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#452940 - 11/08/13 02:49 PM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: christie1013]
Robert1000 Offline


Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 336
Hi Christie,

First off, you should definitely take anything I write with a big grain of salt.

And I might be reading into what you say... but when you guess what his real intention/meaning might be, like above when you say his disclosure came because he got tired of you asking about his family and he blurted out the fact, you're rationalizing what he's doing. When two people get to know each other by dating or whatever, it's normal to ask about family. For him to blurt it out and then punish you for it by withholding sex or whatever is pretty abusive. For you to rationalize it is... I think, could well be co-dependent, if that's in fact what you're doing.

I don't write this in judgment of you. Not at all. I'm simply giving you my honest opinion. But if that's what you are doing... then you're in fact enabling him to continue dodging his real issues, because that's the true problem with the way co-dependency relates to PTSD. The PTSD is basically a stack of crappy stuff--denial, dissociation, anger, pain, projection, lies, rationalization, self-delusions, sexual dysfunction and who knows what-all--all rolled into one. The whole point of it is to keep the person who has PTSD from dealing in a straightforward way with whatever caused the PTSD, and all the new traumatic things that have come along in the wake of the original trauma(s). And there are almost always plenty of those. Anyway, a co-dependent, by having their own rationalizations and delusions basically helps the person with PTSD keep avoiding the real problem.

Anyway, like I said, I don't know that that's what you're doing. It just looks like that, from my vantage point. That could be... don't have any doubt... because I know what co-dependency looks like all too well. I'm not sharing much about my own life right here... but trust me... I've been through the shit, too.

My best to you. Keep after it. I can tell you're a loving person, and that's the best place from which to be working.

Bob

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#452949 - 11/08/13 03:26 PM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: Robert1000]
christie1013 Offline


Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 31
I don't think i was rationalizing it. What I was trying to do was explain how the disclosure was delivered if that makes sense. But as i read your post, it sounds like you think i should push him more toward getting help? Which is quite the opposite of what everyone else seems to be saying. I read a post somewhere that said the only direction you can push is away.
I dont want to scare him away, I want him to get help. I want to be with him for a long time. I adore him, i want him back, I want our sex life back, I want to have fun again. Since this came up, all his smiles and laughter went away. And yes i know that was a front, he was coping not healing.

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#453011 - 11/09/13 01:12 AM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: christie1013]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 708
Loc: NJ
There is a pattern and Bob has it right. Most survivors are married or coupled with codependent personalities. It just is that way. In fact, most addicts or trauma victims have codependent partners. And I will say having spent a couple of years around here, survivors do better when their partners finally realize the nature of the codependence and move away from that role.

I have said it before on these boards - but I read Codependent No More SEVERAL TIMES. The first time, I got through a couple of chapters and was like "THIS SO IS NOT ME" - but the fourth time I finally finished the book and was like THIS IS SO ME. It takes time and a lot of reflection for us to identify this in ourselves. Groups like al-anon are for this exact issue.

We all need recovery and support - survivors and supporters.

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#453030 - 11/09/13 08:45 AM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: Esposa]
christie1013 Offline


Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 31
Thanks bob and esposa. I was still a bit confused so i googled codependency. Honestly the only "role" i fit is the constant need to fix or help him when i am in fact powerless to do so. The others dont seem to fit my personality but i could be wrong.
Ok so now that i realize i cant be the solution (by the way Esposa, that comment is really when it dawned on me) what do i do? Is this where i say, i realize i cant help you, only that i can support you to the extent that you want it? Or is it more like, we have some work to do here and if this relationship is important enough to you, you will need to work at it or i will need to leave?

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#453033 - 11/09/13 09:03 AM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: christie1013]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 708
Loc: NJ
Christie - this is a process, for you too. So it will take time for you to feel this way. But I will give you an example. But first, let me ask you a question...

How much horror in you does the following question instill?
YOU WILL GO TO THERAPY OR I WILL NOT SPEAK TO YOU AGAIN.

Ok - I realize that's dramatic. But the fact is, when we are finally starting to recover from codependence, this statement NO longer feels scary - and it feels more about demanding what WE need for safety and less about DEMANDING that our partner do something. That's what I mean about a process.

But this is kind of where I ended up mentally about 2 years ago:

I love you. You are important to me. The more I know about you, the more I love you. I am strong and committed and capable of standing by you should you decide to do the work of healing from what happened to you. But I will tell you that I have needs and they involve honesty, intimacy and mutual respect and understanding. Right now, I can see you hurting and I can see you pulling away. It hurts me because I want us to be together and I think we can work through all of this together. What I will not do, however, is give up my needs for someone who does not want to get better.

What does Christie want? Write it down and put it under you pillow and make sure you are moving toward it every day of your life.

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#453045 - 11/09/13 11:06 AM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: christie1013]
pittsburgh Offline


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 89
Loc: west Chester, Pa
Hello: I will only speak from my experience. I hear you and it is a great question. You have had some great replays. For decades I felt I could just hold it in and everything would be fine. After men are strong and should not show feelings. As I aged it started eating at me. Depression, anger, suicide. I just did not connect it all. Till I meet my wife after three years I spilled the beans one time when I was suicidal. I started therapy and working with it instead of denying. The point is anything is possible, but it is my thought that a male has to get to the point that he accepts and is willing to work on it. This takes some of us many years. My wife stuck with me and helped. I could have and would have never done it with out her. Not sure this is of any help. All of us are so different, our stories are different its impossible to predict. I wish and pray all the best to you and your man.
_________________________
it is and has been quite a trip thru life, as last I feel that I am in a better place, it takes work and in my case a wife the was and is forgiveing and helpful. At last a relationship has gone right, messed up three.

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#453090 - 11/09/13 09:26 PM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: christie1013]
On The Fringe Offline


Registered: 09/21/13
Posts: 326
Loc: Southeast USA
Here is my therapy. I do have a very long time in a 12 step program that helped greatly.
_________________________
I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here.

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#453238 - 11/11/13 12:55 PM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: christie1013]
christie1013 Offline


Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 31
Well apparently he has not hit rock bottom enough to want to change or I am not important enough. We had the talk on Saturday and its taking me two days to post because I can't see through my tears.
I incorporated a lot of how I feel and what I feel along with a lot of suggestions on here. His response was (through tears), I love you, I adore you, you are the best thing that ever happened to me and I can't replace you. But I CANT go to therapy. I look at you now like you are an aunt or cousin. Therefore we can't make love ever again.
So there it is. I always said I would stand by him. We were friends long time before anything else. But you know, I feel like he is being pretty selfish. I know it wasn't his choice to be hurt but it is his choice to hurt me.
The worst part is that he isn't even in denial. He isnt saying that he has some grand life and he is happy. He full out said that he is just living his life pretending to be happy until he dies. And talking about this all makes him feel worse not better. he says he functions better when this isn't on the surface. And so I told him that because he will not get help that he has lost the only two women that he was ever close to and wanted to really love him. And he said, that will never happen again, I wont let anyone in again, ever. Quote.
So I am lost. I feel so hurt over losing him. I feel so bad that I can't just feel sorry for him but I feel so angry. I don't think I can be his friend but that's not fair either. He has nobody, tons of friends but no close ones. I don't want to abandon him. But I am devastated. I had to call off work today. And did I mention that we work together closely. So now there goes a 13 year friendship, a good work relationship, a love and a lover because he said four words.

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#453484 - 11/13/13 10:53 AM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: christie1013]
Robert1000 Offline


Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 336
Good luck, Christie. You're worth it. You deserve a partner who appreciates you for who you are. I want you to know how much I admire you for standing up for yourself. Don't write off this guy, unless you need to for yourself. People change. People evolve and grow. I'll keep you in my prayers.
Bob

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#453501 - 11/13/13 01:47 PM Re: Is it possible for him to recover without therapy? [Re: Robert1000]
christie1013 Offline


Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 31
Bob, I dont think i have any choice to write off the relationship and its really very very heartbreaking. He is not going to get help. I thought maybe the loss of our friendship would spur him more than the loss of our love relationship.His Ex remains friends with him. Not close friends but enough that maybe that he thinks that she is still "around" that he didn't really lose anything. He has said to me that I am not really losing him, that I will see him everyday and he thinks we can be great friends. WTF? I am still looking at him the way a person does when they adore you and are very attracted to you and he looks at me like I am his aunt. Funny he says that I am so sexy and he would have to be nuts not to want to be intimate with me but since i am the aunt and all....And he doesn't think that this is something he can get over with help. It didn't work wiht the EX so why now?????

I need some help though. The therapist cannot see me until close to Thanksgiving and I am really struggling with decisions that I am making. I would love to be his friend but emotionally i dont think i can. We can't go back to that friendship we had where he could talk about dating and what not. How can i not look at him sexually after what we had together.But the biggest thing is that i am so pissed that this wasnt enough for him to realize he needs help. How can you tell a person that you can't replace them and won't let anyone in ever again and not think that you need help.

Its selfish i think.Even if therapy wouldn't have brought us back together, i would be his friend and support him becuase he tried. Because i realize from reading here what a long road it is. I feel tortured.I feel like I am deserting some sad little boy who really needs me even though he won't admit to it. He doesn't need anyone, i see it in how he lives each day but that's not really the truth. i told him he could trust me. I dont want to abandon him.

Every little thing makes me miss him horribly. If i try to be his friend does that mean i am enabling him to continue down this path of denial? i just don't know that there is any hope. He can totally detach himself emotionally at a moments notice. I see it right now. I see it with his mother. She wrote him a letter two months ago and he has not read it but yet he hasn't thrown it away either. Who can do that????

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