are now an age where we can talk about appropriate behavior in terms of sex and predatorily behavior as I have spend the last 5 years hyper alert about him starting to abuse the kids (especially the boy). He did do inappropriate things due to lack of boundaries. Taking dildo to public swimming pools when taking with kids. Leaving them alone while he went to sauna area. Licking son in ears even though son protested. Things I hope is limited to that and that kids have not noticed and/or been damaged by.

I feel somewhat safe in leaving them alone with their dad. I do insist kids sleep together and without him. Shower alone. etc. H has the right to visitation also over-night and kids love him and have the right to have him in their live.

I am dealing with the realization that I cannot make him go to therapy. I cannot help him if he wants to be in denial. I have to concentrate on me (even though I am still affected by his behavior as he is part of the kids daily life and drive me crazy with his erratic behavior). Its hard to move on and limit our interactions to a co-parent relationship when he keeps trying to make me do co-dependent things like when we were in a relationship. But again we only split 3-4 months ago.

But something really bothers me and I need help with this:

H has never blamed his abuser, never expressed or acknowledged that the CSA had lasting effects and have several times said that he consented to what happened. HE WAS FIVE. I always vigorously state kids cannot consent. H does support me when I talk to the kids about sexual abuse (in terms appropriate for their age). In our last conversation as a couple, I tried again to make him understand that therapy could sought thru what was effect and what was really him. I gave the ultimatum - therapy or leave - after he again insisted that he was not violated because he had consented to it (abuser promised and gave him construction site wires) and it was a fair trade he had agreed to. Abuser also promised him large private parts - and H is obsessed with size and seek it out.

In our last conversation as a couple, H did bring out one new thing. He irrationally falls in love instantly with people and fantasize about them and try to persue them. Last one was a judge because she gave him leeway in a business matter.

At the end of the same conversation, H. basically replied "its just who I am" and that he didn't want to leave the relationship. I flat out asked him if he really believed that a five year old could consent. He answered YES and I asked him to leave.
I want to believe he would never hurt our kids or the children in my children's lives. I believe H is a wounded soul, and the acting out looks so clear to me. I so feel the pain of the little five year old him and don't see how I can help the boy. My problem is that I have no idea of H's boundaries (he says he is never guilty or ashamed of his acting out even though he lies and hide it), no idea if he will "regress" further and further, if he could "consent" - does he believe other kids can too- like our own kids or neighborhood kids. IS MY KIDS SAFE WITH HIM? WHAT CAN I DO TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE SAFE?


And another question, why is there so little discussion in the forum on the effects on the family and the kids? Even the survivors don't talk much about the effect of their CSA on their relationship with their kids. It affects the whole family and especially kids growing up with seeing loose boundaries for behavior.

I greatly appreciate any honest-from-the- heart comments. I hope you get what I say. Its hard to summarize so many years of pain, hurt and dysfunction.
Thank you very much

Top
#410359 - 09/17/12 09:58 AM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: MissHeidi]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
neither you nor your kids are safe with him. abuse does not only happen when they dont sleep together and when they dont shower together. i have experienced it the worst way possible. my husband abused my child, his child.
if you have any energy and self value left, get the hell out of his reach! he doesnt seem to change. i have no doubt he loves you - as much as he can, which is not much. but thats not his fault. he has attachment problems due to such an early abuse. but only because he has become a victim doenst mean you need to support him keeping on ruining you and the children. get rid of him! safe yourself and esp the kids.

ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

Top
#410371 - 09/17/12 11:37 AM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: MissHeidi]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Heidi

Sorry that you need to be on the forum but glad that you have found us.

You have so many questions and I will try and answer them from my point of view.
Yes your husband feels that he consented to the abuse because that is the only thing that makes sense in his mind. we all feel that we to some extent asked for it or wanted it or even thought that we were able to control it.
Truth is that we were not in control and we could not consent to it (at 5). We are just trying to make sense of something that is so terribly wrong that was done to us.
The only person that can convince your husband that he was abused is another survivor. He needs to somehow hear other survivors stories. It is only when he realizes that this has happened to other men that he will begin to accept that he too is a victim.

Now, will he abuse the children. Well this is a difficult one. Most paedophiles are survivors, but then again a larger proportion of us will never in a million years hurt a child because we know how it hurt us. In fact a lot of the survivors I know will defend a child to the death.

So the best thing to do is to explain to your children that their private parts are theirs, and that nobody can touch them there NOBODY. Even if they go to a doctor, then Mom needs to be there with them. No one is allowed to touch them on their buttocks, or try to kiss them using their tongues, or touch their privates, even if someone touches them and they get aroused, it is not OK to let them touch.
Dont be shy in explaining because if you are not brutally honest with them then the alternative is worse.

You are also right on the, we dont talk about the effects on our children enough. Personally I have caused so much hurt to my family that I dont really want to sit here telling the story over and over again, reminding myself of how I hurt my daughter and wife.
But at least in my family there is a happy ending that we are still busy writing, I have a great relationship with my daughter, ( as much as a father can at this point in a teenagers life)
You have made the right decision and left him, no good can come of a Co-dependent relationship, so well done and all you need to do is look after yourself and the children and keep going.
Ask a lot of questions there are some wise ladies on this forum that have been through a hell of a lot.

Heal well.
Martin
_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

Top
#410390 - 09/17/12 02:05 PM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: confusion4life]
MissHeidi Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 9
Hi confusion4life

What you write is what i feel. However, he has the legal right to have visitation. I cannot change that. I can only observe from the sideline, inform kids of the importance of open communication, and give them boundaries and normalcy the rest of the time. And I have to assume innocent until proven otherwise. I truly pray for what I am overprotective and wrong. It breaks my heart, but I have to expect the worst and hope for the best. I am furious that I have to worry and have my kids at a minimum be exposed to inappropriate behavior like his manic and impulse behavior. I have to thread the line between setting clear boundaries to his actions towards me and the kids and keep open lines of communication with him about the kids. If the custody became unfriendly, I would just loose any insight or ability to observe what happens when they are with him. He would clam up and the kids would clam up to avoid loyalty conflicts. He would be allowed to have them for longer periods of time than now. Legally, I cannot get further away from him. I hate to sound co-dependent but the only way I see out of this is a change from his side. And I have no control over that. Thank you so much for your comment. First time I have told anyone and feels good to be heard.

Top
#410407 - 09/17/12 04:40 PM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: MissHeidi]
Robert1000 Offline


Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 336
Little kids can't consent. Ever. They're not even sexual at that age. At all. Little kids can't consent. Period. Especially someone who's prepubescent. I'm so sad for you and your family. That's really tough. As for your H's rights, they NEVER trump safety for your kids. No judge. No social worker. Would say, let the kids hang out unsupervised with a pedophile. And if they did, it would be wrong and illegal. Don't trick yourself. The safety of your children is your FIRST, SECOND, THIRD and ONLY priority. Don't fail your kids like your husband's parents failed him.

What Martin said is absolutely right. Many of us "think" we consented. Abusers have an awful bag of psychological tricks. It sounds to me like your husband suffered those tricks and could well be using them, too.

It pains me to say this, but you only have RIGHT NOW to act to save your children and yourself. If you H cannot get himself/his priorities in order, that's his problem.

And... I also want to thank you for coming here. Please stay. Please get therapy. Stay with your therapy. Good luck. Get strong and stay strong.

Bob

Top
#410431 - 09/17/12 06:58 PM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: Robert1000]
MissHeidi Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 9
Hi Bob

You are absolutely right. Only priority should is to protect the kids. However, I am in northern Europe and the country I am in are very liberal and insistent about visitation and award equal right to fathers and mothers (which I like in general). They call it the rights of the children to have both parents in their lives at all times until 18. Even convicted abusers have the right to see their children. For the child's sake. It is a bunch of bull. They are so naive here. The legal age of consent is only 15. I know several foster parents who have to send their foster kids home to unsupervised visitations even though the kids are totally out of it when they return.
As long as there is no proven abuse towards the child a parent have visitation rights. Max sentence for multiple murders is 10 years here. Image what is it for rape. The good thing here is that I cannot loose physical custody to the father no matter how poor I am or how rich he is. You cannot buy justice here. I experienced otherwise in the states.

No court here would take his statements as a valid threat. It is not illegal to say, it is only illegal to do such things. So far I have no case and hope I never will. I have to say kids appear to thrive and show no signs of abuse. I can only hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

That was my number one priority to be able to be in their lives by not loosing physical custody. ( It breaks my heart that it comes to that)

My second priority is to raise two individuals with self-worth and feeling they deserve to be loved always and no matter what.

My third priority is to protect them from anything bad and to be there to help them if something bad should happen.

Top
#410432 - 09/17/12 07:07 PM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: MissHeidi]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 416
My husband was 5 when he was first molested--the same age our child was when he fell apart and told me of the molestation. It took me and a therapist to get him to see he did not consent. I pointed to our child and mentioned all the ways s/he could be manipulated for lesser things. It clicked-sort of. He could grasp that the initial contacts were wrong, but not all subsequent acts over the next 8 years which of course were predicated onthe initial non consensual act. It's twisted thinking and if I dwell on it, my head and my heart hurt.
_________________________
Wife of a survivor

Top
#410435 - 09/17/12 07:22 PM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: whome]
MissHeidi Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 9
Hi Martin

Thank you for your kind and wise words.

I hope everyone who read my post understand that I do not ask the question because I think that anyone should fear a victim/survivor is likely to abuse their own children. The survivor stories shows that people reach a line they will not cross even if it means stopping protecting their own hurt and denial.

I fully understand the terrible thought of thinking that one caused one's own abuse and think there was consent. It is a devastating thought and so untrue. I understand that there is a devastating fear of loss of control after a CSA. A fear that is so scary to start dealing with and I understand that it can lead a person to be abusive to themselves in many different ways. I admire all of those who have the courage to deal with it.

However there is a choice made when a victim is willing to ignore the damage they project onto others - especially innocent kids. So many of the survivors here seems to have reached a line in the sand where their own pain became less important than the pain they could project onto others - or too unbearable to themselves. My H. has not reached that line. I don't know where it is. He is defending his survival at any cost.

He is escalating it at the moment. I have had to draw a line in the sand that I will not cross. I am willing to accept that I was collateral damage and that he cared more about protecting his own pain than mine. I don't understand but accept the reality. But the kids are emotional collateral. They have not had the mother they deserved because she was in turmoil and focused on the H.'s pain and problems and they don't have the father they deserve. I cannot sit and listen to the H.'s statements of willing consent to sexual acts of children and choice to view it as simply a reflection of his turmoil but must consider it a potential true belief. I have to draw to line at some point otherwise I am silently consenting to his potential justifications. It is a statement that I have to view as credible as I have to choice between his pain versus the kids pain. Isn't that what the abuser did. Gain control by taking it from another innocent person. I can't help but feel that the H.'s is continuing his abusers work. I know it is harsh, but the waves just keep spreading from the initial assault. The wound is oozing with infections. The infections consist to lack of empathy and care, lies, and the facade more important than real care. Not to minimize the terror of sexual abuse, but a lack of these other elements foster kids with low self-worth and self-esteem. These are a daily threads to the kids. I must focus on the overall picture.

Not that I had much hope but I did conclude like you said that my H. had to hear it from a survivor. I must interject that I do have some anger that my H. have been cruising the internet so extensively through all these years, but never have reached out for information to help him understand what the heck was going on inside of him or how to raise healthy kids. Always chosen craigslist over informational sites.

I did do a last attempt a couple of weeks ago as I saw he is spiraling down and giving up any attempts to fight his demons. He informed me and the kids that he was leaving overseas for 2 weeks (right as his weekend with the kids started). He gave us 5 hours notice and I had to cancel all plans I had made. Including therapy appointment. I know him so well and knew that is was an acting-out binge trip what removes him further from caring about the kids. It had only been 2 weeks since last time he left for 2 weeks with 2 days notice. As a last attempt to kick his ass into gear and knowing that he would never seek information about abuse, I made a dummy email and sent an e-mail to his account. The email wrote "watch - it changed my life" with a link to the Oprah show "200 men ..", a link to male survivor.org and a link to Dr. Joe Korts website. I did feel like scum deceiving him this way but I was so devastated from dealing with the effects on the kids. Lasting effects of abandonment and feeling of not being lovable. Our boy cried every day the H. was gone and I had to comfort him and say that daddy had to go, but that he loves him very much. I was boiling inside recognizing that I was doing the co-dependent cover-up. But I could not break my sons heart.

Nothing has come from it. I mention the whole email thing because maybe another desperate family member could have better luck using it. Or hear someone warn about doing it.

Martin, it is very good advise about educating the kids about potential inappropriate behavior. I have done that the last five years except for the arousal thing. You are right it is an important factor. I will get it communicated in an appropriate way.

I fear the future. Know that I must be the kids primary and only role model for loving relationships as well as I can. That I cannot give in to the lost of trust in humanity that I feel. My motto is that I will not let the destructive experience I have had pave my future way, will not let destructive individuals rule my live and will instead focus on cherishing all the good in people.

Thank you Martin for the sharing of your explanation about that takes place in victim-mode about consent. My H. has never shared much about anything and it is such a healing feeling to get some insight. The worst pain for me is that I never have gotten any answers only a lot of lies and silence together with the pain of not being able to share all this pain with friends, because I didn't want to expose the H - or even now when it is a closed chapter, to expose what really went on as the kids would hear about it and traumatize them (live in a small community).

peace

Sorry I got into other things. I have so much bottle up inside of me.






Edited by MissHeidi (09/17/12 07:40 PM)

Top
#410618 - 09/19/12 11:24 AM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: MissHeidi]
MissHeidi Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 9
YOUR WORDS BROUGHT HIM TO THERAPY - thank you Martin
Brought up my concern to ex H about his statements that kids can consent. He said it was ridiculous - he would never touch the kids or any kids and he don't know why I keep saying it. Just like you, Martin, said. I told him because I have to deal with reality and not with interpreting his code of speech. Then I asked him directly "were you assualted/raped as a kid?". He said "I was not assaulted, but I did have a sexual experience at age 5 that I consented to". I then stated "no you were groomed". He didn't know what that meant. Martin you were so right.

I brought up the thing you wrote about arousal (body betraying you - it does not mean it felt good or was right) and about the desire to never not being in control like that again. That it plays a part of the long-lasting effects that shows up in his behavior. I SAW THE LITTLE BOY IN HIM FINALLY UNDERSTAND a bit of the confusion (especially the arousal thing). He could however not see what the CSA had to do with his behavior today.
I told H how he shows so many of the signs of the effects of CSA. That it affects everyone around him. How he hurts other by doing it. How it effects our parenting. How it keeps me in a co-dependent mode to shield the kids from his behavior even though I feel it abusive.
Another thing I related it to was about the sense of entitlement that someone here wrote about (I think it was you Martin in another post). It is not because you WANT to hurt others. It is because you rather protect your own pain. THAT ALSO REALLY touched him - I guess it related to the guilt of hurting others. But that he rationalizes why it is okay - The sense of entitlement not to care about others. That it makes sense for him to protect himself against the pain and confusion within him. It is only logical to do. But the responsibility he has today is to find out what is behind the feeling of entitlement, because it is not okay just to pass on the pain to others - especially the ones who loves him. HE AGREED TO TRY THERAPY. SO THANK YOU. IT IS A BIG STEP for him even to consider being conscious of his behavior. He sms'd me today writing "thank you .. I do not take it lightly or kiddingly... I am taking what you said in.."

He asked me to set up the appointment as he does not know where to start ( and he is totally ADHD) - so this is one co-dependent thing I am happy to comply with.

After six years of trying - there is hope

Top
#447029 - 09/12/13 09:25 PM Re: he thinks a five year old can consent (trigger) [Re: MissHeidi]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3362
Loc: O Kanada
a 5 year old will consent to anything.

I did.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.