Newest Members
Won'tGiveUp, sillyputty, Pytbull, manipulated, donmarks
12383 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Beluga (64), Isreal101 (65), Phil Sober (41), phil1973 (41), Teddy Bear (63)
Who's Online
3 registered (Won'tGiveUp, 2 invisible), 30 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12383 Members
74 Forums
63644 Topics
444485 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#453213 - 11/11/13 09:53 AM So he asks about your "first time" and you say...?
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
...


Edited by Chase Eric (11/21/13 11:14 AM)
_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#453216 - 11/11/13 10:20 AM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
When people ask about your first time, they really want to hear how you wooed and beguiled some tipsy crush, with some adorable details about being nervous and having to hide from your parents or the dorm prefect or whatever. Even if it's a "bad" first time story - "My mom walked in and freaked out and I didn't even finish" - it's still a good bad story.

"A guy told me he'd rape my sister if he couldn't have me" doesn't count, because rape doesn't count. I differ from most commentators in that I do see rape as being about sex - for the perp. It does not count as sex for the victim. So I'd respectfully suggest a deflection that you were a late bloomer in really getting into sex (which you were, if you're only counting legitimate sex) and then start with your first non-abusive experience.

There have been many threads discussing this in the past, ie:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34885&page=1

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=47695&page=1

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...true#Post297523


Food for thought....


Matt
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

Top
#453220 - 11/11/13 11:10 AM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: SoccerStar]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
...


Edited by Chase Eric (11/21/13 11:15 AM)
_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#453221 - 11/11/13 11:12 AM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
If logic could beat feelings, no one would be here.
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

Top
#453228 - 11/11/13 12:09 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1356
...


Edited by Chase Eric (11/21/13 11:13 AM)
_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#453233 - 11/11/13 12:23 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
bey Offline


Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 205
Loc: canada
I hate when people ask me that too. If I count the CSA (which I don't) there was really no time "before", I was being molested as an infant, penetrated by 5 or so, penetrating by 8 or so. If i count all consensual sex acts, I was still fooling around with friends by age 8, 9. And ya, like someone said, people ask because they want a cute or funny story, but my experience with sex as a young person was neither of those things. Could you imagine what would happen to the conversation if they asked who my first time was with and i answered by saying 'my dad when i was 5'. That pretty much kills a fun night out with friends.

People who know me well enough would never ask, or if the conversation goes there they ask me a similar question, like the first time I fell in love or whatever. if someone who I don't know well and won't know well asks me, I tell them about fooling around with my then-best-friend Melissa when I was 14 or the first time I had sex with someone I was in love with. That was Roger, I was 16. Those are the stories people want to hear, and they are stories that are important for me to tell myself. Because they were firsts, the first time it was real and really consensual and about me and him / her. The first time i realized I had real feelings for a guy was the first time i kissed roger. before then I had sex with loads of guys, consensual and not, but it was just sex, and sex never meant that much to me. he was different.

The truth is, in my opinion, I never had a virginity to lose.

Top
#453254 - 11/11/13 04:11 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 700
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Al Dente(aka Chase Eric),

I'm getting kind of gnarly in my dotage, and can become insufferable with superficiality and with intrusive conversations. Once I decided I do not have to be insufferable, superficial or be intruded upon I realized I do have options I can consciously choose. For me this has been a very difficult thing to do because it involves me TAKING THE POWER BACK THAT WAS STOLEN FROM ME THROUGH ABUSE. So, practically speaking, I understand that when someone asks me a personal question, they are really talking about themselves and want to have a personal conversation about themselves. That does not mean they are able to have a (satisfying for me) personal conversation about themselves. That does not mean they are able to be sensitive to me. However, the issue for me is: Am I able to be sensitive to me? This involves me discovering what I want from that interaction at that time. Sometimes I say to myself "You know, this guy is wanting to know personal things about me and I am not in the mood to be creative or superficial." I did that for the first time a couple of weeks ago with a taxi driver--different culture, different mindset, very different religious values. I was able to be completely honest about being gay and abused, was able to be kind and loving in my responses, never got triggered by his responses that I had just taken a wrong turn, that I needed to step up and be a man. It was great for me. I was able for the first time to put my beliefs in action--that there is room for all of us. By letting myself be honest, I was able to let him be who he was without judgement. It was a very satisfying interchange for me.

I feel it is important to make a conscious choice in those kind of situations and hold the interchange conscious. It made me feel really good about myself. When the taxi driver reached my destination, his energy was very respectful, very thoughtful and very kind. I was able to feel that and realize something important had happened for both of us. Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#453260 - 11/11/13 04:55 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
Eric - notice your phrasing. "Virginity is something you can only give once, and he took it from me."

As Dr. Manhattan said in "Watchmen," a dead body and a live one contain the same number of particles, so when people get concerned about death, it's over an emotion, an idea, not something physical. I respectfully suggest that it is the same with virginity. It is something that can only be given, and not stolen, because it represents an idea - an idea of personal growth, accomplishment, perseverance, maturation - SUCCESS. In your case of the thieving swine who stole your heirloom ring: yes, if someone said "did anyone ever steal that ring from you?", the answer is yes. But proposing and getting engaged to be married also involved changing ownership of a ring, and this thief isn't your fiancée. Same molecules, different idea, different meaning.

That is how I see it, anyway.
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

Top
#453275 - 11/11/13 09:46 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
toddop Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 219
Loc: California
I have been thinking about this post. I think that we did lose our virginity to our abusers. To call it otherwise or to say that it wasn't our virginity that was lost is wishful thinking. I think virginity is an idea, but an idea that is tied to a physical state of innocence about sex versus knowledge of sex. To me, virginity exits in the physical, but also the emotional and mental aspects of the experience. I knew how to sexually please a man by the age of 7. That requires an active participation developed over years of sexual abuse by that age. It also means that whether it was rape or abuse, I had some type of carnal knowledge, even if it was by no fault of my own. And there is no virgin that can claim such carnal knowledge.

I also think that saying survivors didn't lose their virginity is almost like letting the perpetrator off the hook for what is such an egregious part of the violation in the first place. My sexual development and sexuality was forever altered after the abuse. My sexual fantasies now have to compete with the sexual things I did as a child in my brain space. I can see very painfully in those memories that I was not physically or intellectually a virgin after the abuse and knew about sex and how to do it.

Ever since the abuse, I viewed sex as a currency of some kind. It had a weight and value to me and I always lost all my coin in the transaction. In some ways I do view what happened to me as if my perp was a card shark and I was an innocent, naïve kid with a pocket full of coin. And he swindled me out of all of my money before I even really understood what the coin or currency was or what it meant. Just because I did not understand what I was losing, does not mean I didn’t lose it. I did lose my virginity and lot of other things in those repeated transactions.

I will say that I feel that while I did lose my virginity to my abuser, it doesn’t mean it has to scar me or other survivors sexually for life. I think and hope that survivors can find a healthy sex life and one that is free from the abuse. I am admittedly not there. I have been celibate most of my life due to the fallout of the CSA and its affects. But, I do feel I lost my gay virginity to my abusers. It was part and parcel of who I was as a person. That innocence was lost forever after that. It was not, I feel, something I could ever get back.

Eirik, I applaud you for being honest in your answer to your friend at the party. I don't think I would have been as honest. I am definitely not there yet. I probably would have left it at “it's complicated” and shifted the topic, or have talked about a later episode in my life, as suggested by others.
_________________________
Todd

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
-Albert Einstein

Top
#453290 - 11/11/13 11:35 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
don64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 700
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
Hi Eirik, and everyone,

I am so grateful for this discussion. My sex life has been very compromised for all of my 64 years. Until very recently, my fantasies and dreams have always been about a thief breaking into my home or a thief on a dark street, being accosted, and the only hope for coming out of it alive lay in my ability to please them sexually. If I could please them sexually there might be some hope that they would love me. Very, very sick. I know this, but was never able to get any health in my dreams or fantasies. In recent months, after beginning to remember the sexual abuse from my mother my sexual dreams and fantasies have moved into non-dangerous territory where I am able to suggest the possibility of love and caring.

While I will never be able to get my literal physical virginity back, my imagination tells me it may be possible for me to heal sufficiently to have a consciously loving and caring relationship. My imagination suggests that in that context, I may be able to experience the wonder, awe, joy, and power of sharing my loving nature physically. My imagination says it doesn't get any better than that regardless of whether or not my virginity was stolen. In my imagination it is mine to take back--obviously not physically, but in the only way that matters to me, how I feel about it. Just my imagination.

Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

Top
#453308 - 11/12/13 03:17 AM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: Chase Eric]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 407
Loc: west coast
I just went through this with friends the other night as my bf and i were invited for dinner at another couples.

Engaging with sex with another boy started so early its hard to tell when i t began. He made me do things from so early on, there is almost no point in figuring it out. The way i see it, it doesn't matter. To me, virginity is a concept not an event. Some lonely souls have no opportunity as they dont have the confidence to date. Or a repressive religious construct that values inexperience and naiveté. I want a craftsman to have some experience and who knows what to do. Two people fumbling at something that could possibly be the greatest experience ever or just passable to the point of barely tolerable. How would you know if you never had the experience or opportunity to shift your paradigm. Way too much emphasis on the Virginity, besides the virgin queen was probably a lesbian.

I think of it as the question being about ME, when did I realize that i was gay, just me in my thoughts. I don't know the age exactly but i remember my older brothers playboy stack. I think i was 12 and i came across one about the society girl and the tow headed buff stable boy. I couldn't take my eyes off him. But then i closed the magazine. I didn't want to feel any of that.

It's how we tell OUR story, comedians are funny cuz they practice every line - content, timing and delivery. I think you are right Eric, we just need to have it ready in our minds.

So the first time is for me, when did I know i had gay feelings and when did i finally know i liked men. The gay feelings were early but not understood. But my first time that i knew was when i was kissed with such passion and intensity that my head felt like the back of my skull would just burst with a complete and utter core shattering sense that finally YES, I am ME , this is what IT is supposed to feel like. I had sex from infancy but THIS was the moment my whole being experienced the FIRST TIME.

If they want more details i am happy to share. I have nothing to hide or feel ashamed about. Not anymore, reflexive honesty is so much easier. Its out there and done. Nothing to protect or deflect or respect. I was a DJ once years ago and got the dance floor full at a mennonite wedding. So i played " Highway to Hell", and as they all stopped and stared at me, then just turned and walked away i thought to myself, damn, don't be a buzz kill. Its about knowing your audience.

As to why it took until my 40's , yup like all of us its complicated. So i just leave out the timing and expand on the experience.

So my real first time had so many fireworks and multicoloured lights flashing in my body and in my mind, it was gayer that christmas. So unlike virginity which is a single event like santa only ever coming once(say what?) , now its a gift that keeps on giving.
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

Top
#453372 - 11/12/13 02:49 PM Re: So he asks about your "first time" and you say...? [Re: SoccerStar]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 594
Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
I differ from most commentators in that I do see rape as being about sex - for the perp. It does not count as sex for the victim.


I think you are really on to something here. The way I divide it in my mind is that a relationship is about communication and expression, rape/abuse is about oppression and suppression. One encourages people to blossom and the other encourages people to shut down.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.