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#453213 - 11/11/13 09:53 AM So he asks about your "first time" and you say...?
Chase Eric Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1491
...


Edited by Chase Eric (11/21/13 11:14 AM)
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Eirik




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#453216 - 11/11/13 10:20 AM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
When people ask about your first time, they really want to hear how you wooed and beguiled some tipsy crush, with some adorable details about being nervous and having to hide from your parents or the dorm prefect or whatever. Even if it's a "bad" first time story - "My mom walked in and freaked out and I didn't even finish" - it's still a good bad story.

"A guy told me he'd rape my sister if he couldn't have me" doesn't count, because rape doesn't count. I differ from most commentators in that I do see rape as being about sex - for the perp. It does not count as sex for the victim. So I'd respectfully suggest a deflection that you were a late bloomer in really getting into sex (which you were, if you're only counting legitimate sex) and then start with your first non-abusive experience.

There have been many threads discussing this in the past, ie:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34885&page=1

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=47695&page=1

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...true#Post297523


Food for thought....


Matt
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#453220 - 11/11/13 11:10 AM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: SoccerStar]
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1491
...


Edited by Chase Eric (11/21/13 11:15 AM)
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Eirik




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#453221 - 11/11/13 11:12 AM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
If logic could beat feelings, no one would be here.
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"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#453228 - 11/11/13 12:09 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1491
...


Edited by Chase Eric (11/21/13 11:13 AM)
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Eirik




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#453233 - 11/11/13 12:23 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
bey Offline


Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 206
Loc: canada
I hate when people ask me that too. If I count the CSA (which I don't) there was really no time "before", I was being molested as an infant, penetrated by 5 or so, penetrating by 8 or so. If i count all consensual sex acts, I was still fooling around with friends by age 8, 9. And ya, like someone said, people ask because they want a cute or funny story, but my experience with sex as a young person was neither of those things. Could you imagine what would happen to the conversation if they asked who my first time was with and i answered by saying 'my dad when i was 5'. That pretty much kills a fun night out with friends.

People who know me well enough would never ask, or if the conversation goes there they ask me a similar question, like the first time I fell in love or whatever. if someone who I don't know well and won't know well asks me, I tell them about fooling around with my then-best-friend Melissa when I was 14 or the first time I had sex with someone I was in love with. That was Roger, I was 16. Those are the stories people want to hear, and they are stories that are important for me to tell myself. Because they were firsts, the first time it was real and really consensual and about me and him / her. The first time i realized I had real feelings for a guy was the first time i kissed roger. before then I had sex with loads of guys, consensual and not, but it was just sex, and sex never meant that much to me. he was different.

The truth is, in my opinion, I never had a virginity to lose.

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#453254 - 11/11/13 04:11 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 827
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Al Dente(aka Chase Eric),

I'm getting kind of gnarly in my dotage, and can become insufferable with superficiality and with intrusive conversations. Once I decided I do not have to be insufferable, superficial or be intruded upon I realized I do have options I can consciously choose. For me this has been a very difficult thing to do because it involves me TAKING THE POWER BACK THAT WAS STOLEN FROM ME THROUGH ABUSE. So, practically speaking, I understand that when someone asks me a personal question, they are really talking about themselves and want to have a personal conversation about themselves. That does not mean they are able to have a (satisfying for me) personal conversation about themselves. That does not mean they are able to be sensitive to me. However, the issue for me is: Am I able to be sensitive to me? This involves me discovering what I want from that interaction at that time. Sometimes I say to myself "You know, this guy is wanting to know personal things about me and I am not in the mood to be creative or superficial." I did that for the first time a couple of weeks ago with a taxi driver--different culture, different mindset, very different religious values. I was able to be completely honest about being gay and abused, was able to be kind and loving in my responses, never got triggered by his responses that I had just taken a wrong turn, that I needed to step up and be a man. It was great for me. I was able for the first time to put my beliefs in action--that there is room for all of us. By letting myself be honest, I was able to let him be who he was without judgement. It was a very satisfying interchange for me.

I feel it is important to make a conscious choice in those kind of situations and hold the interchange conscious. It made me feel really good about myself. When the taxi driver reached my destination, his energy was very respectful, very thoughtful and very kind. I was able to feel that and realize something important had happened for both of us. Don
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Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

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#453260 - 11/11/13 04:55 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
Eric - notice your phrasing. "Virginity is something you can only give once, and he took it from me."

As Dr. Manhattan said in "Watchmen," a dead body and a live one contain the same number of particles, so when people get concerned about death, it's over an emotion, an idea, not something physical. I respectfully suggest that it is the same with virginity. It is something that can only be given, and not stolen, because it represents an idea - an idea of personal growth, accomplishment, perseverance, maturation - SUCCESS. In your case of the thieving swine who stole your heirloom ring: yes, if someone said "did anyone ever steal that ring from you?", the answer is yes. But proposing and getting engaged to be married also involved changing ownership of a ring, and this thief isn't your fiancée. Same molecules, different idea, different meaning.

That is how I see it, anyway.
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"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#453275 - 11/11/13 09:46 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
toddop Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 226
Loc: California
I have been thinking about this post. I think that we did lose our virginity to our abusers. To call it otherwise or to say that it wasn't our virginity that was lost is wishful thinking. I think virginity is an idea, but an idea that is tied to a physical state of innocence about sex versus knowledge of sex. To me, virginity exits in the physical, but also the emotional and mental aspects of the experience. I knew how to sexually please a man by the age of 7. That requires an active participation developed over years of sexual abuse by that age. It also means that whether it was rape or abuse, I had some type of carnal knowledge, even if it was by no fault of my own. And there is no virgin that can claim such carnal knowledge.

I also think that saying survivors didn't lose their virginity is almost like letting the perpetrator off the hook for what is such an egregious part of the violation in the first place. My sexual development and sexuality was forever altered after the abuse. My sexual fantasies now have to compete with the sexual things I did as a child in my brain space. I can see very painfully in those memories that I was not physically or intellectually a virgin after the abuse and knew about sex and how to do it.

Ever since the abuse, I viewed sex as a currency of some kind. It had a weight and value to me and I always lost all my coin in the transaction. In some ways I do view what happened to me as if my perp was a card shark and I was an innocent, naïve kid with a pocket full of coin. And he swindled me out of all of my money before I even really understood what the coin or currency was or what it meant. Just because I did not understand what I was losing, does not mean I didn’t lose it. I did lose my virginity and lot of other things in those repeated transactions.

I will say that I feel that while I did lose my virginity to my abuser, it doesn’t mean it has to scar me or other survivors sexually for life. I think and hope that survivors can find a healthy sex life and one that is free from the abuse. I am admittedly not there. I have been celibate most of my life due to the fallout of the CSA and its affects. But, I do feel I lost my gay virginity to my abusers. It was part and parcel of who I was as a person. That innocence was lost forever after that. It was not, I feel, something I could ever get back.

Eirik, I applaud you for being honest in your answer to your friend at the party. I don't think I would have been as honest. I am definitely not there yet. I probably would have left it at “it's complicated” and shifted the topic, or have talked about a later episode in my life, as suggested by others.
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"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
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#453290 - 11/11/13 11:35 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 827
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Eirik, and everyone,

I am so grateful for this discussion. My sex life has been very compromised for all of my 64 years. Until very recently, my fantasies and dreams have always been about a thief breaking into my home or a thief on a dark street, being accosted, and the only hope for coming out of it alive lay in my ability to please them sexually. If I could please them sexually there might be some hope that they would love me. Very, very sick. I know this, but was never able to get any health in my dreams or fantasies. In recent months, after beginning to remember the sexual abuse from my mother my sexual dreams and fantasies have moved into non-dangerous territory where I am able to suggest the possibility of love and caring.

While I will never be able to get my literal physical virginity back, my imagination tells me it may be possible for me to heal sufficiently to have a consciously loving and caring relationship. My imagination suggests that in that context, I may be able to experience the wonder, awe, joy, and power of sharing my loving nature physically. My imagination says it doesn't get any better than that regardless of whether or not my virginity was stolen. In my imagination it is mine to take back--obviously not physically, but in the only way that matters to me, how I feel about it. Just my imagination.

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

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